All Episodes Discussion

[WendyCR72]

5 hours ago, Ohmo said:

CBS This Morning reports that the governor of CA (Jerry Brown?) has denied Van Houten's request for parole.  He went against the parole board's recommendation.

Hallelujah. She - and any of those murdering freaks - can get parole once their victims return from the dead and escape THEIR fate. Until then...

[ButterQueen]

15 hours ago, kat165 said:

I recently saw, on maybe 48 Hours or 20-20 the mother, Lee, and her side of the case. It was very enlightening. When I first watched this ep the father sort of gave me the creeps, but I couldn't really say why. After seeing the Lee's story I think I was picking up on some of the things she said. The son/brother was also featured in this story which added more to it and gave me a more rounded picture of the case.

I'm not believing the stuff about Lee being bi-polar. Whether Samantha strikes you as cold or whatever she seems a very happy well adjusted confident young woman to me. I completely believe her happy childhood story. Her brother is much the same. It appears to me that Lee did a great job with both her kids.

I can understand why Samantha is not really in contact with her bio father. She did the polite thing and finally visited but she grew up without him, loved her life with her mom and really had no reason to bond with a man who might be somewhat suspect.

I saw the mother's story On Demand recently so I highly recommend anyone interested in seeing a bigger picture for this story to check it out.

Thanks!  I would like to hear the mom's side, and also hear from the brother.  

[Court]

Parental alienation is a very real thing and happens in divorce cases. Lee took it to the extreme and fled the country with her.

 

Of course, her friends said they never saw unstable behavior and supported her. I'd bet they and her family helped her flee. 

Why ignore the outburst in the courtroom?

 

Again,it doesn't matter how Savanna is now or if you like the mom. That doesn't change the fact that what she did was illegal, wrong and hurt people in the process. She was wrong, period. 

[Fable]

I think they should release her. Where else is she going to go and get 3 meals and a bed along with free medical care?  Put her on the streets and see how she fares.   

[Christina]

People out there would fall over themselves to be chosen by her to house and feed her. After watching one of those shows about women who marry men in prison for life, I found an article by a psychologist who explained the attraction, then fell into a black hole on Wikipedia reading all of the different type of attractions to people in prison. Some people are attracted to the fact that the person is in prison, and therefore are unable to physically hurt them or cheat on them; some people are attracted to the fact the other person committed a violent crime, and some people need someone to save. There were like a dozen different attractions and after reading all of them, at least an hour had passed. 

I imagine she would have no problem finding a "savior."

[walnutqueen]

I am constantly amazed by murderers and serial killers attracting fangirls.  WTF?!?

[Ohmo]

California Governor Denies Parole for Manson Ex-Follower Leslie Van Houten

I found these quotes from this article to be verrry interesting.
 

Quote

The Democratic governor acknowledged her success in prison and her youth at the time of the murders, but he wrote in his decision that she failed to explain how she transformed from an upstanding teen to a killer.

"Both her role in these extraordinarily brutal crimes and her inability to explain her willing participation in such horrific violence cannot be overlooked and lead me to believe she remains an unacceptable risk to society if released," Brown wrote.

 

Later in the article
 

Quote

Van Houten's lawyer, Rich Pfeiffer, said he expected Brown's decision because of the political pressure put upon him. He said he will challenge the decision in Los Angeles County Superior Court, where he hopes Van Houten's parole will fare better "because the judges and the courts have less political pressure than does someone like the governor."

Van Houten's next parole hearing could come in as little as a year, Pfeiffer said.

 

I'm fine with her dying in prison.  The notorious nature of the Manson killings is too big of a mountain to climb, in my opinion.  All of the college degrees in the world won't change the fact that she participated in one of the most brutal crimes in recent U.S. history.  All life is precious, but a murder that is brutal enough to get national attention is a different deal to me than someone being released after serving time for a local homicide.  Locally, a community may suspect that person for the rest of his or her days, but when a murder becomes a national story, I always think that those people must have reached a truly depraved level to warrant national notice.  This would be like releasing the Menendez brothers or Jeffrey Dahlmer, and even more frightening than that, they actually did the killing.  Manson managed to convince other people to kill for him, and they actually did.  What else could Leslie be convinced of doing?

Edited July 24, 2016 by Ohmo

[Ohmo]

Anyone watch this one?  Kathryn Laird who drowned in a Montana river in 1999.  Husband was convicted recently.  Case came to trial after 17 years after the cold case was reopened.  Husband claimed it was suicide.

