S03.E08: Part Eight - Surrender

[Stardancer Supreme]

1 minute ago, Colorado David said:

i am sorry why is the shrike suddenly vulnerable to 3-4 photon torpedoes? it has been badass up to now.

 

Because the Shrike was practically empty. Vadic took every changeling save one with her to the Titan!  Worf dispatched the one guarding Riker and Troi and they, along with Raffi, was able to roam about the Shrike to stumble on Picard's body without issue.

[Affogato]

9 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

There was that one changeling visiting DS9 who changed into a space whale and traveled the stars that way. He wasn't a founder, but I assume the founders would have mastered that in their long existence?

The semisolids like Vaddic would have many human (or at least semisolid) limitations or their organs and blood would not pass scrutiny.

[rtms77]

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Still think a familiar face in Starfleet will end up being a Changeling they have to face against come endgame time.  Still thinking it might be Janeway.

Well they didn’t name drop her this ep nor was there any reference to Voyager sooo? But yeah I think Janeway has been long compromised. 
 

Im tired of “Special Jack” and his growing abilities. I m tired that Beverly is clueless about her son and has never bothered this whole time to really scan him and figure out what is going on. She’s dragged this “20” yr old, 😂 across the galaxy and raised a thief, all the while cutting her close friends off just so his supposed father couldn’t know about him. And now it seems he may not even be her son!?

Deanna has two facial expressions, bored, and constipated . 
 

Ok Data tricking Lore was good and now Spiner can mug for the cameras again in the next season…. Oh right there are only 2 more eps and no 4 th season. Oh well it only took them 25 yrs to figure this out.

Unless there was a huge time jump, I can’t see Kestra in Starfleet Academy yet. 
 

Seven needs to ditch SF, grab the La Serena back, get far away from rules and regs. Be a Jack Sparrow 7 and wave them goodbye.

Edited April 7, 2023 by rtms77

[MissLucas]

7 minutes ago, rtms77 said:

Seven needs to ditch SF, grab the La Serena back, get far away from rules and regs. Be a Jack Sparrow 7 and wave them goodbye.

This! I might add she should shanghai Shaw and keelhaul him (however that works in space) until he calls her Captain Seven of Nine. These two are the best thing about the show.

[FloatOn]

13 minutes ago, rtms77 said:

Unless there was a huge time jump, I can’t see Kestra in Starfleet Academy yet. 

Apparently it's only been 2 years since season 1, so she's at best like 15, 16? She seemed like she was around 13 when we saw her on Nepenthe. When they brought her up in the first episode, it sounded like she still living with Riker and Deanna since he said she needed time away from from him. That wouldn't really make sense if she was away at school somewhere.

I saw it mentioned somewhere else that, just like with the Raffi and Seven romance and when Deanna was missing for weeks, he probably had no interest in the character or that story so they didn't include anything about it on the show. He didn't expect however for fans to care and hound him on twitter, hence all these interviews with tidbits he probably just came up with on the fly about the offscreen Saffi romance/breakup, Kestra, and why Deanna wasn't around for half the season.

[Prevailing Wind]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

You ruined my life...

Prepare to die.

Mandy Patinkin is behind the Red Door?

Did Mr. Talk To The Hand die along with Vadic?

[PurpleTentacle]

3 hours ago, greekmom said:

Theories on what is behind Jack's red door:

    1.    Denise Crosby 
    2.    Wesley the time traveller 
    3.    The Green Mist ghost 

4. Bobby Ewing in a shower

3 hours ago, ch1 said:

I don’t think I have ever been tired of a character the way I am over Data.  Dear God let the character die and stay dead.  How many times does Spiner have to basically do the same scenes?

I used to love Data, but yeah ST:P has destroyed the character for me. This back and forth is just annoying.

2 hours ago, Prevailing Wind said:

I'm still waiting for those parasite things that infected much of the upper echelons of Starfleet that had everybody eating live meal worms.  Picard & Riker blasted the crap out of Remick to kill the master, but only after a signal had been sent to the home planet. Maybe that's what behind The Red Door.

Those would have been way better villains than weird modified changelings. But the writers probably don't know about them.

1 hour ago, ChitChat said:

I was happy to see Spot too.  I wish they could've squeezed in a cameo by Wil Wheaton.  

They only had things Data could physically hand Lore. Would have been a bit awkward if he had picked up Wil Wheaton and handed him to Lore. Although it probably would have been the highlight of the season for me.

1 hour ago, Cattoy said:

I'm not going to rehash all the nonsense and plot holes others have already pointed out. I found myself watching this and constantly checking the time. I was going to say a decent editor could have cut this down to 20 minutes, then I realized a decent editor could have cut this whole season down to 20 minutes. Even I don't know if that's hyperbole.

