S09.E29: The British Monarchy

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Main topic: The British Monarchy

Also: Reaction by the other PA senator to John Fetterman's win; Fox News response to Democratic victories in the midterms; DeSantis as DeFuture; Steve Kornacki is never not at the big board; King Charles III "dig that crazy rhythm"; UK responses to Queen Elizabeth's death

Original air date 2022.11.13

[Annber03]

"I am looking at you with...certain thoughts in my head."

O__O

....ooooooookay, then...  He sounds charming!

But yeah, talk about having it both ways - they don't hold any real legitimate power anymore, and yet they supposedly need all these properties and protections and other assets and whatnot. Money that could be put to SO MUCH better use to help benefit the people they're supposedly serving and ruling. Speeches and visits alone aren't enough, I fully agree they need to do so much more to truly show that they're learning from the abhorrent actions of their ancestors, and trying to set things right. That whole thing about that debt STILL being paid off as recently as 2015...and that it's to the enslavers, who, y'know, are long dead, no less...I mean, on the one hand I'm not surprised, because, well...*Gestures at all of human history in regards to slavery*. But on the other hand, what the actual fuck? That's just beyond absurd. 

As for that guy from that Australian program griping about indigenous people and the soccer team, oh, look, a white guy complaining about something relating to women and minorities. What a shocker :/. 

On a lighter note, I officially love and support Senator Lidia Thorpe :D. And in U.S. news, needless to say I am very pleasantly surprised by the results of this week's election. I love all the pundits fumbling and trying to figure out why the GOP blew this - gosh, almost like taking away women's reproductive rights, pushing an authoritarian agenda, watching the party and its supporters try and literally destroy our democracy on January 6th of last year and continuing to bellyache about the 2020 election well after everyone else had long moved on, and having absolutely zero solutions to any of the actual problems people were facing, turned off and scared the hell out of most voters. Who knew? They way, WAY overstepped their bounds and I'm glad they got a hard, cold splash of reality dumped on them. 

I also love them suddenly "seeing the light" that Trump was toxic to their party's continued success. You're about six years too late on that realization, people. I hope their inability and refusal to rein Trump in over the years continues to be a massive albatross around their necks. Especially since it's clear they aren't getting the right message by looking to DeSantis, who wants so badly to be Trump 2.0, as the future of their party. And indeed, the thought of DeSantis as leader is frightening on so many levels, but given he and Trump are apparently at odds, maybe we'll be lucky and that little tiff will backfire on both of them and the GOP as a whole. 

In the meantime, definitely celebrating the actual good news from this week, and hoping the Democrats take the right tactics and lessons from this to help keep the momentum up going forward in general. 

[Jodithgrace]

So, did they show this segment in Britain, or did you just get Winston Churchill on replay? 
 

Sigh…tomorrow I’m doing a presentation on the US Plains Indians and what happened to them…it’s the same old story. We white people have a lot to answer for, I’m afraid. 

[ahisma]

1 hour ago, Annber03 said:

"I am looking at you with...certain thoughts in my head."

O__O

....ooooooookay, then...  He sounds charming!

Unbelievably creepy! That he was awarded an MBE is horrifying. “War crimes eyes” was spot on. 

I ❤️ Steve Kornacki at the big board 🙂

[swanpride]

What, the democrats animated women and young people to vote? Oh the humanity!!!!

Oddly I yesterday watched "The Crown", hence this segment about the state of the British Monarchie came very timely. So glad that someone with cloud pokes holes in the whole "they are a good investment" nonsense. 

[SnideAsides]

On behalf of Australia, we'd like to apologise for Caleb. (He's basically the local equivalent of "what if one of those precocious kids Ellen used to invite on her show all the time, except all grown up?")

[andromeda331]

Yeah, they do want to have it both ways. They get a lot of money that could be better used. Plus they get a lot of money from the government and have private funds. Do they really need both? Probably not.

I love how no one will apologize for past horrors. Is it really that hard?  No, it's really not nor is it that  much to ask for. 

That one asshole refused to answer that he gave the order. That's bullshit.   

Yes, we whites have a lot to answer for. It really shouldn't be that hard.

[Pj3422]

11 hours ago, ahisma said:

Unbelievably creepy! That he was awarded an MBE is horrifying. “War crimes eyes” was spot on. 

I ❤️ Steve Kornacki at the big board 🙂

Terence Gavaghan was the creepy guy. I looked him up afterwards. Boots on necks were possibly the lightest of the atrocities committed. It’s nauseating. 

[ShadowKnight2]

Great show, last night. And I'm in agreement with John Oliver about the midterm results. While it's great for Democrats and their supporters about the results, Republicans have a bit of rope given to them. And they will try to take full advantage of messing up the Democrats agenda going forward. So yeah, enjoy the victory now Dems. Because the very hard work will have to continue if democracy is to survive in America!

The main story of the British monarchy was something else. I'm no fan of the monarchy, and last night's show emphasized that. That story about Britain squashing the Kenya uprising, and what they did afterwards was shocking. That commander, who gave those orders to put boots on the neck of Kenyans, and who was later given the MBE for his role there, should have both his neck and face with boots standing on them. If Queen Elizabeth knew about all that, then shame, shame on her!

