All Episodes Discussion

[photo fox]

The story of a successful realtor who was attacked and left for dead while showing a home in what looks like a murder-for-hire, and the authorities are left to question his business partners and family to determine a motive.

[JudyObscure]

This reminded me that Josh was talking to a prosecutor on another Dateline, last week, saying that murder motives were usually about money, sex or pride and this was clearly a pride case.  Although the killer seemed unruffled when he was caught stealing those monitors he must have been completely mortified to the depths of his evil little soul.  Yet, as Lordonia says, he would never dream of blaming himself for the stupid action in the first place. 

 

His wife you guys?  It's one thing that this man went completely berserk but how did it happen that his wife went berserk along with him? 

 

Furthermore, what judge's wife has no teeth?

[Ohmo]

Obviously there was no excuse for carrying out this vendetta against the prosecutors, but I thought it was really harsh that the guy lost his law license and his ability to make a living.  I could see how that could really mess with someone's mind.  But, again, no excuse.

 

I'm not a lawyer and I've only heard this on these shows and fictional law shows (like HTGAWM), but I thought the general rule was if you're convicted of a crime, you're no longer allowed to practice law because you've been found guilty of a criminal act.  I've also heard that a conviction can bar someone from law school.  He lost his ability to make a living because of his own choices, especially if this is a standing rule in the legal profession.  I come from the field of education, and the closest "line in the sand rule" that I can think of is inappropriate (usually of a sexual nature) contact with a student.  Several professors routinely told my classes in college that if anyone ever did that, he or she would be out of the profession.  Done deal.  You're out, and everyone knew that rule.  Most professions have at least one rule like that, where the transgression is so egregious that there's no coming back from it.  So, no, I don't feel the least bit sorry for Eric's inability to make a living.  If criminal activity is the "line in the sand" rule in the legal profession, that's the rule.  It was his responsibility to know the rule and not do it.  He did, so he's out.  Not harsh at all, in my opinion, if there's an existing rule in place, a person is made well aware of it beforehand, and chooses to break it anyway.

 

I wasn't following why the killer's wife wasn't able to testify during the trial, only during penalty. The jury quickly convicted anyway, but it seemed odd. What did I miss?

 

If I commited grand theft, of course I would blame the prosecutor for taking away my livelihood instead of myself for stealing in the first place.

 

The show said that the prosecution chose to hold her testimony for the penalty phase.  It was an element of strategy by the state.

[ChristmasJones]

I remember hearing about this case in the news. Its a reminder how fragile life is- three people are no longer alive simply because another human being got mad about something and was sneaky enough to kill them.

[Mannahatta]

It boggles the mind to think that the theft of 2 computer monitors by a former judge could be in any way connected to the premeditated murder of 3 well-respected and well-loved people. I can almost see how a person might initially think that Eric Williams just lost it due to his conviction for the theft and the subsequent loss of his profession. But when you think more about it, the theft wasn't just an incredibly self-destructive and stupid thing to do - it was an indication of his narcissism and sense of entitlement. I guess all these crime shows emphasize a different angle and Dateline's isn't about examining the psychopathology involved - but I really wonder how he was functioning before the murders. Sure his resume looked impressive but what about his day to day dealings with people? It's chilling to think that a sociopath like Williams can have a thriving career in the field of law. This really was/is a sad story.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Mannahatta

[jenkait]

The most pointed moment for me in the show was when Andrea said, "Remember, this started over three computer monitors...  And now three people are dead."  Totally bizarre.  First of all, I can't understand why a judge would steal computer parts, he would certainly be able to afford them.  Second, I don't know why that wasn't just dealt with internally...going to trial seems like a waste of taxpayers' money.  Stealing computer parts is stupid/wrong but it's not like child molestation or something.  Third...yeah the guy was SCARY.  Plotting multiple murders for revenge...?  A reminder that sometimes you can piss off the wrong people with devastating consequences.  No normal person would react this way.

 

I thought duh, Mark slept with Cynthia and Mike found out and killed him.

 

Hilarious...LOVE IT!!  Also, FWIW Mark seemed like a cool guy, someone anyone would like as a co-worker or neighbor.  Sorry his life was cut short...  Mike and his wife, too.

