All Episodes Discussion

[UsernameFatigue]

On 10/2/2020 at 1:29 PM, JudyObscure said:

Yes, what Irlandesa said.  All the videos made me feel like I really knew the family so it was all particularly awful when the bad stuff starts.   I prefer Keith or Josh's narration and the little bit of distance that gives us.  I also felt like I was invading the victim's privacy while reading some of the texts she sent her best friend.  Very interesting, immediate and heart pounding, but too dark for me.

 

It was definitely a more in depth portrayal of the couple. Interesting that the show was made with the approval of Shanann's family. I guess it would have to be, given the amount of footage they showed of Shanann's numerous video posts to social media. I don't think she had a blog of any sort, she just seemed to be posting on her Facebook page? Not to speak ill of the dead, but I found her incessant need to post videos of Chis, her children and their lives rather sad and a bit obsessive. But then I don't understand the need to continually portray your life as happy happy, rather than just live your life happy happy. How ironic and horrifying that in the end Shanann's life - and death - is on display for all to see. 

Edited October 4, 2020 by UsernameFatigue

[CrazyInAlabama]

A lot of the MLM companies have their members do the posting 24/7.    I don't understand it either, but it's pretty common.   However, that's another reason I don't believe anything Chris Watts' mistress said about not knowing about the pregnancy, and that they were still living together. 

[Melina22]

I just listened to the audiobook If You Tell about the Shelly Knotek story. The writing wasn't fabulous but the story... holy cow! Does anyone know if Dateline has ever done this story? I'd definitely watch it. 

[NoSpam]

6 hours ago, Melina22 said:

I just listened to the audiobook If You Tell about the Shelly Knotek story. The writing wasn't fabulous but the story... holy cow! Does anyone know if Dateline has ever done this story? I'd definitely watch it. 

Snapped on Oxygen did an episode. I believe it might be under the name Michelle Knotek. 

That bish was hella cray-cray. 

[Melina22]

1 minute ago, NoSpam said:

Snapped on Oxygen did an episode. I believe it might be under the name Michelle Knotek.  

I'll see if I can find it. It's really weird that I found almost nothing on YouTube. With such a compelling story, how has it not received way more publicity? 

[NoSpam]

Just now, Melina22 said:

I'll see if I can find it. It's really weird that I found almost nothing on YouTube. With such a compelling story, how has it not received way more publicity? 

I know! Maybe because there's no clear motive, unlike most Dateline episodes, and the victim count is too low to get the serial killer crowd interested? I remember the Snapped episode vividly, but I haven't seen the story covered elsewhere. 

[Melina22]

They don't really fall into the serial killer category though, although I guess 3 victims qualify as serial killing. It's way more a story of an abusive, sociopathic woman, and how she somehow made all her children, her husband and her victims into her enablers. It's so dark yet so fascinating. I would love for Dateline to do it. 

[cooksdelight]

I may be getting old, LOL, but didn’t someone do a story about this doctor’s death already? He looks real familiar. 2-hour show on tonight starting at 9.

https://www.nbcnews.com/dateline/video/dateline-thursday-sneak-peek-lone-star-obsession-93255749791

[Ellee]

I know wrong place but did anyone watch FBI Declassified - Saving Ethan?   About a little boy kidnapped off a bus and held in a bunker.   The bus driver did everything he could to protect the kids on the bus including giving his life.   
 

Still waiting for Vallow/Daybill to get their’s.   Should it be taking this long?

[12catcrazy]

25 minutes ago, Ellee said:

I know wrong place but did anyone watch FBI Declassified - Saving Ethan?   About a little boy kidnapped off a bus and held in a bunker.   The bus driver did everything he could to protect the kids on the bus including giving his life.   
 

Still waiting for Vallow/Daybill to get their’s.   Should it be taking this long?

Yes, I watched it.   It was okay and it was sad that the bus driver was killed but things turned out well for the little boy.  

This story looked like the inspiration for an episode of the FBI: Most Wanted which involved a child kidnapped off a bus.  

And as far as Vallow/Daybill, I think that the wheels are going to grind VERY slowly on that one.   They will of course blame Vallow's dead brother for the crime and say that they knew nothing about it until after the fact.   These people tried to cover their tracks.  I'm waiting to see if digging up the body of the first Mrs. Daybill finds anything.   Even though Vallow's brother died from a supposed heart attack, I have my doubts whether that was "natural" as well. 

