All Episodes Discussion

[ridethemaverick]

I'm almost never affected anymore but this one got to me. I think it was the fact that two separate men on two separate occasions woke up and (as the one mom pointed out) went to the park on a beautiful day and decided to rape and kill a little girl. No biggie. Just saw them and took them for their own gratification. I'm angry and DISGUSTED because I know there are plenty more where they came from. What is wrong with some men? I don't get it.

Edited April 6, 2019 by ridethemaverick

[sempervivum]

9 hours ago, ridethemaverick said:

What is wrong with some men? I don't get it.

I thought Michella's mom had the perfect reaction: If you don't believe there's a devil, you're in for a surprise.

I had questions, though- how could it be coincidence that Washburn saw and reported seeing the first murderer, and then decided to murder a kid himself? Did he actually think ' I'm going to take this opportunity to rape/kill a kid, because it'll be blamed on whoever killed the first one'? How could he be sure the first murderer wouldn't have an alibi? Or did seeing/hearing about the murder just suddenly awaken some latent evil in him that he couldn't resist?

I find it so creepy that these 2 only committed the single murder*, then lived the rest of their lives as law abiding citizens. I also thought it was interesting that the first detective (Ms. Ward) 'retired' at a very young age; I don't think we heard any reason, not that it's any of my business. 

*I hope I'm safe in assuming that the police would have checked other unsolved rape/murders that might have been committed by one or both of these guys, although that wasn't addressed on the episode

[TVbitch]

And can you imagine the family and other people in these men's lives? Did it say if they were married or had kids? All of the a sudden this person you have had a relationship with for decades is a child rapist and murderer. Jesus God. 

From watching all these show, it seems like a lot of homicide detectives retire quite young. The burn out must be great from what they witness and from the long hours. It seems hard on their families as well.    

[atlantaloves]

You are right, detectives do burn out and every single one that I have ever known as retired early or at young at 20 years. 

[sempervivum]

3 minutes ago, atlantaloves said:

You are right, detectives do burn out and every single one that I have ever known as retired early or at young at 20 years.

Well, that's because most police have great pension/retirement plans. You can often retire on half pay after 20 years, then go on to another career.

*I should add that of course for some of them, stress (both their own and their family's) plays a factor in burn out as well.

Edited April 6, 2019 by sempervivum
added thoughts

[Annber03]

5 hours ago, sempervivum said:

I find it so creepy that these 2 only committed the single murder*, then lived the rest of their lives as law abiding citizens. I also thought it was interesting that the first detective (Ms. Ward) 'retired' at a very young age; I don't think we heard any reason, not that it's any of my business. 

*I hope I'm safe in assuming that the police would have checked other unsolved rape/murders that might have been committed by one or both of these guys, although that wasn't addressed on the episode

Yeah, that surprised me, too. Generally with people who commit these kinds of crimes, it's not their first or last time. I'd do some double checking as well, definitely. 

[UsernameFatigue]

Good on the female detective for pursuing this case so doggedly, but one thing that surprised me was that she didn't send Washburn's DNA in with the first batch to be tested. As far as I know, his was the only one that matched similar DNA in the geneology data base. Yes, he was a witness in the first case and the match was for the second but as far as I know the rest had no connection other than they were prior offenders. I suppose he would only have been matched several months earlier, but I still think it was odd. 

[cooksdelight]

My local sheriff’s dept is under investigation, for a variety of reasons. I could never be a cop, ever. This case just reiterated it for me.

Google “Cherokee County NC Sheriff’s Department” .... I fear this may be on Dateline one day in the future.

[LittleIggy]

21 hours ago, ridethemaverick said:

I'm almost never affected anymore but this one got to me. I think it was the fact that two separate men on two separate occasions woke up and (as the one mom pointed out) went to the park on a beautiful day and decided to rape and kill a little girl. No biggie. Just saw them and took them for their own gratification. I'm angry and DISGUSTED because I know there are plenty more where they came from. What is wrong with some men? I don't get it.

The guy who murdered the young woman who got in his car thinking it was her Uber is another recent example. 😡

[Reality police]

1 hour ago, cooksdelight said:

My local sheriff’s dept is under investigation, for a variety of reasons. I could never be a cop, ever. This case just reiterated it for me.

Google “Cherokee County NC Sheriff’s Department” .... I fear this may be on Dateline one day in the future.

You may be right. Got a lot going on. I had read some of it in the news but Wow!