You could probably cut it down to a nice 90 minute movie. But I'm not sure that that would improve it much.

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

The semisolids like Vaddic would have many human (or at least semisolid) limitations or their organs and blood would not pass scrutiny.

I specifically wasn't talking about the new dumb changelings. I was replying to somebody who said that even the founders (original changelings) wouldn't be able to survive in space.

Also even though this season is trying to gaslight us into believing that normal changelings wouldn't pass scrutiny, they always did. They could always replicate organs convinvingly and scanners couldn't distinguish them from real solids. That's why the blood test was necessary.

35 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

This! I might add she should shanghai Shaw and keelhaul him (however that works in space)

In space you put them in an airlock and then open it. I'd recommend doing that to most of the characters.

22 minutes ago, Prevailing Wind said:

Mandy Patinkin is behind the Red Door?

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/14698269-949e-44e5-a044-f8c08619dec7

[AWhittle]

I’d have either kept the Shrike or have gutted the advanced tech from it before I destroyed it… but that’s just me. 🤣

[statsgirl]

"Monologuing protoplasm". Awesome.

Also great was the continuity of Riker's jealousy of Worf, Worf the poet*, Deanna and Riker talking out the loss of their son and her inappropriateness of taking away his pain (more depth than we ever got from her on TNG), and Raffi's awesome combat skills.

There are only two episodes left in the series. Are we ever going to find out what makes Jack so special?

* I'm very glad that this show is using DS9 Worf rather than TNG Worf. TNG used him more for plot than as a character. DS9 brought him to life.

[Frozendiva]

Had some sound issues the first half of the ep - very fuzzy.

Nice to see Spot again. Too bad Lore wasn’t allergic to him.

The show could pull a Q at being behind the door. The last time a door was used was a revisit to the time portal instead of the donut shaped machine.

Vadic went out as cold as ice.

Two eps to tie all this together? We should know a lot more about Frontier a day than we do.

I still don’t care about Jack - not compelling or interesting.

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

"Monologuing protoplasm". Awesome.

Also great was the continuity of Riker's jealousy of Worf, Worf the poet*, Deanna and Riker talking out the loss of their son and her inappropriateness of taking away his pain (more depth than we ever got from her on TNG), and Raffi's awesome combat skills.

There are only two episodes left in the series. Are we ever going to find out what makes Jack so special?

* I'm very glad that this show is using DS9 Worf rather than TNG Worf. TNG used him more for plot than as a character. DS9 brought him to life.

His illness allows him to house an alien in his head. 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Affogato

[tkc]

Who is behind the door?

"Jack... Jack... Yes, there's room for you here..."

Edited April 7, 2023 by tkc

[Prevailing Wind]

Behind the Door: Lursa, B'etor, and Duras, still trying to take the Klingon Empire via Jack.

We need a separate thread. ROFL.

[chaifan]

14 hours ago, greekmom said:

The only half decent thing was Worf's speech to Deanna.

That was a great scene.  Riker's reactions were perfect.

Though I will say, the other half decent thing was Worf's comment about almost sending everyone at the table the lopped off heads of his adversaries.   I hated the rest of that table scene - I felt they were just wasting time.  Yeah, the band is back together, we get it.  I expected them pull out cards and start playing poker.  How many hours left until Federation Day? 

10 hours ago, rtms77 said:

Seven needs to ditch SF, grab the La Serena back, get far away from rules and regs. Be a Jack Sparrow 7 and wave them goodbye.

If they didn't have Shaw revert to the "Commander Hansen" crap, I could see a spinoff with Seven, Shaw and Rafi.  Still in Starfleet, officially, but yet somewhat rogue.  Other than his refusal to call Seven Seven, I really like Shaw. 

I like the new Data, but that's just because I like Brent Spiner and have always wanted him to have the ability to play Data with emotions and wit (not just as evil Lore). 

The Shrike crew...  I thought Vadic was the only changeling on the ship, and that her crew were another species.  Did we ever see any of them actually change into something/someone?  Maybe I missed something, but this has been my assumption all season.  They're her Jemhaddar, minions, whatever. 

And I'm only going to mention Jack to say I'm not wasting my time discussing Jack.

 

 

 

[greekmom]

10 hours ago, FloatOn said:

Apparently it's only been 2 years since season 1, so she's at best like 15, 16? She seemed like she was around 13 when we saw her on Nepenthe. When they brought her up in the first episode, it sounded like she still living with Riker and Deanna since he said she needed time away from from him. That wouldn't really make sense if she was away at school somewhere.

In the UK. If there is a next season or whatnot, you will see her sporting a British accent. I mean they pick it up if they go to school in England.

