All Episodes Discussion

[UsernameFatigue]

^^^^ ....or one of the four telling another friend or family member that they helped carry out a murder. Happens all the time where actual criminals are caught because they have to brag and the person they brag to turns them in. But nope, according to the prosecutor they were able to carry the dastardly deed out and not a peep out of any of them to any of their myriad of family and friends.  Meanwhile the prosecutor apparently couldn't have an affair without people knowing. So Russ's friends are way smarter than the lady lawyer - as witnessed by her own actions and assertions.

[FanOfTheFans]

This whole case was like bizarro world. I don't understand how the investigators can even sleep at night. So much shady doings. I kept thinking, this would never of happened if Lt. Kenda investigated this case. (Shoutout to HomicideHunter) That is the type of cop you need on the job. Let the evidence do the talking. It is really disheartening to see corruption at this level. What is the matter with people?

The other thing I can't get off my mind is the number of times Betsy was stabbed. Talk about overkill. That poor woman. What a horrible death she suffered.

And no one is held accountable. I'm glad at least the judge mentioned on record how inept the investigation was. I know there are a lot if sociopaths out there that can pull the wool over people's eyes but this lady seemed shady from the get go. I don't understand why they let her skate. It was just so obvious.

[UsernameFatigue]

I read in a couple of places online statements that Pam Hupp bilked a cancer patient out of $10,000. This is before Betsy was murdered. Unfortunately there were no details - not sure if it was a fundraiser and Pam was in charge of turning the money over, or how she was involved. But apparently she kept the money. I have no idea why this woman keeps getting away with crimes - and away with murder literally - and those who should be bringing her to account turn a blind eye?

[Hank3]

Man...couldn't help myself.  I teared up watching this episode.  To have endured as much as he did...astounding!

 

The money shot at the end of him looking back up to the prison from that bench, wow.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Hank3

[glowlights]

The other thing I can't get off my mind is the number of times Betsy was stabbed. Talk about overkill. That poor woman. What a horrible death she suffered.

 

Wasn't it posited that most of those wounds came post-mortem, which accounts for the lack of blood? That's been my comforting thought, that Betsy died quickly from the neck wound and she was gone when the rest happened. Gosh i hope that's true.

 

I read in a couple of places online statements that Pam Hupp bilked a cancer patient out of $10,000. This is before Betsy was murdered. Unfortunately there were no details - not sure if it was a fundraiser and Pam was in charge of turning the money over, or how she was involved. But apparently she kept the money. I have no idea why this woman keeps getting away with crimes - and away with murder literally - and those who should be bringing her to account turn a blind eye?

 

Yeah, I heard that Pam made flyers and went door to door to collect money for a cancer patient, without the family's knowledge, and then the patient/family didn't see any of the money and wasn't even aware that Pam had done that. But it could be hard to prove because one doesn't often get a receipt for a cash donation at the door, and so Pam could just deny it all...

[walnutqueen]

There's a word for Pam Hupp that is only acceptable in the Deadwood forum.  Actually, several choice words, uttered with not an ounce of the easy affection found in that eloquent show.  I need a new lexicon to express my disgust for this grotesque.

[FanOfTheFans]

Wasn't it posited that most of those wounds came post-mortem, which accounts for the lack of blood? That's been my comforting thought, that Betsy died quickly from the neck wound and she was gone when the rest happened. Gosh i hope that's true.

 

 

Yeah, I heard that Pam made flyers and went door to door to collect money for a cancer patient, without the family's knowledge, and then the patient/family didn't see any of the money and wasn't even aware that Pam had done that. But it could be hard to prove because one doesn't often get a receipt for a cash donation at the door, and so Pam could just deny it all...

I am glad most wounds were post mortem. I missed that. Weird that she would keep stabbing her though. That lady is going to hurt somebody again. Ticking time bomb.

[CaughtOnTape]

This episode brought up another subject we've discussed here: The 911 call. Russ was "too emotional" so he is the killer. Other callers are "too calm" so they are the killer. Unless there is some standard protocol for how one should call in when they've stumbled upon a bloody murder scene, I wish 911 calls would be just left out, unless they reveal something relevant to the trial, like: "I just killed my wife. I mean, uh, I just found my wife and I think she's dead."