I think it was very likely that he did do it, but the evidence seemed on the light side to me.  I thought that the testimony from her brother the ophthalmologist was very telling. (I was very sad to hear that he died after the verdict.)  If Kathryn's vision were that poor, no way could she have found her way to that lake.

I also thought the neighbors who finally came forward were weird.  They waited 17 years and said nothing for all of that time.

[Cherrio]

On 7/13/2016 at 10:23 AM, Ina123 said:

There was just one thing that the Dateline episode never mentioned

There are endless pieces of information Dateline couldn't of possible covered in one show. The Manson story goes so much deeper with an endless amount of celebrities and musicians, not to mention NBC. Melcher was involved, along with his buddy Greg Jakkobson.    Dennis Wilson took Manson to his brothers home on Bellagio Rd. to record the songs.   One song was actually stolen, credited to iirc Dennis and renamed "Never Learn Not to Love" and ended up on an album.

Melcher and his friends were frequent visitors to Span Ranch and were involved in talking NBC into filming the family. NBC equipment was found on the ranch after the raids.

Tex Watson and Bobby Beausoleil had their own celeb connections too. Along with Manson all these friendships mostly center around Laurel Canyon. Manson, W., B. and some of the women were frequent guests of Mama Cass, Frank Zappa who owned the infamous Log Cabin. John Phillips and (again) many others. Oh and Neil Young was very enamored with Manson.

 Laurel Canyon was where all the musicians and their music started.  Sometimes you have to use the term music lightly, as The Byrds sang a little bit,  but were not even close to be considered  musicians.  All of their tracks, along with probably 60% of all the other bands were actually a group of studio musicians called The Wrecking Crew. Oh, and add in the innocent Monkee's living and hanging out with all of the folks in Laurel Canyon.

Roman Polanski seriously suspected John Phillips of the murders at one point and secretly went to his house to look for evidence.

After the murders the musicians and celebs for the most part clammed up or "forgot" about what went on. 

Then the violence continued with the Wonderland drug murders which was just as savage as Cielo Drive.   The list of celebs and musicians who went to that house on a daily basis for drugs (mostly heroin) is also endless.  Chuck Negron (Three Dog Night) was perhaps their best customer. He luckily passed out that day and didn't show up.  But, his wife did after the murders and discovered the bodies.    She is best known for having previously married John Densmore of The Doors, then Chuck.   She also had a relationship with Berry Oakley (Allman Brothers) and had a baby.   More recently she was featured on Intervention enabling her son who was born addicted to heroin thanks to her.

So, despite the great music of which I loved that came out of Laurel Canyon, a lot of the participants have dark, murky and ugly things in their past before, during and after Manson.

[Cherrio]

100% guilty.

[imjagain]

I thought it was funny (well not funny, just idiotic)  that the husband threw his pills and a half bottle of tequila in her vehicle. Like they wouldn't check what was is in system. 

Yes,  the neighbors waiting that long was odd.  

I'm glad her sister and mother took back her little dog! 

[Cherrio]

2 hours ago, imjagain said:

I'm glad her sister and mother took back her little dog! 

Oh yeah, that was great.  I couldn't stand that he took the dog.

[Stampiron]

Dateline loves to play up the intrepid cold case detective who makes a breakthrough in the case, but it seems like a lot of times the real story is that the original investigators didn't do their job very well.

This episode was a case in point: "Financial crimes investigator asks to look at the case with his 'actuary's eye!'" "Constructs timeline that spreads out across a long table!" But for all the talk about his forensic investigatory skills, the break was that he saw that the original investigators hadn't talk to the victim's neighbors, even though there was a report that they had heard something the night before. I mean, does it take an ace detective to see something like that?

I don't mean any of this to take credit away from the guy; he did his job right and deserves praise for that. But Dateline does seem to gloss over the incompetence of the original detectives in cases like these.

[Court]

13 hours ago, imjagain said:

I thought it was funny (well not funny, just idiotic)  that the husband threw his pills and a half bottle of tequila in her vehicle. Like they wouldn't check what was is in system. 

Yes,  the neighbors waiting that long was odd.  

I'm glad her sister and mother took back her little dog! 

This is what convinced me he did it.

