Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[Haleth]

Not a grammar error, but the very young news reader on the local noon broadcast pronounced Sinai as sin-EYE.  Where do they find these kids?

[Zella]

4 hours ago, Haleth said:

Not a grammar error, but the very young news reader on the local noon broadcast pronounced Sinai as sin-EYE.  Where do they find these kids?

Haha When I was in college, my roommate's dad took us out to eat, and the restaurant had a card you could fill out of where you were from. Her dad wrote "Chaos" because he was a smartass. The poor kid who was our server took one look at it, thought about it real hard for about a minute, and said "Chowse? Where is that?" We all just died inside. 

[Leeds]

"Today I made for you."

I realise I watch too many cooking shows, but this really irritates me.  Whatever happened to "I made"?

[meowmommy]

9 hours ago, Leeds said:

"Today I made for you."

I realise I watch too many cooking shows, but this really irritates me.  Whatever happened to "I made"?

Considering the critiques offered to some cheftestants, perhaps it's important to clarify that the food was cooked today and not three years ago.

[Quof]

I often confound servers when I ask "In whose home was this dish prepared?" Puzzled look.  Me: "I believe you meant to say it was "made in house"". 

[Milburn Stone]

5 minutes ago, Quof said:

I often confound servers when I ask "In whose home was this dish prepared?" Puzzled look.  Me: "I believe you meant to say it was "made in house"". 

I hear you, but that leads down a terrible road to the restaurant word "house-made" (used only in the finest establishments) which is pretentious beyond belief. For that reason I prefer home-made, even though it's less accurate.

[Quof]

Coincidentally, one of my favourite restaurants just posted on their social media about a new dish that is "made in house".  I think I may show my appreciation by having lunch there tomorrow. 

[Milburn Stone]

When it comes just to me and the missus, we'd rather eat in a diner that has "home-made" apple pie (even if it's a lie) than a high-end restaurant that has "house-made" aioli (even if it's the truth).

[Browncoat]

I was reading a listicle on msn earlier today about the best movie musicals.  Of course, Mary Poppins and Bye, Bye, Birdie were on the list, as they should be.  But, in the blurb, talking about the actor in those movies, his name was written as d*** Van Dyke.  It cracked me up that "Dick" would be censored when it's the man's name!  Context matters!  

[Ohiopirate02]

22 minutes ago, Browncoat said:

I was reading a listicle on msn earlier today about the best movie musicals.  Of course, Mary Poppins and Bye, Bye, Birdie were on the list, as they should be.  But, in the blurb, talking about the actor in those movies, his name was written as d*** Van Dyke.  It cracked me up that "Dick" would be censored when it's the man's name!  Context matters!  

I used to frequent a makeup board where you had to refer to makeup artist Dick Page as D!ck if you wanted your post to show.  Computers just cannot handle context.

[Annber03]

2 hours ago, Browncoat said:

I was reading a listicle on msn earlier today about the best movie musicals.  Of course, Mary Poppins and Bye, Bye, Birdie were on the list, as they should be.  But, in the blurb, talking about the actor in those movies, his name was written as d*** Van Dyke.  It cracked me up that "Dick" would be censored when it's the man's name!  Context matters!  

I remember seeing a "Family Guy" episode that made a joke about that once-they were mocking the FCC and extreme censorship (I want to say this may have been not long after the whole outcry over Janet Jackson at the Super Bowl?), and there was a scene of someone watching "Dick Van Dyke", only they had the announcer say, "Next up, it's The *Beep* Van *Beep" Show!"

[SuprSuprElevated]

11 hours ago, Annber03 said:

it's The *Beep* Van *Beep" Show!"

Yeah, the man's name is one big ol' cancel waiting to happen isn't it?

[AimingforYoko]

The 11 common grammar mistakes that make people cringe...and make you look less smart.

I think the only one not discussed on this forum is the Everyday/Every Day one.

[Milburn Stone]

I haven't clicked the link, but I know I like the premise. ("Make you look less smart.") I've never had a beef with the grammar "relativists" (I'm sure there's a more precise term) who say grammar is always evolving and folks used to use "they/their/them" for the singular pronoun in the 16th century, blah blah blah. I'm sure that's true! The point is, in our time, in our place, violating the rules of grammar accepted by our elite makes you look dumb. Unless you like looking dumb--with all the limitations on your earning power that this would impose--learn the rules of grammar.

