All Episodes Discussion

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, Annber03 said:

Also, if anyone honestly believed he was going to share any of that insurance payout with Bailey and Danny, they clearly have not seen enough true crime shows, 'cause LOL, no

Or believe the insurance company would just pay out.  Insurance companies would probably hold onto that and wait until her death was investigated.

I too thought Bailey was going to be fake because they really didn't look too hard for her, did they?  One aspect of this plot that I do think was all her was contacting Tanya with "info" that Justin was using again and cheating.  And using her real name.  Didn't she realize that would look darn suspicious if Tanya died?

Edited October 5 by Irlandesa

[Annber03]

36 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

Or believe the insurance company would just pay out.  Insurance companies would probably hold onto that and wait until her death was investigated.

That's the thing that always bugs my mom about people who kill for insurance reasons and think they're going to be immediately rolling in money afterward. She's like, "Yeah, that's...not how it works. At all." 

Quote

 

One aspect of this plot that I do think was all her was contacting Tanya with "info" that Justin was using again and cheating.  And using her real name.  Didn't she realize that would like darn suspicious if Tanya died?

 

Another example of just how ill thought out this entire plan was. 

That's the other thing that got me about Jared - he's such a controlling guy and yet he delegated the actual murder plot to other people. I kind of get the feeling he didn't try to go after Justin 'cause for all his tough guy macho bravado, he knew deep down Justin would probably kick his ass, or at least, put up a hell of a fight. 

[Sweet-tea]

This isn't in the right place, but I don't know how to message a moderator. Searched and couldn't find it. Does anyone know why Dateline doesn't have its own thread? It's hard to find discussions about specific episodes on this catch-all thread, especially if you don't want to be spoiled on shows you haven't seen. 

[AZChristian]

1 hour ago, Sweet-tea said:

This isn't in the right place, but I don't know how to message a moderator. Searched and couldn't find it. Does anyone know why Dateline doesn't have its own thread? It's hard to find discussions about specific episodes on this catch-all thread, especially if you don't want to be spoiled on shows you haven't seen. 

Click on the little icon next to the quote icon (exclamation point inside of a triangle).  That should flag a moderator.

[UsernameFatigue]

Just when I think I've seen it all ........ I haven't. Like others, torturing Justin to get Tonya to come out of the house made no sense at all. There does seem to be a piece of the puzzle missing.

Like others I was shocked that Justin's parents have nothing to do with their grandson because they blame Tonya for Justin's death. You would think that they would want a relationship with the only part of their son that is left. 

I did like Bailey's parents and that they did not sugar coat her involvement. 

All in all a very strange case, which I was not expecting at all at the start of the episode. 

Edited October 5 by UsernameFatigue

[TVbitch]

I wonder if they were torturing Justin to try to force him to call Tonya with some believable reason she would need to come out to the front yard, and he wouldn't do it.

I have a feeling Justin's parents thought him getting back with Tonya was a "wrong turn". She broke Justin's heart to run off with a total psycopath and the guy ends up killing their son. I can see where they might find it dificult to be around her, but I hope they can arrange some kind of visitation with their grandchild. 

[UsernameFatigue]

41 minutes ago, TVbitch said:

I wonder if they were torturing Justin to try to force him to call Tonya with some believable reason she would need to come out to the front yard, and he wouldn't do it.

I have a feeling Justin's parents thought him getting back with Tonya was a "wrong turn". She broke Justin's heart to run off with a total psycopath and the guy ends up killing their son. I can see where they might find it dificult to be around her, but I hope they can arrange some kind of visitation with their grandchild. 

It didn't make sense to me that they wouldn't just let Justin leave, then knock on the door and get Tonya and the baby. Why would you want two people in the front yard that you now have to deal with, you'd think someone might hear something if both Justin and Tonya were in the front yard and two people were trying to murder one or both. Or maybe it just boils down to neither of the killers being very bright.

I understand that Justin's parents blame Tonya, but by extension they are also blaming his son. That is so cold hearted. Their grandson is already 8 years old, and Justin's parents seem fine with making no attempt to have a relationship with him. Maybe Logan is better off without them in his life. 

Edited October 5 by UsernameFatigue

[Annber03]

24 minutes ago, UsernameFatigue said:

Or maybe it just boils down to neither of the killers being very bright.

The fact that the criminals were all involved with drugs to some degree certainly didn't help matters, either. 

