S22.E14: Heroes

[WendyCR72]

A week off before this one airs, on February 16, 2023:

Quote

After shots are fired in a popular nightclub, Cosgrove and Shaw suspect the spree was a ruse to target a sole victim. When security footage mysteriously disappears, Price and Maroun must rely on a witness who values reputation over facts.

 

[Xeliou66]

While the DA’s dealing with a reluctant witness is a trope that’s been done a lot - the promo for this episode looks interesting and the detective stuff sounds good as usual, I’m hoping for a strong episode. 

[storyskip]

Nolan deserves a break.

Isn’t the show supposed to be Law and Order working together?  Might be time to remind the writers of this basic plot point.

Edited February 17, 2023 by storyskip

[TakomaSnark]

Mostly boring.

But I fell out of my seat at the ending. L&O's go to (in the OG days) was always the dramatic final scene phone call telling them of something bad that happened to a witness/suspect/defendant.

Now in the age of cell phones... No one would immediately contact the prosecuting ADA about the key witness committing suicide until after said ADA gets punched in the face on the street?

Steven Hill is rolling in his grave.

Edited February 17, 2023 by TakomaSnark

[Xeliou66]

This was a very good episode other than the ending twist of the officer committing suicide - once again they tacked on an ending that felt gratuitous and unnecessary just for shock value. I wish they would have more low key endings - in this case I wish they had had the dude just punch Price because he was angry about the officer’s reputation being smeared and the episode ending on Price and Maroun contemplating all of that instead of the twist about the officer killing himself. I’m tired of these shock value endings they’ve tacked on several times this season. Other than that this episode was strong IMO - I liked Cosgrove and Shaw’s investigation as usual, it was intriguing and I wasn’t sure what direction it was going or whether the victim or the rapper would be the target of the shooting - I liked how they dug deeper and uncovered the officer’s statement had discrepancies. I did keep thinking the officer would be hiding something more than just the fact that he froze, but the plot played out fine, and I actually felt some suspense at the verdict and I was glad he was convicted. I liked Jack’s scenes as usual. This was a well done episode for the most part - there are two things that annoy me this season - the final tacked on twists at the end, those cheapen the show, and the foot chases, those waste time that could be spent fleshing out the case. So other than the tacked on twist at the end, this was well done and well executed, and it seems I’m enjoying the show more than most. 

[MerBearHou]

I may have to watch this one again, now that I know the verdict, because to me, there wasn’t enough definitive evidence to convict Bishop Bell beyond a reasonable doubt.  Seems like he could win an appeal, especially with how wishy-washy the officer was.  

Oh yeah, you could absolutely predict in TV-land how that last scene was going to play out for the officer…

The actor who played him did a great job, I thought.  

[Raja]

9 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Other than that this episode was strong IMO - I liked Cosgrove and Shaw’s investigation as usual, it was intriguing and I wasn’t sure what direction it was going or whether the victim or the rapper would be the target of the shooting -

I agree with all except the above. The Criminal Intent style of showing the crime took that part of the who done it away and as the audience we were sure of Cosgrove and Shaw's hunch that the model was specifically targeted.

[MrWhyt]

10 hours ago, MerBearHou said:

I may have to watch this one again, now that I know the verdict, because to me, there wasn’t enough definitive evidence to convict Bishop Bell beyond a reasonable doubt.  Seems like he could win an appeal, especially with how wishy-washy the officer was.  

 

that's what i came here to say. That was an extremely thin case. They established motive, had a weak general description of the shooter from the officer and evidence that he defendant was in the area around the time of the shooting. They never found a weapon or tied one to the defendant. Some testimony along the lines of "the defendant bought a gun from me" or "i saw a gun on the defendant's kitchen table" would have helped a lot.

[theartandsound]

I think I'm pretty confident in saying that this was the worst episode of any L+O, ever.

[shapeshifter]

I hadn't seen Shawn Hatosy in so long that when he appeared early and briefly as the local cop on scene, I considered that maybe he was doing bit parts now. But nope. He knocked it out of the park as per usual.
His Southern California prematurely-aged skin of Northern European ancestors may show in the closeups, but so do the character's emotions (rather than botox).

Even before Price got punched outside The Courthouse Of Closing Scene Deaths, I was wondering if Hotosy's character was home eating his gun.
And I even had time to think: But if the cop commits suicide, the killer will likely get off on the appeal. 
Then we learn that, yup, the cop killed himself. 
So a seemingly volatile (if not deranged) killer will likely get out on appeal.
More important to the show: Will we get callbacks to this moment when it effects Price——either emotionally or with regards to future choices? Or not will it just be bygones?