[12catcrazy]

Yeah, another case to file under "the banality of evil".  2 guys who see pretty 13 year olds  and commit rape and murder and then go on to live out their lives for next 30 years until DNA finally catches up to them.  

There was a case here in NY where the perp just got convicted during his second trial (the first one apparently had 1 or 2 holdout jurors and ended in a mistrial).  The killer was a young black guy who was pissed off at the world in general and at a neighbor's blaring loud music in particular and stormed off looking for someone to beat up or something.  He came upon a young woman jogger who would normally have her father with her, but he had hurt his back and stayed home.  She wound up being in the wrong place at the wrong time and the guy beat the hell out of her and killed her.   For no reason except his was mad at the world....  Now he can be mad for a good chunk of his life behind bars.  

Edited April 8, 2019 by 12catcrazy
typo

[JudyObscure]

On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 5:30 PM, 12catcrazy said:

Now he can be mad for a good chunk of his life behind bars.  

Among people who will be mad right back. 

"The banality of evil," is so well put for those opportunistic killers.  I will never, ever understand men who see women and want to have sex with them and also want to kill them.  I can imagine either or, but not both.

[bubbls]

6 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Among people who will be mad right back. 

"The banality of evil," is so well put for those opportunistic killers.  I will never, ever understand men who see women and want to have sex with them and also want to kill them.  I can imagine either or, but not both.

 I assume a lot of the times the killing is to keep them from telling. At least I’ve seen a lot of rapist/murderers say that or progress to that after they were caught for one rape. 

[LittleIggy]

People don’t do weird things with your lips in pics you take. You may be murdered, end up on Dateline, and those pictures will be your legacy. Sorry, couldn’t help myself...

What a sociopath. Murders the woman, then stands by the parents to “support” them. 

[Annber03]

Just now, LittleIggy said:

What a sociopath. Murders the woman, then stands by the parents to “support” them. 

The clips of him during the interrogation were quite something. He was clearly eager to talk about this to somebody. I loved how the interrogator barely had to talk, he just sat back in the chair and you could tell he was thinking, "No, please, by all means, go on...". 

I was especially amused by the guy's explanation for why his DNA would be there. Couldn't just leave it at, "Oh, yeah, I've been over to her house often" as an explanation, he had to keep going and say, "I always wind up cutting myself somehow" and things to that effect. That totally won't raise any suspicions at all, nope. 

I also liked when the guy who'd been looking at the text messages and the videos and such said, "I've seen a lot of weird stuff", because I'd been thinking about all the kinds of interesting, strange things these people would no doubt come across in that kind of work :p. 

[CraftyHazel]

Maybe I shouldn’t say it, but...

Thank you, Dateline, for covering a story where the victim was not a beauty queen superstar.  Average looking people living average, modest lives are murdered, too.  To watch true crime on TV is to believe you’re safe from violent crime if you’re not a candidate for People’s 100 Most Beautiful list.

Poor Jessyka.  And her poor family, surely second guessing their longtime affection for and support of her killer.

[JudyObscure]

6 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I loved how the interrogator barely had to talk, he just sat back in the chair and you could tell he was thinking, "No, please, by all means, go on...". 

LOL and his, "If I was the killer would I be praying for her on face book or over at the family's house every day or crying at the funeral ...?" and the detective thinking, sure you would, you transparent little twerp.  Even before the murder you could tell he was the sort of pest I can't stand, "Want to go to the movies, "No, I have to clean house"  "Want me to come and  help?"  "No, I'm almost done." 

I'd like to get hold of the woman who told the family, "Don't believe the rape accuser, she's a trouble maker."  The rape accuser seemed like a very reliable person to me, while the murderer was a walking red flag of flakiness.

What a nice woman the other baby mama was, it's wonderful the little boy is being raised by her.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Poor Jessyka.  And her poor family, surely second guessing their longtime affection for and support of her killer.

I can't imagine how awful Jessyka's brother feels since the guy was his friend. He's the reason that guy was an extended part of their family. But part of me can't help but wonder if there weren't signs that he simply missed or ignored. 

[TVbitch]

I try not to judge but "Jessyka"? People, it does not make your baby unique or special to fuck with the spelling of their name to the point where they will have to spell it for everyone for the rest of their lives. The worst I've seen is "Aireeka."

Sorry, pet peeve. Poor Jessyka, how hard do you have to be head-butted for that much blood to come out. Jesus God, now you have to do background checks on your friends. 