But yeah, the only reasons I could see them going after Justin are to get him out of the way and make Tanya more vulnerable, and of course, Jared's jealousy over him. And while it would make far more sense for Jared to be the one to go after Justin, since he's the one who's got the personal vendetta against him, I can also understand his plan of letting Bailey and Danny commit the murder and take the fall while he runs off with the money. 

Still, yeah, the fact that two people who had no personal connection to Justin were willing to torture him like that instead of just...kill him and be done with it is a really strange element to all of this. And then of course the fact that Jared wound up killing Bailey in the end really threw a major wrench into everything as well, 'cause there goes his, "I had no connection to any of this" defense as a result. His greed and his jealousy wound up being his downfall. It's just crazy how much of a ripple effect his hatred had on everyone around him. 

I really feel for that poor guy who was driving by and saw the attack on Bailey, he was clearly still shaken up just recalling that day. I'm glad he came back around to try and help, even if it was all in vain. 

[rlc]

On 10/1/2024 at 11:20 AM, iMonrey said:

. . . it has to be the boyfriend. It's always the boyfriend.

That’s not fair- it is sometimes the ex-boyfriend, the husband, the ex-husband, or the soon-to-be-ex-husband.

[rlc]

This was a very sad episode. I have a lot of respect for Bailey’s parents, and sadness that Justin’s parents don’t have a relationship with their grandson.

I mostly found it hard to concentrate whenever Tanya was on screen because she looks just like Mama June.

[pdlinda]

On 10/5/2024 at 4:15 PM, UsernameFatigue said:

Their grandson is already 8 years old, and Justin's parents seem fine with making no attempt to have a relationship with him. Maybe Logan is better off without them in his life. 

I believe that Justin's parents have no place in Logan's life while he's still a child because they have a vendetta against Tanya.  The possible confusion they would cause by sliming Tanya behind her back (presuming they would have occasion to take him places)would offset any benefit he would gain from being in touch with them.

When Logan reaches adulthood (if the grandparents are still alive) he can decide for himself whether or not he wishes to have a relationship with them.

[GiandujaPie]

I agree that this Justin/Tonya/Jared episode was very sad. And I do give props to Bailey's parents for not trying to sugarcoat/make excuses for their daughter. I do believe the experience with his daughter probably made her dad a better cop as he stated he now has more empathy when he deals with drug addicts/criminals. 

The whole criminal conspiracy to kill Tonya for the life insurance money just seemed completely incompetent and while we'll never know what actually happened unless the guy who killed Justin ever speaks, it seems that Justin refused to cooperate with trying to lure Tonya out. 

I feel bad that Justin's parents don't have anything to do with their grandson but if they harbor such animosity towards his mother maybe it's for the best. I wonder if the aunt sees him as it appears she and Tonya were good friends outside of their connection through Justin. 

[badgerwoman]

 There  has been many, many sad stories on Dateline but this one hit me a lot.  I think part of that was Baily Sharp's parents and how they dealt with the truth of what their daughter did, and Tonya's continuing sorrow.  And the witnesses to Baily's death, still dealing with what they saw.  

[Annber03]

So tonight's episode didn't really hide the mystery around whodunit, it was pretty clear early on that Kari was involved in some way.

But man, those calls... Why, WHY do people who are involved in a murder plot insist on babbling to each other about it, via phone calls or texts, and constantly so at that? 

And why the hell does anyone talk like this on a prison call?! Those things are recorded for a reason! I had to laugh at Kari being all, "Stop blowing my phone up, we can't talk about that!" to Rebecca. I was sitting here like, "You know, Kari, you could put a stop to all of this by, I dunno, not answering your phone or calling her?" Esepcially since, y'know, they actually had a no-contact order. 

I honestly have no problem believing Kari could be super manipulative, despite being the younger of the two. Her girlfriend, the woman she claims to love so much that she was willing to get involved in a plot to murder her own mother in order to be with her*, the woman she called "my penguin" (...yeah, that was weird...) is sitting in jail, and she...is out and free and partying and getting all excited about homecoming. No worrying about how Rebecca's doing, no working to fight to get her free, no offering to take the fall to spare Rebecca a long stint in prison. 

Nope. She's just gonna keep on with her life, she don't care. 

