S03.E13: Frenemies - Chapter Thirteen: The Reckoning

[Trini]

Courtney and the JSA find themselves in the fight of their lives against their biggest threat yet.

Walter Carlos Garcia directed the episode written by Geoff Johns.

Airdate: 12/7/2022

[AnimeMania]

(Series Finale)

Stargirl Shot Two Endings in Case of Renewal, Season 4 Story Was 'Insane'

They shot a satisfying conclusion to the series, but they also shot a different ending in case the series was renewed. Here's hoping that that alternative ending makes onto the DVD release as well.

[Jediknight]

I hate that this show got canceled.  Come on, let it get another season on HBO Max.

Was worried about no Artemis or Shade, then Artemis shows up to kill Jordan, and Shade's giving tours for the JSA Museum.  Artemis and Cindy became full fledged members of the JSA, what they wanted, freaking awesome.  The Shade became a member of the JSA as well, and Jay even likes him.  Grundy even became a member, I bet there were so many apples ate.  That was a more than satisfying time skip.

[cambridgeguy]

I don't think having your hands free is really all you need to dig yourself out of your own grave, but hey, it's hardly the weirdest thing to happen on a comic book show.  It looks like all of the heroes teamed up and got a happy ending (Shade even mentions that Beth and Rick are getting married, for those who care about that sort of thing), although I wonder if Artemis ever told Cameron what she did to Jordan.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I can't say I have been paying particularly close attention to this season, but I'm still sad that it's a season finale.

That said, maybe someone who has been watching a little more faithfully can explain the following:

Who killed the Gambler and why?

Why did U-H basically dick around all season as Starman rather than just straight-up get rid of the JSA or do whatever? (other than, because then we wouldn't have a season)

How did Dragon King survive his seeming death in S1? At what point was his brain put in the big gorilla?

What made Mama Icicle so bloodthirsty (other than why not?)

Why did Icicle kill the Crocks?

Were Rick and Beth dating at all during the season or was the "and Rick and Beth's impending nuptials" something that they just threw in there?

How was the real Starman able to come back from his presumed death to be captured in the first place?

What had happened to Artemis between her learning her parents had been killed and her tracking down Icicle in the fast-forward? Also, are we supposed to think this was an honorable thing that she killed Icicle? Also, why was Icicle a complete idiot and standing around on the petroleum slick as Artemis explained what she was going to do, rather than going away or at least stopping, dropping and rolling?

Had we seen Beth's "combat mode" in action? Because no offense, but she's still an overweight 16-year-old girl. 

[Trini]

BRB after I finish crying... 😭

[Jack Sampson]

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I can't say I have been paying particularly close attention to this season, but I'm still sad that it's a season finale.

That said, maybe someone who has been watching a little more faithfully can explain the following:

Who killed the Gambler and why?

Why did U-H basically dick around all season as Starman rather than just straight-up get rid of the JSA or do whatever? (other than, because then we wouldn't have a season)

How did Dragon King survive his seeming death in S1? At what point was his brain put in the big gorilla?

What made Mama Icicle so bloodthirsty (other than why not?)

Why did Icicle kill the Crocks?

Were Rick and Beth dating at all during the season or was the "and Rick and Beth's impending nuptials" something that they just threw in there?

How was the real Starman able to come back from his presumed death to be captured in the first place?

What had happened to Artemis between her learning her parents had been killed and her tracking down Icicle in the fast-forward? Also, are we supposed to think this was an honorable thing that she killed Icicle? Also, why was Icicle a complete idiot and standing around on the petroleum slick as Artemis explained what she was going to do, rather than going away or at least stopping, dropping and rolling?

Had we seen Beth's "combat mode" in action? Because no offense, but she's still an overweight 16-year-old girl. 

These are the in-story explanations and some of them don't make sense.

1. Ultra-Humanite.  It's not exactly explained why.

2. He needed Courtney to believe he was worthy to use the staff, otherwise it wouldn't work for him.  As he's burying Pat he says the bond with the staff is complete.  It's not explained how he knew how to do all of Starman's moves with the staff.  It's one thing to research it but he was able to replicate Starman's control of the staff without any practice.