I know it was best for her son, and all the kids, and the family and, well, everyone... but... at the end when her friend got the happily-ever-after with Jessyka's son and ex, I felt a little uncomfortable.  Granted it was her ex first. I guess just file it under "it's complicated."

[biakbiak]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

He's the reason that guy was an extended part of their family. 

He was friends with the brother because her dad and his had been best friends for decades. 

[Koalagirl]

I think I’ve watched too many true crime shows because as soon as they introduced Matt I knew immediately he was Jessyka’s killer. 

[LittleIggy]

4 hours ago, Koalagirl said:

I think I’ve watched too many true crime shows because as soon as they introduced Matt I knew immediately he was Jessyka’s killer. 

Well, yeah, he was like “Chekhov’s perp.” 😏

[biakbiak]

I mean it did say in the description an “unlikely” suspect which rules out the ex-baby daddy (who has two kids less than nine months apart with two different women) or the sketchy drug dealer/friend of friend. Though on paper the dude didn’t seem unlikely at all to the police given his prior conviction for attempted sexual assault. 

Edited April 14, 2019 by biakbiak

[Irlandesa]

8 hours ago, TVbitch said:

I know it was best for her son, and all the kids, and the family and, well, everyone... but... at the end when her friend got the happily-ever-after with Jessyka's son and ex, I felt a little uncomfortable.  Granted it was her ex first. I guess just file it under "it's complicated."

Call me McJudgy Judgerson but that whole situation was messy.  He gets one girl pregnant and then gets her friend pregnant.  They kept having an on and off relationship until he accidentally confesses he cheated on her. And now he's back with the first friend?

11 hours ago, iMonrey said:

But part of me can't help but wonder if there weren't signs that he simply missed or ignored. 

Well we know there were signs that he simply ignored.  The dude was convicted of sexual assault.

I get that they heard from someone who knew the victim that the victim wasn't up to any good (victim blaming is a concept) but they did get a conviction.  That's pretty hard to ignore.  I found it interesting that the woman's tale is similar to what happened with Jessyka.  He got close to the family and then assaulted the mom.  He also got close to Jessyka's family and then assaulted her.

[biakbiak]

6 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

found it interesting that the woman's tale is similar to what happened with Jessyka.  He got close to the family and then assaulted the mom.  He also got close to Jessyka's family and then assaulted her.

I was interested to know about his family because the first victim talked they had sort of adopted him as a surrogate son who the husband taught to drive a truck but the father was still in the picture as evidenced by the fact that their call was one that got him to admit he was at her house that night and his father was bff with Jessyka’s dad for “decades” so it’s not like he targeted the family to get close to before he was born or a toddler. 

[EtheltoTillie]

17 hours ago, TVbitch said:

I try not to judge but "Jessyka"? People, it does not make your baby unique or special to fuck with the spelling of their name to the point where they will have to spell it for everyone for the rest of their lives. The worst I've seen is "Aireeka."

Sorry, pet peeve. Poor Jessyka, how hard do you have to be head-butted for that much blood to come out. Jesus God, now you have to do background checks on your friends. 

I know it was best for her son, and all the kids, and the family and, well, everyone... but... at the end when her friend got the happily-ever-after with Jessyka's son and ex, I felt a little uncomfortable.  Granted it was her ex first. I guess just file it under "it's complicated."

Jeez so with you there. I have a hard to spell uncommon last name.

As for the complicated family, I had to say in the end it seemed best for those kids. 

Edited April 14, 2019 by GussieK

[JudyObscure]

18 hours ago, TVbitch said:

I know it was best for her son, and all the kids, and the family and, well, everyone... but... at the end when her friend got the happily-ever-after with Jessyka's son and ex, I felt a little uncomfortable.  Granted it was her ex first. I guess just file it under "it's complicated."

For me the bolded is the important part.  The first one was pregnant and found out her man was having an affair with her friend and got her friend pregnant as well.  Yet she says she couldn't be mad at JessyKa because "She was such a nice person."  That points to the first one being a very forgiving person, while JessyKa, apart from being our victim, maybe not such a super friend.

As for, "happily ever after," I'm still not crazy about the baby daddy, so I tend to think she may be over looking a lot of his faults in order to do what's best for the children.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I try not to judge but "Jessyka"? People, it does not make your baby unique or special to fuck with the spelling of their name to the point where they will have to spell it for everyone for the rest of their lives.

Yeah, take it from someone with an unusual last name, having your name mispronounced all the time can give you a real complex. 

