Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

Bastet · January 19

I've always pronounced it zo-ology. As for how I've heard others pronounce it, it's a pretty even split between zo and zoo (that's a small sample of people, as it's not a word I hear frequently).

Edited January 19 by Bastet

SoMuchTV · January 19

2 minutes ago, Bastet said:

I've always pronounced it zo-ology. As for how I've heard others pronounce it, it's a pretty even split between zo and zoo (that's a small sample of people, as it's not a word I hear frequently).

Good point. And as infrequently as I hear it, I say it even less frequently. Yet here we are.

My original post was prompted by a podcast I listened to recently, where one cohost pronounced it one way, and one the other.

shapeshifter · January 19

49 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

I work with many zoologists and they all pronounce it zoo-ology.

Are they in a particular geographic area?

Ancaster · January 19

On 1/18/2024 at 12:26 PM, annzeepark914 said:

😁 Thank you for including "whilst". For some reason, it always causes me to silently chuckle whenever I read or hear that word. But my favorite Brit word is "chuffed". I like the look of the word and the sound of it when spoken. I just wish it were used in the US as I'd love to say it.

Use it whenever you can! People will love it. Make it a new word in your circles where it doesn't have a negative connotation or isn't a celeb generated portmanteau with a three-month shelf life (Hello Bennifer).

It's been shown that slang, buzzwords, neologisms, etc, spread around the world and have been embraced by way of who knows what mysterious paths well before Al Gore invented the Internet. And using "whilst" correctly means there's hope for that word too.

For personal reasons, I want to see chuffed as 2024's Word of the Year. On a few rare occasions, my late, died-in-the-wool Yorkshireman father would refer to me as Chuffa.* I don't know where it came from, but in a family/world where personal pet names were a rare event, even reading your post brings tears to my eyes. (Readers and watchers of All Creature Great and Small will get this.)

All this to say, let's celebrate and make an effort to expose more people to the potential of a rich language. Keep it alive, broaden people's vocabulary and make chuffa a beloved word. The lowest common denominator shouldn't be a thing.

* Not Chuffer because the "r" is silent if Brit Speak!

Edited January 20 by Ancaster
Not a neologism, just new to some. extra edit because of embarrassing grammatical mistake.

Bastet · January 19

I, too, like the word chuffed, but for some reason the handful of other Americans I've seen/heard use it have sometimes used it to mean the exact opposite -- they'd say they were chuffed about something when they were ticked off about it! (It reminds me of the more widespread usage of nonplussed to mean, as Jose Chung said in The X-Files, non-nonplussed.)

shapeshifter · January 19

8 hours ago, Bastet said:

I, too, like the word chuffed, but for some reason the handful of other Americans I've seen/heard use it have sometimes used it to mean the exact opposite -- they'd say they were chuffed about something when they were ticked off about it! (It reminds me of the more widespread usage of nonplussed to mean, as Jose Chung said in The X-Files, non-nonplussed.)

Ah ha! That must be why I loathe to hear it used except maybe by Brits.

Browncoat · January 19

8 hours ago, Bastet said:

they'd say they were chuffed about something when they were ticked off about it!

Could it be because it sounds similar to huffy? I also like chuffed, and may or may not have used it (correctly!) on occasion.

ABay · January 19

Confusing chuffed with chafed, maybe?

annzeepark914 · January 19

The few times I've heard "chuffed" on TV or read it in a British (mystery) book, or in an interview, the person saying it was a bit upset, annoyed, irritated about something. I'm hesitant to use this word as it's a *very* British word (like "whilst" 😁).

Quof · January 19

You need to watch proper British television, like Coronation Street, or British comedians like Sarah Millican, Jimmy Carr, Greg Davies, John Bishop, in order to feel comfortable with the slang. Chuffed = happy (maybe a little embarrassed or humbled, too). Always.

annzeepark914 · January 19

I was ever so chuffed whilst reading all the interesting posts on this topic. So I looked up the word chuffed and discovered this:

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/114209/chuffed-happy-or-unhappy

shapeshifter · January 19

9 minutes ago, annzeepark914 said:

I was ever so chuffed whilst reading all the interesting posts on this topic. So I looked up the word chuffed and discovered this:

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/114209/chuffed-happy-or-unhappy

So it’s like the descriptor bad.

StatisticalOutlier · January 19

On 1/18/2024 at 2:07 PM, Browncoat said:

I am a biologist, and have always pronounced it zo-ology. Zoo-ology would be the study of zoos.