 

But when you think more about it, the theft wasn't just an incredibly self-destructive and stupid thing to do - it was an indication of his narcissism and sense of entitlement.

 

100% agreed.  I just still find it boggling anyone would go to trial over it.  Maybe they knew who he really was and saw their opportunity to get him out.

Edited March 2, 2015 by jenkait

[tobeannounced]

Yeah, I wonder what else was going on.  I mean, if this was his first offense, why not plea bargain it down like they do for everyone else in the county.  I totally get that he was a judge and should be held to a higher standard.  I would think being forced to step down from that would be humiliating and punishment enough.  But then to lose your livelihood, IDK, it all just seems so punitive and makes me think there's a lot more to this.

[jennylauren123]

I'm surprised that so many think it's unjust to disbar a lawyer for committing a crime. Their entire purpose is to know the law and to uphold the law and to punish, or not punish, according to the law. And this guy was not only a lawyer; he went on to become a judge.

 

Would any of you hire a lawyer who was convicted of stealing two computer monitors? Would you want a judge who was convicted of stealing two computer monitors hearing your case? I know that I wouldn't. 

[LGGirl]

Yeah, I wonder what else was going on.  I mean, if this was his first offense, why not plea bargain it down like they do for everyone else in the county.  I totally get that he was a judge and should be held to a higher standard.  I would think being forced to step down from that would be humiliating and punishment enough.  But then to lose your livelihood, IDK, it all just seems so punitive and makes me think there's a lot more to this.

He could have been offered a plea deal but turned it down. If he is a narcissist, which he is, he'd never take a plea deal and want a trial, thinking he could win over a jury.

[emma675]

 

Two other epsides I seem to catch a lot are Shattered, about a young wife who was suspected of pushing her husband out of a window during a fight

Oh, was that the one from Tulsa where the young wife (who was pregnant, I think) pushed her much bigger, Army husband out of a window in their apartment? They had just moved back from Alaska where he was stationed and they were living in a new apartment building that looked like a big, round tower. She might have gotten away with it if she had kept her mouth shut--the cops brought her to the station and secretly recorded her basically confessing to her grandmother that she had shoved him out of the window. I remember her being so surprised that a jury had convicted her--she was just so young and spoiled and arrogant.

[Taylorh2]

I really don't understand why people in interrogation rooms don't know that they are being taped ?

[daughtersofanarchy]

Even though the wife got 40 years, she probably won't do all of them - 25 years, maybe.  Unfortunately, that's the way the justice system usually works.

 

I can't shake the idea that these murders were not the first murders this guy (and his wife) have committed.  In the case we saw here, the victims were probably more prominent, and more easily tied to this guy.  But there could be others who angered him over the years, and he dealt with them, but no one else ever knew about his connection to them.

[Ohmo]

 But then to lose your livelihood, IDK, it all just seems so punitive and makes me think there's a lot more to this.

 

It was indeed punitive.  That's exactly the point.  The man was a judge.  His job was to sit in judgment of other people in matters of law, which he no longer was qualified to do since he broke the law.  As to losing his livelihood?  That didn't happen.  He could have sold shoes, been an accountant, painted houses.  Heck, he could have worked at McDonald's, or done any other job for which someone might have hired him that did not involve practicing law.  He did not lose his ability to make money via gainful employment.  He lost the privilege of that gainful employment being in the field of law.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Ohmo

[biakbiak]

It boggles the mind to think that the theft of 2 computer monitors

 

It boggled my mind that stealing, I think it was actually three, most likely used Dell computer monitors was considered Grand Theft and a felony, but in Texas the amount for Grand Theft is $500. Seriously, he probably could have gotten the equivalent for under $500 on Ebay. He could clearly afford that based on his firearms collection alone and than three people might be alive. Of course, given that something was clearly off about him he probably just would have murdered some other innocent people over something just as petty.

Edited March 3, 2015 by biakbiak

[auntjess]

 

I'm surprised that so many think it's unjust to disbar a lawyer for committing a crime. Their entire purpose is to know the law and to uphold the law and to punish, or not punish, according to the law. And this guy was not only a lawyer; he went on to become a judge.