3. Wasn't explained.  Sometime between S2 and S3.

4. Wasn't explained other than she believed in her son's plans completely.

5. Wasn't explained really.  They found his lair so he killed them.

6. No.  And there was no indication they were anything but friends.

7. They dug him up, tied him up on the operating table and revived him with a green shot.

8. Wasn't explained.  A better question is, how is she so sure this would kill him?  So he burns, melts and eventually reconstitutes.

9. Beth's combat mode would warn her of threats and suggest various attacks.  It might work against an elderly man with a bad heart but, against anyone else, she's still just an overweight teenager.  She's better off staying back in a real fight.

Overall, it was a good end to an above average superhero show.  Maybe it ended soon enough that it didn't get horrible like the Flash.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Jack Sampson

[Diapason Untuned]

6 hours ago, Jack Sampson said:

1. Ultra-Humanite.  It's not exactly explained why.

It was because he noticed the spy cameras.

Quote

It's not explained how he knew how to do all of Starman's moves with the staff.  It's one thing to research it but he was able to replicate Starman's control of the staff without any practice.

Muscle memory is a thing.

Quote

4. Wasn't explained other than she believed in her son's plans completely.

I think her son seemingly being killed, then her grandson dating the leader of his supposed killers and said killers breaking into her house to attack her unprovoked is reason enough.

Quote

5. Wasn't explained really.  They found his lair so he killed them.

They didn't find his lair, he lured them there to kill them, probably because he viewed them as traitors.

Quote

6. No.  And there was no indication they were anything but friends.

Eh, I think they've been lowkey dropping hints about them, especially through this season.

Quote

8. Wasn't explained.  A better question is, how is she so sure this would kill him?  So he burns, melts and eventually reconstitutes.

Icicle can only control ice, burn him down to steam, there's nothing for him to control. 

[TiffanyNichelle]

1 hour ago, Diapason Untuned said:

Eh, I think they've been lowkey dropping hints about them, especially through this season.

There were so many hints last season that I was disappointed that we didn't go further with it this season. I did notice that he was there by her side when at the end with her parents and he was rubbing her back while she was apologizing for pulling back from them.

Shipper eyes activated!

I loved this finale so much. I was bummed that it was ending but the tag with Shade telling us about their later adventures and the cameo from Silver Age Flash was perfect.

Quote

How was the real Starman able to come back from his presumed death to be captured in the first place?

Dr. Mid-Nite showed up to examine "Starman" earlier this season and they decided the Staff imbued him with info cosmic energy that he started to slowly heal after Courtney reactivated the staff and started using it again. Or you know, comics, lol. But I think it was a combination of the Staff that kept him from decomposing and whatever Dragon King did.

Edited December 8, 2022 by TiffanyNichelle

[Chicago Redshirt]

Thanks for the replies. A few additional thoughts/questions:

For an award-winning actor, UH did a pretty poor job of feigning Starman. I know that he was doing some snapping and acting OOC for the benefit of us the audience, but at some point Pat in particular but pretty much everyone else should have said "Wow, he's being a dick and not at all what I expected." 

Realistically, it should be pretty impossible to pull off a long-term imitation of someone who is known pretty well to another person. There just would inevitably be something amiss in body language, memory, etc. Pat and real!Starman had a partnership that went back for years, if not decades, with all sorts of public and private times that there would be no way for UH to know about or prepare for.

I can buy that UH needed to spend time demoralizing Courtney so that he could bond to the staff better. But the misdirect of "Let's kill the ISA" doesn't make sense if he is going to try to convince Pat that he's really Starman, especially since issues about killing Eclipso had driven a wedge between them. Lots of other stuff UH did probably was not necessary either.

Yeah, Icicle lured the Krocks to his lair and then murdered them, then pretended like he didn't have a choice. That he killed them at all didn't make sense to me. I'm not sure why he would think they were traitors in general? Because they befriended the Dugans? Isn't that what he ultimately was trying to do?

I can understand that Mama Icicle would be upset thinking the JSA had killed her boy. But for the second half of the season, she knew (or should have known) a) her boy was alive and well and b) it was Mike rather than Stargirl or any other JSA member that struck Icicle.