 

I always hate these kinds of rushes to judgment as well.  I was the one who called 911 when my mother died.  I've always wondered what I sounded like on the phone during that call.  Because once she was pronounced dead and I started making calls to family members I was told by some that I was hysterical while others thought I was joking because I was so calm.  My best friend wanted to speak to the EMT's there to make sure they checked me out while my Aunt asked me several times over if I was being serious.

 

I went from crying hysterically to shifting straight into adult "this needs to be taken care of" mode to shifting into really calm and dazed in a matter of about 10 minutes.  

 

So when I hear the "he was too calm" or "he was too emotional" argument from a cop, I automatically side-eye.  Tell me, what is the proper reaction to have when you walk into a house to find someone you love dead when you weren't expecting it?  Granted my mother wasn't murdered, but it was still the last thing I expected to walk in to find when I got to my parents house that day.

I guess I should be thankful I didn't ping the radar of some overzealous cop that showed up to my house that night.  

[CaughtOnTape]

I hate it when prosecutors stand up and argue to keep someone in jail so they can "investigate".  

[Fable]

There's a word for Pam Hupp that is only acceptable in the Deadwood forum.  Actually, several choice words, uttered with not an ounce of the easy affection found in that eloquent show.  I need a new lexicon to express my disgust for this grotesque.

 

is there really a word only acceptable in one forum?  You simply must share this word with me!   

[Stampiron]

Re the fundraising flyer scam Hupp pulled right before Betsy was killed, the local Fox Station did some investigating that I guess the local police were too busy to do:

 

James Murphy said, "Wow, that`s our Christmas card. That`s really, that`s kind of scary."

 

Murphy is the man in that flyer, seeing for the first time his Christmas card, photocopied without his permission.

 

Murphy said, "I have no idea where she came up with some of that stuff."

 

We found Murphy while following a lead apparently overlooked by investigators.  Court records show that Hupp claimed she didn't need money and even once gave $50,000 of Betsy`s money to a family battling cancer.  This interview may be the first time anyone's followed up.

 

I asked Murphy, "It never got back to you? Nobody ever said hey... (Murphy) I`m really surprised that we haven`t been, I mean doing something like this is taking a big chance that somebody would contact us."

 

He says the story is not true... and the line 'Laura`s last Christmas... Murphy said, "She still had time. She still had time. She was sick, but I have no idea why she would say this was Laura`s last Christmas. (Hayes) So if you had seen that at the time that would really hurt. (Murphy) It would. It really would."

 

She had 2 Christmases. His wife died a year and a half later, in July.  Murphy said Hupp regularly took his wife out while she underwent chemo, but never said anything about a fundraiser.  He added that he never saw a dime.

 

Also, there's this:

 

The detective asked again about the day of the murder, December 27th, 2011.   Betsy and her friend Bobbi Wann were together during Betsy's chemo that afternoon.   Court records indicate Betsy texted Hupp to tell her she didn't need a ride, because she was with an old friend. Betsy texted "have not spent any one-on-one with her." But Hupp showed up at the treatment.  Betsy's friend, Bobbi, told me she was surprised and Hupp took Betsy home later that night.

 

Betsy then texted Russ, "Pam Hupp wants to bring me home to bed."

 

More at the link:

 

http://fox2now.com/2014/03/10/the-faria-murder-fox-files-special-report-part-2/

 

[walnutqueen]

^^^ This makes me want to vomit.

 

 

Fable, on 27 Jan 2016 - 5:18 PM, said:

is there really a word only acceptable in one forum?  You simply must share this word with me!   

 

Well, the Brits and I do not find it as offensive as the 'mericans do, but I use it almost exclusively as a term of endearment, as in (quoting Al from Deadwood) : "Loopy fucking cunt".  Needless to say, Pam Hupp elicits the more pejorative usage of the last two words, and I will never forgive her for making me go there.

 

She is utterly despicable.

[glowlights]

^^^ This makes me want to vomit.

 

 

 

Well, the Brits and I do not find it as offensive as the 'mericans do, but I use it almost exclusively as a term of endearment, as in (quoting Al from Deadwood) : "Loopy fucking cunt".  Needless to say, Pam Hupp elicits the more pejorative usage of the last two words, and I will never forgive her for making me go there.