[Ina123]

I have no doubt he was guilty but the best thing on the whole show was the mom and sister taking the dog. Him having the dog was just salt in a wound.

[Fable]

There was plenty of room for reasonable doubt in this case.  If not for the fact that the booze and pills were in the vehicle, even though Kathryn had no evidence of these substances in her system, and so were very likely planted, I probably would not have convicted.  I thought the neighbors were odd ducks.  If I was a juror, I don’t think I’d have given much weight to their testimony.  Of course, we only see snippets of the investigation and the trial, so I can only go by what was shown. 

[psychoticstate]

On 7/24/2016 at 7:10 AM, Ohmo said:

  Manson managed to convince other people to kill for him, and they actually did.  What else could Leslie be convinced of doing?

I believe Bugliosi said that Leslie was Manson's LEAST devoted follower.  And yet she still killed on his orders, according to her. What does that say about her?  Also, I have to believe there is a reason that Manson chose her.  I know it's been speculated that Manson chose those people he considered disposable but I don't think so.  Tex Watson appeared to be his right hand man and Susan "Sadie" Atkins was very devoted to Manson.  I think Manson chose those people he believed were blood thirsty and depraved enough to commit the murders and do so brutally.  That's what I think of Leslie.

On 7/31/2016 at 9:07 AM, Cherrio said:

The Manson story goes so much deeper with an endless amount of celebrities and musicians, not to mention NBC. Melcher was involved, along with his buddy Greg Jakkobson.    Dennis Wilson took Manson to his brothers home on Bellagio Rd. to record the songs.   

I think this was at the heart of the murders.  I think Gary Hinman was killed because Manson didn't like him and assumed he had money lying around and the Family needed money.  I think the Cielo Drive house was chosen as a message to Terry Melcher.  Manson knew Melcher no longer lived there.  If he wanted to kill Melcher, he certainly could have gone looking for him.  He knew where Dennis Wilson lived and while he made that threat with the bullet, I don't think he truly wanted to kill Wilson.  Or even Melcher.  He wanted to be successful in the biz without putting in his time or necessarily having enough talent or charisma to do so.  He was angry and threw a tantrum like a child would, only on the scale of someone who had been institutionalized for the majority of their life, who didn't want to leave prison and who hated the "establishment."  Heck, maybe Manson wanted assurance that he would go back in prison and never get out.  

Regardless, as Cherrio said, Manson had quite a few connections in the industry which would be quite a feat for your average Joe, much less for an ex-con.  Maybe that made things worse for Manson - - after all, he had these connections and STILL couldn't get his music distributed.  And one of his songs was allegedly poached by Wilson.  So he had to be bitter and angry.

[cooksdelight]

I spent the summer in L.A. visiting family when the trial was happening, and my aunts drove me to all the pertinent sites. The courthouse, where Hare Krishnas were chanting.... the Tate and LaBianca homes. I didn't really have a grasp at what had happened until I was older.

This is one of the best books I've read about the Manson family:

https://www.amazon.com/Family-Ed-Sanders/dp/1560253967/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1470361314&sr=8-7&keywords=the+family

[Cherrio]

18 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

I spent the summer in L.A. visiting family when the trial was happening, and my aunts drove me to all the pertinent sites. The courthouse, where Hare Krishnas were chanting.... the Tate and LaBianca homes. I didn't really have a grasp at what had happened until I was older.

This is one of the best books I've read about the Manson family:

https://www.amazon.com/Family-Ed-Sanders/dp/1560253967/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1470361314&sr=8-7&keywords=the+family

I second that book.   ooo eeeee oooo

[Yokosmom]

Quote

But I'm more inclined to believe the reason she didn't go running to the cops is because she knew the other family members were gonna come after her.

Not to mention, that when she initially fled, she was unable to take her daughter with her, and thus, was unlikely to say anything. I have no idea how much she knew ahead of time--she may indeed thought it was just a robbery or another creepy crawlie mission. 

Quote

 

My book picks are Helter Skelter by Bugliosi and The Family by Ed Sanders.   Sanders book will give those who are interested in the feel of what it was like back then your best description. He also has a great writing style and dug very deep for information.

Guinn comes along decades later after so many others before him did all the work.   He did the same thing with his Bonnie and Clyde book. I am not impressed.

 

Agree that the Sanders book gives you a real feel for the times, but really, he throws every wild theory out there no matter how nuts. I quite liked the Guinn book. His in depth section on Manson's childhood and family background hadn't really been covered much by others.  He was pretty good at describing the development of the Family and Manson's musical attempts.