I didn't see them go into, though, whether he had requested them through channels, with no success.

Because I've known people who'd just go get what they needed in that case, and not try and hide what they did.

There are people who are really bad dealing with by-the-book departments, and if they're high enough, don't have to.

But apparently something would have triggered his if it hadn't been this.

[biakbiak]

Even though he said he talked to the people in IT, he said he never formally requestioned anything and what he was convicted of was removing them from the premises for his own personal use, not just taking them to his office for work.

[jenkait]

I'm surprised that so many think it's unjust to disbar a lawyer for committing a crime.

 

I don't think that's it, exactly.  Disbarring a lawyer for stealing DOES make sense...  However, going to trial for *anyone* over stealing some computer monitors from trial workplace...what?!  The crux of it is that it makes zero sense for a judge to be stealing computer monitors in the first place!!

[biakbiak]

I'm surprised that so many think it's unjust to disbar a lawyer for committing a crime.

 

I don't think that's it, exactly.  Disbarring a lawyer for stealing DOES make sense...  However, going to trial for *anyone* over stealing some computer monitors from trial workplace...what?!  The crux of it is that it makes zero sense for a judge to be stealing computer monitors in the first place!!

I agree the fact that it went to trial seemed odd, like why not allow him to pay restitution and resign; thereby avoiding getting disbarred. However, I guess the prosecutors believed that public servants should be above reproach, I imagine if the guy was just a regular attorney at a law firm the police would ever have been involved.

[zxy556575]

It's possible he asked for a trial since he had convinced himself it was all a set-up.

[ButterQueen]

I watched the new one about the Costa Concordia. It was horribly done.

[ButterQueen]

That case was so screwed up. Not much justice served.

[Sparkle]

Oh, was that the one from Tulsa where the young wife (who was pregnant, I think) pushed her much bigger, Army husband out of a window in their apartment? They had just moved back from Alaska where he was stationed and they were living in a new apartment building that looked like a big, round tower. She might have gotten away with it if she had kept her mouth shut--the cops brought her to the station and secretly recorded her basically confessing to her grandmother that she had shoved him out of the window. I remember her being so surprised that a jury had convicted her--she was just so young and spoiled and arrogant.

That's the one, all right! My favorite part is when you hear the wife's grandmother whispering to her in the interrogation room "Quit saying you pushed him out the window!"

[photo fox]

After a Long Beach, California housewife from an affluent neighborhood is murdered in broad daylight with the police just outside of her home, the authorities believe that there is more to the story than the suspected killer is telling them.

[CajunGirl]

Thank God Keith is back. I was starting to worry!

[JudyObscure]

I was worried about Keith, too!  Nobody's mastered that, 'You've got to be kidding," look as well as Keith.  The look that says: "The middleman really thought he was going to go home because he hadn't actually wielded the knife?"   "The husband  honestly thought we'd believe all those phone calls to El Coupon were pocket dials?" "Really?"

 

My own personal moment, when I didn't know whether to laugh or cry, was finding out the hit man did it for $5000 and spent the money on bedroom furniture.

[walnutqueen]

I love you guys SO much! 

 

Keith's hair is shinier & silverier than ever.  And those crowsfeet in his pink complection are perfection!  I could fall asleep to his dulcet tones every night, too (yes, I AM that weird & twisted!)

 

Bedroom furniture!  El Coupon!  Now, I DIE!!!  Hopefully the dumb cops standing on my front porch while I'm being murdered will trip over the bags of cat food when they eventually find their own asses and the way through my goat-trails, and my cats & raccoons will solve my murder and avenge me.

 

No offense meant towards any real cop reading my screed here, eh!  Seriously, you guys have such a shitty, thankless job.

[walnutqueen]

There's something to be said for the Darwin Awards - dumb criminals DESERVE to be caught on tape.  Do they not watch TV shows?  Ever?  :-)

[Mrs. P.]

I too was glad to have Keith's wonderful voice and facial expressions back in this episode.

This one was so messed up, but I came away from it loving Charlie. What a great young man - and how wonderful that he wound up with such a great family.