But we never find out why a decorated cop was frozen with fear in that moment. In his opening to the court, Price states:

• "Several witnesses will help verify that the defendant was the gunman, that he was present at the crime scene, including a decorated police officer with commendations for integrity, community service, and bravery in the line of duty."

To me, that👆 is the hanging chad for this episode, hanging chads that are now seemingly trademarks for the L&O reboot episode closing scenes.

 

I've done my share of complaining about chases scenes on this show and other police dramas, but this one was eye-catchingly choreographed and filmed.
Kudos to whomever is responsible for making the chase scene so that I couldn't tell if they used a body double or CGI when Mehcad Brooks/Shaw jumped over the fences (or if Brooks really is a bit of a ninja), and even more kudos because these fencepost hops actually worked in the scene, almost seeming a little Matrix-y, but not quite.
 

Edited February 18, 2023 by shapeshifter

[MerBearHou]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Even before Price got punched outside The Courthouse Of Closing Scene Deaths,

Spot on 😀

[howiveaddict]

I called the suicide even before the verdict.

[wknt3]

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I hadn't seen Shawn Hatosy in so long that when he appeared early and briefly as the local cop on scene, I considered that maybe he was doing bit parts now. But nope. He knocked it out of the park as per usual.

Actually as soon as I saw him there at the scene in uniform I knew something was up. He did do a great job, but none of the surprises were actually surprising. I honestly would have preferred different casting just so that it wasn't so obvious something was up. Or perhaps if he had more to do up front so that it wasn't obvious that Chekhov's beat cop was waiting for Act 3?

[Raja]

7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I hadn't seen Shawn Hatosy in so long that when he appeared early and briefly as the local cop on scene, I considered that maybe he was doing bit parts now. But nope. He knocked it out of the park as per usual.

He just finished up as one of the leads of Animal Kingdom last season

[shapeshifter]

This may have been the only comic relief dialog in the episode, but it was pretty great, IMO:

• [COSGROVE] Why does a rapper have a sneaker line? I mean, he's not very athletic on stage, standing there, swearing, rapping, wearing lots of jewelry.
   
• [SHAW] That might be... yeah, no, it is the whitest thing I've ever heard in my life. It's actually kind of cute.
  
   

[ML89]

Brooks’ and Donovan’s next acting gig - Doctor Who companions or sequel to Chariots of Fire? I think they’ve chased more suspects this season than Mike and Lennie did in two and a half seasons. 
 

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by ML89

[Morrigan2575]

This was probably the best episode they've done and they still managed to ruin it with the ending.  These writers need an intervention 🙄

[dubbel zout]

14 hours ago, wknt3 said:

Or perhaps if he had more to do up front so that it wasn't obvious that Chekhov's beat cop was waiting for Act 3?

That's always been a problem on L&O. The "name" guest star is always a critical part of the story in some way (perp, perp's fancy lawyer, perp's deus ex machina) so it's never really a surprise.

[shapeshifter]

28 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

That's always been a problem on L&O. The "name" guest star is always a critical part of the story in some way (perp, perp's fancy lawyer, perp's deus ex machina) so it's never really a surprise.

Yeah, but since the guest star could be any of the above, its not typically a spoiler on L&O as much as it is on other whodunnit shows. Sometimes the H!TG! guest star can be more of a feature than a bug.

In this episode, at the last minute I thought: No. Wait. He can't commit suicide because the perp will get out on appeal. 
And it could have gone that way with maybe Cosgrove busting into his apartment at the last minute and the cop saying he wasn't going to do it for that reason.

[Raja]

My Law & Order law student asking what error would be the grounds and wouldn't the testimony of the dead witness be entered if a new trial is ordered? 

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Raja said:

My Law & Order law student asking what error would be the grounds and wouldn't the testimony of the dead witness be entered if a new trial is ordered? 

Except for his testimony, wasn't it all circumstantial with no gun? 
And is mental illness of the key witness (as exemplified by his suicide) grounds for impeaching that testimony?

[Joimiaroxeu]

Poor Hannah Gray. Sometimes it doesn't pay to be a Good Samaritan.

I can't watch Shawn Hatosy now without thinking of the murdering, thieving, surfing psychopath he played on Animal Kingdom. When I saw him in the previews last week I assumed his character would be the villain.

That shoe store salesman's hair was fabulous. So thick and luxurious. 😸

I'm betting King Matisse peed his pants when the shooting started and he didn't want video of his wet crotch to go viral. His street cred would've been beyond destroyed.