Quote

 

I think Manson returned to the Cielo Drive property that night.   It would make a sick sense that he would want to see how well his minions followed his orders. It must have been gratifying to him.   There is no absolute proof other than the fact that blood types matching Jay Sebring and Sharon Tate were found outside on the front porch and neither of them left the living room area.   I think it's highly likely that if Manson did indeed return to the crime scene, he did not do so alone and he and his partner moved the bodies.

 

I think that he did too, although it isn't definitive. The blood on Sharon Tate's body was smeared all over her--the police and the coroner both mentioned that, I believe. Due to the geography of the canyon, he would have been able to see the lights of emergency vehicles well before he got there.There was a kid across the canyon who heard several men arguing around 3-4 a.m. that night. Their voices frightened him so much that he turned out his lights and went to bed. If he did go back, then William Garrison was doubly lucky that night. I'd love to hear an interview with that (now grown) kid, but, as far as I know, no one has ever tracked him down.

Quote

All life is precious, but a murder that is brutal enough to get national attention is a different deal to me than someone being released after serving time for a local homicide. 

There's no difference to me. Sometimes it is totally random which cases that the national press gloms on to. 

I have mixed feelings re the parole. Other people who have been convicted of awful crimes have eventually been paroled. I just wish that they would stop wasting everyone's time--the parole boards, the families, the governor, and even the prisoners themselves and just say"we don't care what the parole board says--it will be political suicide for any governor to parole you and it is not going to ever happen." I don't think that she is a danger after 40+ years (unlike Manson).

Quote

 Sometimes you have to use the term music lightly, as The Byrds sang a little bit,  but were not even close to be considered  musicians.  All of their tracks, along with probably 60% of all the other bands were actually a group of studio musicians called The Wrecking Crew.

I was under the impression that the Wrecking Crew played on only one Byrd's track, "Mr. Tambourine Man". And I guess that we'll have to disagree on the "sang a little bit" part.

[psychoticstate]

19 hours ago, Yokosmom said:

Not to mention, that when she initially fled, she was unable to take her daughter with her, and thus, was unlikely to say anything. I have no idea how much she knew ahead of time--she may indeed thought it was just a robbery or another creepy crawlie mission. 

Kasabian may not have known exactly what was going down on the night of August 8-9, 1969 but she surely knew on August 9-10, when the LaBiancas were killed. 

One of my biggest problems with Kasabian is that when she finally fled the ranch and was forced to do without her daughter, she didn't go to the cops.  I get that she may have been afraid for her safety and life but what about that of her daughter?  If the raid had not happened in September-October of 1969, what would have happened to her daughter?  Would Linda have just left her there?  With people that she then claimed were bloodthirsty murderers?  She knew they slaughtered a pregnant woman.  What would keep them from harming her child? 

I just don't believe that she was this innocent little hippie girl that Vincent Bugliosi made her out to be.  She may not have been on the Tex Watson-Susan Atkins scale of depravity but she had no issue searching Stephan Parent's bullet riddled body for his wallet on Watson's orders and 40 years after the murders was still talking about old Tex as if she were a teenage girl with the hots for him.  

[Cherrio]

20 hours ago, Yokosmom said:

then William Garrison was doubly lucky that night. I'd love to hear an interview with that (now grown) kid, but, as far as I know, no one has ever tracked him down.

He lives or at least used to live in Ohio. He has been interviewed and he was on a documentary, just can't recall which one.

I agree, psychoticstate    Linda Kasabian was no innocent.  I do not think she had the violence within her the others had though. But, she has pretty much been in trouble with the law her entire life.  Mostly drugs iirc.

[Lsk02]

Local news for those interested in this case. Police aren't releasing much info yet, but it's big news here, as you can imagine. 

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/police-pamela-hupp-shot-man-at-her-o-fallon-mo/article_128b6145-ba02-5f95-ba8f-d440fb92ea3c.html

[walnutqueen]

38 minutes ago, Lsk02 said:

Local news for those interested in this case. Police aren't releasing much info yet, but it's big news here, as you can imagine. 

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/police-pamela-hupp-shot-man-at-her-o-fallon-mo/article_128b6145-ba02-5f95-ba8f-d440fb92ea3c.html

Wow.  I'd love to know more about this story.  Too bad the only one alive to tell the tale is that lying fucking liar, Pam Hupp.