[meowmommy]

18 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

The 11 common grammar mistakes that make people cringe...and make you look less smart.

I think the only one not discussed on this forum is the Everyday/Every Day one.

Interesting that the article focused on grammar mistakes that irritate bosses, yet my experience in the workplace was that supervisors were often the worst grammatical offenders.

And (I know, never start a sentence with a conjunction!), I marvel as always that certain mistakes in grammar are so common.  How do so many people choose to make the exact same error?

[Zella]

7 hours ago, meowmommy said:

yet my experience in the workplace was that supervisors were often the worst grammatical offenders.

Same! And as the resident English major, I either got to edit all their terrible emails before they sent them to someone or they would have a complex about me editing their terrible emails and would deliberately pick someone with worse grammar than they had to edit their terrible emails. Just spite the nose right off your face, boss!

The only times I had supervisors who had really good grammar and didn't need editing assistance was when I was still in college and employed by either the English department or a writing center.  

[shapeshifter]

From the Jeopardy Small Talk thread:

A malapropism walks into a bar, looking for all intensive purposes like a wolf in cheap clothing, muttering epitaphs and casting dispersions on his magnificent other, who takes him for granite.

[Leeds]

A few days ago I contacted Le Gavroche, a fancy London restaurant, because of a couple of linguistic errors on their website.  I checked it out today, no changes.  A (genuine) greengrocer's apostrophe is one thing, but I expect grammatical accuracy from a restaurant with a $250 a head prix fixe menu.

"We have done a great deal to become Covid-secure and I can insure you that Le Gavroche is a safe place to enjoy."
 

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, Leeds said:

"We have done a great deal to become Covid-secure and I can insure you that Le Gavroche is a safe place to enjoy."

Signed “Michel Roux Jr.” (https://www.le-gavroche.co.uk/covid19). It seems Junior has an insurance business on the side —possibly a smart move for a restaurateur during a pandemic? 🤣

[shapeshifter]

[Leeds]

"Vinegarette".  No.  Wrong, wrong, wrong.

[ABay]

"New Haven and 'Emerge' will provide work for formally incarcerated people."

Formally incarcerated as opposed to casually jailed, like they just sauntered in one day and didn't leave? Is dinner black tie or white tie?

Edited August 13, 2021 by ABay

[janie jones]

It's not "formerly"?

[ABay]

It should say formerly.

[Leeds]

Does anyone else hate the use of "pop" on TV as much as I do?  "Pop of flavour", "Pop of taste",  "Pop of colour". 

How about I pop you on the nose if you use this unimaginative descriptor again?

[Leeds]

"Critic’s Notebook: A ‘Jeopardy!’ Host Search So Blundered It Almost Feels Intentional."

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/mike-richards-jeopardy-hosting-debacle-critics-notebook-1235000610/

"Blundered"?  Where do they find these "writers"?

[legaleagle53]

On 8/23/2021 at 6:26 PM, Leeds said:

"Critic’s Notebook: A ‘Jeopardy!’ Host Search So Blundered It Almost Feels Intentional."

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/mike-richards-jeopardy-hosting-debacle-critics-notebook-1235000610/

"Blundered"?  Where do they find these "writers"?

The usage is correct. "Blunder" has been in use as a verb since the 14th century. In fact,  it wasn't used as a noun at all until 1681.

[shapeshifter]

On 8/23/2021 at 9:26 PM, Leeds said:

"Critic’s Notebook: A ‘Jeopardy!’ Host Search So Blundered It Almost Feels Intentional."

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/mike-richards-jeopardy-hosting-debacle-critics-notebook-1235000610/

"Blundered"?  Where do they find these "writers"?

1 hour ago, legaleagle53 said:

The usage is correct. "Blunder" has been in use as a verb since the 14th century. In fact,  it wasn't used as a noun at all until 1681.