13 minutes ago, chaifan said:

If they didn't have Shaw revert to the "Commander Hansen" crap, I could see a spinoff with Seven, Shaw and Rafi.  Still in Starfleet, officially, but yet somewhat rogue.  Other than his refusal to call Seven Seven, I really like Shaw. 

And I'm only going to mention Jack to say I'm not wasting my time discussing Jack.

I'm telling you, I'm betting Captain Douch professes his love for the beautiful Commander Seven Annika Hansen of Nine.

The less Jack the better. Bev's track record as a mom is worse than Worf's track record as a father.   

 

[paigow]

37 minutes ago, greekmom said:

I'm telling you, I'm betting Captain Douch professes his love for the beautiful Commander Seven Annika Hansen of Nine.

He is checking archived Enterprise logs about how Pike dealt with female XO...date or not to date

[Francie]

This was the moment that broke me (I'm paraphrasing because I'm not going back to watch this scene).

Riker (when talking about the upside of being kidnapped with Deanna): At least it gives me one last chance to ...

Me, automatically anticipating the next line in spite of myself: tell you how much I love you.

Riker: use my ol' Riker charm. 

That broke me, and I became dead inside to this show at that point. If I were a flower, I would have wilted over in an instant. I thought I didn't have any expectations for this show, but there is no depth to which I would have to sink them. Glib and superficial. That's all this show is. 

On 4/6/2023 at 1:28 PM, FloatOn said:

I know people didn't like season 1 and it wasn't my favorite thing either. However, I find the constant digs at the Nepenthe episode and Matalas trying to make it seem like the Rikers only cared about their son this whole time to be in extremely poor taste. There were ways to get the story about grief and them feeling isolated on that planet across without direct digs at the other season and by making them seem like neglectful parents towards their daughter.

It would have made more sense for the characters to have acknowledged that Nepenthe served its purpose and note some annoyances without completely shitting all over it. It was the last place they spent time with this beloved son, and being there allowed them to have more time with him. So dialogue more suited to that point where they acknowledge that and say, "I was only staying because I thought you wanted to," would have made more sense and been more enjoyable. YMMV. 

Behind the scenes-wise, I wonder if the showrunners were shitting all over it because it was the one moment from Season 1 that was hailed as a massive success. It didn't involve space ships and space fights and there wasn't a lot of glib one-liners and references to Escape from New York, etc. So it was a bit of rejection of what they quite apparently most enjoy. Either that or there was a show runner from that seasons who was largely responsible for that episode, and they wanted to shit all over him. 

 

On 4/6/2023 at 5:29 PM, greekmom said:

Riker didn't even test to make sure that Deanna is truly Deanna

I was going to say I would have liked to have seen that scene. But as someone here put very well, the writers would only butcher it. 

Given how short last week's episode was, the lack of any such scene wasn't due to time purposes. And the "limited availability" excuse is lame given that Marina was in Los Angeles for two months to film. I get how that would limit her from appearing in half of it, but they're making it out like she was only available for days. They're covering their asses on that one.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Francie

[ML89]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

The Shrike crew...  I thought Vadic was the only changeling on the ship, and that her crew were another species.  Did we ever see any of them actually change into something/someone?  Maybe I missed something, but this has been my assumption all season.  They're her Jemhaddar, minions, whatever. 

Vadic and Minions....okay, now I can't get that out of my head! I also didn't think they were changelings.

 

[Francie]

Based on the interwebs, the true target of the shitting on Nepenthe was a season 1 writer:

 

 

[dovegrey]

Unless they really pull something incredible off, the only thing I would find interesting and possibly compelling is if it's a representation of Locutus behind the door. (Or it's a door to get off the holodeck 🤣).

Whether or not it makes sense for Picard to have passed along genetic Borg nanoprobes (IDK, maybe Picard/Locutus was actually meant to be some sort of trojan horse all along), thematically, having a Borg tie-in makes the most sense based on details strewn about the season (e.g., playing Picard's log from Best of Both Worlds, Shaw's Wolf 359 experience and Locutus exposition, Jack's hallucination of Seven, Vadic saying it made sense for Seven to witness whatever was supposed to have happened with Jack, and the Borg possibly being considered "ancient and weak," the latter thanks to Janeway) and even the major story-threads from Picard seasons 1 and 2. I really think we're too far along to go all in with a DS9/Changeling/Founders/Pah Wraith/etc explanation; the plane needs to start landing, and a Borg explanation is the closest runway.