[CraftyHazel]

7 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

I may be getting old, LOL, but didn’t someone do a story about this doctor’s death already? He looks real familiar. 2-hour show on tonight starting at 9.

https://www.nbcnews.com/dateline/video/dateline-thursday-sneak-peek-lone-star-obsession-93255749791

Someone has, for sure...because as soon as his name was mentioned, I remembered many of the details.

[Chalby]

On May 16, 2020 at 7:41 PM, Annber03 said:

Agreed with you all on the brother-in-law's behavior. It felt very...old-fashioned chauvinistic "Man must protect the little woman". And then he's getting all these other big bulky guys together, like they were his posse or something. It was very weird indeed. 

I also couldn't help being a little amused when Nick was talking about the guilt he felt over not being able to protect Sarah, and Andrea kept going on about he saw her the night she went missing, and he painted her nails for the evening out, and just kept on digging that knife in further about all the final things Nick had done with her right before she left that night...

...and then she's all, "It wasn't your fault." 

I also laughed at his so-called guilt re: not protecting her... He never had any intention to protect her and keep her alive. What an actor!

[sempervivum]

Lone Star Obsession: So the plastic surgeon was willing to put a hit on the other doctor because of his GREAT LOVE, but he wasn't willing to actually marry the girlfriend?

The 'friend' who actually did the murder was a real mystery. There was no evidence presented that he was so devoted to the plastic surgeon, was there? The voice over pushed that point a few times, but didn't really back it up. Or did I miss the part where the surgeon gave him a lot of money for the hit?

[UsernameFatigue]

16 hours ago, Marmiarmo said:

Someone has, for sure...because as soon as his name was mentioned, I remembered many of the details.

I am sure it was Dateline that covered the story before because Dateline itself referred to the episode as an update. I did watch the episode because I was wondering what the update was. I guess it was regarding the appeals, because nothing else was new from my recollection. How horrific for his kids though that their mother was killed by her 2nd husband, and their father was killed by someone hired by their father's girlfriend's ex boyfriend. If this was a fictional movie it would likely be considered too far fetched to be believable. 

[Annber03]

3 hours ago, sempervivum said:

Lone Star Obsession: So the plastic surgeon was willing to put a hit on the other doctor because of his GREAT LOVE, but he wasn't willing to actually marry the girlfriend?

Right? I kept rolling my eyes as he explained the reasons why he liked her so much-it always seemed to come back to what she did for him, and how she gave him the affection and attention he felt he wasn't getting from his marriage. I didn't really hear anything about how what he appreciated about her, something about her that made him willing to risk his marriage to be with her. Your point just adds to my skepticism about how much he really cared about her outside of what she did for him. 

And he had a new girlfriend when he was being interviewed about the murder, so for someone who had this "great love" with this woman and was also struggling after his divorce, he sure moved on pretty fast. I felt bad for his latest girlfriend. 

I do remember this story to some degree. Mostly I remember the bit about the guy being a great dancer and dating around and all that. Looks-wise, he kinda reminded me a bit of a creepy guy I saw on some other show once :p. Which is awkward. 

3 hours ago, sempervivum said:

The 'friend' who actually did the murder was a real mystery. There was no evidence presented that he was so devoted to the plastic surgeon, was there? The voice over pushed that point a few times, but didn't really back it up. Or did I miss the part where the surgeon gave him a lot of money for the hit?

I was struck by the bit where they talked about these guys meeting up all the time to drink and smoke and visit strip clubs. What a great way to get to know the guy you'll later ask to do a murder-for-hire for you. 

Also, this story is further proof of how these murder plots rarely ever work. At some point, someone either goofs up or spills the beans. It's inevitable. 

57 minutes ago, UsernameFatigue said:

How horrific for his kids though that their mother was killed by her 2nd husband, and their father was killed by someone hired by their father's girlfriend's ex boyfriend. If this was a fictional movie it would likely be considered too far fetched to be believable. 

Seriously, what are the odds, right? So awful. 

