S03.E09: Part Nine - Vox

[Prevailing Wind]

1 hour ago, Cattoy said:

Someone should have listened to Bones McCoy.

Even earlier, on Archer's Enterprise, Hoshi Sato expressed concerns.

[greekmom]

2 minutes ago, rtms77 said:

Word! Again this season should have revolved around 7 and Picard, both being used without their knowledge. 7 should have been taken over  easily. There is no way 7 never knew about Locutus. I’m sure Starfleet studied her big time when Voyager got back. For that matter she took control of a Borg ship in season 1. This show is saying Borg are individual collectives , not one collective? Not to mention this is like the 4th or 5 th Borg Queen counting Jurati who seems to have also completely missed this whole plan of the Borg. For a connected collective, no Borg seem to talk to each other. 

Even Hugh should have and could have told Picard seeing that he knew him as Loctus.

Writers failed again.

[Prevailing Wind]

2 hours ago, FloatOn said:

For a show obsessed with legacy, you'd think they'd want to show that Riker and Troi's legacy didn't die with the son, but I guess I forgot that only sons are important in Star Trek.

I think the writer(s) have serious sibling issues with their sisters.

 

[dovegrey]

58 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Wasn't there a detente between the Borg and the Federation at the end of last season of Picard? What happened to it? Or Queen Agnes and her drive for a new collective that was based on only voluntary membership in the Collective?

Come to think of it, wasn't there some mutual threat that got the Borg to call for Picard specifically that season? What happened to it?

That was just basically one independent cube that Agnes controlled after being assimilated by a Queen from a different timeline who had been cut off from the Collective. The regular Borg from TNG and Voyager had nothing to do with season two and were not involved in Agnes’ friendly idea to only assimilate “willing” people at their lowest point in life (how kind).

But I’d very much like if that big threat at the end of season two and the “alliance” with the Agnes Collective was a sham to set up for this story - and in the hundred of years between 2024 and now, she reunified with Borg Proper, helped them rebuild after Voyager Endgame (essentially took the place of the Queen that Janeway killed), and then arranged all this. Agnes would have the knowledge.

Edited April 13, 2023 by dovegrey

[Prevailing Wind]

1 hour ago, Cattoy said:

How could no one detect the anomalous DNA in Picard?

Beverly DID, but she thought it was irumodic syndrome.

[PurpleTentacle]

1 hour ago, rtms77 said:

If Lower Decks is any indication, many do if they are gunning for command or trying to get promoted. 

I doubt anybody on lower decks is younger than 25. I think from the younger characters we've only seen Boimler on the bridge on regular assignment and he has to be pushing 30. Maybe 40, considering the prolonged human life and all that entails.

Also that is a California class. I assume on other classes it will take even longer to work yourself up to the bridge.

1 hour ago, Cattoy said:

How could no one detect the anomalous DNA in Picard? You have transporters that reassemble people at a subatomic level. You can alter someone to appear as another species. The genetic modifications necessary to make different species' hybrids have been around since TOS. They have the ability to genetically modify humans after birth. That just doesn't make any sense that no one could detect the changes the Borg made.

But it was 25 years ago! That is basically the dark ages! The human genome had only been sequenced for a measly 360 years at that point!

52 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Wesley was supposed to be relatable to young people, and a lot of people I've talked to have cited him as an inspiration for going into the sciences, so he seemed to work with his target audience.

The audience they tried to target, teenage boys and young men, hated him, at least at the time. I think he landed with kids, since they wrote him about as maturely as a little boy.

So the writers completely failed in reaching their targeted audience, but hit another by accident.

I was a young boy at the time. I liked Wesley well enough, but didn't particularly love him either. As an old man I feel about the same about him. Still I think he was more of a moron than a genius.

3 minutes ago, Prevailing Wind said:

Beverly DID, but she thought it was irumodic syndrome.

Pretty sure that was about a problem in his brain, not his DNA. And was that diagnosed by Beverly?

[Cattoy]

4 minutes ago, Prevailing Wind said:

Beverly DID, but she thought it was irumodic syndrome.

She didn't detect the anomaly, but, as Picard described it, the side effects of the modification. It's like a modern doctor seeing someone is bleeding from every orifice and saying they need a shower, rather than they have some variety of hemorrhagic fever.

 

 

[Francie]

16 minutes ago, Prevailing Wind said:

I think the writer(s) have serious sibling issues with their sisters.

 

Mothers, too, considering how they depict the Beverly/Jack relationship and Deanna such a big meanie to Will by empathically trying to take away his pain (and what the hell was that even all about? You know what, nevermind. I don't want to know). Oh, and the nagging housewife thing from that one episode. And the whole recounting of the 17-second trip where Will was only worried about his "unborn son," and couldn't give a sh*t about whether his wife was in medical danger. 

Have I mentioned I hate this show with the heat of 10,000 nuns? 

One more week, and my characters are free:

 

[FloatOn]

20 minutes ago, Francie said:

Mothers, too, considering how they depict the Beverly/Jack relationship and Deanna such a big meanie to Will by empathically trying to take away his pain (and what the hell was that even all about? You know what, nevermind. I don't want to know). Oh, and the nagging housewife thing from that one episode. And the whole recounting of the 17-second trip where Will was only worried about his "unborn son," and couldn't give a sh*t about whether his wife was in medical danger. 