It's interesting to me, as a possible storypoint or possibly just a handwaved plothole, that Deanna was so quickly discovered on Nepenthe. In season 1, the Rikers were so far off the grid that Picard felt safe going there when he was being hunted. How did Vadic know? How did Vadic know so much about everything? It makes me wonder if Section 31 experimented on Vadic/the Changelings with Borg nanotech and there's some sort of Great Link/Borg Collective stuff going on; possibly Vadic tapped into Agnes's Collective. Or they grabbed Kestra from the Academy and tortured her for information, and Riker and Deanna don't care.

I kinda miss Wesley. It doesn't feel right that he's not been a part of any of this. *ducks*

I admit that I'm curious if they'll be able to pull it all together and to find out where this has all been going. Hopefully it's been going somewhere.

[Chit Chat]

12 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

They only had things Data could physically hand Lore. Would have been a bit awkward if he had picked up Wil Wheaton and handed him to Lore. 

That's not what I meant.  Maybe your reply was a joke?  I would've liked to have seen Wil with his crew again. 

[FloatOn]

1 hour ago, Francie said:

I was going to say I would have liked to have seen that scene. But as someone here put very well, the writers would only butcher it. 

Given how short last week's episode was, the lack of any such scene wasn't due to time purposes. And the "limited availability" excuse is lame given that Marina was in Los Angeles for two months to film. I get how that would limit her from appearing in half of it, but they're making it out like she was only available for days. They're covering their asses on that one. 

I feel like it's definitely covering their asses, especially since I've seen other people say she's been at cons saying she was available for more than they used her and that she was bummed she didn't get to be in on the adventure like the others. But two months is still a long time to be there to film and we've barely seen her. I'll be interested to see how much she gets in the last two. I know she's apparently happy with her stuff in the last episodes, but we'll see. I've thought for a while that her complete absence from the promo for this season was interesting, especially since they had Brent Spiner zooming in from wherever he lives. She's been out on the circuit so it's not like she's unavailable.

I do feel like them doing a changeling story and the Jack thing basically meant they had to keep her away for a good portion of the season. As we saw, she'd be able to figure it out right away. I think however that's bad writing on a base level because when they were writing the season, they should have realized that element would keep one of the main 7 out of commission for most of the story. If they were set on the changelings, then they should have come up with a better way to incorporate her throughout than a flashback of her yelling at Riker about being stuck at home with the kids. 

I didn't mind the break from Data for a bit, but did we ever get an explanation on why there was also no Geordi for like half of the season? At least with Sirtis, you can go with the excuse of her living in Europe and covid. What was LeVar Burton doing that kept him out of it for so long? I still maintain my feelings from a few weeks ago that they were only really interested in a Picard, Riker, Crusher, and to a point, Worf and had to half ass come up with something for Deanna, Data, and Geordi.

[AWhittle]

Looks like we will be getting Troi in Jack’s head and both will be going through strange imagery behind the red door. 

Where is a Vulcan when you need him to do a  real mind meld?

On a serious note…

Fair warning: It looks like they will be revisiting trauma and flashbacks. That might trigger some viewers who are dealing with their own real life memories. 

[cardigirl]

It just seems a bit too neatly finished to have Vadic vanquished and no enemy in view but there are still two episodes left. I know that the big celebration Star Fleet is preparing for is in danger because there are changelings throughout the organization, so, I'm guessing that no one is really safe at the moment. (Safe from dying.) 

I enjoyed this episode more than the previous one, but I'm ready to find out what the mystery is about Jack and why Vadic called him baby boy. 

Edited April 7, 2023 by cardigirl

[MissLucas]

14 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

why Vadic called him baby boy. 

Clearly she had no concept of solids aging processes!

[ML89]

22 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Clearly she had no concept of solids aging processes!

Just like the producers...

[Prevailing Wind]

5 hours ago, chaifan said:

I expected them pull out cards and start playing poker.

But Data doesn't have his green visor.

3 hours ago, dovegrey said:

Unless they really pull something incredible off, the only thing I would find interesting and possibly compelling is if it's a representation of Locutus behind the door. (Or it's a door to get off the holodeck 🤣).

So this is all a holodeck program initiated by Moriarty in revenge?

ETA: When Data was handing over his collection of memories to Lore, I was expecting Lore to be trapped by the Japanese Finger Cuff.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Prevailing Wind

[Peace 47]

I really didn’t take anything negative from Riker and Troi dissing Nepenthe, but since so many of you all (and others on the Internet) did, I guess I misinterpreted the intentions of the scene.  I would just say that Riker and Troi have often had a semi-teasing relationship with one another and have used humor to relate to one another. And here, they were just finding some common ground about how that place doesn’t suit them anymore.  They both got serious at the end when Riker asked why they were still there, and Troi basically said that they had to be ready to leave their ties to that place behind and move on from the acute grief phase.