That reminded me of another tragic story I saw a while back on a show called "Shattered", where a woman was recalling the murder of her mom. She was eleven at the time of her mom's death, and she talked about how difficult it was, obviously, for her to deal with it (thankfully, they did catch the guy who'd done it-apparently he'd killed a few other women as well), and how she leaned on her family afterwards. Her mom and dad had been divorced at the time of her mom's death, but as she got older she went to stay with him (for a time immediately afterward she stayed with her half-sister and her family) and they kinda reconnected and bonded. And as the episode ended, she was showing how she'd moved on with her life and was coming to terms in her own way with her loss and everything. It was a pretty emotional episode to watch, but that ending had a nice bit of hope to it. 

Spoiler

Then there was a postscript that mentioned that after the filming of that episode, her father was murdered. It was such a gut punch of an ending-I actually cried upon reading it. That poor, poor girl. I can't even begin to imagine...

 

[TVbitch]

Regarding Thursday's rerun update. I don't think I've ever seen one where the prosecution appealed the outcome of the defense's appeal. I didn't even know you could do that! 

[NoSpam]

14 hours ago, TVbitch said:

Regarding Thursday's rerun update. I don't think I've ever seen one where the prosecution appealed the outcome of the defense's appeal. I didn't even know you could do that! 

Oh yes, this is done often. One judge overturns, prosecution asks a higher court to reinstate the original verdict. It works often, because courts don't like to overturn jury verdicts unless there is gross misconduct or significant new evidence. 

[NoSpam]

19 hours ago, sempervivum said:

Lone Star Obsession: So the plastic surgeon was willing to put a hit on the other doctor because of his GREAT LOVE, but he wasn't willing to actually marry the girlfriend?

The 'friend' who actually did the murder was a real mystery. There was no evidence presented that he was so devoted to the plastic surgeon, was there? The voice over pushed that point a few times, but didn't really back it up. Or did I miss the part where the surgeon gave him a lot of money for the hit?

I saw on another show that the girlfriend whom he supposedly loved madly was expecting him to propose on some holiday right after his divorce was final. Instead of a ring, he got her a Tea of the Month subscription! Nothing says love like a cheap gift. That's when she broke up with him. 

I've always suspected that he didn't kill the new man to win her back, but to make her suffer. There have been other killings like that... where the murderer killed the close friend of the ex, so the ex would suffer. 

The doctor's friend who did the killing was an odd duck. I got the impression he might be a little intellectually impaired. I'm sure the doc paid for all those lunches and strip club visits, so the hit man thought he owed him. 

Edited October 10, 2020 by NoSpam

[iMonrey]

Quote

The 'friend' who actually did the murder was a real mystery. There was no evidence presented that he was so devoted to the plastic surgeon, was there? The voice over pushed that point a few times, but didn't really back it up. Or did I miss the part where the surgeon gave him a lot of money for the hit?

I was at first inclined to believe the hit man was sort of obsessed with the plastic surgeon and how rich and successful he was - maybe imagining more of a friendship than there really was. But then those texts between the two of them were pretty damning.

[TVbitch]

Wow, a new episode. What a totally moronic murderer. He leaves his DNA all over the place, has stuff he took from the crime scene in his car. Leaves a note she wrote about him slashing her tires in her car. AND he's keeping a little journal listing all the reason she deserves to die and how satisfying it will be for him to kill her. Jesus God. 

It's easy to say she should have gone to the police after he choked her (and she should have) but I also understand how she would be terrified that would make it worse. How many women are killed by someone they have a restaining order or charges against. A LOT. 

[Ohmo]

8 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I was at first inclined to believe the hit man was sort of obsessed with the plastic surgeon and how rich and successful he was - maybe imagining more of a friendship than there really was. But then those texts between the two of them were pretty damning.

Yeah, the texts sealed it for me.  I realize that the doctor didn't explicitly say, "Yes, please murder him," but the texts proved that there was a plan between the two, and the two of them knew one another for awhile.  Meaning the doctor at least had some awareness that the guy was unstable.  Even if the shooter went "rogue," the doctor knew he was playing with fire by involving this guy.  For him to claim that he had no flipping idea that this was a possibility was just bogus.

Is it wrong of me to not think the girlfriend was all that?  All these men seemed to think she hung the moon.