 

Don't forget how the La Forge sisters' whole personality is following Geordi around and talking about him 90% of the time. Or how Matalas said that they made Jack a boy because it was important for Picard to have a son and a legacy and that Soji would just have to represent Picard having a daughter like relationship with someone. Or how that stupid flashback scene of Riker and Troi was important because we needed to have a scene of Riker when he was a father....despite having a whole episode about that very topic in the first season. Guess it doesn't count since that was a daughter and the son we never even saw was way more important. Guess seeing Troi as a mother didn't matter though, right along with Riker seemingly being unconcerned if she was going to die or not during child birth. Or when Riker thought they were going to die and didn't seem to have any concern about his daughter and instead spent the whole episode monologuing about his son and worrying over Jack. Also, just everything about Jack and Beverly which is too long to even get into.

About Troi trying to heal his pain, didn't we spend the first five episodes of this season with Riker saying the issue was that he was feeling nothing after the son died and that effected Troi and that's why he left because he was hurting her? He even called and apologized to her. He said he was sorry, that it was his fault, and he was feeling things again. Then one she shows up, it's oh no actually Riker had just so many feelings and such a connection to the son that Troi tried to help him relieve the pain and it's actually all her fault cause I guess how dare she try to help and erase the son or whatever. So what was all that in the first part of the season about then?

[Chicago Redshirt]

49 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I doubt anybody on lower decks is younger than 25. I think from the younger characters we've only seen Boimler on the bridge on regular assignment and he has to be pushing 30. Maybe 40, considering the prolonged human life and all that entails.

Also that is a California class. I assume on other classes it will take even longer to work yourself up to the bridge.

If we are to expect that people graduate from Starfleet Academy generally at 21ish, there should be a crop of ensigns and a handful of lieutenants who would be 25 or less. The Cerritos was Tendi's first assignment, IIRC, so she was presumably 21 when we were first introduced to her and is presumably under 25 even as of the latest LD season. Boimler had just been to a handful of other planets as of the series premiere, so I would imagine that he was on the young side too, probably about 23 as of the series premiere and 25-26 as of the latest season. The only one of the four leads I would say is definitively over 25 as of the series premiere is Mariner, as she had a variety of assignments and ships that likely meant at least 5+ years of Starfleet service and because her classmate worked her way up to being a captain, which pragmatically speaking means at least 7-8 years between the ranks of ensign, lieutenant and commander first.

[Francie]

Just now, FloatOn said:

Don't forget how the La Forge sisters' whole personality is following Geordi around and talking about him 90% of the time

Yep. Except for the tiny part of one of their personalities was that she was bad at her job, so she earned the nickname “Crash.”

That oh-so-not-so-funny tidbit exemplifies the difference between TNG and whatever this show has been. When Riker first came on board Shaw’s ship, he made a very public joke about how Ensign LaForge was nicknamed crash. He publicly humiliated her in front of her colleagues.

Meanwhile, what drew me to TNG was how it exemplifies a professional work environment. Riker, along with Troi, was in charge of personnel. And while they occasionally teased Wesley while he was on the bridge, they never did so in a way that belittled his ability to perform the tasks of an ensign. Terry Matalas’s version of Riker caused him to take a cheap shot at someone beneath him in rank.  Rodenberry’s and Berman’s Riker would never have done that.

8 minutes ago, FloatOn said:

Or how Matalas said that they made Jack a boy because it was important for Picard to have a son and a legacy and that Soji would just have to represent Picard having a daughter like relationship with someone.

I still can't get over the scene from 17 Secons where Riker says to the at least 65-year-old Picard that he hopes Picard gets to enjoy parenthood some day. Ummm, the man is a senior citizen! Obviously he made his choice long ago to not, and that ship had sailed. Oh, but the plot. Think of the plot!

Sad to know that shaming the child-free is still a thing in the 24th -- or whatever it is -- century. 

Have I mentioned how much I ..... 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Francie said:

Yep. Except for the tiny part of one of their personalities was that she was bad at her job, so she earned the nickname “Crash.”

That oh-so-not-so-funny tidbit exemplifies the difference between TNG and whatever this show has been. When Riker first came on board Shaw’s ship, he made a very public joke about how Ensign LaForge was nicknamed crash. He publicly humiliated her in front of her colleagues.

Meanwhile, what drew me to TNG was how it exemplifies a professional work environment. Riker, along with Troi, was in charge of personnel. And while they occasionally teased Wesley while he was on the bridge, they never did so in a way that belittled his ability to perform the tasks of an ensign. Terry Matalas’s version of Riker caused him to take a cheap shot at someone beneath him in rank.  Rodenberry’s and Berman’s Riker would never have done that.

I still can't get over the scene from 17 Secons where Riker says to the at least 65-year-old Picard that he hopes Picard gets to enjoy parenthood some day. Ummm, the man is a senior citizen! Obviously he made his choice long ago to not, and that ship had sailed. Oh, but the plot. Think of the plot!