[tobeannounced]

What a waste of human lives all around.  So sad.  It must have sucked to be those cops.  I wonder if they were lulled into a sense of security because nothing usually happened in that neighborhood or what?  And there was more than one, so what the heck?  It never occurred to any of them that it wasn't a good idea to let her go back in the house by herself?  

 

The husband was a real piece of work, suing because they could have stopped the murder.  And then fights his son for his inheritence!  What a POS.  And he wasn't nearly as smart as he thought he was.  Should have used untraceable phones before the murder and assumed El Coupon was wired after.  Rookie mistakes!  I could commit the perfect murder from my education watching all these shows - lol.  

[CajunGirl]

Oh I'm laughing so hard I have tears... Because all of you called Frank "El Coupon," too.! My husband and I had a running commentary throughout the episode about "The Notorious El Coupono - Discount King of Hitmen."

I'm going to hell.

On a serious note, I'm so glad Charlie has become such a well-adjusted, smart, caring (and attractive!) young man. Thank God for Lynn's brother and his wife.

Favorite line of Keith's tonight was right before a commercial break... Apparently Fred wanted to tell his side of the story and Keith said, "DO tell...."

LOVE THAT MAN!

[jenkait]

Lordonia, you could be right.  I'd think TPTB would give a judge even more leeway for his "error" than a less higher-up person and present the situation as a misunderstanding, let him give them the stupid used computer monitors back and tell him next time to please go through official channels...kind of cover the whole thing up?  Maybe he dug in his heels and was a total righteous pain about it, and that's why they ended up prosecuting him?

[walnutqueen]

What a waste of human lives all around.  So sad.  It must have sucked to be those cops.  I wonder if they were lulled into a sense of security because nothing usually happened in that neighborhood or what?  And there was more than one, so what the heck?  It never occurred to any of them that it wasn't a good idea to let her go back in the house by herself?  

 

The husband was a real piece of work, suing because they could have stopped the murder.  And then fights his son for his inheritence!  What a POS.  And he wasn't nearly as smart as he thought he was.  Should have used untraceable phones before the murder and assumed El Coupon was wired after.  Rookie mistakes!  I could commit the perfect murder from my education watching all these shows - lol.  

 

Even the cop telling the story couldn't help himself from saying "they fucked up".  The po po had some eyes blackened that day, and I was kinda embarrassed for them. 

 

 

Oh I'm laughing so hard I have tears... Because all of you called Frank "El Coupon," too.! My husband and I had a running commentary throughout the episode about "The Notorious El Coupono - Discount King of Hitmen."

I'm going to hell.

On a serious note, I'm so glad Charlie has become such a well-adjusted, smart, caring (and attractive!) young man. Thank God for Lynn's brother and his wife.

Favorite line of Keith's tonight was right before a commercial break... Apparently Fred wanted to tell his side of the story and Keith said, "DO tell...."

LOVE THAT MAN!

 

That boy has such a pretty face and SUCH pretty eyes, doesn't he?  His MUM is still proud of him, from wherever she's watching this.

 

And as long as you're going to hell, swing by my house on your way, because I have a handbasket ...

[daughtersofanarchy]

The dog that barks at butterflies - what happened to him?  I sure hope he went with Charlie.

[woodscommaelle]

"Can you meet me at the Thousand Oaks Mall? You know, it's on Lynn Road." I laughed.

So glad there's comedy in this thread or else I wouldn't be posting. You guys are fucking funny!!!!

[emma675]

 

That's the one, all right! My favorite part is when you hear the wife's grandmother whispering to her in the interrogation room "Quit saying you pushed him out the window!"

I felt like it said a lot about that whole family that the grandmother's reaction was basically "shut up" as opposed to absolute horror at what her granddaughter was admitting to. And her mother kept saying that she didn't know what she was saying, she was confused and distraught. Maybe it's just me, but no matter how confused and distraught I might be, I would never be upset enough to confess to something I didn't do. Especially murder.

Edited March 7, 2015 by emma675d

[biakbiak]

I adore Keith! I actually needed to pause the recording because I was laughing so hard at his opening intro describing Long Beach when it ended with "and....a....very....long beach."

[Ohmo]

Well crap!  I missed this episode.  Does anyone know how long it takes for NBC to post the episode online?  All that's there now are preview clips.  Feel free to PM me.  An answer would be much appreciated.  Thanks!