That's not to say Rebecca's Miss Innocent in all of this, mind, 'cause she definitely isn't. She's older, she knew better, she's the one who decided to get involved with an underage girl and bring all that mess into her life (I was amused at her "Oh..." when Kari started talking about homecoming on that one call. Like it was another reminder to her that oh, right, she's with someone who's still very young). I have no problem believing she could be manipulative and controlling in her own way, too - see the way she talked about telling Kari to stay in her room that night. They basically fed off eech other. 

But yeah. I just found that interesting about Kari and how she dealt with the aftermath of all of this, and her girlfriend being in prison. 

*I kind of get the feeling Kar's relationship with Rebecca was the final straw in what had been a long brewing history of issues between Kari and her mom. I just feel like Kari's anger towards her ran a little deeper than, "My mom won't let me see my girlfriend, that's not fair." 

I feel so bad for Kari's brother. And their dad. My god, how heartbreaking. I'm glad Scott's in a better place in his own life now, though, and I hope that continues to be the case for him. And I hope his dad is getting the best care and support imaginable as well. 

[chick binewski]

What in Heavenly Creatures hell was this crime? I was with Keith at his low-key surprise that they kept letting these girls go after questioning. Kari seems to lie as easily as she breathes and I'm not sure that's something she would age out of. I do think she was the brains (for lack of a better term) behind the crime, but Rebecca was the one who was able to stab the mother 70+ times. (I did however find Rebecca's mug shot haunting.)

I'm not sure I remember a Dateline episode where my first impression of an interview subject changed so drastically by the episode's conclusion. Between his father falling into mentally debilitating alcoholism, his mother's murder and his sister's deception Scott had really been put through the wringer. His small request to Keith at the end to say something about his family was incredibly moving.

[Mondrianyone]

37 minutes ago, chick binewski said:

Scott had really been put through the wringer. His small request to Keith at the end to say something about his family was incredibly moving.

It's so interesting how opinions can vary drastically. I was very impressed with Scott throughout the episode--he seemed to be quite articulate compassionate. But that bit at the end made me kind of queasy. In spite of all we knew by then about his family, he seemed to want to retreat into some Hallmark fantasy. His mother had been having an affair, his father was an alcoholic, they had a lousy marriage, his sister was a homicidal and manipulative liar--but all Scott wanted to remember was this soft-focus, cotton-candy reel of happy memories. I hope that somehow serves him well through life, but I think I'd prefer to take a more realistic view of the way things were and build on that.

Kari lied like she breathed, but she was terrible at it. In the previews before the opening credits, I looked at her and said, "That's some awful fake crying. Who did she kill?" And this was prior to having any idea of what had happened. I'm amazed the cops believed her for a hot minute. (And I know Detective Viramontes from The First 48. He's a smart guy.)

[iMonrey]

"Down The Rabbit Hole" actually had me fooled, for once. I would have sworn it was the husband/father since they weren't interviewing him. I know they weren't interviewing Keri either but I assumed she was covering for her dad. Then I remembered, the episode began with the implication that two girls were dating so when they finally got around to Rebecca I realized what was going on. 

Really sad what happened to Scott and Keri's dad as a result of all of this. 

I don't put more blame on one over the other with Keri and Rebecca. I think they plotted the whole thing together equally.

1 minute ago, Mondrianyone said:

But that bit at the end made me kind of queasy. In spite of all we knew by then about his family, he seemed to want to retreat into some Hallmark fantasy. His mother had been having an affair, his father was an alcoholic, they had a lousy marriage, his sister was a homicidal and manipulative liar--but all Scott wanted to remember was this soft-focus, cotton-candy reel of happy memories.

Um . . . yeah. I mean, you never want to victim blame, but how great a mother could Mary Ann have been for her daughter to turn out that way? Good parents don't have kids who grow up to be the Menendez brothers, y'know?

[Annber03]

3 hours ago, Mondrianyone said:

Kari lied like she breathed, but she was terrible at it. In the previews before the opening credits, I looked at her and said, "That's some awful fake crying. Who did she kill?" And this was prior to having any idea of what had happened. I'm amazed the cops believed her for a hot minute. 

I noticed hos similar both Kari and Rebecca's interviews with the police sounded, too. Notably the part where they were both like, "I'm a good girl"'/"I'm a nice girl". 

 

Edited October 12 by Annber03

[UsernameFatigue]

13 hours ago, iMonrey said:

 

Um . . . yeah. I mean, you never want to victim blame, but how great a mother could Mary Ann have been for her daughter to turn out that way? Good parents don't have kids who grow up to be the Menendez brothers, y'know?