On the flip side, everyone seems to be praising Riker’s reaction to Worf, and as I said above, that didn’t sit right with me because Worf was sharing an earnest reflection on how Deanna inspired his personal growth, and Riker is basically like, “Don’t talk to my wife like that,” and it seems weird because Worf moved on from Deanna decades ago, married someone else, hasn’t seen her recently, apparently, and Riker and Worf were very close friends, so why the weird jealousy played for laughs?  It seemed like the characters were in service of the joke, not the joke being in service of the characters.  🤷‍♀️

[Francie]

7 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

On the flip side, everyone seems to be praising Riker’s reaction to Worf, and as I said above, that didn’t sit right with me because Worf was sharing an earnest reflection on how Deanna inspired his personal growth, and Riker is basically like, “Don’t talk to my wife like that,” and it seems weird because Worf moved on from Deanna decades ago, married someone else, hasn’t seen her recently, apparently, and Riker and Worf were very close friends, so why the weird jealousy played for laughs?

I thought it was odd because nothing Worf said should've been construed as romantic in nature. 

7 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

 It seemed like the characters were in service of the joke, not the joke being in service of the characters.

That's the whole show in nutshell, my fellow poster. The whole show.

On 4/6/2023 at 12:07 PM, Stardancer Supreme said:

I hope Kestra is safe somewhere.  Knowing about Marina Sirtis' limited availability, I am glad thay didn't show us the torture she underwent.

Turns out, Marina's "limited availability" had nothing to do with why Troi and Riker were absent from the prior episode. They shot scenes, but were cut because they were "killing Vadic's monologue." 

https://collider.com/star-trek-picard-season-3-episode-8-riker-troi-terry-matalas-comments/  (Matalas explained: "We initially had them in seven, as well, but cutting between the Rikers and Vadic's monologue was killing Vadic's monologue, and killing the Rikers. It was breaking up the stories in ways that [were] not helping either one of them." and "So, at some point, you have to say, ‘We have to just pick a story.’ So, we decided seven was going to be the Vadic story.")

[greekmom]

4 hours ago, dovegrey said:

Unless they really pull something incredible off, the only thing I would find interesting and possibly compelling is if it's a representation of Locutus behind the door. (Or it's a door to get off the holodeck 🤣).

Whether or not it makes sense for Picard to have passed along genetic Borg nanoprobes (IDK, maybe Picard/Locutus was actually meant to be some sort of trojan horse all along), thematically, having a Borg tie-in makes the most sense based on details strewn about the season (e.g., playing Picard's log from Best of Both Worlds, Shaw's Wolf 359 experience and Locutus exposition, Jack's hallucination of Seven, Vadic saying it made sense for Seven to witness whatever was supposed to have happened with Jack, and the Borg possibly being considered "ancient and weak," the latter thanks to Janeway) and even the major story-threads from Picard seasons 1 and 2. I really think we're too far along to go all in with a DS9/Changeling/Founders/Pah Wraith/etc explanation; the plane needs to start landing, and a Borg explanation is the closest runway.

It's interesting to me, as a possible storypoint or possibly just a handwaved plothole, that Deanna was so quickly discovered on Nepenthe. In season 1, the Rikers were so far off the grid that Picard felt safe going there when he was being hunted. How did Vadic know? How did Vadic know so much about everything? It makes me wonder if Section 31 experimented on Vadic/the Changelings with Borg nanotech and there's some sort of Great Link/Borg Collective stuff going on; possibly Vadic tapped into Agnes's Collective. Or they grabbed Kestra from the Academy and tortured her for information, and Riker and Deanna don't care.

I kinda miss Wesley. It doesn't feel right that he's not been a part of any of this. *ducks*

I admit that I'm curious if they'll be able to pull it all together and to find out where this has all been going. Hopefully it's been going somewhere.

I miss Wesley as well. Wouldn't be surprised if he pops up in ep 10 for like 1/2 a minute.

22 minutes ago, Peace 47 said:

On the flip side, everyone seems to be praising Riker’s reaction to Worf, and as I said above, that didn’t sit right with me because Worf was sharing an earnest reflection on how Deanna inspired his personal growth, and Riker is basically like, “Don’t talk to my wife like that,” and it seems weird because Worf moved on from Deanna decades ago, married someone else, hasn’t seen her recently, apparently, and Riker and Worf were very close friends, so why the weird jealousy played for laughs?  It seemed like the characters were in service of the joke, not the joke being in service of the characters.  🤷‍♀️

It's like there was no Jadzia in Worf's life and isn't it cannon from the books he marries Grikla? 