 

Also: twat. :)

 

Re the fundraising flyer scam Hupp pulled right before Betsy was killed, the local Fox Station did some investigating that I guess the local police were too busy to do:

 

Thank you for posting that! What a piece of work she is. Pam Hupp reminds me very much of Tania Head (the notorious 9/11 scammer). Obviously their motives are very different and Tania is not known to have killed anyone, but something about Pam reminds me of Tania....

[saber5055]

My condolences to you, CaughtOnTape, for having had to go through that sad situation. A nightmare, for sure.

 

While we all agree on what Pam Hupp is, my problem is with the police department and the judge, all of whom let Pam skate while putting Russ behind bars. What is being done about THEM?

[cooksdelight]

The controversial conviction of Steven Avery in the murder case of Teresa Halbach.

This is the story that may end up rivaling O.J.'s murder trial.

[candall]

I guess most people already know about this story, but this Dateline was the first I'd heard any of it.

 

Has that cat torture incident ever been confirmed?  I'd be able to form a solid opinion, based on that.

 

 

[walnutqueen]

candall, on 30 Jan 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

I guess most people already know about this story, but this Dateline was the first I'd heard any of it.

 

Has that cat torture incident ever been confirmed?  I'd be able to form a solid opinion, based on that.

 

I think I watched something on this story ages ago, but don't have Netflix, so was unaware of the new stuff.  I'll admit I quit caring about it as soon as I heard about the cat.  If that story is true, he can rot in jail for the wrong reason.

[hoosiermom]

I am just so over all this and the documentary. Sounds like some conspiracists found an easy way to get their 15 minutes of fame. IMOO

[partofme]

I guess most people already know about this story, but this Dateline was the first I'd heard any of it.

Has that cat torture incident ever been confirmed? I'd be able to form a solid opinion, based on that.

Yes he apparently did time in jail for the cat, but the netflix documentary downplays it and tries to make it sound like an accident.

I did like that Dateline showed that there should be a hole in the blood vile. I think Avery is guilty because nothing else makes any sense, and whether he's involved or not his nephew knows something because he was talking to his cousin about it months before his arrest.

[ari333]

is there really a word only acceptable in one forum?  You simply must share this word with me!   

 

Could it be "Aunt" but spelled with a "C" ? :-)

[ari333]

ok. From reading here I might have to watch this one if it is on On Demand. And if he hurt an animal.... no words. Hurting people is bad too. (Did I need to add that? )

[candall]

I think I watched something on this story ages ago, but don't have Netflix, so was unaware of the new stuff.  I'll admit I quit caring about it as soon as I heard about the cat.  If that story is true, he can rot in jail for the wrong reason.

 

 

If the police wanted to nail him enough to manipulate evidence, the cat story would be a clever way to influence public opinion. (Not sure the police we saw interviewed were that shrewd.)

 

I tend to believe it because of the way the woman emphasized that her cousin would never do that kind of stuff, he wouldn't rape someone.  Sounded like she was drawing a distinction between degrees of bad behavior.

**************************

 

 

Added later:

 

Yes he apparently did time in jail for the cat, but the netflix documentary downplays it and tries to make it sound like an accident.

Ah!  So the doc is pro-Avery.

 

I don't see how you could softsoap THAT into an accident.  It's not like he knocked over his coffee cup and scalded the family pet.

 

Throw away the key.

Edited January 30, 2016 by candall

[ElleBee]

He lost me with the cat too! It's extremely telling when people mistreat animals. 

 

This was my only exposure to the case, so there may be aspects I haven't heard about, but IMO the conspiracy theory was totally out there. I believe it was proven that he was the last person to talk to her, and it was also proven that she was driving out to his property (or nearby). So what--the police department is chomping at the bit, just waiting for some young woman, whose last known contact happens to be with Avery, to coincidentally be murdered elsewhere by someone else, so they can quickly find her, move her body and car, and plant evidence against him? What kind of planets have to align to make that scheme come together? Like the one guy said, it's certainly *possible* that an elephant will walk through the door but just because it's possible, doesn't make it likely. They must really be doing some kind of manic spin on MaM if they have so many people convinced that he's been framed. I totally don't get how there's any doubt. (Though I'm not quite as fully convinced on the cousin/nephew--if he's below-average intelligence and the cops were eager for a confession, he could have gotten swept into the whole thing.)

 

RIP Teresa Halbach--I'm so sorry you crossed paths with a sadistic monster. 