Alas and alack, the OED page for blunder is too lengthy for me to parse at this moment. 
Still, a cursory view does not reveal an example matching the use above, in which "blundered" seems more of an adjective than a verb--although it isn't. 
Maybe it's not wrong, but it's a little awkward. Still, I give credit for an attention-getting headline that gets to the point, and "blunder" does indeed describe what's going on vis-à-vis Jeopardy! and Sony.

Edited August 27, 2021 by shapeshifter

[legaleagle53]

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Still, a cursory view does not reveal an example matching the use above, in which "blundered" seems more of an adjective than a verb--although it isn't. 

It works if you remember that verbs have participles, and this is an example of a past passive participle. But yes, it probably could have been written better.

[shapeshifter]

Just a little something to share with the class:   
https://www.merriam-webster.com/video/what-is-semantic-bleaching

[shapeshifter]

Another example of when commas and their placement might be important:

[ABay]

Although...if you put a comma after elephants, it still looks like you're addressing the elephants. Maybe not using all caps would allow space for a few extra clarifying words.

[SVNBob]

Just needs a couple periods; one after both the first and the last word.

[shapeshifter]

38 minutes ago, SVNBob said:

Just needs a couple periods; one after both the first and the last word.

48 minutes ago, ABay said:

Although...if you put a comma after elephants, it still looks like you're addressing the elephants.…

Yes, @SVNBob, a period/stop after “Elephants” is probably the best solution.

A question mark or an exclamation point just increase the hilarity, and a colon is not better than a comma. 

[Milburn Stone]

There's no telling the number of drivers who were crushed to death because they thought only elephant motorists were being addressed!

[SoMuchTV]

9 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

There's no telling the number of drivers who were crushed to death because they thought only elephant motorists were being addressed!

Or because they were trying to parse the message?  “Elephants, please? Stay in car.”   So, if I want to politely request elephants, I should stay in my car and wait for them?  Like we’re at the elephant drive thru window?

ooh, or, we’re at the drive in elephant brothel. Elephants please!  Stay in car!

Edited September 18, 2021 by SoMuchTV

[Lugal]

That's not a grammar problem, it's a design problem.

[shapeshifter]

3 minutes ago, Lugal said:

That's not a grammar problem, it's a design problem.

Yes. But I was unable to come up with a better design.
I tried. But now it looks like the message is: Get out of your car, quick!
(even with adding a period as per @SVNBob)

[Zella]

I think it would be clearer if it was basically a sign with an elephant on it (the elephant version of a deer crossing sign) and then the words "stay in car."

But a part of me just wants it to say "Elephants. Stay in car." Not for clarity but because the periods make it seem so blase about it. 

[Milburn Stone]

31 minutes ago, Zella said:

But a part of me just wants it to say "Elephants. Stay in car." Not for clarity but because the periods make it seem so blase about it. 

Or to be more trendy, "Elephants. Stay. In. Car."

[ABay]

Maybe staying in the car isn't such a great idea after all.

 

[SoMuchTV]

Okay, serious question here, because maybe I've been under a rock and missed a memo, but is "cringe" now an adjective?  It seems like every day, I see a  post here saying "that dress was so cringe" or "that situation was cringe" in cases where I might say "cringeworthy" or "cringe-inducing" or "made me cringe".  Is this just something else like "verse" instead of "versus" where I'll just have to pull down my shades and ignore those kids on my lawn?

Edited September 27, 2021 by SoMuchTV
Fixing typo that I couldn't see until someone else quoted it.

[SoMuchTV]

On 3/12/2021 at 10:43 AM, Browncoat said:

I was reading a listicle on msn earlier today about the best movie musicals.  Of course, Mary Poppins and Bye, Bye, Birdie were on the list, as they should be.  But, in the blurb, talking about the actor in those movies, his name was written as d*** Van Dyke.  It cracked me up that "Dick" would be censored when it's the man's name!  Context matters!  

Just catching up with some of the old posts here. Another forum I frequent has no problem with his first name, but *’s out his last. I have a major peeve with sites that don’t have some form of human intervention for things like, maybe, peoples’ actual names!