[Annber03]

3 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Yeah, take it from someone with an unusual last name, having your name mispronounced all the time can give you a real complex. 

My mom would definitely agree with that-she had a tough last name growing up, too. My dad used to joke that she married him because his last name was much simpler and easier to say/spell :p. 

[Coffeewinewater]

I haven't read everyone's posts yet. I just wanted say , I  just watched this episode this morning then got on Facebook and my daughter in law posted how lonely she will be all week because her husband is working in Dallas all week. My jaw dropped.  I told my husband and he wondered if I should  tell her to take it down. I told him I wouldn't do that, but I will tell my son that maybe he should talk to her about not posting that when he's out of state working.  You never know who's reading.  

Any way. I knew it was Matt the family friend right away.  Poor Jessica and her little boy.

[Irlandesa]

6 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

The first one was pregnant and found out her man was having an affair with her friend and got her friend pregnant as well.

The timing on that was a bit vague.  They broke up before the first person found out she was pregnant.  Then she heard he was dating her high school friend.  They didn't specify whether or not there was overlap, though. I did like the friend, though, and I hope he's a better husband to her.  At the very least, I hope she can adopt Jessyka's kid so she's ensured custody rights even if things do go bad.

Edited April 14, 2019 by Irlandesa

[12catcrazy]

I have to agree with so much that has been said here.  I think that one of the things that gets me (and you see this alot on these shows with convicted perps whose family just refuses to believe the person did the crime) - is that after the murderer raped the older married friend and was CONVICTED of the crime, Jessyca's family thought he was innocent and the victim was a "troublemaker".  Well, even in this age of Me Too (and this murder happened a few years ago), to get a conviction in most rape cases there has to be quite a bit of evidence showing that the  victim was actually forcibly assaulted/raped.   For years here in New York, you had to basically have had the hell beaten out of you before a rapist would be brought to trial.   What, did the perp tell his friends that the victim "liked it rough" or some such shit and they believed it?   Sad that Jessyca wound up his next victim and murdered because she fought back too hard. 

And on the Judgy McJudgy end of things, what the hell has happened in America where everybody has baby daddies/mamas and few have husbands or wives?   Is becoming a single parent now a source of pride with all these dumb young women or what?  Not talking about "morality" here but it's like the whole social fabric of society is changing and I can't really believe it's a good thing.  I've seen the difference in my own family between the kids who have the married parents and the ones with the unmarried/never married ones.  I just don't get it...

[OpalNightstream]

regarding the murder of the girls on the bikes, this is another example of the show dedicating too little time to a complex case (only an hour and I would’ve liked to know about the killers’ families and what the killers were doing all those decades in society) and yet the show will drag out other cases into 2 very slow moving hours that could be easily done in 1. 

[OpalNightstream]

Kind of awkward in the episode “11 minutes” when Josh asked the BFF if the death of her friend was “the worst day of your life?”   That was risky.  We don’t know her past, maybe she actually had a worse thing happen in her life. She responded with a “yes” but still I think unless it’s the death of a child you’ve got to be careful with assuming anything is “the worst” day of anyone’s life.  

[Ohmo]

11 Minutes: Madison (the kid in Alabama)  I think he did it..  While murder/suicides do happen in this country, I thought it was very "convenient" that a murder-suicide supposedly happened THEN...where the person who would benefit most was Madison.  He knew that his parents were about to deal with him in the judicial system, and boy, if his father weren't there to be a handy patsy.

Madison seems very narcissistic to me.  That comment in jail about what the girls he slept with now supposed sleeping with an accused murderer.  Ewww.   The comment about wanting to be a lawyer, but it's not about the money, as well as the Bible verses?  It's like he's trying too hard.

I understand why the DA dropped charges.  They don't have enough yet, but I do think he did it (and I agree with how the sheriff thinks he did it.  That kid is "off," and I hope the cops are able to find the evidence that's needed to successfully convict him.

[partofme]

I was very happy that the charges were dropped.   I couldn’t believe that the police thought he was guilty when he was handcuffed at the time of the murder-suicide.  The dad clearly had a temper and made threats against the ex in his diary.  

[ByaNose]

I think Madison did it. He comes off so narcissistic & slick. Also, he doesn’t show any sorrow or remorse for being a jackass to his parents before all of this happened. Even in his interviews he doesn’t seem upset that both his parents were shot & killed. Yup! He got away with murder.