[Ohmo]

7 hours ago, TVbitch said:

Wow, a new episode. What a totally moronic murderer. He leaves his DNA all over the place, has stuff he took from the crime scene in his car. Leaves a note she wrote about him slashing her tires in her car. AND he's keeping a little journal listing all the reason she deserves to die and how satisfying it will be for him to kill her. Jesus God. 

It's easy to say she should have gone to the police after he choked her (and she should have) but I also understand how she would be terrified that would make it worse. How many women are killed by someone they have a restaining order or charges against. A LOT. 

This is one of those cases that reaffirms the notion that dating just isn't worth it.

[iMonrey]

Forgot to mention, in Lone Star Obsession, I was fascinated by Andrea Canning's weird black pleather shirt. More so because she was wearing the same shirt when she was interviewing the ex-girlfriend and the detective. Did she interview them both on the same day? Or is someone else actually doing the interviews, and they just cut Andrea Canning into the footage?

[CrazyInAlabama]

I suspect with the interview type shows like this, that someone else is doing the interviews, and then the 'star' tapes their questions and reactions. 

I also guess that if a family, and others from the case don't want to be on TV, then the episode won't happen. 

Edited October 13, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[biakbiak]

6 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

I suspect with the interview type shows like this, that someone else is doing the interviews, and then the 'star' tapes their questions and reactions. 

Not usually on Dateline or 48 Hours. Does a producer working on the story do pre interviews? Yes of course. But the sit downs are usually filmed one on one with the interviews that aren’t being noted. They don’t always do it but they love to throw in brief wideshots, setups, or awkward chats with the person standing somewhere else wearing the same clothes or to stretch for extra footage. 

Edited October 13, 2020 by biakbiak

[TVbitch]

Was that Carole Baskin epipsode a new one Monday night? I am so sick of all things Tiger King that I just skimmed to the end in case there was some new development. Nope. It seems like everyone connected with that stupid show is nuts! 

[Irlandesa]

42 minutes ago, TVbitch said:

Was that Carole Baskin epipsode a new one Monday night? I am so sick of all things Tiger King that I just skimmed to the end in case there was some new development. Nope. It seems like everyone connected with that stupid show is nuts! 

I watched and regret it.  I haven't seen the Tiger King but it was full of a lot of no information, then internet "sleuths" giving their opinions--not even many experts.  Then wraps up with Carol defending herself.

Ugh.

[cooksdelight]

Carol is on Dancing With The Stars, they showed a little clip of her from that. I don’t normally watch that show and I’m sorry, but I cannot take one for the team and watch it. I’ve only got so much medicine for nausea in my medicine cabinet.

[MsJamieDornan]

4 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

Carol is on Dancing With The Stars, they showed a little clip of her from that

She didn't last long on that show.

[Ohmo]

On 10/13/2020 at 4:08 PM, Irlandesa said:

I watched and regret it.  I haven't seen the Tiger King but it was full of a lot of no information, then internet "sleuths" giving their opinions--not even many experts.  Then wraps up with Carol defending herself.

Ugh.

I have never watched one nanosecond of Tiger King.  This episode was terrible.  I hated all of the people except for the three sisters.  The only redeeming aspect of this episode was Josh, and I still had to struggle through it.

[biakbiak]

Nope! I get creating new content in this time is difficult but the “updated” segments in her home were jarring and was distractingly upbeat. 

[Irlandesa]

8 hours ago, biakbiak said:

Nope! I get creating new content in this time is difficult but the “updated” segments in her home were jarring and was distractingly upbeat. 

Especially because she was hinting at the missing woman being found alive.  I honestly couldn't remember but I was kind of hopeful given her upbeat attitude. 

[TVbitch]

For those missing new episodes of Dateline, I can recommend the first episode of The Con airing on ABC. I was expecting it to be some stupid "older woman gets catfished" Dr. Phil crap, but it was well produced and totally intriguing. The woman is not stupid; she met him as a reporter doing a story on him as a ground-breaking surgeon ~not on a dating app!  

[iMonrey]

I don't remember seeing this rerun about the missing realtor, but I knew she was dead from the start because everyone kept referring to her in the past tense! Way to spoil the surprise there, Dateline. 

RE: Carole Baskin, I did watch Tiger King and my main takeaway was that she killed her husband. The cavalier attitude she had about him being missing and the way she just laughed at the idea of people accusing her of killing him was chilling. She definitely has a screw loose. There were also all sorts of fishy behavior on her part about her husband's assets that Dateline didn't cover.