And yet Scott had the same mother, and he turned out to be an amazing person from what I can see. I don't think it is that simple, and I am also one who believes that some people are bad seeds from the get go.

Personally, I know people who had horrific childhoods who have turned out to be wonderful people, and also people who had amazing parents who were bad news almost from the start. And families like this one where one kid turns out great, and the other a monster. 

I only watched the first half of this episode last night as it was obvious to me from the start that Kari was involved and I did not find the episode interesting. I watched the second half today, and was annoyed that Kari's sentence was half the length of her girlfriend's. It was obvious to me that Kari was the "leader" in that relationship.  The fact though that the two of them conversed for a year with a non contact order shows how delusional and arrogant they were. I would imagine Kari still is. 

Edited October 13 by UsernameFatigue

[Annber03]

She also had no problem trying to pin the murder on that guy Zain, even though he had no involvement of any sort. I'm glad that they were abel to clear up that he wasn't involved before he wound up sitting in prison for years. 

[iMonrey]

The thing with Zain goes to show how easy it is to get a false confession out of someone if you interrogate them long enough and lean on them hard enough. They'll say anything just to make it stop. 

[Pi237]

I always think, I would Never confess! No matter how long they questioned me. I’d lawyer up asap. But sometimes these are young, vulnerable people, and thankfully, I’ve never been in that situation. Still, always surprises me when someone confesses to something they didn’t do. Don’t they watch the murder shows!?!

[Lsk02]

I was very surprised they were able to hold and question Keri for as long as they did, with her being a minor and not having a guardian present. I think they said it was over 7 hours. 
 

Even with a messed up family life, I would never blame her parents on her choice to murder her mother. And I understand where Scott was coming from. The only thing his mom is known and remembered for now is this, and he wants others to know and remember her for more. It really ended on the same note as most other episodes, with good things to say about the victim, but he took it there instead of the host. 

[pdlinda]

9 hours ago, iMonrey said:

The thing with Zain goes to show how easy it is to get a false confession out of someone if you interrogate them long enough and lean on them hard enough. They'll say anything just to make it stop. 

Especially when that person has some cognitive deficits.  I think I heard him say he has no "short term memory"????

[Irlandesa]

10 hours ago, iMonrey said:

The thing with Zain goes to show how easy it is to get a false confession out of someone if you interrogate them long enough and lean on them hard enough. They'll say anything just to make it stop. 

I thought the episode was interesting but this stood out the most.  They used  mixed lie detector results to get a false confession and I don't know if the results really were mixed or if that was just a lie.  And Rebecca passed her test with flying colors even though she was guilty. 

The sad thing is not every DA or cop is going to work hard to disprove a confession and an interviewee will still look guilty if they get a lawyer and refuse to do a lie detector test.

[ButterQueen]

Wasn’t the “bunny phone” recently covered on another show recently?

[Tdoc72]

9 minutes ago, ButterQueen said:

Wasn’t the “bunny phone” recently covered on another show recently?

Yes,I’ve definitely seen nit before, although couldn’t tell you which one. 

[ButterQueen]

2 minutes ago, Tdoc72 said:

Yes,I’ve definitely seen nit before, although couldn’t tell you which one. 

As soon as Keith said “bunny phone”, I stopped watching.

[Medicine Crow]

Keith & Andrea were guests on Kelly Clarkson's show today to talk about the new season.  Very interesting!!

[iMonrey]

"The Night of the Nor’Easter" - wow. I'm 50/50 on this one, I think I could be persuaded either way. I definitely have reasonable doubt.

The thing is . . . I agree with the defense, the wounds were not consistent with being backed into by a car. John was 6'2", he was taller than the SUV, especially if he was up on a curb. But he was clocked on the back of the head and his eyes were swollen shut. I also don't see how backing into someone would shatter the tail light. Plus the video of her backing into another car in that exact spot. Finally, that trooper was just hella suspicious. As was the inverted surveillance footage when they impounded the car. 

I don't think it's crazy to suspect a coverup by the cops, because that's what they do. I watch Dateline, so I know this to be something that happens. And everyone who testified against Karen was either a cop or a cop's relative.