Sad to know that shaming the child-free is still a thing in the 24th -- or whatever it is -- century. 

Have I mentioned how much I ..... 

Crash also has the distinction of being a love interest/puppet for Jack.

To be fair, I'm sure there are plenty of examples of Riker and others teasing others about various things. Pulaski ragged on Data all the time. Riker called Data "Pinocchio." It's been part of his personality that he would joke with people and tease them from day one, methinks.

[MissLucas]

Well, I should thank this show. Despite being in the right age column I never fell for all the nostalgia pandering. So I'm either younger in mind tha body or at least half Vulcan (I'd prefer Romulan tbh). Both are okay with me.

They killed off Shaw, frack and frell!!!

[Prevailing Wind]

1 minute ago, MissLucas said:

They killed off Shaw, frack and frell!!!

I was SO hoping for a Shaw/Seven series, written much better than this one.

[MissLucas]

3 minutes ago, Prevailing Wind said:

I was SO hoping for a Shaw/Seven series, written much better than this one.

With the current state of writing for the franchise (SNW might be the exception) it's probably better that way.

[KittenPokerCheater]

They killed Shaw.  Bastards.

"I was SO hoping for a Shaw/Seven series, written much better than this one."

Me too, @Prevailing Wind. Me too.

Edited April 13, 2023 by KittenPokerCheater

[Francie]

47 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Crash also has the distinction of being a love interest/puppet for Jack.

As I can tell you already know from your use of the word 'puppet,' being the object of someone's attention is not a personality trait. But I'm still going to mention it anyway. ;) 

 

47 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

To be fair, I'm sure there are plenty of examples of Riker and others teasing others about various things. Pulaski ragged on Data all the time. Riker called Data "Pinocchio." It's been part of his personality that he would joke with people and tease them from day one, methinks.

Teasing colleagues among friends or one's superiors is one thing. Riker would tease Picard, but that's punching up. The Pinnocchio comment was a one-time thing, one-on-one, when they met, yes? I don't remember another time he did that, and I don't recall that being done to insult Data. It certainly wasn't done to publicly humiliate him. Riker would tease Worf, for instance, but never while Worf was at his battle station. What Riker did to Ensign LaForge in this show was punching down. And Riker didn't do that. No one on TNG did that. 

The closest Riker came to engaging in that type of behavior was when he teased Wesley while they all were on the bridge at the beginning of the second season when Wesley was staying on the Enterprise. The other time Riker was unprofessional, putting aside his flirtations with aliens (and they usually had the alien be the one to initiate and a whole 'nother can of worms) was when he and Ro got into a shouting match on a turbo lift. Still, he wasn't punching down or publicly humiliating a lower deck employee. Even when Riker had friction with the lower deck white male ensign in Lower Decks, there was no punching down or public humiliation for Riker's personal amusement. 

Having re-watched nearly all of TNG these past couple months, I think Pulaski gets a bad rap. Yes, she was installed in part to re-create the Bones-Spock sparring. But with Spiner playing Data as so child-like, her honest questions and pushback came off as bullying. She did, nearly instantly, correct the pronunciation of his name. She might have rolled her eyes when she did it, which wasn't right, but she didn't hold out until she was nearly dying. 

Fun fact: In America, we used to pronounce the word 'data' as dat-ta prior to the early 1990s. That was the prominent pronunciation, at any rate, and how the show runners intended Data's name to be pronounced. But, at the first table read, Patrick Stewart used the British pronunciation, Day-ta, and the showrunners liked that better. So they kept it. And once TNG permeated popular culture in America, we Americans starting using that pronunciation for all types of data as well. So, Patrick Stewart altered, in his own small way, American linguistics. 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Francie

[Lebanna]

Wesley wasn’t the only kid on the bridge. 

Chekov was 21 or 22 in TOS and 17 in the Kelvin universe and working on the bridge both times.

James Kirk in the Kelvin universe, of course, (ridiculously) becomes captain of the Enterprise at the grand old age of 25.

Harry Kim was supposed to be in his very early twenties and randomly also a highly trained musical genius. 

Hoshi Sato was a languages prodigy who was also meant to be around 22, if I remember correctly. 

Doctor Bashir was made the chief medical officer of DS9 at the frankly ancient age of 27.

So the idea that young people with a special gift get rapidly trained, promoted and put on the bridge has historical precedent.

All this is very silly, but it isn’t that weird. 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Lebanna

[Chicago Redshirt]

22 minutes ago, Francie said:

As I can tell you already know from your use of the word 'puppet,' being the object of someone's attention is not a personality trait. But I'm still going to mention it anyway. ;) 

 

Teasing colleagues among friends or one's superiors is one thing. Riker would tease Picard, but that's punching up. The Pinnocchio comment was a one-time thing, one-on-one, when they met, yes? I don't remember another time he did that, and I don't recall that being done to insult Data. It certainly wasn't done to publicly humiliate him. Riker would tease Worf, for instance, but never while Worf was at his battle station. What Riker did to Ensign LaForge in this show was punching down. And Riker didn't do that. No one on TNG did that. 