[Dancing Queen]

On 9/20/2021 at 6:34 PM, SoMuchTV said:

Okay, serious question here, because maybe I've been under a rock and missed a memo, but it "cringe" now an adjective?  It seems like every day, I see a  post here saying "that dress was so cringe" or "that situation was cringe" in cases where I might say "cringeworthy" or "cringe-inducing" or "made me cringe".  Is this just something else like "verse" instead of "versus" where I'll just have to pull down my shades and ignore those kids on my lawn?

I just saw "cringe" used as an adjective in another Primetimer thread, and it definitely caught me off guard.

Full disclosure:  I've been known to say "cringey" instead of "cringe-inducing" or "cringeworthy."  "Cringey" is a made-up word that at least is recognizable in my mind, in spelling and function, as an adjective.  I wouldn't use it in writing, but would say it in casual conversation if my brain couldn't find the correct word.

However, using the verb "cringe" as an adjective sets my teeth on edge.  Apparently, I would prefer that people make up new words that function "correctly" rather than misuse existing words. 

*ducks rotten tomatoes because this is a tough crowd*

[Blergh]

On 3/12/2021 at 9:43 AM, Browncoat said:

I was reading a listicle on msn earlier today about the best movie musicals.  Of course, Mary Poppins and Bye, Bye, Birdie were on the list, as they should be.  But, in the blurb, talking about the actor in those movies, his name was written as d*** Van Dyke.  It cracked me up that "Dick" would be censored when it's the man's name!  Context matters!  

This looks to be as good a spot as any to tale this tale:

Back in 1961, after Your Show of Shows alum/writer Carl Reiner had attempted to produce and star in a semi-autobiographic  pilot about having been a television comedy writer while juggling family life  called Head of the Family and CBS passed on it, he reworked it(and recast the lead). Anyway, it got retooled with a rather unknown performer as the lead which it was named for   and became the now-iconic Dick Van Dyke Show.

At that point, Mr. Van Dyke was so obscure that when Mr. Reiner offered the role of the sarcastically wisecracking but golden-hearted woman comedy writer colleague to the prolific singer and actress Rose Marie, she herself would recall her reaction as, "What's a dick van dyke?"

[Milburn Stone]

14 hours ago, Dancing Queen said:

...using the verb "cringe" as an adjective sets my teeth on edge.

Doesn't bother me, and I think I know why. The popularity of cringe as a verb is so recent. (I didn't say the existence of cringe as a verb, I said the popularity of it.) The explosion of cringe happened in sync with Curb Your Enthusiasm and The Office, two popular shows that pretty much defined "cringeworthy comedy." Since cringe evolved into its present widespread usage less than 20 years ago, I can't get exercised about it evolving so soon again.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Milburn Stone

[Blergh]

IMO, current usage of cringe (on TV and Real Life) beats the slang usage of 'sick' substituting for 'great, awesome,terrific,etc. '!  How I wish that latter slang would go the way of 'jive' and 'right on' ASAP! 

[Bastet]

55 minutes ago, Blergh said:

the slang usage of 'sick' substituting for 'great, awesome,terrific,etc. '!  How I wish that latter slang would go the way of 'jive' and 'right on' ASAP! 

Didn't that happen already?  Widespread American usage of "sick" in that way seems like an '80s thing to me (and was perhaps most common then in skater culture), steadily declining in national prevalence.  Bad meaning good has a long history in counter culture, particularly Black culture - as do "jive" and "right on" - often originating in jazz culture.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Bastet

[Blergh]

No, @Bastet,'sick' (used to mean 'great, awesome, wonderful,cool,') seems to be used by many folks wanting others to think they're under 40 these days- though not so much in the Southeast US as in other parts of the English-speaking world. 

OTOH, I feel gratified to know that I lived to see once the once popular terms of 'jive' and 'right on' become outdated and rarely used by those under 60 so I hope to have that happen re 'sick' before too many more decades. 

[shapeshifter]

Until the pop culture meaning of a term has taken on a completely new meaning (e.g., “straight” now refers to gender identity rather than a propensity to NOT smoke cannabis) I think there is always a chance the term may reappear.
I keep wondering if “sharp” or “keen” might surface again.

Actually, I think “sharp dresser” is still used. But not just “sharp” alone as an opinion of something’s cultural value?

Edited September 28, 2021 by shapeshifter
NOT