I'm kind of a hybrid. I took Zoology for Non-Majors at the University of Texas. I always pronounced it zoe-ology, but also thought the class would be about animals. It turned out to be one slide after another of chromosomes with a nick in them or something, and nothing about elephants or zebras.

The only thing I remember from that class is a condition called Cri du Chat, which makes afflicted people cry like a cat. It was also the first French I ever learned.

And another Texas homophone I was just reminded of. Hill and heel, which might be a double homophone? I had a Jazzercise teacher who would say, when we were jumping, "Make sure your hills come all the way down." While a rancher would be likely to say, "My property extends past those heels out there."

Ancaster · January 20

6 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

I'm kind of a hybrid. I took Zoology for Non-Majors at the University of Texas. I always pronounced it zoe-ology, but also thought the class would be about animals. It turned out to be one slide after another of chromosomes with a nick in them or something, and nothing about elephants or zebras.

The only thing I remember from that class is a condition called Cri du Chat, which makes afflicted people cry like a cat. It was also the first French I ever learned.

And another Texas homophone I was just reminded of. Hill and heel, which might be a double homophone? I had a Jazzercise teacher who would say, when we were jumping, "Make sure your hills come all the way down." While a rancher would be likely to say, "My property extends past those heels out there."

Applause for the best post of the day, and will you now please take on the Mary, merry, marry debate? Pretty please?

SoMuchTV · January 20

57 minutes ago, Ancaster said:

Applause for the best post of the day, and will you now please take on the Mary, merry, marry debate? Pretty please?

Oh please no! That poor horse has been beaten to a pulp!

Just let Mary marry in a merry celebration with her attendants Erin, Aaron, Don, and Dawn, while we pin our pens to the guestbook and don our heels to head for the hills.

Edited January 20 by SoMuchTV
Sorry I just can’t help myself

Ancaster · January 20

23 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

The few times I've heard "chuffed" on TV or read it in a British (mystery) book, or in an interview, the person saying it was a bit upset, annoyed, irritated about something. I'm hesitant to use this word as it's a *very* British word (like "whilst" 😁).

I'm not sure what you've been watching/ reading, but chuffed is a beautifully descriptive word that should be used whenever possible and fitting. It's a positive adjective, not something to be used to describe you if you're "a bit upset, annoyed, irritated about something".

Use it, love it, ignore your friends and family when they turn their noses up. We need to expand our vocabularies!

I realised I should give an example or two!

"I couldn't have been more chuffed than seeing my son win the spelling prize."

"I was so chuffed that my estranged sister turned up at my wedding I almost wet my knickers."

Edited January 20 by Ancaster
Add example

shapeshifter · January 20

35 minutes ago, Ancaster said:

"I was so chuffed that my estranged sister turned up at my wedding I almost wet my knickers."

This is a perfect example of why I do not like the word. It's almost always used in an ambiguous way — except by Brits.
So Brits are permitted to use it.

EtheltoTillie · January 20

7 hours ago, Ancaster said:

"I was so chuffed that my estranged sister turned up at my wedding I almost wet my knickers."

I see what you did there. . .

Please explain why Brits say “aluminium.” It’s the equivalent of too many Os in zoology. They don’t spell it that way. It’s not like the US/UK spelling differences (favor/favour).

Anela · January 20

7 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

I see what you did there. . .

Please explain why Brits say “aluminium.” It’s the equivalent of too many Os in zoology. They don’t spell it that way. It’s not like the US/UK spelling differences (favor/favour).

I don't know why we say it that way. I still do, and dad says a-loo-mi-num. We do spell it that way (with an extra "i").

haha, I say "whilst", too. Someone used to take the mickey out of my "wot". My mum would also jokingly say, W. O. T. WOT.

I had to look up the origin of taking the mick:

Quote

"Take the mickey" may be an abbreviated form of the Cockney rhyming slang "take the Mickey Bliss", a euphemism for "take the piss." It has also been suggested that "mickey" is a contraction of "micturition," in which case "take the micturition" would be a synonymous euphemism for "take the piss."

Edited January 20 by Anela

EtheltoTillie · January 20

@Anela I'm so relieved to know that the British spelling of aluminum is actually different. I can accept that somehow a different spelling and pronunciation evolved, instead of just adding sounds where letters don't exist. Very interesting.

Edited January 20 by EtheltoTillie

supposebly · January 20

Etymology of the word and its pronunciation.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/aluminium#etymonline_v_26091

Btw, it's also aluminium in German with similar pronunciation.