Shaw leaping over fences like a low-rent superhero. At least this time the suspect Cosgrove and Shaw chased turned out to be the actual perp.

I don't think this was the worst episode of the reboot but IMO it was kind of weak. The main point seemed to be for the guest star to get an Emmy reel moment or two.

[blackwing]

As soon as I saw Shawn Hatosy of "Animal Kingdom" as the cop in the early part of the episode, I knew something was up and he was going to be more important later on.  Not surprising at all that he killed himself, it was telegraphed from early on.  Because as soon as Price and Maroun get a witness to do something they are uncomfortable with, something bad will happen to them.  Like the lady that got deported by ICE some weeks ago.

As always, I have to make up scenes in my head for what I assume was originally in the script but cut.

1.  The guy that deleted the video footage.  Can't he be asked to testify as to what he saw on the footage?  A guy in a blue cap and red shoes?  I really hope there are charges brought against him for obstruction.

2.  King Matisse should be charged with obstruction as well for asking the guy to delete the footage.

3.  Why are there no stories in the tabloids about Coward King Matisse?  The cocktail waitress knows it, surely there were others that saw.

4.  How come the bodega store owner wasn't put on the stand?  His testimony of Bishop's outfit and demeanor should have been relevant to the case.

5.  Why did Riley immediately admit to cowardice?  "I heard gunshots and there was little information about how many assailants or what things looked like.  I thought it was best to wait for backup.  I followed the procedure.  I saw this guy running away and I stayed on the scene in case there was anything else going on inside."

6.  How come Riley didn't have a partner?  Most cops on TV work with partners.

[KittyQ]

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

As soon as I saw Shawn Hatosy of "Animal Kingdom" as the cop in the early part of the episode, I knew something was up and he was going to be more important later on.  Not surprising at all that he killed himself, it was telegraphed from early on.  Because as soon as Price and Maroun get a witness to do something they are uncomfortable with, something bad will happen to them.  Like the lady that got deported by ICE some weeks ago.

As always, I have to make up scenes in my head for what I assume was originally in the script but cut.

1.  The guy that deleted the video footage.  Can't he be asked to testify as to what he saw on the footage?  A guy in a blue cap and red shoes?  I really hope there are charges brought against him for obstruction.

2.  King Matisse should be charged with obstruction as well for asking the guy to delete the footage.

3.  Why are there no stories in the tabloids about Coward King Matisse?  The cocktail waitress knows it, surely there were others that saw.

4.  How come the bodega store owner wasn't put on the stand?  His testimony of Bishop's outfit and demeanor should have been relevant to the case.

5.  Why did Riley immediately admit to cowardice?  "I heard gunshots and there was little information about how many assailants or what things looked like.  I thought it was best to wait for backup.  I followed the procedure.  I saw this guy running away and I stayed on the scene in case there was anything else going on inside."

6.  How come Riley didn't have a partner?  Most cops on TV work with partners.

Great questions!

I was dying for Matisse to get exposed as the coward he was. He didn't even try to find out if his "girl" was ok.

Also, deleting the footage, and ordering the footage to be deleted had to be worth some kind of charge. Obstruction of justice / investigation has to count for something.

I wonder if the plot of the officer not going into the club is meant to echo the behavior of the cops at Uvalde, TX. Although, I think those guys didn't have a lot of actual experience with active shooters, while this guy had previously been cited for bravery.  I think that was a weak point in the plot. If he had some PTSD or something that would explain him freezing, that would have helped. 

[Raja]

56 minutes ago, KittyQ said:

I wonder if the plot of the officer not going into the club is meant to echo the behavior of the cops at Uvalde, TX. Although, I think those guys didn't have a lot of actual experience with active shooters, while this guy had previously been cited for bravery.  I think that was a weak point in the plot. If he had some PTSD or something that would explain him freezing, that would have helped. 

I went to an older headline, the Parkland Florida school shooting when a lone deputy didn't charge the machineguns and his Sheriff made public statements much like the defense attorney in this episode

[KittyQ]

22 minutes ago, Raja said:

I went to an older headline, the Parkland Florida school shooting when a lone deputy didn't charge the machineguns and his Sheriff made public statements much like the defense attorney in this episode

Interesting! I didn't go that far back, but it fits. 

[Drogo]

16 hours ago, KittyQ said:

Also, deleting the footage, and ordering the footage to be deleted had to be worth some kind of charge. Obstruction of justice / investigation has to count for something.

Dixon said to charge him with obstruction, interference, and “anything else you can think of.”  Matisse didn’t walk.