[FanOfTheFans]

The cat was also the family cat. Killing any animal is bad but I would assume there would be an emotional attachment by his own family for this animal. It gives insight to the type of person he is at his core. Sickening IMO.

Edited January 31, 2016 by FanOfTheFans

[cooksdelight]

When the documentary first aired, I thought "OMG....he's manipulated these women into believing him."

And that's still my thought. There's an Investigation Discovery program at 9 about this case tonight.

If he hadn't made that third call, leaving a voice mail for her, he might have gotten away with it. But that, with the two previous calls, told me and others that he lured her there. And yes, anyone who'd torture a family pet can be put under the jail for life.

[Ohmo]

Kathleen Zellner must be slipping in choosing her potential clients, and I think those Netflix producers were duped as well.  I really hope that Kathleen doesn't strain herself to get Steven out because I think he's exactly where he needs to be.  Not only do I believe that Steven killed Teresa, I also believe that his plan was to get people to react as his former defense attorney did.  The guy asked who would be dumb enough to move bones right next to his house?  My answer?  The guy who knows he has a wrongful conviction in his pocket.  Steven did not rape that woman 30 years ago, but that does not mean he was a choir boy or an innocent person.  He happened to be innocent of that crime, but he was not innocent of others.  It's my personal opinion that he murdered Teresa and planned to use "the cops framed me" as cover.  He knew people would gravitate toward that because he was wrongly convicted once before.

 

I can believe that there are dirty cops in this world who plant evidence.  However, Steven's allegation lost credibility with me as soon as his former defense attorney had a laundry list of evidence that the cops supposedly planted.  One piece of evidence would be plausible.  I'd also listen to two pieces. but Steven alleged that the cops planted EVERYTHING.  Sorry, not buying that.  I doubt that a corrupt cop would be that stupid, and I'm also not buying that the police supposedly framed him to keep from paying the money.  The out-of-court settlement was $400,000, and I think the city lawyers would have negotiated down.  I don't think Steven was important enough for the city to be afraid of him, nor do I think the city would have ended up paying $32 million anyway.  I don't think the city would have invested the time or manpower it would have taken to "frame" Steven.  If the city honestly thought that was necessary, it needed better lawyers.  LOL!  I just don't believe any police department would be that afraid of one person.

 

I also believe the blood testing expert that Andrea Canning interviewed.  I think the hole in the tube means nothing.

 

And another thing....Dateline and 48 Hours have been reporting stories like this for YEARS, but Netflix suddenly starts charging people to view the content, and suddenly it's a national phenomenon?  Whatever.

 

Enjoy your prison cell, Steven.  Don't work too hard, Kathleen.

[Mannahatta]

I'm midway through watching the 10 part series on Netflix. There were a lot of irregularities in the case that make you shake your head. I can understand grounds for a new trial. But I could also see him being found guilty again. That said the series is definitely biased. It's not just what they've left out - it's also the relentless portrayal of the Avery family as misunderstood salt-of-the-earth type folk, and then there's the spooky music that plays whenever a conspiracy by the county police is suggested. Meanwhile the family has a history of some pretty serious crimes committed by a number of their members including Steven.

 

There was one snippet in the series where Steven Avery casually mentions - with not one iota of remorse - how he threw the cat "over" the fire as if it were just a silly teen-age prank. It wasn't even clear what happened to the poor animal. Plus - not that this behavior at any age would be an excuse - but he was an adult with a few children and a pregnant wife at the time. Then to hear on Dateline that he poured gasoline on the cat and set it on fire! It makes me more suspect about both him and the Netflix series. His past wrongful imprisonment, his lawsuit against the county, and the murder case are all very disturbing. But why the need to minimize what a psycho he is?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fable]

I don't have Netflix and didn't see this, but I've paid attention to it in the media.  I have no opinion about Steven Avery one way or the other, but I do think law enforcement screwed his nephew over, and he is the one I really feel for.  He was obviously coached into his confession and then arrested for it.  My head hurts just thinking about it.  

Edited January 31, 2016 by Fable

[Ohmo]

If this didn't involve the loss of a human life, it would be laughable how absurd this is.  There's no doubt in my mind that Pam Hupp killed Betsy, and law enforcement not only believed her, they prepped her so she would get away with it!  That female prosecutor is delusional if she thinks she is a good lawyer.  Sitting across from Pam, she might as well have been saying, "Pam, I'm going to let you get away with murder.  Does that work for you?  Good, now let's do lunch."