Given Icicle's first coming back, apparently he can melt into water, have the water coalesce and then eventually reform. It seemed to me in this latest episode, he turned into a gas and was wrongly presumed dead, but Artemis knew better and tracked him down. I chalk her statements that her method of trying to kill him was foolproof as mere overconfidence.

[cambridgeguy]

51 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

For an award-winning actor, UH did a pretty poor job of feigning Starman. I know that he was doing some snapping and acting OOC for the benefit of us the audience, but at some point Pat in particular but pretty much everyone else should have said "Wow, he's being a dick and not at all what I expected." 

He had the perfect excuse, though.  Any changes would be chalked up to the trauma of coming back from the dead.  Any missing memories?  Same excuse.  In any case, It helps that Pat is so genial.  

54 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Yeah, Icicle lured the Krocks to his lair and then murdered them, then pretended like he didn't have a choice. That he killed them at all didn't make sense to me. I'm not sure why he would think they were traitors in general? Because they befriended the Dugans? Isn't that what he ultimately was trying to do?

I think he would have killed Pat and probably Mike, then tried to hook up with Barbara.  As for killing the crocks, the ISA ended up killing each other off.  Jordan also killed the Wizard, Paula killed Fiddler 2.0, either Jordan or dragon king killed the Gambler, etc.

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

He had the perfect excuse, though.  Any changes would be chalked up to the trauma of coming back from the dead.  Any missing memories?  Same excuse.  In any case, It helps that Pat is so genial.  

I think he would have killed Pat and probably Mike, then tried to hook up with Barbara.  As for killing the crocks, the ISA ended up killing each other off.  Jordan also killed the Wizard, Paula killed Fiddler 2.0, either Jordan or dragon king killed the Gambler, etc.

I get that UH had a great cover to fake any lapses/discontinuity, but it still seems like he should have done better at hiding red flags. I did think early on "That's not actual Starman" a number of times, though I have to confess that I didn't make the connection that it was UH all along given that I knew the background that UH did mind/bodyswaps all the time.

Most of the times that the ISA killed people, their motives were clearer. Not that I can remember them from years back because I'm old. But I don't remember it being an absolute mystery why X killed Y like Icicle killing the Crocks was. 

[Quark]

I thought this was a decent finale with strong performances. 

I'm mostly sad that this show got cancelled. It could have lived on for a while longer.

Nice seeing The Shade again.

[rmontro]

Looks like they saved up most of the budget for the last episode.

I wonder who is paying the medical bills to keep Sylvester's body alive?

When Shade was giving his speech about the JSA, I thought some of the things he mentioned, like bringing Sylvester back to life, and rescuing the Seven Soldiers of Victory, were probably future stories we were going to see on Stargirl.  Too bad it was cancelled.  These aren't good days for DC properties, but Stargirl is the main one I will miss.  I would gladly trade the next season of The Flash (which is worn out) for another one for Stargirl.  

And I'm probably being naive, but for some reason I feel like we haven't seen the last of Stargirl, somehow, somewhere...

6 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said:

Icicle can only control ice, burn him down to steam, there's nothing for him to control. 

Steam would condense back into water though eventually, which could be frozen.  I thought Artemis' statement about Icicle not coming back was just thrown in there for closure's sake, like a footnote from the writers.

[Terrafamilia]

I'm glad they eventually found Sylvester's brain but who did the presumed transplant back into his body. UH is brain-dead and DK is a plush chew toy. Is this kind of mad science in Dr. McNider's wheelhouse?

Dragon Queen: Scales of Justice - 😄

Edited December 9, 2022 by Terrafamilia

[ruby24]

I'd like to know why Mike is allowed to call Barbara "mom" TWICE (once last season, once this season), while we ended the show with Courtney never once calling Pat "Dad." Not once. Unbelievable.

[thuganomics85]

Curious to see what the other version of this was like in case it did get picked back up.  My best guess is that the entire 10 Years Later scene would have never happened, but I wonder if they would have still had Artemis kill off Jordan for good or if they would have found a way to have him worm his way back into things.

Pretty good series finale all things considering.  No major deaths for the good guys which is honestly almost refreshing in this day and age, almost everyone got a moment to shine, the bad guys each got a comeuppance worthy of them (especially sucks to be you, Dragon King!), and the cast all brought it home.  A few things I would have done differently or focused on more (mainly more Pat/Courtney scenes and it felt like Yolanda in particular got shafted), but I was happy.