[mythoughtis]

Why so all TV NYC cop chases  on foot involve people leaping over cars?  Is that really a common thing? 

Why didn’t they search Hannah’s apartment and find the letter before  they made the arrest?  It wasn’t mentioned until after they identified and arrested him.  

Edited February 20, 2023 by mythoughtis

[MinorL]

I don’t think the suicide of a witness is grounds for appeal. I don’t even know how that evidence could get in since it’s not in the record, and if it did I don’t see how you can impeach with after-the-fact conduct  that is not related to the crime (versus finding out, maybe, that the witness had an axe to grind). And, dying by suicide doesn’t necessarily mean the witness is mentally ill, nor that he’s incapable of testifying accurately. Those are fact questions for a jury, anyway, and not the kind of thing an appeals court should be reviewing for.

If there were some other grounds for appeal and the defendant were granted a new trial, the key witness being dead could be a problem, though it could get in under some hearsay exception maybe. But it’s not, itself, grounds for appeal, I don’t think. Maybe I’m misunderstanding the point, though. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by MinorL
Sentence didn’t make sense.

[shapeshifter]

9 hours ago, MinorL said:

I don’t think the suicide of a witness is grounds for appeal. I don’t even know how that evidence could get in since it’s not in the record, and if it did I don’t see how you can impeach with after-the-fact conduct  that is not related to the crime (versus finding out, maybe, that the witness had an axe to grind). And, dying by suicide doesn’t necessarily mean the witness is mentally ill, nor that he’s incapable of testifying accurately. Those are fact questions for a jury, anyway, and not the kind of thing an appeals court should be reviewing for.

If there were some other grounds for appeal and the defendant were granted a new trial, the key witness being dead could be a problem, though it could get in under some hearsay exception maybe. But it’s not, itself, grounds for appeal, I don’t think. Maybe I’m misunderstanding the point, though. 

Not sure about anyone else, but for me the connection between an appeal and the suicide was, as you worded it:

• "If there were some other grounds for appeal and the defendant were granted a new trial, the key witness being dead could be a problem"

--NOT that the key witness's suicide would trigger an appeal.

I thought they didn't find a gun and it was all circumstantial evidence except for the witness, and even the witness didn't see the shooting, so those things might be grounds for appeal--or perhaps some legal technicality, like some Fruit Of The Poisonous Tree evidence or something else. 
IDK.
It was just that at least twice it popped into my head while watching that "the key witness being dead" by suicide "could be a problem."

With such a glut of shows to watch these days, I don't rewatch episodes as often as I might otherwise, even in cases like this when I might want to see if I still react to the drama the same way, now knowing the outcome.

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by shapeshifter

[blackwing]

On 2/19/2023 at 12:04 PM, Drogo said:

Dixon said to charge him with obstruction, interference, and “anything else you can think of.”  Matisse didn’t walk.

Yes, but I wanted to see this on camera.  I wanted to see him being humiliated and exposed as a coward on camera.  But this show always seems to force us to make up these scenes in our minds.

 

10 hours ago, MinorL said:

I don’t think the suicide of a witness is grounds for appeal. I don’t even know how that evidence could get in since it’s not in the record, and if it did I don’t see how you can impeach with after-the-fact conduct  that is not related to the crime (versus finding out, maybe, that the witness had an axe to grind). And, dying by suicide doesn’t necessarily mean the witness is mentally ill, nor that he’s incapable of testifying accurately. Those are fact questions for a jury, anyway, and not the kind of thing an appeals court should be reviewing for.

If there were some other grounds for appeal and the defendant were granted a new trial, the key witness being dead could be a problem, though it could get in under some hearsay exception maybe. But it’s not, itself, grounds for appeal, I don’t think. Maybe I’m misunderstanding the point, though. 

I agree, I don't think that Riley's suicide would be grounds for appeal.  Although the defense attorney would probably claim that Riley was lying, and killed himself because of the shame of lying.  If an appeal was somehow granted, I do think Riley's testimony would be entered as a hearsay exception ("witness unavailable to testify") and I think the judge would have to give instructions to the jury as to how to consider this evidence.

Edited February 21, 2023 by blackwing

[Raja]

The question then becomes would the second jury know about the suicide when they are read the first defense attorney calling the fallen officer a coward?

[watcher1006]

On 2/16/2023 at 11:29 PM, MerBearHou said:

I may have to watch this one again, now that I know the verdict, because to me, there wasn’t enough definitive evidence to convict Bishop Bell beyond a reasonable doubt.  Seems like he could win an appeal, especially with how wishy-washy the officer was.  