[JudyObscure]

Quote

From the article: It has also been featured on NBC’s “Dateline.” In 2015, an Iowa woman was charged with misdemeanor harassment for repeatedly calling Hupp, threatening her and demanding that she confess to the Faria murder. She said she was inspired by the “Dateline” show, according to a police report.

Not me, I swear it!  Now we wait to see.  First of all, I hope they check the local library to see if  Hupp and her victim were in  recently to get a will notarized.

[TaraS1]

For some reason, the two episodes I always watch whenever they air again are the one about the poker player who kills his parents for money and gets caught thanks to some great police work/circumstantial evidence, and the one where the elderly guy kills his two neighbors due to a property dispute over a piece of land that was the size of surfboard.

[Lsk02]

She has been charged with murder. 

 

http://fox2now.com/2016/08/23/pam-hupp-handcuffed-one-week-after-fatal-shooting-in-ofallon-home/

 

More info, and it's crazy. Apparently this murder was part of a scheme she had to frame Faria for hiring this guy to kill her.  She's in the hospital right now because she attempted suicide in her cell. You cannot make this stuff up. I hope Dateline does a follow up! 

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/pamela-hupp-charged-with-first-degree-murder-at-her-home/article_916845ac-de2f-5d1e-ae5d-2b11a25b7287.html

Edited August 23, 2016 by Lsk02

[walnutqueen]

^^^ WOW!

She really is a monster.

[Stampiron]

I guess Hupp had good reason to think she could do just about anything and get away with it, but man was this a crazy/stupid/evil plan. She literally got away with murder and then she decides to commit another one. What was she hoping to get out of this? To restore her standing in the community?  What a crazy, evil ****.

And let's not forget that Pam Hupp 's mother died under mysterious circumstances in 2013. She didn't show up for a meal at her nursing home and when they checked her room they found she'd fallen to her death from her balcony. I wonder if she'd had a visit from her daughter that day?

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/woman-dies-after-falling-from-third-floor-balcony-of-fenton/article_0efd5c3a-d8ee-5f4c-8509-03b17b3acc3e.html

[Lsk02]

I had no idea about her mother until that article today. She's seriously a monster. 

 

I'm wondering about the motive in framing Faria too.

[Stampiron]

I didn't read the article Lsk02 posted all the way through the first time. Pam Hupp did in fact drop her mother off at the retirement home the day she died, and when Pam left she told the nurses that her mother wouldn't be coming down for dinner and also probably wouldn't be down for breakfast the next morning. 

I first read about her mother dying over a year ago and thought that it was probably a stretch that she actually killed her own mother, but now knowing that Pam was there and gave those instructions to the nurses I think it's highly likely she did.

Dateline's revised edition of this story is going to have to be 3 hours long.

[mythoughtis]

Now the prosecutor thinks Hupp might have framed Faria.... really?

[A.Ham]

So let me get this straight, it took another man getting killed for law enforcement and prosecutors to finally put this sorry excuse of a human being behind bars? 

And for her to have taken advantage of/targeted someone with a Traumatic Brain Injury, I find especially heinous. I work with Intellectually Disabled adults, so a case like this is particularly troubling to me.

This man's death could have been avoided if the incompetent detectives and prosecutors had done their jobs properly, and if they didn't completely ignore all the flashing red flags around Pam Hupp. I mean, just looking up on this thread you can see where it was all going wrong but law enforcement dug their heels in and failed miserably at doing their jobs. Wonder how they sleep at night nowadays...

And then it looks like it's a high probability that she killed her mother too? What a monster.  Let me guess--was Pam a beneficiary in a life insurance policy for her mom? 

I hope some semblance of justice can be served here...

Edited August 25, 2016 by A.Ham
Fact checking is important. Blamed wrong prosecutor.

[Stampiron]

The police who arrested Hupp and the prosecutor who announced the charges are not the same as those who botched the Betsy Faria murder case. Different county, different jurisdiction. And in stating the charges, the prosecutor is saying what they believe happened. That's what he's supposed to do. Why mock him for that?

[mythoughtis]

Stampiron,

 

I did not realize that.  No disrespect to the new prosecutor ... but I still think the original prosecutor and the police department has some things to answer for.  

[Yokosmom]

Quote

That lady is going to hurt somebody again. Ticking time bomb.