 

I'm sad because even though Russell should be free, the fact that Pam is allowed to skate is vile.

[AlwaysWatching]

For me, the great injustice in this case isn't that Steven Avery might be innocent, it's in how the Manitowoc Sheriff's department and all the people that were involved with SA's first arrest for rape got away with everything. When the depositions for the lawsuit started it was mind blowing.  I don't remember who all the people were right now, but every last one of them were almost shaking in their chairs because they knew they were caught.  If Steven Avery did kill Teresa Halbach...damn...not only was it horrific but it was a very stupid move. He was about to get a huge amount of money.  They had Manitowoc Sheriff's department cold. Other people were also involved and there was this thing about insurance not covering everyone who had lied or misrepresented facts in the rape case.  I don't think Avery would have gotten 36 million, but he would have just about busted that town and financially destroyed several people. 

 

I'm not saying that I believe all the evidence or any of the evidence was planted.  I really don't know. All I do know, is that this town had great incentive to - some way, some how - get rid of this lawsuit.   Personally, I strongly, strongly dislike Steven Avery.  I think he is probably capable of extreme violence.

 

Again, as I was watching the Netflix documentary, the part that frightened me the most was the idea that a Sheriff's office could possibly do something like they did in SA's first case.  Then I realized that this stuff goes on all the time. Two young documentary makers simply decided ten years ago to put a spotlight on an intriguing case of a man exonerated for one crime and very soon after arrested for one much worse.  This is a very interesting story with a lot of moving parts.  Small town attitudes, class differences, IQ challenges, so many more things I'm too tired to go into..and make any sense..came together in this "close as we are going to get to the truth" story. It all came together to make a riveting 10 hours of dark entertainment.  eh dialysis sucks

 

On edit.. I ran out of energy and didn't get to Dassey.  That young man at the very least deserves a new trial. Even if he is truly guilty, he still deserves a new trial.

Edited January 31, 2016 by AlwaysWatching

[Ohmo]

That young man at the very least deserves a new trial. Even if he is truly guilty, he still deserves a new trial.

 

That I can agree with.  I can also get behind the fact that this young man had some developmental challenges that the police exploited during his interview.  He may or may not be involved in Teresa's killing, but either way, I still think Steven is also involved or singularly involved and is trying to use his nephew (which is disgusting).  For Steven to be completely innocent as he claims would mean that the police department would have had to plant everything and somehow grab the nephew and feed him every possible detail to frame his uncle.  I simply don't think that's likely.

 

What I think is more likely is that the nephew heard Steven talk about what he did (or saw something related to the killing).  He then either got those details mixed up or the police knew that he had seen something and manipulated that, but that makes Steven still involved in some way.  I can see that the police might have done shady things in order to make sure they got Steven, but there was a crime to get Steven for.  I do not believe he is completely innocent and had no role in Teresa's death.  If Kathleen wants to represent someone, I think it should be the nephew, not Steven.

[PepperMonkey]

Yeah, the whole cat thing for me was the deal breaker.

 

I also don't buy that they planted THAT MUCH evidence. That was total overkill. If they DID do that, they're stupid.

 

He may not have been guilty of the first crime - in fact, proven to be innocent, I guess - but I hope he stays in jail.

[Calamity Jane]

Well, Russ' trial being ongoing doesn't necessarily mean that he was guilty.  That's the purpose of the trial obviously.  The detective  may still have had suspicions about Pam Hupp that he was trying to resolve.  Therefore, it could be important for him to know if Hupp really had any intention of turning the insurance money over to the girls.  If she were telling the truth, she wouldn't mind opening trust accounts.  However, if she killed for the money, she'd object to opening the accounts b/c then she wouldn't be able to get her hands on it.  The proceeds would rightly go to the girls.

 

Why would a detective be prepping her as a witness rather than her attorney doing so?  The detective would be the one to do the questioning and investigating to ferret out the truth.  The fact that Russ was already on trial is irrelevant.  His guilt or innocence had yet to be determined.  Pam could very well be the guilty party, and the detective's job would be to trip her up, starting with measuring her response to the money issue. 