The closest Riker came to engaging in that type of behavior was when he teased Wesley while they all were on the bridge at the beginning of the second season when Wesley was staying on the Enterprise. The other time Riker was unprofessional, putting aside his flirtations with aliens (and they usually had the alien be the one to initiate and a whole 'nother can of worms) was when he and Ro got into a shouting match on a turbo lift. Still, he wasn't punching down or publicly humiliating a lower deck employee. Even when Riker had friction with the lower deck white male ensign in Lower Decks, there was no punching down or public humiliation for Riker's personal amusement. 

Having re-watched nearly all of TNG these past couple months, I think Pulaski gets a bad rap. Yes, she was installed in part to re-create the Bones-Spock sparring. But with Spiner playing Data as so child-like, her honest questions and pushback came off as bullying. She did, nearly instantly, correct the pronunciation of his name. 

Fun fact: In America, we used to pronounce the word 'data' as dat-ta prior to the early 1990s. That was the prominent pronunciation, at any rate, and how the show runners intended Data's name to be pronounced. But, at the first table read, Patrick Stewart used the British pronunciation, Day-ta, and the showrunners liked that better. So they kept it. And once TNG permeated popular culture in America, we Americans starting using that pronunciation for all types of data as well. So, Patrick Stewart altered, in his own small way, American linguistics. 

Not to bash on the show too hard, but it acts like it doesn't have much time to establish a personality for its central character.

Think about all the things that TNG established Picard was:

Moral beyond reproach, and a relentless, clever fighter for justice. 

Someone who was deeply cultured when it comes to literature, music, the arts.

Someone skilled at archaeology.

Someone who was perhaps a little too dutybound and reserved

Someone incredibly resilient and determined

Someone who had his scars and growth from surviving the Borg, the experiences of a lifetime in "The Inner Light" and elsewhere

Someone who had fun with horse riding and playing Dixon Hill.

Someone who likes solving mysteries and is good at it.

Someone who didn't flinch in the face of superior enemies.

Where in this season was that Picard? We see some superficial references when Chateau Picard and wine stuff get name-dropped.

But in this episode, when he explains the Borg to Jack, he says the experience with them DIDN'T leave scars. Are we to believe that JLP has gone senile? Or is he trying to downplay the fact that it has scarred him to this very day? Or do we just accept that the writers of this season want to ignore the various episodes of TNG and a full-length movie in First Contact and the first couple seasons of Picard that all show that Picard is still on some level haunted by what he went through?

--

Riker called Data Pinocchio in Encounter at Farpoint, but he also did in Measure of A Man when he was making the case that Data should be considered property. I'm fairly sure that one could come up with various examples of him teasing others. I think he was among the people who called Barclay "Broccoli" behind his back, for instance. Much as I love TNG, the crew sometimes fell short of the vision of professionalism.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Chicago Redshirt

[Francie]

42 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Riker called Data Pinocchio in Encounter at Farpoint, but he also did in Measure of A Man when he was making the case that Data should be considered property. I'm fairly sure that one could come up with various examples of him teasing others. I think he was among the people who called Barclay "Broccoli" behind his back, for instance. Much as I love TNG, the crew sometimes fell short of the vision of professionalism.

That was Geordi who coined it as a cheap, behind-the-back insult, and Riker, I think, reprimanded him for it. Riker did, inadvertently, use the nickname as a slip of the tongue with Picard in his ready room, because it was put into his head. Riker either was -- appropriately -- reprimanded for it or he caught himself in his error and explained. And I wouldn't say TNG was 100% exemplary. It wasn't. 

I'll try to shortcut this so as not to unduly belabor the point, and not continue to make it about the entirety of TNG. When watching that episode of this season where Riker came onto the board the Titan and publicly embarrassed Ensign LaForge, it hit me as rude and unentertaining. I thought, "What a jerk!" And I seldom, if ever, thought that of Riker before that point. It set a tone for me for the show. And it demonstrated to me how this show was just an average put-down, humiliate each other with quips and insults type of show. Not my kind of show. But that's just my experience. 

Edited to add: I'll give you one. In Generations, when Riker ordered the plank to be removed, while there's an argument he didn't intend to have Worf fall, that's too generous of a reading. Riker was, in fact, being a dick at work to Worf. But my point was more that Riker would not punch down and humiliate new, young employees for kicks and giggles. That I thought was a low. 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Francie

[thuganomics85]

Ah, I should have known.  Only two episodes left for this season/series and they were going to find some way to bring the Borg back into the fold.  I get that they are an iconic Trek villain and certainly have a major connection to Picard himself (not to mention Seven), but it seems a little too coy to have them the masterminds after-all.  And I'm still unsure about what the Changelings involvement is.  Were they already assimilated or did they just want to work with the Borg on their own accord?  Felt like I missed that explanation.

Anyway, thanks to the Changelings using Picard's DNA to infect the transporters with Borg DNA that he apparently had always been carrying, now anyone who has used a transporter and is under 25 (due to their frontal cortex not being fully developed) has just been assimilated and are causing hell on Frontier Day.  Not sure if this was just a convoluted way to have the oldsters save the day and teach the current gen a lesson ("Damn millennials and the way they get hooked on that Borg juice!"), but I guess it isn't the oddest explanation Trek has ever produced.  But I'm starting to think Dr. McCoy was onto something when it comes to transporters.  Maybe traffic and flight delays are a worthy sacrifice if using transporters might make you go a little Borg crazy!