Did like that Grandpa Mahkent ended up pushing back finally because we had been getting glimpses of him not being down with his wife and son's "Kill them all!" approach to things, so I liked how Beth won him over.  As for Grandma Mahkent: ha!  Sorry, I know I should feel bad, but her death was hilarious.  Especially Yolanda's "That was NOT my fault!"  It's true!

Ultra-Humanite might have never nailed down Sylvester perfectly, but Joel McHale continues to show that he actually could be pretty good at playing sinister characters.

Aww, Solomon Grundy is back!

Surprised they got Alicia Witt back as Mike's mom.  Didn't even have any lines, so that was probably an easy paycheck for her!

If there is an afterlife, Crusher and Paula no doubt high-fived and yelled "That's our girl!" after Artemis took out Jordan.

Only thing better than Barbara shooting Jordan with an arrow was her/Amy Smart's perfect delivery of the "We never had any kind of thing, you creep!" line.  You just built up some kind of crazy-ass relationship in your head, Icicle!

This version of The Shade really might go down as one of my favorite characters in the all of comic book media.  Jonathan Cake was just perfection in every scene he was in.

Always great seeing Jay Garrick!

Glad this show at least got a proper ending, but I will miss it.  Would have liked another season or two and get to spend more time with these characters, but I'm glad we at least got three pretty fun and entertaining seasons.  Hope the cast shines in other things going forward: Brec Bassinger in particular has a lot of star-making qualities, I think.  And Luke Wilson is the Ultimate Dad now!

[Snapdragon]

Bringing Sylvester back to life just so that he'd be conscious when they cut his head open was insanely cruel.  That was a dark opening.  Also, I found Grandma Icicle's switch from "Oh no, my husband's going to die of a heart attack!" to "I'll kill my husband if he doesn't do what I want" very abrupt.  I feel they could have just had Grandpa Ice begging her to stop fighting and her yelling that she won't right before accidentally killing herself and it would have been more effective.  

Given the sudden cancellation, I think the episode was decent.  I wish the show had been able to go for at least five seasons but at least we got the three that we did.  

[Jediknight]

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

If there is an afterlife, Crusher and Paula no doubt high-fived and yelled "That's our girl!" after Artemis took out Jordan.

They also high-fived when Pat dug himself out of the grave, and when Barb shot Jordan.

I'd like to think if Artemis did go to Nebraska, there were regular trips from the JSA to her games to support her.  I'm talking Pat, Barb, Court, Mike, Yolanda, Rick, Beth, Beth's parents (they seem like they would join to support a friend of their daughter and Rick), Cindy, Jakeem, Sylvester (when they got his brain back) and Cameron just loading up cars or RVs and heading to Lincoln to support her.  Shade, Grundy, and Shade's "charges" stay in Blue Valley in case something goes wrong.  Also Shade is aghast at the tea in Lincoln, and is disappointed that it's not soccer.

[rmontro]

15 hours ago, Snapdragon said:

Bringing Sylvester back to life just so that he'd be conscious when they cut his head open was insanely cruel.  That was a dark opening. 

Yeah, don't want to let this series go without mentioning that.  Stargirl has always had all these light and dark moments, and taking out Sylvester's brain without any anesthetic was pretty dark.  It also looked like at the end, they had put his brain on a loop so he relived those last moments over and over.  Those are some not-very-nice villains.

[ICantDoThatDave]

On 12/9/2022 at 4:27 AM, Jediknight said:

I'd like to think if Artemis did go to Nebraska, there were regular trips from the JSA to her games to support her.

One of the least believable things to happen in this show with superpowers, people coming back to life, & characters swapping brains is the idea that Artemis would get recruited to play for Nebraska. She was incredibly under-sized & couldn't even get playing time on her small town football team without her parents threatening/killing her coaches into giving her undeserved playing time.

[Jediknight]

9 hours ago, ICantDoThatDave said:

One of the least believable things to happen in this show with superpowers, people coming back to life, & characters swapping brains is the idea that Artemis would get recruited to play for Nebraska. She was incredibly under-sized & couldn't even get playing time on her small town football team without her parents threatening/killing her coaches into giving her undeserved playing time.