FanOfTheFans called it, 8 months ago!

[Stampiron]

Anyone feel like going down this rabbit hole? I could type pages on this case, but I'll just start with some random thoughts based on what Dateline covered:

- Dateline mentions the Ramseys "pointing the finger" at various people, but in reality they gave names when asked and it seems they usually said "...but I can't believe he/she would have anything to do with this." I point this out because so much of the discussion of the Ramseys on the internet has all the objectivity of a lynch mob; they're seen as pure villains and every piece of evidence, every anecdote is viewed as negatively towards them as possible. While I do believe they are involved in a cover-up of the crime and while I do think the cover-up has caused harm to people, I also think they were doing what they thought they had to do - and were advised by their lawyers to do - and made at least some attempt to minimize the harm done to others. I'm not excusing them; I'm just saying I don't view them quite as harshly as others seem to.

- The "Secret visit from Santa Claus." The Ramseys were flying to Michigan on the 26th to meet up with John's older children, where there would be a second Christmas celebration and some additional presents for Burke and JonBenet. It's very likely that that is what JonBenet was referring to.

- Lou Smit, the DA's office investigator reportedly decided the Ramseys were innocent during his first week on the job. In contrast, James Kolar, who served as an investigator for both the BPD and the DA's office, said he spent months reviewing evidence before he felt comfortable making a determination. I think Smit took a look at the Ramseys and decided "Innocent," then spent the rest of his tenure on the case trying to prove it. 

- While Dateline says that every investigator they talked to dismissed the possibility that Burke was involved (which surprised me,) James Kolar does think it was Burke who struck JonBenet. He has a theory as to how it happened, but for legal reasons (John Ramsey likes to sue) he didn't print it in his book. On the other hand, Steve Thomas, a BPD investigator who wrote a book I haven't read, thinks Patsy did it. Patsy regularly woke JonBenet up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom (the bedwetting issue) and he thinks she just lost it and smacked JonBenet on the head with the flashlight. I just wanted to note that two investigators who worked the case and who think the Ramseys (or at least Patsy) staged the scene have completely different theories about what happened that night. 

- I was glad Dateline didn't spend much time talking about whether JonBenet was or wasn't the victim of on-going sexual abuse. That she was seems to be taken as a fact by many people, but I don't think the evidence is anywhere near conclusive. As Dateline said, different experts have given different opinions.

- I was put-off by Josh Mankiewicz's statement that JonBenet's life clearly wasn't normal simply because she was in pageants. Look, the world of child pageants is as alien to me as it is to Mankiewicz and it's not something I'd ever be involved in, but I'm not going to label them and the people who participate in them as abnormal just because it's not my thing or even because I don't really approve of it. 

Burke Ramsey is going to be doing a three-part interview on Dr. Phil starting Monday. I have no idea why he's going on TV now, but it'll be interesting to see what he's like and has to say.

[tobeannounced]

Well, this is my second JB show and my third JB thread, and I think I've gone down the rabbit hole and come out in China.  I can't remember what I've seen where and what I've read where, but the 911 operator they interviewed was definitely something new.  Once again, we have someone talking about their feelings about the parents' behavior, and I think most of us true crime devotees can agree that feelings about how other people should behave during times of unimaginable stress are pretty ridiculous to base anything on.  But if we want to talk about gut feelings, as a mother myself, the terror and panic is Patsy's voice on the 911 call seemed very genuine to me.  She's got to be a pretty damn good actress if she's guilty.

Also, I wish they'd talk more about the blow to JB's head because from what I understand there wasn't much blood, which leads certain people to believe the blow came after she was strangled, which totally blows the "parents bashed JB in the head out of rage and accidentally killed her" theory.

[Pickles]

So, if someone came in through the window and wrote the note while the family was at the dinner party--this person waited until everyone went to sleep and then sneaked into Jonbenet's room and carried her to the basement?  But, the detectives speculated Patsy never went to bed, since she had the same clothes on and all of her makeup. If she woke up to find her daughter missing, would she really put the same clothes back on and apply makeup??

She did sound hysterical on the 911 call, but she may be a good actress and/or it was setting in that she had actually killed her daughter. 

[JudyObscure]

Patsy said she got up and got dressed before checking on  Jon Benet, so maybe she's one of those women who puts on make-up before breakfast.  But would that sort of woman wear yesterday's clothes?  Or was she just talking about a little fuzzy jacket and not the same things underneath?  It might have been chilly.