[Irlandesa]

I think I lean the same way the jury did.  I don't think she intentionally hit him.  I don't think she intentionally left him out in the cold.  I do think it's possible she may have accidentally hit him but I'd still have a hard time saying "guilty." Something they talked about in this episode but didn't elaborate on is that the jury did reach two Not Guilty counts and she should have been acquitted on those charges while only hung on the 2nd.  But because of the judge's language where they were told they had to be unanimous on all charges they thought it meant they had to be unanimous on everything in order to render a judgment vs. reaching an agreement on a per charge basis.

Another thing that they didn't cover in this episode but really should be a companion case is the Sandra Birchmore case.  That was a case that took place in between the town where this took place (Canton) and a town 10 minutes away (Stoughton).  I'll spoiler this in case they cover it in a later episode but it's explains why I rolled my eyes at some of the defenders of the prosecution in this episode.

Spoiler

There's an Explorers program where teens/adolescents can learn about being police officers and hang out.  There's a history of police officers having sex with the participants in this program.  One of those participants was a girl named Sandra Birchmore.  I think 3 cops are known to or were rumored to have sex with her while she was underage.  She was killed in her early 20s by one of those married cops because she was pregnant with his baby. The Canton police department ruled it a suicide.  The Stoughton and Canton police departments and the same DA in charge of this case said it was suicide and no evidence of criminal activity.

The feds took over the case and arrested the cop for murder.  Spoiler Alert:  There is plenty of evidence of not only murder but his guilt.

And that's why I found myself rolling my eyes when the random extended family member said that, in order to believe a conspiracy, you'd have to think these people are sociopaths.  I mean, if you look into other things that have been happening in that area amongst law enforcement officers, it's really easy to believe that a lot of them actually are sociopaths.  Or at least very willing to engage in a coverup to protect someone else or doing things to boost the case against someone they suspect is guilty.

Edited October 19 by Irlandesa

[Annber03]

2 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Another thing that they didn't cover in this episode but really should be a companion case is the Sandra Birchmore case.  That was a case that took place in between the town where this took place (Canton) and a town 10 minutes away (Stoughton).  I'll spoiler this in case they cover it in a later episode but it's explains why I rolled my eyes at some of the defenders of the prosecution in this episode.

  Hide contents

There's an Explorers program where teens/adolescents can learn about being police officers and hang out.  There's a history of police officers having sex with the participants in this program.  One of those participants was a girl named Sandra Birchmore.  I think 3 cops are known to or were rumored to have sex with her while she was underage.  She was killed in her early 20s by one of those married cops because she was pregnant with his baby. The Canton police department ruled it a suicide.  The Stoughton and Canton police departments and the same DA in charge of this case said it was suicide and no evidence of criminal activity.

The feds took over the case and arrested the cop for murder.  

.

...holy shit. WOW. I mean, yeah, it's no secret police can be super corrupt and whatnot, so on that level I'm not surprised by this, but still. Woooooooooooow. 

But yeah, I'm with both of you, I don't know that I could make a definiitive ruling one way or another on this case, either.  was actually kind of confused at first when the episode started, 'cause I'd heard that this case had been in the news, but I didn't know all the details of it. So when they were talking about her driving away after her boyfriend went to the house, and then everyone started looking at her, I wasn't sure why they were looking at her, 'cause last she'd seen him, he was up at the house and then disappeared. I wasn't even thinking of the idea of her hitting him with her car until it was mentioned. The whole explanation of events of that night was kind of jumbled and confusing to me. 

I do agree that if she did do it, it was unintentional on her part. They may well have had a fight that evening, especially given they'd had a few drinks beforehand*, but I don't know that they really gave us much reason to believe she would've intentionally run him down. Unfortunately, the fact she'd had quite a few drinks that night certainly doesn't hlep matters in terms of her trying to remember how things went down. 

And the cops' behavior in the aftermath of everything REALLY does not help their case. That one cop making the "jokes" about Karen and the nudes, and the texts, and all that, uh...yeah. That does not help your case any in terms of trying to deny there was some kind of coverup. And then the attorney pointing out how the scene wasn't properly secured and the evidence was handled in a shoddy manner as well...that's the thing that pisses me off the most about these kinds of cases where there's some controvery over the suspect's guilt or innocence. Even if the suspect is guilty, even if you have proof that could indicate they were guilty, if you don't follow proper protocol when working the case, you don't get to be shocked later if the suspect goes free. Do your jobs the right way and get the necessary proof you need and that won't happen. 