Have you seen the shape that Nebraska's program is in?  Not that unbelievable they'd recruit her.

[Jack Sampson]

10 hours ago, ICantDoThatDave said:

One of the least believable things to happen in this show with superpowers, people coming back to life, & characters swapping brains is the idea that Artemis would get recruited to play for Nebraska. She was incredibly under-sized & couldn't even get playing time on her small town football team without her parents threatening/killing her coaches into giving her undeserved playing time.

Plus, based on her displayed strength, she'd never pass a steroid test.

[Lantern7]

"Hello, and welcome to the Hall Of Premature Endings! I am Richard Swift better known as the Shade, perhaps the most popular adult [he pronounces it 'ah-delt'] in the series. Well, save for Barbara. And Pat. And the Crocks. And Zee . . . you know, I should move on.

"It is ten years into the future, and Starg- . . . oh, pardon me . . . Starwoman is leading the Justice Society to great things. I'm going to recite superhero names, throw in a few that only the diehard fans of Geoff's JSA run will remember, and then reveal that Rick and Beth are to be wed. It is best not to ponder too hard about this, given that Rick looked 32-years-old and Beth looked . . . what was the phrase Barbara taught me? Ah, yes . . . 'Young Sheldon.' Whatever that means. What's that? I am the embodiment of darkness and also severely British. Of course I do not watch American television.

"Oh, and Sylvester Pemberton's brain was reunited with his body. This is the Hall of Predetermined Endings, and we want to wrap things up. We cannot have a Jamie Chung 'blink' through a portal to tease comic canon things that would never air on The Gifted because it only deserved two seasons. No, I was telling the truth. I abhor television. I do not know what a 'Kardashian' is, but I dread coming across one.

"That is about it. It's a shame that the series will end with me. Well, me and John Shipp, who will be showing up as Jay Garrick. No, I don't know why he played Flash here and that other show. Oh, and I forgot to tell you that Buddy gained ultimate power upon consuming the arm of the stuffed toy that Ultra-Humanite had become. Luckily, with the time he spent amongst the Dugans and Whitmores, he was able to do great things. I understand he is on Earth-1 helping Barry Allen with his final season. At least he has a finale to prepare for . . . the bastard. Pip-Pip, Tooodle-Ooo, Bob's Your Uncle and so on. I am so very English.  Oh, and feel free to start writing letters demanding a fourth season. We did get two additional seasons of Young Justice, so anything is- okay, yes, I watch television! If you have a problem with me fibbing about that, I suggest you speak into the infinite void that is my bum."

I'd like to think there's some deep black-ops organization like ARGUS on this Earth, and they got two drawers in the deepest levels: one for the stuffed toy, one for the Eclipso toast. Thanks, Jakeem! You and Mike were still raging dorks, though!

It's a shame that things had to be wrapped up so neatly without much of a fuss, but I'm okay with it. Maybe Grandpa Icicle lived the remainder of his life not saying sinister stuff in Norwegian. My head canon says that Artemis was probably genetically enhanced, and there would be no way she'd be able to advance as a football player. Also, we never got to see her and Cindy continue to reform. I mean, Cindy did a lot of malicious shit in the past, including grabbing Yolanda's topless snap and posting it everywhere. Just because she didn't eviscerate Mike and Jakeem don't automatically make her a good guy. I like to think she let Jakeem down gently, though.

S2 ended with Mister Bones . . . and we only got two episodes of him and Keith David. I'm also guessing there are a lot of fans doing searches for "Infinity Inc." Truthfully, that should've been the hero group's name. It would've worked better than "Young All-Stars." Lame name, nice shout-out, though.

Yes, I was annoyed with the lack of Buddy. He must have done something to piss the producers and/or writers off.

I'm going to miss this show. All we ave left of DC properties on the CW are a meandering Flash and a slightly above-average Superman & Lois. Given how Warner Bros/Discovery has waged its war on fun stuff, that show will probably get a rushed ending as well.

I should probably start reading about Brec talking about the aborted fourth season.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Lantern7

[RobertDeSneero]

On 12/7/2022 at 11:46 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I can't say I have been paying particularly close attention to this season, but I'm still sad that it's a season finale.