Meanwhile, Jack is pissed and currently chilling with the Borg Queen herself.  We don't see a face but the credits confirmed the voice was OG Queen Alice Krige, so I wonder if we will get to see her come finale time.

Geordi really was too lax about leaving his daughters behind.  It was the right thing to do, but I feel like he would be more determined about getting them back and not be all "Here's a grand nostalgia reveal for y'all" when getting their new/old ship.

Worf is still defensive about the fate of Enterprise-E, heh.

Fare thee well, Shaw.  Wish your character was more consistent between being a bigoted dick or being a snarky ally, but at least you finally gave Seven her due (and right name) at the end and Todd Stashwick was always on point at least.

Did not predict that it would be Shelby from "The Best of Both Worlds" that would be the familiar face popping up on Frontier Day.  And dying of course...

Seven and Raffi staying behind on Titan just a) feels like an excuse to have the OG crew off by themselves and b) attempt to rekindle their relationship after ignoring it for most of this season.

So, the Enterprise-D returns!  Complete with lights and actual carpets!  Yes, inject that nostalgia into my veins!

[Cattoy]

28 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

So, the Enterprise-D returns!  Complete with lights and actual carpets!  Yes, inject that nostalgia into my veins!

I've been following various sites about this episode, and the most commented thing I've seen is, "They finally turned on the lights!"

Get a clue Hollywood. When people watch a show or movie, they want to be able to watch the show or movie, not listen to sounds set to vague shadowy movement.

[KeithJ]

12 hours ago, NeenerNeener said:

But what about friendly Borg Queen Agnes Juratti from last season?

I was asking myself that same question.  Where is she in all of this?

But, the last 5 minutes, OMG.  That was absolutely beautiful.

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Crash also has the distinction of being a love interest/puppet for Jack.

To be fair, I'm sure there are plenty of examples of Riker and others teasing others about various things. Pulaski ragged on Data all the time. Riker called Data "Pinocchio." It's been part of his personality that he would joke with people and tease them from day one, methinks.

I think the difference is that he was walking into a situation where he didn't necessarily know all the dynamics of the relationships on the ship, and there is a difference when the joking is between equals or near equals. Riker has spent enough time on the bridge so he wouldn't present himself as the jerky uncle. In line with being all one dysfunctional family, though.

'Ragged' is a term I don't hear very often, usually happy with that.

I have been okay with the first two seasons of this show, but I think this one is a mess. Jack was unnecessary, if they were going to lean into the nostalgia they should have got the gang together earlier, and they really should have moved on from the Borg. The changelings at least gave us a look into another part of the Star Trek syndicated universe.

[marinw]

So nobody over 25 gets assimilated? Most people in command level positions are older than that. And different species mature at different ages.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, thuganomics85 said:

Meanwhile, Jack is pissed and currently chilling with the Borg Queen herself.  We don't see a face but the credits confirmed the voice was OG Queen Alice Krige, so I wonder if we will get to see her come finale time.

Picard ripped her spine apart... The surviving Borg rebuilt a new Queen, same as the old Queen... 

5 minutes ago, marinw said:

So nobody over 25 gets assimilated? 

Those under 25 would comprise the majority of the crew... so the odds of a successful mutiny are better...

[Peace 47]

I was listening to the Bald Move Pulp podcast review of this episode, and they said something about how the one thing you don’t want in your counseling session is for your therapist to run crying from the room after a meditation or hypnosis sesh’, lol. Hard agree on that one.  Poor Jack.

1 hour ago, Lebanna said:

Wesley wasn’t the only kid on the bridge.  

In addition to your list, I saw a post a long time ago that Worf was supposed to be youngest of the TNG bridge crew and only supposed to be early-to-mid 20s at mission launch.  I don’t question that there would be a healthy dose of early-to-mid-20-somethings among all crew on all ships.  That, coupled with an endemic Changeling infiltration and ships that cannot be individually controlled (which may be the stupidest thing I have ever heard in all of Trek this side of an unexpected Romulan supernova), and I get how the takeover happens.  Did the Gen Zers (or Gen ZZZZZZers, since we’re hundreds of years from now) really proceed with murdering all the non-assimilated on all those ships?  I can’t imagine how Starfleet recovers from the total decimation of 2-3 generations of talent, even if the 20-somethings get restored. 

On the Borg reveal:  I’m neutral on it.  I was never able to get into DS9, so  pah wraiths and more Changeling stuff and Founders and whatever was never going to be my personal jam, and so I was relieved that the show doesn’t seem to be going harder on the DS9 lore, but on the other hand, the Borg stuff is so played.

What I do find kind of morbidly fascinating is that no TNG movie, and no season of this show, has ever been able to deliver on the promise of the best series finale of all time (IMO), where Q told Picard that the journey wasn’t mapping stars, but exploring the unlimited possibilities of existence (which I took to heart on the meta-level as using a space-time paradox story to say something interesting about how relationships change over time).  This story this season once again just seems to be scraping plot (“and then they did this, then this happened”) without the morality play, social commentary or emotional revelation that TNG was often great at.