 

ETA: In order, my favorite narrators are Keith, Josh, and Dennis.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Ohmo

[ElleBee]

Well crap!  I missed this episode.  Does anyone know how long it takes for NBC to post the episode online?  All that's there now are preview clips.  Feel free to PM me.  An answer would be much appreciated.  Thanks!

 

ETA: In order, my favorite narrators are Keith, Josh, and Dennis.

 

It's already up, Ohmo. I watched it online this morning.

[walnutqueen]

Well crap!  I missed this episode.  Does anyone know how long it takes for NBC to post the episode online?  All that's there now are preview clips.  Feel free to PM me.  An answer would be much appreciated.  Thanks!

 

ETA: In order, my favorite narrators are Keith, Josh, and Dennis.

 

Apparently there are interwebz cleverfellows whom I should be befriending.  And I am Dateline's bitch, because I love ALL the narrators, in no particular order!!!

[LakeGal]

I had to text my hubby that Keith was back. He has had to listen to me complain about the lack of Keith for weeks now. It was just a nice relief to see he is still part of the Dateline family.

I spent a lot of the episode worrying about the poor dog. But I am sure he went with the son.

[jojomano]

Twitter said the dog that barks at butterflies went to a neighbor for some reason. And...passed away

[Lizzing]

A couple of things in this episode didn't really make sense to me.  First, the guy who was the actual, physical killer/robber said he was in the house when the cops came.  The cops said that they waited outside for Lynn to get the gate key for a minute or less.  So, either the killer ransacked the drawers and house and killed Lynn in under 60 seconds, or he started the robbery process before the cops got there.  Why didn't either the cops or Lynn hear the ransacking?  The robber/killer guy certainly didn't strike me as super stealth or smart enough to quietly overturn drawers, all cat burglar like.

 

The other thing that I didn't really get was why Fred gave Frank so much money (did I hear right that it was in the $100,000+ mark?).  The explanation given was that Fred wanted to have Frank under his thumb, so did he start out their relationship with an eye to using Frank to kill his wife?  That seems kind weird.  I know Frank got the job done in the end, but from what we saw of Frank, he too wasn't the brightest bulb and there's GOT to be a better dude out there to find a hitman and to know you don't cheap out on hitmen if you don't want to get caught.  (I too love the moniker El Coupon!)

 

Anyway, ITA with everyone here that I was glad Keith was back.  I really was hoping that he'd fill in for Brian Williams because the nightly news narrated by Keith would be spectacular.

[A.Ham]

I loved the twinkle in that one detectives' eyes whenever he described the escalating level of fear "frick and frack" had. I am so glad they all got their assess handed to them and justice was served. I did not catch how many years each has in their sentence, but I hope it was enough for them to never be able to taste freedom again.

 

So the "aspiring hitman"/personal trainer killed someone to buy furniture from a store called "The Couch Potato"? Wonders never cease.

[zxy556575]

A couple of things in this episode didn't really make sense to me.  First, the guy who was the actual, physical killer/robber said he was in the house when the cops came.  The cops said that they waited outside for Lynn to get the gate key for a minute or less.  So, either the killer ransacked the drawers and house and killed Lynn in under 60 seconds, or he started the robbery process before the cops got there.  Why didn't either the cops or Lynn hear the ransacking?  The robber/killer guy certainly didn't strike me as super stealth or smart enough to quietly overturn drawers, all cat burglar like.

 

I didn't get that, either. Why didn't the guy just hide while the cops where there? Could he possibly have not heard or seen anything that was going on outside? But then, he did leave the house and run smack into the cops after the murder.

 

I can't really blame the cops who were there, to be honest. They were just doing a neighborhood canvas because of the creeper report, right? You don't knock on someone's door and think there's any reason not to let them stay inside their own house. Or I may have misunderstood.

Edited March 8, 2015 by lordonia

[biakbiak]

I didn't get that, either. Why didn't the guy just hide while the cops where there? Could he possibly have not heard or seen anything that was going on outside? But then, he did leave the house and run smack into the cops after the murder.