She wasn't on trial, so why would she have an attorney of her own?  No, this was trial prep, perhaps done by a DA most of the time, but it seemed crystal clear to me that he was trying to make a muddy scenario turn clear.  It did look bad that she hadn't set up a trust, but instead of taking that as an indicator of her being guilty, they just took it as a problem to fix to be sure to nail the husband. 

[Calamity Jane]

I always hate these kinds of rushes to judgment as well.  I was the one who called 911 when my mother died.  I've always wondered what I sounded like on the phone during that call.  Because once she was pronounced dead and I started making calls to family members I was told by some that I was hysterical while others thought I was joking because I was so calm.  My best friend wanted to speak to the EMT's there to make sure they checked me out while my Aunt asked me several times over if I was being serious.

 

I went from crying hysterically to shifting straight into adult "this needs to be taken care of" mode to shifting into really calm and dazed in a matter of about 10 minutes.  

 

So when I hear the "he was too calm" or "he was too emotional" argument from a cop, I automatically side-eye.  Tell me, what is the proper reaction to have when you walk into a house to find someone you love dead when you weren't expecting it?  Granted my mother wasn't murdered, but it was still the last thing I expected to walk in to find when I got to my parents house that day.

I guess I should be thankful I didn't ping the radar of some overzealous cop that showed up to my house that night.  

When my husband was in his terminal illness, I had to call 911 for him one day, and I barely remembered our name and had to have my 9-year-old tell me our address.  You just don't know what a big shock will do to your cognitive processes.  A short while later I was able to dictate lesson plans to a clerk at the school.  I absolutely hate those "he/she sounded too/not enough emotional" statements -- what a dumb way to assess someone's state of mind at an emotionally fraught moment.

[Ohmo]

She wasn't on trial, so why would she have an attorney of her own?  No, this was trial prep, perhaps done by a DA most of the time, but it seemed crystal clear to me that he was trying to make a muddy scenario turn clear.  It did look bad that she hadn't set up a trust, but instead of taking that as an indicator of her being guilty, they just took it as a problem to fix to be sure to nail the husband. 

 

I don't think it was an "instead of."  I think it was a flat out directive from the DA to the prep guy to ignore the fact that Pam Hupp was a viable suspect because they were too far down the prosecution road with Russell.  There is no way to ever logically explain why Pam Hupp was never investigated, and I don't think the prosecutor is truly that brain dead.  She knew there was a screw-up by a whole bunch of people, so it turned into an exercise in "ignore the obvious and cover your ass" for her and her office.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Ohmo

[Calamity Jane]

Yes he apparently did time in jail for the cat, but the netflix documentary downplays it and tries to make it sound like an accident.

I did like that Dateline showed that there should be a hole in the blood vile. I think Avery is guilty because nothing else makes any sense, and whether he's involved or not his nephew knows something because he was talking to his cousin about it months before his arrest.

This show didn't go into it, but there was a cousin or two with a sex-offense past lurking around in the woods that day who would be a perfect suspect, and who would be able to do various things to point to Steve.  This show also did not highlight that police who were ordered to stay out of the investigation kept it up, or that one of the investigators said in an e-mail that the whole family should be gotten rid of. 

[Calamity Jane]

I despise animal abusers, but I certainly don't think that a person should serve time for murdering someone else only because he was cruel to an animal.  If he did the crime, and he may well have, then convict him fair and square.  That prosecution was flawed, the prosecutor was an egomaniac who distorted facts constantly, and it is at least possible Avery should not have been convicted based on what they had.  Let's consider for a moment that IF by some happenstance Avery is again innocent of the crime he was convicted of, the true murderer is still free.  That doesn't gel well with a cat abuser serving the time for a murder.  Animal cruelty should be prosecuted and/or punished more severely, not least because it can be a precursor to murder.  If anyone touched one of my animals, I might well end up in prison myself for what I'd do.  But punish people for the crimes they are charged with, not what they did in the past that they already served time for. 

 

Keeping in mind how botched the investigation and trial that convicted Steven Avery for the rape were, and how many troubling aspects there are to the murder case, I think that a new trial may be in order for Steve.  I am, however,  100% persuaded that one should be ordered for Brendan Dassey.  They convicted him based on a confession that absolutely does not match up to the physical evidence!  And was mostly fed to him by detectives before all the facts were in.  And he was set up by his own defense lawyer and his investigator -- that alone merits a do-over. 