My son had a serious, life threatening skull fracture from falling off his tricycle and the skin wasn't broken, so no blood. 

I always wondered why the police  were so sure  that the Santa Claus man couldn't have done it because he was over sixty and in poor health.  How young and strong do you have to be to carry a five year-old down some stairs?

 I think Burke might well have accidentally killed her.  My older brothers loved me, but accidentally broke my arm on one occasion and my collar bone on another, just from shoving while playing.  It didn't have to be that flashlight, it could have been the side of the tub or toilet. That would explain the parents saying with such conviction that they didn't kill her while still being guilty of cover up.  Patsy just seems like the only person capable of sitting in the kitchen long enough to write that three page ransom letter. The corny tough-guy lines from movies sounded like the Patsy we saw in that blurry interview with the police, "You're going down the wrong  road, buster." 

If my child had been kidnapped, I wouldn't have been able to think of anything else but getting that $118,000 together and ready to be dropped off.   To me, the fact that they let that appointed time come and go without mentioning it again is the single most damning thing against them.

I still don't feel like we know anything for sure.  Things that seem weird to me might be normal to others.  Laying out her Miss West Virginia gown and crown for the Christmas open house crowd made me embarrassed for Patsy.

Edited September 10, 2016 by JudyObscure

[Fable]

I have to reserve judgment with this case.  A lot of things just don’t add up.  Given the fact that the only real physical evidence seems to be the DNA of an unknown male, I am inclined to think that the parents did not do it.  Whether they were involved in a coverup is hard to say.  One thing that seems fairly certain is that law enforcement botched this case.  Supposedly they went into the basement but never bothered to open a closed door (which as it turns out is where JonBenet was), and they let people wander around the crime scene and even clean up…WHAT?  Sure there were things that pointed to the parents, but nothing decidedly conclusive.  My feeling is that law enforcement had no other real leads so remained steadfastly focused on the parents so they could draw attention away from their own incompetence in handling the case. 

Edited September 11, 2016 by Fable

[tobeannounced]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

My son had a serious, life threatening skull fracture from falling off his tricycle and the skin wasn't broken, so no blood. 

From what I understand, there was a 7-inch wound on her head which was visible.  Apparently their minister even tried to cover it up when John brought JB up from the cellar so Patsy wouldn't see it.

[UsernameFatigue]

I was actually disgusted with this episode as it seemed to be yet another attempt to point fingers at the parents, twenty years after the fact. I have never believed that John and/or Patsy, or even Burke for that matter were involved. This show just reinforced that opinion for me.

Besides the unknown male DNA on JonBenet's PJs, so many other unknowns - the rest of the paintbrush that was never found, the ligature source was never found, the duct tape source was never found, the suitcase, the flashlight that was not theirs, the footprint that could not be identified, etc. No to mention the marks that look like they come from a stun gun on JonBenet. Hardly something the parents would be using on their daughter. But actually the interview with Burke that was for some reason kept secret for 18 years just reinforced it for me. He says that Patsy came into his room saying "oh my gosh, oh my gosh' (I think it was). She was obviously looking for JonBenet when she did not find her in her bed. If she had killed her there would be no reason to go into Burke's room as she would know she was not there.  And it isn't like she was trying to create an alibi, as she thought Burke was asleep and did not wake him. Then when he heard his father tell his mother to stay calm and call the police (I think it was along those lines) - again makes total sense and not something they would need to stage, not knowing that Burke was awake and listening.

I was totally disgusted with the police woman they interviewed. She said at the first of the show that she came on to defend her police dept as they have been under attack for almost 20 years for doing a sloppy job. Then the show actually reinforces that they did a sloppy job. Sheesh. And she doesn't think the parents would have been convicted but thinks they (or at least Patsy) is guilty. No wonder the Ramsey's were leary of the police. And why would they have hired outside investigators to find the killer if they were the killers? They would have been like OJ and not done a damn thing if they were really guilty as they would know who the killer was.

I also was disgusted by Mankiewicz saying that JonBenet's life was not normal due to being in pageants. I don't understand the interest in them, but then where I come from they don't exist. But then again neither does worshiping high school football players and cheerleaders. Obviously Patsy grew up in the pageant culture, and JonBenet seemed to love it so as an interviewer who should be impartial I found his statement to be very unprofessional. 