[MsJamieDornan]

7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Carole Baskin, I did watch Tiger King and my main takeaway was that she killed her husband. The cavalier attitude she had about him being missing and the way she just laughed at the idea of people accusing her of killing him was chilling.

Who is the idiot that decided to let her be on Dancing With The Stars ?  They have had some crappy politicians but geez,,,,a suspected murderer ?

[Ohmo]

Helene: She had quite the friend in Kimberly, and it was unusual to see a crime where the criminal and the victim had no ties to each other.  With The Client and this case, we've seen two examples back-to-back.

It creeped me out that the guy said he was a serial killer of one.  Good that he appears to not have killed anyone else, but to just go on and live the next 40 years shows a lack of remorse.  I'm glad he was eventually caught.

[TVbitch]

Episodes like Helene make me think rapists should get life sentences. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

I saw the Dateline older rerun yesterday afternoon about the bizarre pipe bomb attacks on Connie Hoagland in San Diego.   She was lucky to survive, and recover as much as she has.   She had severe leg and foot injuries.   Connie worked at a day care, and often took her grandson with her to the school, fortunately that day she didn't or he would have been in the car when the bomb went off. 

In a good turn, all three of their children listened to the case against their father, and stood by their mother.    In the original attempt, a first bomb fell off of the car bottom, and was found and disarmed by the bomb squad, but until the second attempt the police had no way of finding out who planted it, or who the target was. 

It turned out her husband Larry did it (he was convicted), and was sentenced to life, which in California means 20 years until any chance of parole.   Larry Hoagland was also having a years long affair with his high school sweetheart in Pennsylvania.     Wife didn't know about the affair, and mistress thought he was divorcing. 

 Larry's business partner found a lot of emails on his computer at work with messages, and photos from the girlfriend.   The partner also found a lot of videos of how to build and detonate a pipe bomb on his computer.  After the bombing is when the partner found the bombing information, he realized Larry did it, so did a screen shot, downloaded to a thumb drive, and got out of the office, and told the police what he found. 

Larry was such a liar that he told the mistress that he was declaring bankruptcy, divorcing, and it was a lie too.   He was still living with his wife, and she had no clue about the mistress. 

Larry actually called the wife in the hospital (his children were allowed into the hospital room with their mother, but not the husband) from the waiting room, and his daughter answered, and he told the daughter to tell the mother he was having an affair.    Larry Hoagland was arrested while his wife was still in the hospital, and she divorced him before the trial started.    He tried to blame the bombing on his former business partner, and claimed some homeless man did it.  

Edited October 17, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[patty1h]

I love episodes like last nights "A Promise to Helene", where a cold case gets closed and justice finally prevails.   This young woman Helene was raped and murdered 40 years ago and DNA evidence finally got a match.   

I hate all of the MFers who do a heinous crime like this one, then walk away.   It's so wrong that they go on with their "normal" life with this dark secret, sometimes going to their grave with no consequences.   Watching these dirtbags being picked up from their home, where they sleep at night with their wife/kids, and finally dragged out into the light is oh so satisfying.    This guy was found in Florida, with a family and working as a trucker.  Great that he finally got caught, but it sucks that he had so many years of freedom.   Bless all of the dedicated law enforcement people who didn't give up. 

[Ohmo]

20 hours ago, TVbitch said:

Episodes like Helene make me think rapists should get life sentences. 

I don't know that i would say that, but I would agree that a rape during the commission of a murder should become like the murder, meaning you can investigate it forever with no statute of limitations.  I also would agree that the sentences for rape should be longer.  I think an automatic life sentence for every case would put a strain on our prison system, and it gets us in the same trouble as automatic sentences for drugs.  I'm leery of not having any leeway to consider the circumstances of individual cases.

For this case, I think law enforcement should have been allowed to prosecute him for both rape and murder, no matter how long ago it was.

[iMonrey]

What's tragic is this guy got to live a full life for 40 years without ever having to pay for what he did. He's caught now, but it's hard to see justice in that.