[cooksdelight]

Add me to the Madison Did It club. He was almost giddy about what he did.

[Blissfool]

If it was anyone else besides the former mayor/fire chief, I bet the deputy would have seen to it that the boy was released from the handcuffs before he left the house. That would be considered abuse coming from any other parent.

[biakbiak]

If I were on the jury I wouldn’t be able to get past the handcuffs.

[UsernameFatigue]

While I did not like Madison for all the reasons posters have stated, I would not have been able to convict him if I was on a jury.  Besides the handcuffs, no blood on him, the father's abusiveness and threats, and that it was shown that the father could have shot himself in the back of the head, I am not surprised that the case was dropped. 

The one thing I was shocked at was that his uncle was allowed in the room when he was being questioned. It wasn't like he was there on Madison's behalf (and Madison said himself that he barely knew him). It appeared he was there in the role of a police officer, and IMO was totally inappropriate and he should not have been allowed in the room.  

Edited April 21, 2019 by UsernameFatigue

[Annber03]

4 hours ago, Ohmo said:

Madison seems very narcissistic to me.  That comment in jail about what the girls he slept with now supposed sleeping with an accused murderer.  Ewww. 

Yeeeeeeeah, that had me cringing hard, too. I get the whole "teenagers will say dumb stuff" argument, 'cause that is true, but even so, I don't think most teenagers are going to say things like that after their parents have been murdered, unless, of course, they had a truly shitty relationship with them/had a role in their deaths. I mean, when his dad thinks putting him in handcuffs for throwing a party without his permission is an acceptable response, that clearly shows there's a lot deeper issues going on between father and son, and that they've been going on for some time, This could've just been that breaking point. 

That said, I do also question the whole thing with the handcuffs, and I can also definitely see where the dad's reaction to his wife moving on could lead him to do something like kill her and then himself. But I'm also torn on the way the dad might've killed himself. As shown, no, it's not impossible for him to shoot himself that way...but the fact remains that most people aren't going to shoot themselves that way, because it's still a really weird and awkward way to do so. And didn't they say that he didn't use his dominant hand to do it? Also weird. 

They never mentioned the neighbor whose home Madison ran to, did they? I would've liked to hear about what they might've heard or witnessed. 

[biakbiak]

I also didn’t give any credence to the deputy who stated the father appeared completely fine when he dropped him off one because abusers tend to be able to present a facade to the world and two if he did say he was off in some way he would be looked at for leaving a kid handcuffed with him:

[Blissfool]

So now we all know that, as a teen, the  investigator kissed a dead dog on a dare. 🤦‍♀️

Boys will be boys?

[Ohmo]

1 hour ago, Annber03 said:

But I'm also torn on the way the dad might've killed himself. As shown, no, it's not impossible for him to shoot himself that way...but the fact remains that most people aren't going to shoot themselves that way, because it's still a really weird and awkward way to do so.

Yes, if the father was going to kill himself, why do it in such an odd way?  And if it's possible to say ir was just the way it happened, I can just as easily believe that Madison could decide to kill his parents.

As for "getting past the handcuffs," I can do that...because I think that could have been what set Madison off.   That his dad put him in handcuffs, and his parents were about to start dealing with the juvenile justice system.  This wasn't just a house party.  They had been having issues with Madison.

Plus, a handcuff key was present.  I can see Madison being so pissed off that he hatches this plan in the moment, and knowing that he's able to pin it on his dad.

Also, I think that if Madison's father was in such a state as to kill himself and his wife, he'd also kill Madison.

[Annber03]

1 minute ago, Ohmo said:

As for "getting past the handcuffs," I can do that...because I think that could have been what set Madison off.   That his dad put him in handcuffs, and his parents were about to start dealing with the juvenile justice system.  This wasn't just a house party.  They had been having issues with Madison.

Yeah, I certainly don't doubt he could find a way to slip out of those handcuffs. I'm not the most flexible person, but I could probably do it, too, with effort. If he did do that, it does seem odd that he'd put them back on afterward, though, as he could make up some other explanation for why he's not in them anymore...but then again, if he needs to keep up a ruse, that's a logical reason to do so.

Quote

Also, I think that if Madison's father was in such a state as to kill himself and his wife, he'd also kill Madison.

Also a good point. Either he wouldn't want his son to be orphaned, or he could be thinking, "If I can't have my wife and son, nobody can!", or, more likely, he'd just be taking out his general anger on the whole family at once. 