 

Altogether, it was a huge mess, and for me at least highlighted how the system can steamroll over poor/ignorant/mentally slow individuals once it's been set in motion to do so.  Look at the Russell Faria case for further evidence that police and prosecutors get tunnel vision and then ignore not just possible but obvious suspects. Thinking someone and his family are all despicable individuals is not the same as proving guilt in a courtroom, by the rules. 

[cooksdelight]

A thump heard by the children in a Carlsbad, Calif., home one summer morning is the first clue in a shocking mystery involving family secrets.

[JudyObscure]

I was surprised that the first jury let her off because, "She had endured years of horrible abuse."  Abuse for which there was no evidence at all unless you count one video of him calling her a bitch.  That's not nice but it's hardly a killing offence. 

[cooksdelight]

On the one hand, her taking out the money ahead of time is something you do when you are getting ready to divorce a spouse and you don't want to be left high and dry. If you are planning to kill them, you don't worry about the money, it will all be yours anyway if you have a viable defense. And if you don't, you're screwed. I'm not sure what I think about this one.

[Tdoc72]

I didn't believe a word she said.  I'm glad the prosecutor re-tried the counts that had been hung.  She almost got away with it.  I don't buy her that she was afraid.  Her dad helped her plenty after the murder so I'm sure he would've helped her if she came to him and said she had to leave him.  I don't believe he was ever physically abusive.  And even the verbal abuse was kind of weak.  While I don't condone his calling her names (especially in front of the kids--they testified to that), I think he just got so frustrated with her.  I don't have a link, but one recorded fight was because she was supposed to be a SAHM taking care of the kids, but he found out she was putting them in daycare.  I think she was addicted to painkillers (50 bottles found on her, I wonder if she was doctor shopping) and the kids testified that she just laid in bed all the time. 

 

And the whole getting pregnant thing for the 2nd trial.  No job, no husband/boyfriend in the picture, 3 kids w/a dead dad and she feels IVF would be a good solution.  Puh-lease!  I think she just wanted the judge and/or jury to have sympathy for her, like 'oh this poor lady won't be able to raise her kid.' 

 

I feel for the 3 kids that lost their dad and mom, and his parents. (Link to a story about the kids' victim impact statements: http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Julie-Harper-Second-Degree-Murder-Sentencing-Jason-Harper-365435371.html)

[backformore]

Yeah, her "proof"  was that they had arguments in which he was upset about her not taking care of the kids, racking up debt, and that he was used "curse words" to her. Proof of abuse ?  Please!!!

 

It's really more like she wanted out, and weighed her options - divorce?  Murder??    Hmmmmm.... screw it, divorce takes too long, give me a gun!

Edited February 1, 2016 by backformore

[Ohmo]

I despise animal abusers, but I certainly don't think that a person should serve time for murdering someone else only because he was cruel to an animal.  If he did the crime, and he may well have, then convict him fair and square.

 

I'll agree that the treatment of the nephew was an over-reach, and HE should get another trial, but if I were a juror, this wouldn't have anything to do with the abuse of a cat.  I think Steven Avery is guilty, and in this particular instance, I lament the police's actions because they are going to potentially cause what I believe is the unnecessary exercise of a re-trial.  The police didn't need the nephew, in my opinion:

 

1) It was Steven Avery's junk yard.

2) There were those phone calls from Teresa to the junk yard, as well as phone calls that Steven blocked.

3) Teresa is dead

4) The cops planted EVERYTHING.  As others have said (and I agree with), I don't buy that the cops would be dumb enough to plant everything.  Corrupt is not a synonym for stupid.  Those are two different concepts.

5) I believe the blood collection expert about the tube AND (going back to the concepts of corrupt vs. stupid), that hole is BIG.  It's visible to the naked eye, and I have a difficult time buying that if you were going to tamper with a vial that you would use a needle that big.  Tampering for nefarious purposes is usually done so as not to be detected.  I believe the expert as to why the hole should be there, but I also think its size is an indication that it is a standard hole that should be there.

6) There was no preservative in the blood in the van, but the blood in the vial HAD preservative.