 

I can't really blame the cops who were there, to be honest. They were just doing a neighborhood canvas because of the creeper report, right? You don't knock on someone's door and think there's any reason not to let them stay inside their own house. Or I may have misunderstood.

 

He might have heard the cops at the front but he probably didn't realize that there were also cops in the back alley. And no they weren't just canvassing the neighbor saw the dude and called the police and specifically mentioned their house and their name. If even the other cops agree that they fucked up, I think it's pretty clear they fucked up.

[Lizzing]

Given the report from the neighbor that someone was spotted specifically at Lynn's house, the cops should have gone in with Lynn to get the gate key.  I used to have a very sensitive glass break sensor on my burglar alarm that would go off if something fell in a room, which happened frequently due to psycho cats chasing each other, and the cops would come out if I weren't home to call off the alarm company.  The cops, even after going around the house and seeing nothing open/broken in to, wouldn't let me go in my house alone to clear my alarm, even though I damn well knew it was a cat related alarm. But yeah, the undercover guy (who was AWESOME!  He totally cracked me up) flat out said the cops fucked up.

 

I still can't get over the fact Fred try to make a claim against the city for failing to prevent Lynn's murder AFTER he was caught on tape chatting with Frank and kept so much money from his son. What an epic POS.  However, I'm so glad the so was able to have a better life and did not stand up for his father, like those adult daughters in another episode a few months back.

[tobeannounced]

I too was confused about how events unfolded.  I did a little poking around and found this article.  I still have a lot of questions about the timeline of the murder, but this clarifies somewhat - http://www.csun.edu/~hcjou002/JTrial4.pdf

[Ohmo]

Thank you ElleBee and walnutqueen.  I found it!

 

 

Given the report from the neighbor that someone was spotted specifically at Lynn's house, the cops should have gone in with Lynn to get the gate key. 

 

I have to agree with this.  I can understand the cops not necessarily thinking murder, but they were there because someome called something in as a potentially threatening situation.  If you're investigating a situation where there might be a risk to someone, the last thing you should do is let that person out of your sight if you're in law enforcement.  Worst-case scenario, you're protecting someone from harm.  Best-case scenario, what, you take 10 minutes to sweep a house and determine it's "clear"?  (Says the woman who admittedly watches Cold Justice, Dateline, 48 Hours, and a host of cop procedurals).

 

It was downright gross for Fred to file the claim against the police department.  I know that a settlement with the city wouldn't bring Lynn back, but I wouldn't fault Charlie in the least if he brought a claim against the department, if for no other reason than to remind cops to be attentive.  Lynn was a civilian.  I can understand why her mind wouldn't have gone to any dangerous possibilities.  However, the cops should have known better.  A threat of any kind is a threat until it's proven not to be, and the cops hadn't done that yet.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Ohmo

[UsernameFatigue]

On the show, the guy who killed her described what happened before and after Lynn's death. He was at the back door and hesitating about killing her as he really didn't want to. As he was standing there Lynn actually came out the back door (I deleted the show from my PVR or would replay to get his exact words). In the pics shown you can see she is outside at the back door. That would explain why she did not scream as he was right there and I would guess was able to kill her right away. He then went into the house to grab some jewelry and make it look like a burglary. The cops in the back alley caught him as he was leaving the backyard. He had no idea there were cops there and asked them how they got there so quickly to which one of the cops answered 'neighbor'.

 

What I don't understand is why Lynn would have gone out the back door when the cops told her there was a report of someone in her back yard? And especially with the abuse she suffered for years at the hands of her husband. Was she going to unlock the gate manually from the back yard? Yes, the police should not have let her back into the house alone, but I am baffled as to why she was going exactly where she was told there was an intruder. Just sad all the way around.

[jenkait]

Thank God Keith is back. I was starting to worry!

 

I was actually starting to worry, too.  My cat Andrea passed away in October, and it seemed like every second week after that Andrea Canning was on (which is good, I like her) but I thought it was one of those things like when you're pregnant or TTC, everyone is pregnant?  Like maybe I was going crazy and Andrea Canning wasn't really on that often?  Because Keith otherwise seems to be on the majority of the time.  I too was wondering if his health was okay, glad to see he's back in any case!