That said, maybe someone who has been watching a little more faithfully can explain the following:

Who killed the Gambler and why?

Why did U-H basically dick around all season as Starman rather than just straight-up get rid of the JSA or do whatever? (other than, because then we wouldn't have a season)

How did Dragon King survive his seeming death in S1? At what point was his brain put in the big gorilla?

What made Mama Icicle so bloodthirsty (other than why not?)

Why did Icicle kill the Crocks?

Were Rick and Beth dating at all during the season or was the "and Rick and Beth's impending nuptials" something that they just threw in there?

How was the real Starman able to come back from his presumed death to be captured in the first place?

What had happened to Artemis between her learning her parents had been killed and her tracking down Icicle in the fast-forward? Also, are we supposed to think this was an honorable thing that she killed Icicle? Also, why was Icicle a complete idiot and standing around on the petroleum slick as Artemis explained what she was going to do, rather than going away or at least stopping, dropping and rolling?

Had we seen Beth's "combat mode" in action? Because no offense, but she's still an overweight 16-year-old girl. 

My theory is that the Gambler and the Crocks were killed because they were going straight and could have known stuff about Icicle, Dragon King, and Ultra-Humanite that could have derailed their plans.  Also, Gambler discovered Icicle's camera feeds.  It looks like Dragon King in the gorilla body killed Gambler at the behest of Icicle.

Ultra-Humanite needed the entire season to bond with the staff.  Also, Icicle's plan was to have UH run for president in Starman's body, so he needs to be surrounded by his supportive friends as props.

Dragon King was alive because he had experimented on himself so much that he could survive being stabbed.  They even said that they weren't sure if he could be killed because of that.

Grannie Ice was just a one-dimensional character who was evil to the core.

Rick and Beth were not shown dating, but there were clear signs they could go in that direction.

It seemed like Icicle was kind of stuck in the petroleum jelly.  I would guess Artemis took some time to make sure he was live, track him down, and come up with a plan that would end him for good.

Beth previously used combat mode in fighting Grandpa Icicle in the throwdown at the Mahkent house.

[RobertDeSneero]

On 12/8/2022 at 4:38 PM, rmontro said:

When Shade was giving his speech about the JSA, I thought some of the things he mentioned, like bringing Sylvester back to life, and rescuing the Seven Soldiers of Victory, were probably future stories we were going to see on Stargirl. 

The Seven Soldiers was something I thought was a definitely possibility for a future season.  Justin, the Shining Knight, went looking for them and he, Starman, and Stripesy were members of the group (which included the Green Arrow in the comics....Stephen Amell in a cameo showing off a lighter version of Oliver Queen who fits this show's tone?).  

[AAEBoiler]

I was really hoping that Cameron would've learned that his Grandma (it was the grandma, right?) was responsible for Mr. Deisinger's death.

[rmontro]

16 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Justin, the Shining Knight, went looking for them and he, Starman, and Stripesy were members of the group (which included the Green Arrow in the comics....Stephen Amell in a cameo showing off a lighter version of Oliver Queen who fits this show's tone?).  

It would have been cool to see Amell commit to the Golden Age version by shaving off his facial hair, with sidekick Speedy, an Arrow-mobile, and lots of trick arrows.

[Lantern7]

19 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

The Seven Soldiers was something I thought was a definitely possibility for a future season.  Justin, the Shining Knight, went looking for them and he, Starman, and Stripesy were members of the group (which included the Green Arrow in the comics....Stephen Amell in a cameo showing off a lighter version of Oliver Queen who fits this show's tone?).  

At the start, I figured that arc had already happened, and that would explain the old vibe with Pat . . . he would be born in the early 20th Century, disappeared in the mid-Forties, and popped up in the present a few years before the fall of the JSA.

15 hours ago, AAEBoiler said:

I was really hoping that Cameron would've learned that his Grandma (it was the grandma, right?) was responsible for Mr. Deisinger's death.

“Hey, Grandpa. Now that things have calmed down, I’m noticing a weird smell in the dumpster. Any idea what that could be?” “(facepalming, muttering in a Scandinavian tongue)”

ETA: Any links about where the series was supposed to go?