[marinw]

So what happened to the Enterprise E?

[paigow]

3 minutes ago, marinw said:

So what happened to the Enterprise E?

Picard rammed The Scimitar [Shinzon] to prevent it from firing... Hence Enterprise F

[KeithJ]

Geordi said that the Enterprise was the only ship not connected to the Starfleet mainframe.  One question, why would any of the ships at the museum be connected to the mainframe?  They were all decommissioned long before this weren't they?  Would have loved to see Janeway meet them there and take Voyager back out with them.

12 minutes ago, marinw said:

So what happened to the Enterprise E?

 

8 minutes ago, paigow said:

Picard rammed The Scimitar [Shinzon] to prevent it from firing... Hence Enterprise F

 

I had to look this up.  Seems like it was repaired after that:

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(NCC-1701-E)

However, they don't say what happened to it and only alluded to Worf's "it wasn't my fault" so I guess nobody knows what happened to it.

[Peace 47]

1 minute ago, paigow said:

Picard rammed The Scimitar [Shinzon] to prevent it from firing... Hence Enterprise F

It was apparently repaired, because I saw somewhere that one of the novels had Worf become the captain of the Enterprise-E eventually.  Not sure why everyone looked accusingly at Worf when the E was mentioned, though.  For me, the Enterprise-D >>>> than the E.  Years ago, the Honest Trailers for TNG called the D a cross between starship and Marriott convention center (with all the concerts and conferences), haha.

[Cthulhudrew]

10 hours ago, dwmarch said:

So now that we know what is behind the red door, what was the point of Jack again? Seems to me like this Borg plan didn't require assistance from him at all (beyond proof of concept that Borg DNA could be passed along).

There was a lot of gobbledygook in this, so I may not be right, but the gist that I took away is that Jack is the "transmitter" through which the Borg Queen can exercise control of the "infected". So as long as he's plugged into her Borg Cube, she retains control of the NextGen-Z crowd. Unplug him (or "plug" him with a phaser) and everyone's free to be you and me.

As for what they needed Picard's original body for? Dunno. Unless they just wanted it to hide evidence of their nefarious plan.

It's funny; in seven seasons and four movies of the ST:TNG cast, there were really only a handful of episodes that dealt with Picard and the Borg. A handful in nearly 200 outings. Yet Every.Single.Frickin'.Season of Picard has revolved in some fashion around Picard and his Borg past. It's funny and kind of sad.

[Chaos Theory]

Founders Days went about as well as expected.

episode 9 in a nutshell:

Arguably Star Trek two biggest and best Enemies deciding to join forces to destroy Starfleet using Picard’s first body And his  son.

and yes there is no place like home.

Episode One Captain Shaw most people pretty much wanted him to die painfully bit by episode nine everyone was like “noooo not Shaw!!!!!”

[dovegrey]

5 minutes ago, marinw said:

So nobody over 25 gets assimilated? Most people in command level positions are older than that. And different species mature at different ages.

I don't think the age limit makes much sense in terms of what we've seen of the Borg previously (and with other species), but between the thousands of people who are now suddenly hostile Borg drones and much (most?) of the senior command staff having been replaced by Changelings, anyone left uncompromised appears to have been rather quickly killed. All in all, the Changelings get some nasty revenge, and the Borg get Federation technology + Starfleet finally off their backs + a foothold in the Alpha Quadrant. They didn't need to assimilate everyone.

As a general comment, what I really didn't like about the episode was the clunky dialogue and most of the cast standing around the same computer screen just waiting to say their expository lines and try to act around silly sudden revelations. Also, while I think the guy who plays Jack is a decent actor, I really, really can't see him as a 23-year-old kid. He just comes off as a really unstable and impulsive 40-year-old.

Also, from the last episode, I'm wondering if Vadic avoided killing the younger crew members (who were assimilated in this episode) and chose to kill the older crew member at the last moment, because she knew exactly what was going to happen when the Borg took over. I'd be a bit impressed with that subtle bit of writing. (Also, wow, the poor Titan crew have been through all the levels of hell this season.)

[Cthulhudrew]

3 minutes ago, dovegrey said:

Also, from the last episode, I'm wondering if Vadic avoided killing the younger crew members (who were assimilated in this episode) and chose to kill the older crew member at the last moment, because she knew exactly what was going to happen when the Borg took over. 

My take was that Vadic was trying to terrorize the crew and Picard's people, and a Vulcan was the least likely to be susceptible to emotional blackmail so made sense as the first victim.

It seems logical to me. 😄

Edited April 14, 2023 by Cthulhudrew

[marinw]

The Enterorise D sets must have been dismantled long ago. So they either rebuilt the Bridge set or it was some CGI stuff. I was reminded of Scotty visiting the holodeck to see the bridge of the OG Enterprise in Relics.

Edited April 15, 2023 by marinw

[dovegrey]

2 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

My take was that Vadic was trying to terrorize the crew and Picard's people, and a Vulcan was the least likely to be susceptible to emotional blackmail so made sense as the first victim.