What bothered me alot was the fact that Vadic knows exactly what is going on with Jack but they played it like some 80s sitcom where the 1 person assumes the second person knows exactly what they are talking about yet person 2 is clueless and person 1 won't share. One of my initial observations is HOW DID VADIC KNOW?  The Dancing Doctor didn't know.  Had no clue what her son was/is going through yet Vadic knows.  Did she get a telegram from the Delta Quadrant? 

[Affogato]

40 minutes ago, greekmom said:

I miss Wesley as well. Wouldn't be surprised if he pops up in ep 10 for like 1/2 a minute.

It's like there was no Jadzia in Worf's life and isn't it cannon from the books he marries Grikla? 

What bothered me alot was the fact that Vadic knows exactly what is going on with Jack but they played it like some 80s sitcom where the 1 person assumes the second person knows exactly what they are talking about yet person 2 is clueless and person 1 won't share. One of my initial observations is HOW DID VADIC KNOW?  The Dancing Doctor didn't know.  Had no clue what her son was/is going through yet Vadic knows.  Did she get a telegram from the Delta Quadrant? 

I am standing by my belief that the face is the thing in Jack's head, and also the voices the semisolids like Vadic hear. I'm guessing the voices may be a race of creatures that have become disembodied. I guess we are going to learn the maguffin of how or why at some point. It seems Irumedic syndrome is key, and the Face may have discovered it in Jack by accident. Vadic knows because she is in collusion with the Face because Vadic wants to bring down and humiliate star fleet, and also is quite mad (apparently). I'm guessing the Face wants a home for his people.

I could be wrong about some or all of it, but I can see this being a pretty standard star trek sort of plot.

I think the Borg were resolved rather gracefully last season, when we saw that they could and would change to become something that might eventually  be something that other races could be friends with, loosely speaking. I suppose they could show up in the future, but I think Picard/Locutus made his own peace with the Borg.

Worf is not a hugger, apparently, but his 'personal space is a right' commnet shouldn't be taken as an indication that he didn't feel close to Riker and Deanna, and a lot of the bits and pieces, Riker's shred of jealousy, for example, seem to be there to remind of of the history of the characters, and not to be taken as open fires.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Affogato

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Francie said:

‘We have to just pick a story.’

 

[Chit Chat]

3 hours ago, Francie said:

On the flip side, everyone seems to be praising Riker’s reaction to Worf, and as I said above, that didn’t sit right with me because Worf was sharing an earnest reflection on how Deanna inspired his personal growth, and Riker is basically like, “Don’t talk to my wife like that,” and it seems weird because Worf moved on from Deanna decades ago, married someone else, hasn’t seen her recently, apparently, and Riker and Worf were very close friends, so why the weird jealousy played for laughs?

It wasn't really the right time for Worf to express those feelings.  They were in the middle of a crisis.  They didn't have time for idle chit chat.  Even Troi was surprised by this newer version of Worf!  He's there to rescue them, but let's pause for a moment of introspection!!

[TVbitch]

Tasha Yar was recently on General Hospital as Liz's mom, but was only on for a couple weeks and her story never really went anywhere ..so not that different than if she'd gotten a stint on Picard, and I totally don't know that because I still watch General Hospital. 😬 

I laughed at Worf trying to get in on the love fest at the end by announcing that he did contemplate sending the severed heads of his enemies to the gang as tokens of affection, but his friends stopped him. The rest of this episode was ugh for me. And I love Data. And Spot. But no. I will still take my Data decontractionated, please. 

Edited April 8, 2023 by TVbitch

[Starchild]

I wonder if this is a Borg plot to get revenge on Janeway for nearly destroying them as a species. 

The new queen realizes they have a backdoor into the Federation through Locutus' offspring, and they're going to use the big Federation holiday to take down Janeway (and maybe Starfleet/Federation too) in the most public way possible.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Starchild

[AllyB]

The thing with Picard's Irumodic Syndrome, is that in TNG he didn't really have it. He was diagnosed with in in the future that Q sent him to. It was largely a plot device to leave Picard uncertain as to whether or not he really was jumping between the past, present and future. In the present timelineof All Good Things, Beverly investigated and discovered that he had the potential to possibly develop the illness due to a small defect in his brain. A plot development designed to give Picard no certain answers while he worked out whether or not he was really time hopping. But the thing was, he was actually jumping through time and not hallucinating. The symptoms in the alt-future that he was experiencing were not Irumodic Syndrome but the very real time displacement Q was putting him through. The defect in his brain was real but no guarantee that an illness that he possibly wasn't actually experiencing in the future would ever develop. 

Edited April 8, 2023 by AllyB

[Francie]

15 hours ago, paigow said:

 

My conclusion:

 

 

[Affogato]

Jack’s resilution with behind the door guy will be like Data’s resolution with Lore. 