Edited December 13, 2022 by Lantern7

[Trini]

I'm going to miss these characters.  :(

Wow, horrible opening scene for Starman! 😭

I was surprised that the big battles were done by the halfway point; it made sense with all the things they needed to tie up afterwards, though.

The fights are always good on this show; I'm just sad it took so long to see Stargirl and STRIPE in action again. So proud of Jakeem! But again, I don't know why they waited until the end to have him be great. ('Turned into a plushie' was NOT on my list of possible deaths!) It was also nice that they managed to give Barbara a little part in the battle. Artemis has been criminally underused this season, but at least she was able to end Icicle for good!

I guess they felt they had to tie up that thread about Mike's mother, but I don't know if it was really necessary. On the other hand, I did really like that Courtney found the Gambler's daughter and gave her some closure. Also happy that Beth made up with her parents; sad that we're never going to see her new costume!

I'm glad they didn't have Cameron turn villain, and him and Courtney reuniting at the end was sweet. I was rooting for them! But speaking of couples -- Am I supposed to be happy with a line about Beth & Rick getting married when they never built that up in three entire seasons? One of my disappointments with the show overall.

The flashforward at the end was really good, though; even if a bit sad since the show is done. And these namedrops, etc., definitely felt like Season 4 storylines we won't get to see. Jay Garrick cameo was cool (I wonder where/when he was running from?); and I loved that they recreated that Alex Ross cover of Jakeem and Thunderbolt:

[Trini]

On 12/9/2022 at 1:25 AM, thuganomics85 said:

And Luke Wilson is the Ultimate Dad now!

It's really between him and Jin from Kung Fu as to who is the Best CW Dad! (I admit I don't watch all the CW shows, so maybe there's a another contender.)

On 12/8/2022 at 5:38 PM, rmontro said:

These aren't good days for DC properties, but Stargirl is the main one I will miss.  I would gladly trade the next season of The Flash (which is worn out) for another one for Stargirl. 

On 12/11/2022 at 2:39 AM, Lantern7 said:

I'm going to miss this show. All we ave left of DC properties on the CW are a meandering Flash and a slightly above-average Superman & Lois. Given how Warner Bros/Discovery has waged its war on fun stuff, that show will probably get a rushed ending as well.

I'm still a fan, but I'm kinda dreading what Flash might do for it's final season. I know it's not going to be as solid as this show. (Stargirl only had 3 seasons to tie up, though.)

On 12/11/2022 at 2:39 AM, Lantern7 said:

I'd like to think there's some deep black-ops organization like ARGUS on this Earth, and they got two drawers in the deepest levels: one for the stuffed toy, one for the Eclipso toast. ...

I honestly worry about that toast and how secure it is. I hope Earth-2 does have an ARGUS!

[cambridgeguy]

6 hours ago, Trini said:

I guess they felt they had to tie up that thread about Mike's mother, but I don't know if it was really necessary.

I think it was necessary once they decided to bring it up, but they really needed to show more of the steps leading to the diner meeting.  What was Mike's reaction when Pat told him?  Where was the conversation between Mike and Courtney about meeting your long lost parent and how horribly it can go?  Plus we never really saw them address Pat focusing on one kid over the other (i.e the Joe West/Clark Kent parenting approach).

[MsVixen]

17 hours ago, Trini said:

I'm glad they didn't have Cameron turn villain, and him and Courtney reuniting at the end was sweet. I was rooting for them! But speaking of couples -- Am I supposed to be happy with a line about Beth & Rick getting married when they never built that up in three entire seasons? One of my disappointments with the show overall.

The flashforward at the end was really good, though; even if a bit sad since the show is done. And these namedrops, etc., definitely felt like Season 4 storylines we won't get to see. Jay Garrick cameo was cool (I wonder where/when he was running from?); and I loved that they recreated that Alex Ross cover of Jakeem and Thunderbolt:

The Beth and Rick coupling is from the Infinity Inc, comic book.  Beth was a full time MD and Rick had a crush on her.  

Where did Jay Garrick come from?  Another Earth?  I thought he was killed along with the other Justice Society members.

Loved that Artemis got some time on the show.

[Trini]

3 hours ago, MsVixen said:

The Beth and Rick coupling is from the Infinity Inc, comic book.  Beth was a full time MD and Rick had a crush on her.  