Edited January 20 by supposebly

annzeepark914 · January 20

4 hours ago, Anela said:

haha, I say "whilst", too. Someone used to take the mickey out of my "wot". My mum would also jokingly say, W. O. T. WOT.

I had to look up the origin of taking the mick:

Wut? 😁 I guess this is the American (hick) version of wot. Love using "wut?" in response to condescending posts under articles in the Washington Post.

SweetieDarling · January 20

7 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

Wut? 😁 I guess this is the American (hick) version of wot. Love using "wut?" in response to condescending posts under articles in the Washington Post.

There is a PBS station in the DC area- Howard University Television; WHUT. I can't help but laugh every time I see it. I read it out loud. WHUT?

annzeepark914 · January 20

34 minutes ago, SweetieDarling said:

There is a PBS station in the DC area- Howard University Television; WHUT. I can't help but laugh every time I see it. I read it out loud. WHUT?

I never really noticed this before...funny!! What's amazing is that we have at least 3 PBS stations here: WMPT, WETA, and WHUT. When we first moved here, there were 4.

SoMuchTV · January 20

16 minutes ago, annzeepark914 said:

I never really noticed this before...funny!! What's amazing is that we have at least 3 PBS stations here: WMPT, WETA, and WHUT. When we first moved here, there were 4.

Wait, is WAMU no longer a thing? I don’t live there, but drive through a few times a year to visit family, and that was usually what I found for my Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me fix. (I guess we tend to make the trip on the same day/time.)

whoops, I think y’all are talking about tv and I’m thinking radio. Never mind!

Edited January 20 by SoMuchTV
D’oh

Anela · January 23

On 1/20/2024 at 10:57 AM, annzeepark914 said:

Wut? 😁 I guess this is the American (hick) version of wot. Love using "wut?" in response to condescending posts under articles in the Washington Post.

I thought it was just my London-area accent, but I lived in the same areas as my mum.

Sunday morning, my dad was waiting to get into the warehouse, and texted me, asking what "crikey" meant. he was listening to British people on the radio, and he couldn't remember. Auto-correct replaced it with "Cricket" so I told him that was a really dull game. He then sent me the correct word. Crikey, is like a small "wtf". Like blimey. It amused me, after I'd been in this thread, and seen the posts about "chuffed".

annzeepark914 · January 24

https://www.basbleu.com/WD7802.html

A helpful guide for Americans traveling to Great Britain.

Edited January 24 by annzeepark914

StatisticalOutlier · January 24

I identify as a pedant when it comes to proper use of "disinterested." I acknowledge we're losing that battle, but I was still surprised at this:

"So many movies are either mindless or completely disinterested with engaging the intellect of their audiences that 'Freud’s Last Session' offers a welcome bit of brain stimulation..."

https://variety.com/2023/film/reviews/freuds-last-session-review-anthony-hopkins-1235771657/

As if "disinterested" isn't wrong enough, he says "disinterested with"? Jesus.

TattleTeeny · January 27

2 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

So did they really misspell the word Brussels?

At an old job, our kitchen signs frequently said ""DONOT" -- not "don't," not "do not," but "DONOT."

We also had this gem (that I may have posted here a long time ago) on the refrigerator, which, on top of punctuation and font abuse, makes almost no sense at all.

Edited January 27 by TattleTeeny

RealHousewife · February 11

Constant usage of like, um, and you know.

annzeepark914 · February 11

1 hour ago, RealHousewife said:

Constant usage of like, um, and you know.

All three drive me up the proverbial wall 🤬. When I hear it on TV, I yell, "Hey...just pause and *then* continue speaking!"

Ancaster · February 12

2 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Constant usage of like, um, and you know.

My ex used to say "like" literally every other word (and I mean literally). He denied it, so one time my kid held up fingers for every time he said it. He ran out of fingers very quickly. It's one of those awful habits that once you notice it you can't un-notice it.

Katy M · February 12

I broke myself of the "like" habit, but then started working with someone who said it a lot, and bam, I'm back saying it a lot. I'm trying to break myself of it again.

PRgal · February 12

1 hour ago, Ancaster said:

My ex used to say "like" literally every other word (and I mean literally). He denied it, so one time my kid held up fingers for every time he said it. He ran out of fingers very quickly. It's one of those awful habits that once you notice it you can't un-notice it.

I didn’t think “like” was used by males all that much.

Ancaster · February 12

5 hours ago, PRgal said:

I didn’t think “like” was used by males all that much.