[JudyObscure]

Something about Helene, her radiant smile, her lack of fight, made me think maybe there was something so special about her that she really did change him.  He had raped before and planned to go on raping with the added thrill of murder, but something about Helene haunted him enough to stop.  He was also very quick, almost eager, to confess, the way a person with a conscience would be.  Maybe it caught me in a weak moment, but I'd like to think that some of her goodness wiped out some of his evil and  that Helene has been happily singing in a heavenly choir all this time with no memory of how she died.

[applecrisp]

Her poor friend had so much tragedy in her life. Husband dying and son taking his own life

[hookedontv]

3 hours ago, applecrisp said:

Her poor friend had so much tragedy in her life. Husband dying and son taking his own life

That friend (sorry, can't remember the name) is one-in-a-million that's for sure. I truly hope she finds happiness despite all the tragedy that has been thrown her way. In addition to being determined and strong, she seems like a really lovely person. 

[EtheltoTillie]

Hey, I meant to post something earlier that I thought of.  This case rested on their using the new DNA technology to find the guilty party--who was then singled out for having been recently paroled from a rape charge in that town.  I thought wow, what an opportunity missed.  I watch a lot of true and fictional crime shows and read a lot of detective novels.  It seems that standard shoe leather detective work would have had them looking at recent parolees.  Isn't that a technique you've seen before? 

[crowsworks]

The Madison Holton case where he was accused of killing his parentd? 11 Minutes

Wow did that Sheriff cover for his son... who left the scene where a guy was totallly zonked on drugs - had hs teen son handcuffed - and left his wife alone with him. 11 minutes after he left both parents were dead and the kid - still handcuffed ran a long way to the next house to get help.

OK dad had scratches on his face, his DNA under her nails. she was shot and so was he.

The kid had 0 residue/blood on him  - begged repeatedly for a lie detector test and was refused - so of course the arrested him for homicide. Cause he wasn't cryin'

I think there were two dads out to get this kid. The sheriff couldn't/wouldn't admit that his son screwed up and his own stoned dad who couldn't let his wife go and was willing to use his kids dumb behavior to win her back.

 

[Annber03]

"What can you tell me about Jeff?"

"Can you say 'manwhore'?"

LMAO, okay, then :D! Just laying it all out there. 

I remember seeing this story on another show earlier this year! So much stupidity involved, it was crazy. I remember the stuff about the fries-interesting little detail-and Cindy and Jeff texting and talking with each other during and after the time she and Michael were at church the night of the murder. 

I love how Cindy apparently got all upset about the rumors of her and Jeff having an affair, to the point where she resigned from the church over it, and then during her interview with the investigator, we get this:

"When did you start the affair?"

"Right around the time I resigned."

Um....

To say nothing of how she's so offended about that, yet apparently has photos of both herself and her husband and herself and Jeff right next to each other in her office. Wow. I don't remember hearing that bit in the other show that covered this story. And then Jeff being all, "It was nasty" when talking about Cindy telling him about having sex with Michael, meanwhile he's sexting her and there's naked pictures* and apparently, according to the one guy, he's a "manwhore". Amazing.

*On that note, I was amused at how often they kept playing that clip of the guy mentioning rumors of people having sex in the parking garage. 

Whichever one of them shot Michael, I have no doubt the other knew and was involved in the plotting. So yeah. They both deserve to be where they are. 

[cooksdelight]

I knew as soon as police started talking to the wife that she was involved, along with the pastor. Manwhore is not a severe enough name for that guy.

[LittleIggy]

15 minutes ago, cooksdelight said:

I knew as soon as police started talking to the wife that she was involved, along with the pastor. Manwhore is not a severe enough name for that guy.

I really felt for the prosecutor who said “you couldn’t believe” how many naked pictures of the cheaters/killers he had to go through. Poor guy! Hope he got hazardous duty pay! He may have PTSD now. 😆

[Annber03]

2 minutes ago, LittleIggy said:

I really felt for the prosecutor who said “you couldn’t believe” how many naked pictures of the cheaters/killers he had to go through. Poor guy! Hope he got hazardous duty pay! He may have PTSD now. 😆

That was hilarious. But yeah, agreed, poor guy. 

And then there was that moment where people initially refused to believe Cindy and Jeff were hooking up in a vehicle because they were too big to fit inside it. That's....an interesting argument to go with :p.

(And having sex in a pest control car. Oh, yeah. That's hot.)