Yes, I know they are pairing from the comics. My issue is that we never got to see any of that onscreen, like we should have, instead of a throwaway line in the last two minutes of the series.

[MsVixen]

17 hours ago, Trini said:

Yes, I know they are pairing from the comics. My issue is that we never got to see any of that onscreen, like we should have, instead of a throwaway line in the last two minutes of the series.

I guess because they are depicted as teenagers in the show.   Romance hasn't been a top priority except for Courtney.

[Trini]

13 minutes ago, MsVixen said:

I guess because they are depicted as teenagers in the show.   Romance hasn't been a top priority except for Courtney.

LOL -- It's definitely not because they're teens; on the network known for teen romance drama. But yes, the showrunners/writers didn't have romance as a priority for anyone, until this season with Courtney and Cameron.

[tennisgurl]

I'm sad to see this show go, its one of the victims of the CW purge that I will miss the most and definitely the DC show I am saddest to see go, it had so much more potential, but at least we got a good series finale. Some of it was pretty rushed, you could definitely tell where they were quickly trying to wrap up subplots like Mike's mom and Yolanda's parental issues, but I really appreciate that they spent time on just about every loose thread and tried to give the characters and the fans some closure. Every major character got their big moment, the bad guys all got their karmic comeuppance, the heroes got happy endings and redemptions, and we end on the adventure continuing. I really liked this show, its always been a ton of fun, it has a great cast, and I have always loved how much it embraced its superhero roots, and while I am sad to see it ending, I am really glad they ended on a high note. 

That opening was brutal, poor Sylvester, that's horrific. This show might be mostly colorful and fun, but it can also be very dark, lets not forget its shockingly high number of children and teens who have been brutally murdered over the course of the show. At least it sounds like they were able to help him at some point between now and the time jump epilogue.   

Great seeing how many characters came back, especially the Shade, now as a delightfully British tour guide/wedding officiant/JSA member, the original Flash, and Artemis taking down Icicle for one and for all. You know her parents were watching this with pride, like Paula was probably applauding Barbara when she used her crossbow to chase off Jordan. I have always loved the Shade as a character, and Jonathan Cake is definitely my favorite version of him in any adaptation I have seen. I can imagine that some of the things mentioned in the epilogue by the Shade were going to be plots in later seasons, like the romance between Rick and Beth and the JSA finally saving the Seven Soldiers, I am sad that we wont see any of those stories but at least we know they happened. 

Poor Cameron, its no fun realizing that your family is evil, and that your dad is up for killing you and acting like its totally your own fault for being murdered by your parent, like poor Henry. At least his grandpa is alive and has given up on evil, and he gets to finally be with Courtney and be a part of the JSA, so its not all bad. Hopefully his grandpa tells him the truth about grandma murdering his teacher. 

Its sad to see another DC superhero show bite the dust as the Arrowverse more or less winds down (even the shows just set in the same multiverse) but I am glad that we got three seasons and a good ending! I love these characters and I am glad that they got a happy ending, even if I would have loved to have more. 

[StaceyNotStacie]

On 12/13/2022 at 8:50 PM, Trini said:

Yes, I know they are pairing from the comics. My issue is that we never got to see any of that onscreen, like we should have, instead of a throwaway line in the last two minutes of the series.

I wonder if this was something that happened in the future where Beth’s family took him in and they eventually grew closer throughout the years. 
 

It was a decent ending. My only complaint was that Cindy’s father wasn’t stuck in a Beebo stuffed animal. 

[bettername2come]

On 12/15/2022 at 6:48 PM, StaceyNotStacie said:

My only complaint was that Cindy’s father wasn’t stuck in a Beebo stuffed animal. 

But it reminded me of Beebo and that's a good thing! And Buddy got a new toy!

This episode was like Return of the King with ending after ending. 

Poor Starman. I love that his last words were worrying about Pat, and I'm glad he gets brought back in the future. 

I was really expecting more from Pat when he talked about how to get untied after he'd been held hostage before. I was hoping he'd start in on these steps: https://www.worstcasescenario.com/blog/how-to-survive-being-buried-alive. And that was loosely packed dirt, I have no problem believing he got out.