[cambridgeguy]

12 hours ago, Starchild said:

I wonder if this is a Borg plot to get revenge on Janeway for nearly destroying them as a species. 

The new queen realizes they have a backdoor into the Federation through Locutus' offspring, and they're going to use the big Federation holiday to take down Janeway (and maybe Starfleet/Federation too) in the most public way possible.

You mean they'll make the finale all about another series's character?  It worked out so well for Berman and Braga in the Enterprise finale (i.e. the last time creators were pilloried by the fanbase for ruining Trek).

[Starchild]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

You mean they'll make the finale all about another series's character?  It worked out so well for Berman and Braga in the Enterprise finale (i.e. the last time creators were pilloried by the fanbase for ruining Trek).

Well not exactly. Janeway would cameo and Picard would save the day.

[dovegrey]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

You mean they'll make the finale all about another series's character?  It worked out so well for Berman and Braga in the Enterprise finale (i.e. the last time creators were pilloried by the fanbase for ruining Trek).

They've so far made this season about another series' war and another series' villains. 🤷‍♂️ The Borg are at least relevant and deeply tied to Picard and TNG, while Janeway and what happened in Voyager's Endgame is deeply tied to this series' lead actress (Ryan/Seven).

[paigow]

Jack has already remote controlled the brain and body of several Titan Crew... So unless it was only possible because they each had Irumodic Syndrome, spreading the disease as a means of enslavement makes no sense.

[Sandman]

On 4/6/2023 at 10:56 AM, Peace 47 said:

Riker being so jealous of Worf greeting Deanna.  That was a scene played for laughs that was not true to the characters.  They’re all too good of friends for Riker to act like that.

- The plot and pacing of this show.

This. Oh, so, so much this! I’m not sure why the show went to such pains to trash the Riker-Deanna relationship, turn Riker into a jealous, emotionally stunted idiot (the death of your son was, what? The first time your imzadi — to whom you’ve been essentially psychically bonded for most of your adult life — was ever in your head? Whaaat?) and Deanna into a nagging shrew. Even to completely undercut what they had on Nepenthe — was it all for the sake of a contrived end-of-show reconciliation? Again, hard pass, writers. (Side note: The way some viewers feel about ST writers on black holes is basically how I feel about the treatment of telepathy: if the writers can’t work out the implications in a consistent way, they shouldn’t be writing about telepaths or empaths at all. Of course, I lack the authority of actual, you know, physics to back me up; but still!)

And I’m here for the nostalgia value as much as the next TNG fanboy, but, Mary-Sue Jeebus, that conversation around the conference table was p a i n f u l  — badfic-level clunky and slow. And at exactly the wrong moment in the rising action of the plot. Why are we all pausing to reminisce when, as the show keeps telling us, Starfleet’s Big Hoedown of Doom is mere hours away? I mean, don’t get me wrong, I’m delighted that Data (and Spot! Yay!) finally flushed that impacted synaptic turd of bitchy entitlement, Lore, but time’s a-wastin’, people!)

And thank you to commenter upthread who mentioned Tarantino Trek — that’s exactly what I didn’t enjoy about Vadic: her knowing tone and the smug, somehow performative badassery (even her smoking habit seemed calculated to underscore how thrillingly nasty we were supposed to find her). I guess there was a little bit of payoff in “Fucking solids.” But thank the Prophets we’re rid of her at last.

Does it even count as guessing at this point that Irumodic syndrome will prove to be some sort of mutation, incomplete or latent in the father, fully expressed in the son? A kind of X gene, one might say. 

[dovegrey]

6 minutes ago, paigow said:

Jack has already remote controlled the brain and body of several Titan Crew... So unless it was only possible because they each had Irumodic Syndrome, spreading the disease as a means of enslavement makes no sense.

I saw a speculation-only theory that ties back to Ro not wanting to use the transporters - possibly a contagion has been passed through Starfleet through the transporters. My speculation based on that would be it's Changeling revenge for Starfleet's Dominion War virus, or, possibly, it's the Borg silently infecting everyone with nanoprobes that can be activated all at once. If the Borg thought it'd be easy to assimilate the Federation, they wouldn't have needed Locutus. (And when Picard died and became a synth, Locutus was lost, hence why Picard's kid is so special?)

And it sounds like it's never been Irumodic Syndrome at all, based on what Data/Lore said in 3x7: "Soong research indicates an anomalous form inside Jean-Luc Picard. Previous diagnosis of Irumodic Syndrome is in question. Additional research establishes an inferior Picard. A perfectly imperfect Picard." That last piece of dialogue choice is interesting, because the Borg are all about literally achieving "perfection." Was he saying that whatever was in Picard's brain was meant to be there as a Borg imperfection? Or was he talking about Jack - the inferior Picard with JPL's perfect "imperfection"?