 

Steven did not commit the rape, but the rape and this case are two different matters.  I do think there was a miscarriage of justice for Brendan, but I don't feel that way about Steven.  I think, in Steven's case, it's too bad the jury can't say "He's still guilty even if you toss the nephew out of the equation." I don't think someone else did it.  I think Steven did it, and I could indeed convict him of this crime alone without even mentioning that he had a nephew.

 

I think he's gaming the system, conning everyone left and right, using his nephew, wasting the time of a prominent attorney, and perhaps most egregious to me, I believe trying to use his unlawful rape conviction as a license to murder another person.  This is not a Monopoly "get out of jail free" card, and that's exactly how I feel Steven is treating it.  He's the "poor victim" and it's all about him.

 

It's not that I don't think the police department did wrong.  They did during the rape investigation and their treatment of Brendan, but I ALSO think that Steven did wrong, and he's manipulating several attorneys, Netflix, and getting his 15 minutes of fame while Teresa is practically forgotten.

 

He was convicted of this crime and is in jail for this crime.  What happened to him before was a miscarriage of justice, but then is not now.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Ohmo

[BindsTheTuna]

I caught the tail-end of this, when they were interviewing the jurors who found her guilty. She really thought putting "sex" in her diary would translate to "rape"? I scoffed right along with the juror. And nice shade thrown by the other juror who said "I can't believe the previous jury didn't find her guilty."

[Ohmo]

Sigh...this is why I dislike Dateline's "non-schedule."  A new one, and I missed it.  Will now have to wait until it appears online.

[PepperMonkey]

I understand what you're saying, CJ, and what I should have said in MY post is that the cat killing/abuse was the final straw in favour of my decision that he was implicit in Teresa's murder. I DO believe he could be under the jail for animal abuse, which is my personal opinion, but he shouldn't be doing time for a murder he "didn't commit" if he's guilty of pet abuse and not the murder.

 

What I actually meant was, Idc if he rots in jail because I personally think he is guilty of the murder or at least, very involved. And the animal abuse was just the final thing that pushed ME over the edge to believe he may be guilty.

 

IMHO, just because he didn't do the rape, for which he was falsely accused, doesn't mean he may not have done the murder.

[walnutqueen]

saber5055, on 28 Jan 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:saber5055, on 28 Jan 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

While we all agree on what Pam Hupp is, my problem is with the police department and the judge, all of whom let Pam skate while putting Russ behind bars. What is being done about THEM?

 

There are plenty of Deadwoodisms I can apply to them, too, the mildest being "degenerate titlickers.  :-D

 

 

ETA - If you are ever at a loss for words when watching these shows, I suggest you peruse the "quotes" thread on the Deadwood forum for inspiration - It will expand your horizons!  :-)

Edited February 1, 2016 by walnutqueen

[CaughtOnTape]

I think what a lot of people are misunderstanding about the documentary is regardless of whether or not it was pro or con for Avery...it highlights some disturbing holes in our judicial system.  Things that should scare the living hell out of every one of us.

 

And just as the Netflix documentary could be pro-Avery I'm a bit dismayed that no one in here stopped to think for a moment that the Dateline story could have been con-Avery.

[Jillybean]

If you kill your husband, whom you profess to love, in self-defense, you don't leave the body in the house and take the kids for coffee and playtime. I wonder if this point was ever raised during the trial(s)?  Good thing the 2nd jury had their wits about them. 

 

I would love to know where she got the money for IVF, and what clinic would perform it on her under the circumstances.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Jillybean

[candall]

And just as the Netflix documentary could be pro-Avery I'm a bit dismayed that no one in here stopped to think for a moment that the Dateline story could have been con-Avery.

I did.  That's why I asked whether the cat story had been confirmed anywhere else and noted it would be a clever way to influence public opinion against a target, if that's what the police wanted.

 

The significance of the cat, though, is not about the death of one small furry creature.  Animal abusers typically escalate.  I don't think it's an overgeneralization to say that people who get a rush from inflicting pain rarely stop with one satisfying incident and then move on to healthier pursuits.

 

On Dateline, the detective said the way in which Teresa Halbach was murdered was too horrible to describe, which sounds like there was an element of torture.  And her body was burned down to the bones. . .

 

So there are hours and hours to spend on the holes in the justice system and the impact on Mr. Avery, but the similarity between what Avery once did to an animal and what happened to Ms. Halbach went unremarked?  Maybe there needs to be a doc on the making of the doc.