It seems logical to me. 😄

The crew held at gunpoint weren't the ones being blackmailed. Jack was being emotionally blackmailed. Why mercy kill the people that will be the subject of your twisted revenge? The Vulcan crew member was dead, either way. The young ones would live on as drones. I'd rather be vaporized than assimilated, personally. 🙃

[Cthulhudrew]

8 minutes ago, dovegrey said:

The crew held at gunpoint weren't the ones being blackmailed. Jack was being emotionally blackmailed. Why mercy kill the people that will be the subject of your twisted revenge? The Vulcan crew member was dead, either way. 

Sorry, I should have elaborated. Having all the crew members in terror for their lives and pleading and crying was part of Vadic's emotional blackmail with Jack. If one of the crew was stoic and unmoved, it might have lessened the impact of their situation, I guess is how I was looking at it.

(ETA: Not to mention Vadic was obviously a bit of a sadist, and was enjoying the suffering she caused everyone who could feel fear.)

Edited April 14, 2023 by Cthulhudrew

[Wyndsong]

Wait, so every crew member on the Titan is under 25 years old except for the main cast? That seems...improbable. But this is just illustrative of the writing of this series. Nostalgia has helped to carry the series but it can only do so much. There's no sense of urgency, no plan, no logic. Like I said, I'm still here because of the nostalgia, but it's hard to handwave a lot of this away. 

Also, Wesley Crusher was my first TV crush. I'm bummed Wil Wheaton wasn't involved in some way. I still don't quite understand what happened to his character--and I watched season two where it was supposedly explained. That was even more of a mess than this season. 

[AWhittle]

Shaw did say in his tirade that the real Borg was still out there.

For 8 episodes we had mystery with the shapeshifters. Now we are back to the Borg and this zombies trope. 

[Starchild]

TNG was never my favourite Trek, but I've been watching Picard because, well, it's Trek.

That whole final sequence with the ENT-D was cheesy as hell.

But when I heard Majel's voice, I legit choked up. All the cheese was worth it to get her into this.

Bravo, ST:Picard, bravo.

[dovegrey]

17 minutes ago, Wyndsong said:

Wait, so every crew member on the Titan is under 25 years old except for the main cast? That seems...improbable. But this is just illustrative of the writing of this series. Nostalgia has helped to carry the series but it can only do so much. There's no sense of urgency, no plan, no logic. Like I said, I'm still here because of the nostalgia, but it's hard to handwave a lot of this away.

Ro took all non-essential crew off the Titan, before she told Picard to run. But that sure does seem like a whole lot of the essential crew are fairly young and/or they didn't show the massacre of the non-compromised crew. I think they pulled the punch.

I'm with you on the nostalgia/no urgency/no plan/no logic. The characters just kind of stand around and look mildly shocked, then run to a new location. The entire fleet has been assimilated or annihilated, and they're patting each other on the back and commenting on carpet...before setting course to a planet under Borg control with absolutely no back-up, or even before sending a call-to-arms to colonies/outposts/allies/anyone who would not like the Federation to be Borg territory. I think the last scene with the Enterprise was supposed to be special and touching, but I'm fairly stuck on the tonal shift and complete lack of planning.

[greekmom]

Section 31 is useless.   Instead of experimenting with Changelings, they should have come up with a 'vaccine ' to prevent people from being assimilated.   I mean, comeon, they came up with the virus for the Changeling.  It would have prevent another Borg attack.

Have I said how utterly useless the writing is??

[dwmarch]

57 minutes ago, AWhittle said:

Shaw did say in his tirade that the real Borg was still out there.

It's a shame we haven't seen them yet. If you want to assimilate the Federation try attacking with one of your bigass ships! Or you know, maybe even two or three!

[Stardancer Supreme]

*i will NOT jump on my feminist soapbox*

Sigh. On to Star Trek: Jaaaaaaaaaacck...  As soon as I saw the Borg Cube, I thought, "So... are we going to see Agnes Borgati?"  I was thrown when Beverly said that they hadn't seen the Borg in a decade... Did Picard Seasons 1 and 2 just not happen?  I was like "Picard was mucking around with the Borg just a year ago! What do you mean you haven't seen them in a decade?"  

As much as my memberberries was overflowing this season, I just can't look past the way this story was written. I just shut my Vulcan brain off and enjoyed the ride.

I was already done when they killed Elizabeth Shelby. (She was my favorite character in the Peter David Star Trek: New Frontier novels, which I am recollecting in hardcover versions.) I was really bummed that Shaw was killed.  I guess this was the only way to get him to use Seven's name and get her to be the captain of the Titan.  I also wondered why she and Raffi stayed on the Titan knowing that they aren't in control of her and the ship is overrun with Borg drones...

I'm surprised that Alandra LaForge wasn't on the Bridge when she was assimilated. She practically spent every minute since we were introduced to her stuck to Geordi's side! (And who is their mother, Geordi?)

I almost felt sorry for Jaaaaaaaaaacck, I really did. Knowing that he was going to run right into the Queen's arms tempered that feeling really quickly. If Picard was smarter, he should have sedated him the moment he found out about the Borg connection.  So we are never going to forgive Picard for being Locutus, huh?