[biakbiak]

2 hours ago, Ohmo said:

Also, I think that if Madison's father was in such a state as to kill himself and his wife, he'd also kill Madison.

Well according to Madison’s story he left the house before any gunshots were fired he obviously couldn’t do anything if his hands were handcuffed so ran to get help so his dad might not have been planning on killing his wife.

I didn’t find the gunshot test credible either because if he was freaking out because he thought his dad was hurting his mom he might not have registered it. Another reason to hear from the neighbor was to see if he heard the gunshots since the argument is that Madison had to have heard them than the neighbor should have heard them as well. I might be misremembering but did we actual hear the 911 call or just Josh giving a synopsis? 

The sheriff thinking it was weird that he flipped off the investigator after because their was no reason for it was ridiculous the investigator was clearly accusing him of murdering his parents flipping him off behind his back is a fairly subdued reaction! 

Also, why didn’t they do gunshot residue testing on Michael and Madison? 

Of course it’s possible to slip out of handcuffs but to know exactly where the key is, slip out of them unlock them, locate the gun which I am assuming wasn’t just lying on the coffee table, kill both his parents without either of them advancing on him, relocking the handcuffs behind his back and running 200 yards to the neighbors house seems like a very tight timeline for a 17 year old with no history of giving violence.

[Ohmo]

20 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

I might be misremembering but did we actual hear the 911 call or just Josh giving a synopsis? 

No, we didn't hear the 911 call in this episode.  You might be thinking of a snippet of phone call that we heard from Madison when he was in jail (where he mentioned all the girls he slept with had now slept with an accused murderer.)

20 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

Of course it’s possible to slip out of handcuffs but to know exactly where the key is, slip out of them unlock them, locate the gun which I am assuming wasn’t just lying on the coffee table, kill both his parents without either of them advancing on him, relocking the handcuffs behind his back and running 200 yards to the neighbors house seems like a very tight timeline for a 17 year old with no history of giving violence.

I thought the show said that the handcuff key was somewhere in plain sight when investigators were at the house.  So either Madison knew where it was and was able to get it or his dad had the key in plain sight.  If it was in plain sight, Madison would have had the opportunity to use it.

As for his parents advancing on him, his father being shot in the back of the head seems more plausible to be the result of Madison wanting to make sure his dad couldn't advance on him.  Thus, shooting him in the back of the head so he doesn't see it coming.  That makes more sense to me than to decide to commit suicide by shooting yourself in a very odd way.

If Madison shot his father in the back of the head, his mother would likely be so stunned that she wouldn't advance on him, but instead try and defend herself from him by putting up her hand.

Edited April 21, 2019 by Ohmo

[biakbiak]

15 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

So either Madison knew where it was and was able to get it or his dad had the key in plain sight.  If it was in plain sight, Madison would have had the opportunity to use it.

Yes when searching the house after the fact they located the keys in a trashed house which is different than being able to find them on a tight timeline. Again I am not saying it isn’t possible but it would be more than enough for me to have reasonable doubt. 

I would also like to know where his father regularly had his gun. This is a crime of minutes when you factor in the fact that he probably didn’t immediately get into action the second the deputy went to his car add in that his parents were in the bedroom so that’s a few more minutes to execute a near perfect murder.

I find it strange that we didn’t hear from the neighbor or hear the 911 call which is public record because those who two things would be hugely influential in proving guilt or innocence. 

I also found the fact that Dateline didn’t mention that they found Madison still in handcuffs until very late into the episode interesting because that clearly was a choice to make the viewer more open to the idea that it was a homicide.

At the end of the day when the medical examiner can’t state for certain that it’s a homicide and than it’s good that they dropped the case. 

15 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

u might be thinking of a snippet of phone call that we heard from Madison when he was in jail (where he mentioned all the girls he slept with had now slept with an accused murderer.)

No I wasn’t thinking of the other call, I just wanted to make sure I didn’t miss out on what I think is a key part of the story  being included.

Edited April 21, 2019 by biakbiak

[biakbiak]

32 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

Thus, shooting him in the back of the head so he doesn't see it coming

It was a close contact wound which means he would also have to have not heard him. Where was he in location to the door etc would also be useful information.

Eta: There was blood splatter just none on Madison. In the DA’s statement they concluded and specifically stated that the evidence fits Madison’s story of the crime better than homicide which is a lot stronger than Dateline made it seem that they had just concluded there wasn’t enough evidence. 

Edited April 21, 2019 by biakbiak