I do agree, though, that the idea of cops covering up to protect somebody is really not that farfetched a possibility. It's certainly happened before. Cops always protect their own, that's just a thing. And if he was last seen at the door of the house and then disappeared, well, then logic would dicate we look at what happened in the house, instead of the person sitting a short distance away in the car. And then their behavior in the aftermath, with some of the things they said about Karen, like stated above, that doesn't help make them look innocent. At all. 

*Also, Karen's boyfriend was a cop and yet he wasn't like, "Hey, maybe you shouldn't drive, you've had a bit too much to drink"? Mind, if he'd had a few drinks as well, he probably wouldn't have thought about that, but...yeah. 

I will say, though, that Turtle guy or whatever his name is, is annoying as hell and I'm glad he's being held accountable for his role in fanning the flames. And I think the people who stood outside the courthouse were obnoxious, too. I'm all for showing support for someone who you think might've been unfairly accused of a crime, but there are far better ways to go about doing that. Harassing the famly of the victim and trying to rack up social media hits for your posts about the case helps absolutely nobody. Way too many people thinking they can play armchair detective and insert themselves into cases without the expertise needed for such a thing nowadays. 

[chick binewski]

I had not remembered hearing about this case, but when I went online after the episode aired reddit was chock full of folks declaring Reed innocent with several mentions of the Birchmore case.

I have to say I did not find Read credible and am surprised how much support she received. Read tells O'Keefe to check out the party to make sure they will be welcome or that they won't be walking into a bad situation. Yet Read looks away the moment O'Keefe is about to walk into the house, drives away then leaves a bunch of messages on his phone? 

The attorney stated there was a massive amount of evidence showing Read's innocence, yet I didn't hear it. It might have been a case where they didn't have enough to take it to trial. And police corruption might be involved. But as little as I knew about the case I couldn't help but feel Read played some part in O'Keefe's death.

I feel for what the family has had to deal with and for the niece and nephew, who had already been through so much.

 

[JudyObscure]

I read @iMonrey's "wow." and went straight to the site to watch it.

I don't know what to think.

I agree that his injuries seem more like "took a beating," than "hit by a car."

I do believe cops could beat someone up and keep it quiet. 

If I had nine mixed drinks I wouldn't be able to find my car much less drive it. 

How weird that this good looking woman is making a pass at a chunky old cop she doesn't know?

I hope the cop who was trying to find nude pictures of her right after the event isn't typical.

[iMonrey]

Karen was definitely a piece of work, so I can totally see her hitting the guy on purpose being drunk and all.

The problem is, we know where and under what circumstances this would have happened. It was snowing, the roads were slick, and she was just backing out a very short distance. She might have knocked him down backing into him but it wouldn't have killed him. I don't think it would even have knocked him unconscious. And it wouldn't explain the blow to the back of his head and his eyes being swollen shut. Possibly one, not both. It just doesn't add up. 

I think the family members just hated her, and probably knew she and John were fighting and that maybe he wanted to break up with her so they've convinced themselves she killed him and aren't willing to look at the evidence.

Edited October 20 by iMonrey

[pdlinda]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

And it wouldn't explain the blow to the back of his head and his eyes being swollen shut. Possibly one, not both. It just doesn't add up. 

I agree that there was REASONABLE DOUBT in this case.  That's the way our criminal justice system was set up:  If there's reasonable doubt, the jury must acquit (Johnny Cochran in the OJ case).

I don't think the State will EVER get a conviction!  They can try her again and I predict there'll be another hung jury.

Maybe the State can call the family in and explain the flaws in its case...most of all the police deficiencies.

Maybe the State can offer Karen a plea on a lesser charge (DWI or some other charge that she can plead to without admitting guilt for "murder" or even "involuntary manslaughter" both of which I don't think they will ever get a jury to convict her on)

One thing I would be curious to know....how much did Karen pay for Alan Jackson to represent her?  With the second trial looming, I bet it was near $1 million!  He did a masterful job and whatever she paid him, it was worth it!

[Lsk02]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I think the family members just hated her, and probably knew she and John were fighting and that maybe he wanted to break up with her so they've convinced themselves she killed him and aren't willing to look at the evidence.

I also think they were blinded by the “stand behind the blue line” mentality. They just couldn’t believe one of Johnny’s own would do this to him. 
 

I kept getting distracted by Dennis’s old interviews with Karen and the newer narration and interviews with Andrea. I wonder why he couldn’t finish out the episode. 