I'll introduce you if you like . . . .

oliviabenson · February 12

7 hours ago, Ancaster said:

I'll introduce you if you like . . . .

Hi I’m Tommy and I use LIKE like a lot!

praeceptrix · February 22

Maybe you brilliant and observant folks can help identify something which is driving me crazy. I am listening to an audio book narrated by the author. He has a weirdly stilted but enthusiastic style of narration, not quite maddening enough to make me give up on it. Yet. My biggest issue is that he pronounces daughter as dorter. He also says warters for waters.

Whence comes this pronunciation? Is it a regional dialect?

Thanks for your assistance!

shapeshifter · February 22

10 minutes ago, praeceptrix said:

Maybe you brilliant and observant folks can help identify something which is driving me crazy. I am listening to an audio book narrated by the author. He has a weirdly stilted but enthusiastic style of narration, not quite maddening enough to make me give up on it. Yet. My biggest issue is that he pronounces daughter as dorter. He also says warters for waters.

Whence comes this pronunciation? Is it a regional dialect?

Thanks for your assistance!

Wild guess: One of the UK dialects.
You might be able to identify the narrator's name?

praeceptrix · February 22

35 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Wild guess: One of the UK dialects.
You might be able to identify the narrator's name?

Definitely American, not British. The author is Donald Bogle.

shapeshifter · February 22

25 minutes ago, praeceptrix said:

Definitely American, not British. The author is Donald Bogle.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_English

Mondrianyone · February 22

Very common pronunciation of people from New Jersey. Brad Leone, one of the chefs in the Bon Appétit videos, was always being teased about saying "warder" for "water." I'm guessing there's a lot of overlap between Philly and bordering parts of Jersey.

Also, I just read the post above about "disinterested." The usage note in Webster's Collegiate disagrees about which meaning came first for which word, "dis-" and "un-". Too boring to go into here, but anyone who's actually interested might want to give it a read.

Oy, it occurs to me not everyone has access. Here's the note, thank me later:

Disinterested and uninterested have a tangled history. Uninterested originally meant impartial, but this sense fell into disuse during the 18th century. About the same time the original sense of disinterested also disappeared, with uninterested developing a new sense*the present meaning*to take its place. The original sense of uninterested is still out of use, but the original sense of disinterested revived in the early 20th century. The revival has since been under frequent attack as an illiteracy and a blurring or loss of a useful distinction. Actual usage shows otherwise. Sense 2 of disinterested is still its most frequent sense, especially in edited prose; it shows no sign of vanishing. A careful writer may choose sense 1a of disinterested in preference to uninterested for emphasis *teaching the letters of the alphabet to her wiggling and supremely disinterested little daughter — C. L. Sulzberger*. Further, disinterested has developed a sense (1b), perhaps influenced by sense 1 of the prefix dis-, that contrasts with uninterested *when I grow tired or disinterested in anything, I experience a disgust — Jack London (letter, 1914)*. Still, use of senses 1a and 1b will incur the disapproval of some who may not fully appreciate the history of this word or the subtleties of its present use.

Edited February 22 by Mondrianyone
to make people's eyes glaze over

praeceptrix · February 22

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_English

Thank you! Dunno why it didn't occur to me to Google the author. Duh.

Browncoat · February 23

3 hours ago, praeceptrix said:

My biggest issue is that he pronounces daughter as dorter. He also says warters for waters.

Whence comes this pronunciation? Is it a regional dialect?

I've known people from the Baltimore area who have those pronunciations.

EtheltoTillie · February 24

Back to those words you only read and weren’t sure about pronunciation.
I used to think the word hedgerows was pronounced head-ge-rows.

🤣

🤦‍♀️

Anduin · February 25

Okay, I'm not sure about a word. The past tense of to make a prophecy. Prophecised? There's prophesied, but it just doesn't look right to me.

Mondrianyone · February 25

22 minutes ago, Anduin said:

There's prophesied, but it just doesn't look right to me.

It's right.

Anduin · February 25

31 minutes ago, Mondrianyone said:

It's right.

I suppose it'll have to do.

Milburn Stone · February 25

You could always go with "predicted" if you can't screw up your courage.

ECM1231 · February 28

Love this one b/c I cringe every time I hear of instead of have.

Bastet · February 28

4 hours ago, ECM1231 said:

Love this one b/c I cringe every time I hear of instead of have.

I don't hear it, but I go ape shit when I see it written.

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