Fleet Formation. Starships acting like Borg. Ugh. I would have liked to not be witness to the destruction of the Exelsior.  That was the only ship without an abundance of crew under 25?

Clicking my Vulcan brain back on for a second:  I also hated the tone shift when the TNG crew got back to the Fleet museum.  Ya'll just left the StarBorg Fleet, which is about to annihilate the Space Dock (so no one there was assimilated? Yikes!), and you are taking a leisurely stroll down memory lane?  With no sense of urgency whatsoever.  The Defiant and Voyager isn't spaceworthy?  Gaah.

Lines I laugh/snorted at:

Data: I hope we die quickly!

Deanna: I have never been so happy to see wrinkles in my life.

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Stardancer Supreme

[Starchild]

2 hours ago, KeithJ said:

Geordi said that the Enterprise was the only ship not connected to the Starfleet mainframe.  One question, why would any of the ships at the museum be connected to the mainframe?  They were all decommissioned long before this weren't they?

He said it was the only functioning ship not connected. It was the only one at the museum that was functioning because he'd been tinkering with it for 20 years, it had some other ship's engines. The rest, including Defiant and Voyager, must have been decommissioned, engines and/or other parts removed, etc. as part of being added to the museum, which would make sense.

[Prevailing Wind]

12 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

 I was thrown when Beverly said that they hadn't seen the Borg in a decade... Did Picard Seasons 1 and 2 just not happen?  I was like "Picard was mucking around with the Borg just a year ago! What do you mean you haven't seen them in a decade?" 

She HAS been out of touch, running with her baby boy from various entities he'd pissed off.

[txhorns79]

19 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

(Flashes of Beverly’s disappearing universe episode!) 

I had the same thought.  When it was down to Beverly, I remember her asking the computer if she was qualified to run the ship by herself, and the computer peacing out on that one.  Mind you, even if they really need a giant crew to run the ship, having them all back there again was pretty great. 

[Frozendiva]

So we get a 10 episode season.

We get the lengthy red herring or distraction plot of Vadic and the Changelings along with some creepy image or hologram of someone she was talking with regarding the great plans. That whole sub plot could have taken 2-2.5 eps to resolve. Picard and Jack and oh I know about you Jack but it isn’t my place to fill you or anyone else in. I am two galaxies ahead of your thinking and you won’t figure it out.  We get the bigger arch plot of Frontier Day, but we only have 2 eps left to finish off this story that needed 12-13 eps. And the mystery red door that leads to green.

There was the warning of a compromised Starfleet that seemed to be excited about the newest fleet adaptation/galactic show that all ships were connected. Like the cloud without a kill switch. Don’t put everything on the cloud. Have a backup. Except we learned there is a maintenance channel.

The Borg were patient in waiting for DNA changes for a generation to plot to take over Starfleet and its collection of planets and resources. They didn’t seem to be all that calculating or long term planners and just seemed to be opportunists happening upon new folks to add to the collective. And then what? None of them communicate with each other and actually come up with a plan? Except the skipped generation of Locutus offspring, which was quite risky in not being able to pull it off. Lots of variables. Jack just seemed to be a plot device. Will his DNA be the final nail in the Borg’s coffin and flip them back? Resistance may be futile but in the wrong direction. A Borg backfire that destroys them once and for all. Except for a little piece of DNA that can resurface two generations from now.

The fireworks of Frontier Day and then things going wrong. Jack stupidly tried to fix everything without a Plan B.

I was a sucker for the nostalgia of the old ship and the great adventures of the past. One would think that the whole conspiracy would have also included disabling the old museum pieces. But we find out that Geordi has plenty of free time on the weekend to fix up the old clunker and making it the last functioning ship. I enjoyed the ‘engage’ and that Seven finally got her due. Wonder if Shaw really is dead.

There wa speculation somewhere that the ancient darkness could have been Regic - the old dark energy of Jack the Ripper - but that didn’t seem to fit the season’s story. More suited to another series.

[DrScottie]

2 hours ago, Starchild said:

But when I heard Majel's voice, I legit choked up. All the cheese was worth it to get her into this.

That was a line from Chain of Command, Part 2 when Captain Picard relieves Captain Jellico after he was rescued from Gul Madred (There are...FOUR...lights!). Hence it was Captain Picard, not Admiral.  

25 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I had the same thought.  When it was down to Beverly, I remember her asking the computer if she was qualified to run the ship by herself, and the computer peacing out on that one.  Mind you, even if they really need a giant crew to run the ship, having them all back there again was pretty great. 

It was great seeing them back at their stations including Geordi at the Conn which is where he was at the start of the show in season 1 of TNG. When the original Enterprise was stolen by Kirk and his bridge crew in Star Trek III, it was clear that they didn't need that many people aboard to get from Earth to the Genesis Planet.  Of course, I'm not sure how damage control would be handled in a fight with everyone on the bridge. Perhaps Geordi's drones would help with that too or emergency holograms that aren't interfaced with StarFleet's mainframe. 

30 minutes ago, Frozendiva said:

Wonder if Shaw really is dead.

I hope not since I have gained a lot of respect for the man over the course of a season, but considering he addressed Seven properly and transferred command to her with what appears to be his dying breath, I suspect that he's done.