[Court]

I don't think she did it. There's a 3rd case where the same police department also covered something up. Maybe taking drugs and money? Some of the same officers were involved.  I can't remember but this police department is very corrupt. 

[TVbitch]

I don't know. But, at least convict her of the DUI. I mean .28?! She could have easily killed multiple people driving like that. Karen admitted to repeatedly asking others if she hit him or could have hit him, so it's clear even she doesn't  know what actually happened. In icy conditions, just barely bumping him could have made him slip and crack his head. I don't think she was trying to run him down though. 

Anyhoo, the craziness to me are all the "fans" of Karen who travel in and take off work and BRING THEIR CHILDREN to the courthouse to protest. Who are these people and don't they have lives and jobs and obligations? Do they put this kind of effort and energy into matters that actually impact their lives? It doesn't shock me, but I'm saddened by the escalation of "rabid fandom and celebrity culture" now extending to murderers and criminals and trials.    

[Annber03]

5 hours ago, TVbitch said:

Anyhoo, the craziness to me are all the "fans" of Karen who travel in and take off work and BRING THEIR CHILDREN to the courthouse to protest. Who are these people and don't they have lives and jobs and obligations? Do they put this kind of effort and energy into matters that actually impact their lives? It doesn't shock me, but I'm saddened by the escalation of "rabid fandom and celebrity culture" now extending to murderers and criminals and trials.    

Weren't there people who used to bring their children to hangings back when those were a thing? This feels kind of in the vein of that, although at least in this cae nobody's bringing their kids to watch someone die. 

But yeah, I agree with you, the people standing outside the courthouse are WAY too involved. I get being interested in true cirme in and of itself, of course - I mean, I'm in this thread for a reason, after all. But I would never dream of standing outside a courthouse and harassing the people involved in the trial or making a big show and a big to do out of everything. There is a limit to that interest and involvement, and way too many people seem to have no concept of boundaries with this stuff. 

And if people really, truly believe someone is innocent of a crime, and wants to show their support for any efforts to prove that person's innocence? There are far better ways to go about doing that. There are organizations whose entire job revolves around that kind of work. Support them and their work. 

[Lsk02]

19 hours ago, Annber03 said:

And if people really, truly believe someone is innocent of a crime, and wants to show their support for any efforts to prove that person's innocence? There are far better ways to go about doing that. There are organizations whose entire job revolves around that kind of work. Support them and their work. 

Only sort of off-topic, but the Innocence Project’s involvement with Scott Peterson has kind of changed my opinion about them. I know they’ve done some great work, but that one is just too much. 

[Irlandesa]

2 hours ago, Lsk02 said:

Only sort of off-topic, but the Innocence Project’s involvement with Scott Peterson has kind of changed my opinion about them. I know they’ve done some great work, but that one is just too much.

The Innocence Project  (the one we've all heard of) isn't involved with Scott Peterson's case.  A completely separate organization called The LA Innocence Project is the one who is looking into his case.

[LuvMyShows]

On 10/19/2024 at 4:35 PM, Annber03 said:

The whole explanation of events of that night was kind of jumbled and confusing to me. 

So here's the part that confuses me.  I'm not 100% sure of the timeline, but IIRC, everyone pretty much agrees that Karen drove to the house around 12:30. So let's say that she did run him over. Wouldn't all the other party attendees have noticed his body when they left the party? But none of them said a word about his body...it was Karen coming back many hours later that found the body.

That was part of made me believe her, along with what others have said upthread about how the injuries simply didn't match up with being hit by the corner of the car. And when that prosecution witness tried to explain about this very intricate way that Johnny would have spun around to hit his head a very specific way on the curb in order to sustain those injuries, I just rolled my eyes.

On 10/20/2024 at 12:11 PM, iMonrey said:

It was snowing, the roads were slick, and she was just backing out a very short distance. 

I also thought it was a short distance, especially since the curb was mentioned. So how on earth could the data have shown that the car was going 29 MPH?!?!

On 10/19/2024 at 8:55 PM, chick binewski said:

Yet Read looks away the moment O'Keefe is about to walk into the house, drives away then leaves a bunch of messages on his phone?

The nasty messages part actually helped me think she was innocent. As drunk as she was, I don't think that if she hit him knowingly (and intentionally), she could have convincingly left those messages.

 

On 10/20/2024 at 8:48 AM, JudyObscure said:

How weird that this good looking woman is making a pass at a chunky old cop she doesn't know?