Oh yeah, you could absolutely predict in TV-land how that last scene was going to play out for the officer…

The actor who played him did a great job, I thought.  

I agree with all the above posts pointing out that the prosecution's case was thin. The courtroom drama shown was about nothing BUT Reilly and his actions /inactions. No doubt we were supposed to believe that more was presented by the prosecution than we were saw, but it doesn't seem that there was all that much to present in the first place.

Regarding Reilly's freezing up in the emergency, Price did try to treat him sympathetically and nobody can know how they'd react in a similar situation. Still, given his long experience, it could have been pointed out that he could have gotten on his radio and issued a report about someone fleeing the scene, whether he got out of the car immediately or not. The guy might have gotten away but a report with description recorded at the scene /at the moment at would have had more credibility than later testimony based on later recollection. It might have also helped deflect the blame heaped on the officer for his inaction.

Honestly, these end of episode "twists" are getting tiresome.

 

[GiandujaPie]

If I had been on the jury, I would have believed the cop's testimony about seeing the defendant run out of the club with the gun. He was specific in his description, from the blue knit cap to the red boots, which are distinctive, and by then he had nothing to gain by lying. He admitted he lied earlier, to save face. If he was a liar, he would have continued to lie, to not look bad, instead of admitting what he did and saw, and allow the defense attorney to ridicule him. 

I thought this was an interesting twist. I thought the cops in Uvalde were cowardly as they had massive amounts of protective gear and had strength in numbers. If it had been one lone cop, as in this situation, I can sympathize that he froze. He's just lucky that the shooter was after a specific target and once he got her, he didn't go after anyone else. 

I had a feeling the cop would commit suicide at the end, but I'm not sure why his friend went after Price. He should have gone after the defense attorney. 

[NoReally]

On 2/18/2023 at 6:02 PM, blackwing said:

Why did Riley immediately admit to cowardice?  "I heard gunshots and there was little information about how many assailants or what things looked like.  I thought it was best to wait for backup. 

Yes! Exactly what I thought. To me, that's a perfectly plausible explanation for holding back.

[Zaffy]

It  seems like the revival's scripts are all about hot issues/topics/events but presented in a  simplistic and shallow way.
Like the cop who froze (Like the cops who did not act in that school shooting while kids were murdered, etc etc). 
Like all the comments the detectives or/and the DAs make during the episodes.
You need to have good writers in order to talk about our sh1ty world. And this L&O does not have any good writers anymore.
This episode was  stupid..stupid. I was not convinced that guy was the murderer, but it doesn't really matter, as long as we had the hero/non-hero cop situation.
And at one point they should stop with the unhappy end "shock". 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Zaffy said:

It  seems like the revival's scripts are all about hot issues/topics/events but presented in a  simplistic and shallow way.
Like the cop who froze (Like the cops who did not act in that school shooting while kids were murdered, etc etc). 
Like all the comments the detectives or/and the DAs make during the episodes.
You need to have good writers in order to talk about our sh1ty world. And this L&O does not have any good writers anymore.
This episode was  stupid..stupid. I was not convinced that guy was the murderer, but it doesn't really matter, as long as we had the hero/non-hero cop situation.
And at one point they should stop with the unhappy end "shock". 

I wonder if there’s some committee overseeing scripts to watch out for language or plot points that could trigger unfavorable social media reactions having potential to impact the bottom line of the show, franchise, or network? This could adversely effect the quality of the final scripts, especially with regards to all the dropped plot resolutions. It might also effect the quality of the writers willing to put up with such oversight. 
But I haven’t looked closely (or at all) at the writing team.

[Zaffy]

20 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I wonder if there’s some committee overseeing scripts to watch out for language or plot points that could trigger unfavorable social media reactions having potential to impact the bottom line of the show, franchise, or network? This could adversely effect the quality of the final scripts, especially with regards to all the dropped plot resolutions. It might also effect the quality of the writers willing to put up with such oversight. 
But I haven’t looked closely (or at all) at the writing team.

whatever they do, the result is weak....

[Mellowyellow]

Good episode. I could have done without the weird ending angst but it seems like that's the thing these days. Everyone has issues and this show is sprinkling it all in.

I enjoyed the episode though and thought it was well done except for the over the top ending.

Poor Nolan. He did the right thing and is always copping flack because of the show's newly found propensity for the dramatic 🤣

Really enjoying the reboot. Much better than last season imo where it started to skip around too much for my liking.

Really liking Shaw and Cosgrove. They have good energy and look like they want to be there which is lovely.