[jumper sage]

Ok, that's 2 hours of my life wasted.  To go over the same old story - boring.  I did find the suitcase by the window interesting.  Why the pineapple?  Because the only prints on the spoon or bowl was mom and brother?  How many moms or older siblings give some of their food to little ones.

They never mentioned that Mr. Ramsey married the mother of Natalee Holloway.

[Lovecat]

32 minutes ago, jumper sage said:

They never mentioned that Mr. Ramsey married the mother of Natalee Holloway.

They dated, but were never married.

[jumper sage]

2 hours ago, Lovecat said:

They dated, but were never married.

Yep you are correct.  I guess I missed the break and new wife.

[JudyObscure]

8 hours ago, jumper sage said:

8 hours ago, jumper sage said:

They never mentioned that Mr. Ramsey married the mother of Natalee Holloway.

 

Wow, that is news to me. What a strange coincidence.

(Sorry about my head wound confusion, I thought someone was saying there was no blood because the skin wasn't broken.)

I think there's no doubt the police work was horrible.  Friends allowed to come over sit around and clean the kitchen inside a kidnapping/murder scene?  There's no getting around the fact that you completely dropped the ball, lady cop.  I believed it then and I believe it now.  This case plus Columbine had me thinking, for awhile, that Colorado police work was useless.

 In fact the police work was so bad,  I don't put much stock in things like the duct tape and paintbrush not being found.  John could have bagged it all up and put it in the neighbor's trash or his car and no one would have looked right away. They missed a whole body in the basement, I can see them not finding half a paintbrush if it was rolled under a cabinet. 

Burke's story is too vague for me.  Patsy could have been saying, "Oh gosh, oh gosh," because she had just accidentally killed Jon Benet or because  she couldn't find the duck tape, last seen in his room, or many other things. 

John saying,  "Calm down and call the police," could have been because they thought JB was missing or because they had just finished setting up a murder scene and were ready for the police to come.  I wonder why  John didn't call the police himself?

Why would a kidnapper kill the child?  If he killed her accidentally, why set up all the other stuff and not just run?  Why bring a tiny suitcase instead of a knapsack?  Why take her to the basement instead of out the kitchen door?

DNA on her nightgown after all this time could belong to anyone from the store clerk who sold it to the handy man who had used that room to store paint.

Yesterday, for the first time, because of this, I watched two whole episodes of, "Toddlers in Tiaras."  Now, I'm siding with Josh.  That stuff's not normal.  Little girls dressed in Playboy Bunny outfits.  Grown men in the audience, cheering wildly or staring slack jawed.  Mothers making little girls practice cheesy, butt wiggling dance routines for four hours a day,  Exhausted three year-olds sobbing from nerves and discomfort in false eyelashes and itchy crinoline.  Little divas ordering their mothers to bring them cokes, 'NOW!"  Spending $50,000 a year to teach their daughters to act like strippers when they could be doing team sports, tennis, ballet, art lessons, piano, violin, planting a garden, cooking with Mommy, or just swinging in the back yard.   There's no reason for this.

[cooksdelight]

When I was about 8, my little sister did something to piss me off and I put a pillow over her face and tried to smother her. I stopped, of course, but I wanted to teach her a lesson. Scare her a little. I think Burke had a moment with JonBenet when she did something to make him mad and he lashed out at her. Didn't mean to kill her, but it happened.

Why do I think this? That note. It's a long, long note with too much explaining and that money amount of John's recent bonus. I think the parents tried to cover up what happened so that their son wouldn't be branded a murderer. The DNA on JonBenet doesn't mean anything since it could have been left there at any time by anyone, innocently.

[JudyObscure]

I agree, Cooksdelight.  I played very roughly myself when I was little.  Everything I did, like slamming a book down on someone's head, was just cartoon stuff to us and we didn't think about lasting consequences. 

I also can't see anyone but Patsy writing that note.  Maybe it's just me and my own spelling lapses, but I didn't think those two misspelled words meant anything other than a nervous writer.  The police believing no educated person would really misspell those words seemed wrong to me.  All along they focused on the dumbest, little things and missed the huge ones.  They said they never seriously considered Burke because he was so young.   Kids accidentally send each other to the emergency room everyday.

[cooksdelight]

I haven't seen the interview Burke recently did with Dr. Phil (I think?) but he's been quiet up until now.