It's fun to have a show to speculate about again, even if, historically, this show does not land finales, IMO 😅.

[Sandman]

On 4/6/2023 at 8:50 PM, paigow said:

ETA - Shaw: Stop saying that!!!!

Love this — all the thumbs up!

And, speaking of swordsmanship, I did rather like the idea of Raffaella’s using swords, more efficient weapons though there might be, against the intruders, as a reflection of both Worf’s tutelage and, just possibly, her love for Elnor. 

Edited April 8, 2023 by Sandman

[ML89]

This week in  “spot the movie reference” - Jack shows up with a bomb like Leia vs Jabba in ROTJ, Raffi fighting like Teyla in Stargate Atlantis, the Data scenes looked like The Matrix when Neo and Trinity get their weapons, and Seven saying “get off my bridge” - Aliens or Air Force One? Although I was hoping, during Vadic’s endless yammering that Jack would echo Willow of Buffy and give her a “bored now.” He and Data complaining about the monologuing was a nice touch.

Odds on Shaw continuing to call Seven as Hansen turning out to be pivotal to the finale somehow?

Gang, I loved seeing you all around the table. But to quote another SF classic, there’s no time to discuss this in committee. Could you please have a reunion after everything’s fixed?

But I will say the Riker & Troi and Geordi & Data moments were the best. For whatever reason they trashed Nepenthe, it was worth it for that little bit of levity. But I’m so confused, how long ago did they lose Thad? I thought it was a year in season 1? It’s played like it was an hour ago. Riker went off to save Picard at the end of season 1 and then there’s season 2 and now it’s how much later? Color me confused.

The red door - it looks like a leftover from the Picard estate. If Picard’s crazy family is back there…

I love the idea that Picard’s wines are terrible. 

 

[paigow]

2 hours ago, ML89 said:

I love the idea that Picard’s wines are terrible. 

Clearly, his dearly departed brother had all the winemaking skills.. Implying that..

A. Picard has no skill

B. Laris has no skill

C. Laris has skill, but Picard refuses to implement her ideas

D. Vineyard workers sabotaging product in response to oppressive/ unsafe conditions

Edited April 8, 2023 by paigow

[FloatOn]

2 hours ago, ML89 said:

But I will say the Riker & Troi and Geordi & Data moments were the best. For whatever reason they trashed Nepenthe, it was worth it for that little bit of levity. But I’m so confused, how long ago did they lose Thad? I thought it was a year in season 1? It’s played like it was an hour ago. Riker went off to save Picard at the end of season 1 and then there’s season 2 and now it’s how much later? Color me confused.

I was confused about this too. Looking at the extended notes Michael Chabon wrote out for the first season that are posted are, he was 15 when he died and that he had been sick for 5 years when he died. Deanna says he would have just turned 18 when Picard is at the house in Nepenthe, so I guess it had been about 3 years. I think this season is 2-3 years after the first so it's been like 5/6 years even though the show is acting like it's been extremely recent. The notes also mention (and I think the show did too) how much their kids were supposed to love that planet and living there which makes the trashing even more blah, even if it did lead to some great moments between them.

[Cthulhudrew]

On 4/6/2023 at 5:04 AM, Francie said:

I read somewhere that the budget for this season was $100 million. It's a shame no one thought to use some of that money to hire real writers. 

Agreed. The pacing this season (and especially this episode) has been atrocious, not to mention much of the dialogue. The amount of actual story they've given us could have been put into half as many tightly written episodes. The rest of it has been endlessly drawn-out melodrama, circuitous babble and teasing out what will likely be a less than satisfying "mystery" about Jack Crusher. It's never a good sign when your own dialogue has one of your characters pointing out that another main character is talking in needless riddles.

I hadn't realized until this episode just how much this season was also relying on dramatic musical cues to try to generate emotional gravitas that the writing was failing to convey. I found myself wishing for the days of ST:TNG where they didn't have to resort to such handicaps.

On another note, I don't get why Seven staying behind with Jack was supposed to be such a dramatic moment, as it went nowhere (in spite of Vadic intimating how "ironic" it was that she decided to stay behind, thus supporting- to me at least- the notion that Jack's specialness is somehow Borg-related).

And why in the name of heck would they have an emergency evacuation door on the bridge? Dumb.

[Sandman]

7 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

It's never a good sign when your own dialogue has one of your characters pointing out that another main character is talking in needless riddles.

Yeah, ouchie. “Lampshading” is not a compliment!

9 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

… just how much this season was also relying on dramatic musical cues to try to generate emotional gravitas

Also a true observation. The Christopher Nolan of it all is getting to me.