We definitely learned some very unflattering things about Karen, including how she spoke to Johnny (and how she basically turned her back on those kids so abruptly).  So with everyone saying how great a guy he was, I am baffled by why he put up with her sh*t. 

[iMonrey]

Deadly Omission: Not much of a mystery here, more of a "Catch Me If You Can" situation. And I'm kind of annoyed about the whole sting operation being a red herring - the secret recording the sister and brother-in-law made yielded nothing. Hard to believe John was never arrested for the first wife's murder when he was so obviously the suspect. Harder still to think he'd be so brazen as to do it a second time, knowing he was still under suspicion for the death of wife #1.

I was also surprised to hear so many of these women describe John as attractive when he was average looking at best. I guess it goes to show how much personality can influence perception in that way. 

It's sad that Kasi didn't listen to her friends who told her she didn't need to make things work with John. Even the girlfriend stayed with him after finding out he lied to her about being married, and even after she saw the darker side to him. So many of these women who prioritize being with a man over their own safety . . . well, they wind up subject on Dateline, don't they.

[Mondrianyone]

I agree with everything above. I'd just add that it's completely understandable John forgot that his first wife was murdered and he was the suspect. I forget things all the time.

So, to visit the shallow end . . . Andrea had some real competition in the jewelry arena last night.

Dateline is trending on X/Twitter. Some of the comments are hilarious.

[Annber03]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I was also surprised to hear so many of these women describe John as attractive when he was average looking at best. I guess it goes to show how much personality can influence perception in that way. 

Seriously, I see the guys on shows like this, who are somehow able to wind up with so many women, and I always wonder what the hell I'm missing. 

Quote

It's sad that Kasi didn't listen to her friends who told her she didn't need to make things work with John. Even the girlfriend stayed with him after finding out he lied to her about being married, and even after she saw the darker side to him. So many of these women who prioritize being with a man over their own safety . . . well, they wind up subject on Dateline, don't they.

A lot of women seem to grow up believing that their lives aren't complete if they don't have a man, and they're expected or think they have to settle for just any old guy, no matter how shitty he may be, for fear they won't find better/don't deserve better/will be alone. At best they wind up with crappy husbands and boyfriends, at worst...well, like you said, that's why "Dateline" exists. It's really sad and lets men off the hook for way too much BS. 

On a lighter note, I loved Andrea's "Ew..." facial expression when the one woman talked about John suggesting they shower together. 

[badgerwoman]

1 hour ago, Annber03 said:

 

On a lighter note, I loved Andrea's "Ew..." facial expression when the one woman talked about John suggesting they shower together. 

Andrea was way more tolerable than normal this episode.  

I wish they had been able to do an interview with John just so we could judge his charisma for ourselves.  

[TVbitch]

I also found Andrea more tolerable this episode. ~Except for wearing a miniskirt and shiny pink tank to the site where the two women were bludgened to death, but, you know, Andrea gonna Andrea. 😁

Personally, after living with my ex (who was a decent guy) for 10 years, I love living alone and would never even entertain living with a boyfriend again.  

[pdlinda]

6 hours ago, TVbitch said:

I also found Andrea more tolerable this episode. ~Except for wearing a miniskirt and shiny pink tank to the site where the two women were bludgened to death, but, you know, Andrea gonna Andrea. 😁

Personally, after living with my ex (who was a decent guy) for 10 years, I love living alone and would never even entertain living with a boyfriend again.  

Agreed!  When I saw the mini skirt as she had convo with serious investigator, I laughed out loud...LOL

Also agree with you about living alone!  Pure heavenly BLISS... was divorced after 27 yrs "marriage" LOL...I felt as if the Governor commuted my life sentence...when I see these professional women falling for these LOSERS I wish I could "shake them into reality."

 

 

[iMonrey]

19 hours ago, pdlinda said:

.when I see these professional women falling for these LOSERS I wish I could "shake them into reality."

They don't see these men as losers when they meet them though because these men are very good at charming them and sweeping them off their feet. I get that anyone is vulnerable to that. What I find so sad is that so many of these women, including the ones featured in this episode, stay with these men even after finding out what they truly are - liars, cheaters and possibly even murderers. That they place more value on having a man than their own safety and sanity says a lot about what society tells them about their own self worth. 

I've known so many women who just could not be without a man. They'd get a divorce, maybe a second or third divorce, and the first thing out of their mouths was "Who should I date next?" 

Edited October 28 by iMonrey