I can't expect the monarchy to continue in the future. Charles is nowhere close to being as popular as his mother was, especially given the divorce he had with Diana. And given the ugliness surrounding Andrew, and the sibling rivalry between William and Harry, I expect the British monarchy to dissolve within a decade or two.

Steve Kornacki is such an ass!

[peeayebee]

It really is bad that the royal family gets so much money. I mean, they get the grant from the government, so why do they need all the other income? I know, "need" is probably not the right word to use, because the answer is, No they don't need all this money. But is it really that hard for someone in the family to have a paradigm shift and see that they can help the country and the people of the country by giving that money back in some way. Give subsidies to citizens for their energy costs, for their food costs. And of course there are so many other ways the money can go to the People. Bonus: The royal family would create a lot of good will. 

Charles saying, "Dig that crazy rhythm," was just about the cringy-est thing I've seen lately.

[marina to]

I have a big problem with the main piece. As the monarchy was stripped of all political power, their role of state means they speak for the government. So tell me, what could Elizabeth then, or Charles even now, do? Formal apologies and reparations have to be approved by the government. The reigning monarch saying anything would set off a political firestorm. Look at what happened when Charles stated his own opinions about things while he was Prince of Wales. There was a lot of telling him to shut up. What has happened in the name of crown is horrific and quite frankly, Charles strikes me as someone who is very well aware of that. All these years of going around the world visiting the various citizens of the commonwealth has been the best education someone in his role can get. The question is, what can he do? If stories are to be believed, he is restricted from even making suggestions as monarch. This is something he is going to wrestle with and there aren't easy answers.

John is also remiss in not mentioning that there were rumours going around before the queen died that Charles is very aware of public perception of the monarchy and wants to institute some major changes that will reduce or eliminate the reliance of public money. This too, is going to require some political maneuvering both in The Firm and in the government. He'll need some time to do this. Been kind of hard since the current British government has had to focus on some other urgent priorities. 

I get John hates the monarchy. As a Canadian citizen, I feel the monarchy does a valuable role to play in statecraft. I am so grateful our political leader is not our head of state. The monarch's representative in Canada has been for a long time now a Canadian citizen appointed by the Queen and it's served us well. (Looking at you, Stephen Harper!) I like the Commonwealth. I don't mind my tax dollars paying for royal visits because they are a wonderful theatrical pageant, and I'm a fan of those.

And I like Charles. He's not perfect but from what I can see, he learned from his mistakes. He's had to live his whole life in a public fishbowl. His devoted love to Camilla, even when he was asked to sacrifice her for, let's be honest, bullshit, I find admirable. Note that there was no pushback for his sons marrying commoners - they learned. He's not afraid to look silly while trying to understand others' perspectives, which is what I see when I watch that clip with the DJ that John used to mock. He's been a small farm/organic farm advocate for decades and tested a lot of now accepted practices on his own land. He's thought about the world (check out his book Harmony, it really impressed me). Also, the guy just lost his mom and is having to make this system he just inherited his own. That takes time. I'm willing to give that to him.

Edited November 14, 2022 by marina to

[Annber03]

2 hours ago, peeayebee said:

Charles saying, "Dig that crazy rhythm," was just about the cringy-est thing I've seen lately.

John and I had the exact same reaction to that clip. 

[iMonrey]

I'm not here to defend the monarchy. As Tracy Ullman says: "We pay them millions and millions of pounds just so they can be better than everyone else."

That said, I think subjects of the monarchy have every right to feel pride in their heritage and traditions. Here in the U.S., patriotism is practically a religion to a lot of people. We have a lot of unfortunate history ourselves, and this country is only around 250 years old. England's history goes back over 1600 years. So I don't think we have any business pointing the finger and criticizing if people there want to maintain the monarchy as an identity.

Enjoyed the clips of Fox News complaining about single women and Gen Z voters, but Jon Stewart pretty much already covered this. Their answer to the results seems to be "we need to restrict this more."

[PrincessPurrsALot]

4 hours ago, peeayebee said:

Charles saying, "Dig that crazy rhythm," was just about the cringy-est thing I've seen lately.

Chuck is one hep cat!

I had seen that clip before and one of him break dancing.  In the latter, while he looks silly, I do give him credit for trying.  The people he was with were showing him moves and encouraged him to get on the dancefloor. Still didn't stop me from having a good laugh.  

[Tiggertoo]

I’m getting tired of this show.  I’m disagreeing more often with the show’s take on things. And the bits meant to be funny leave me cold sometimes.  I mean, repeating ‘big board’ and ‘Steve Kornacki’ over and over just isn’t funny to me.  And when he tries to inject humour into his main stories, it still sometimes comes across as frat boy style.

Unpopular opinion, maybe.

[purist]

On 11/14/2022 at 3:56 PM, Annber03 said:

As for that guy from that Australian program griping about indigenous people and the soccer team, oh, look, a white guy complaining about something relating to women and minorities.

That dickwad is on Sky News After Dark, which is Australia's equivalent of the worst of Fox News. And as an Australian who loves the game, I feel the need to point out it wasn't a soccer team - it was an Australian Rules football team, part of the Australian Football League (AFL) Women's competition. Australian Rules footy is the best game in the world, and AFLW is its brightest and best iteration!

[Enigma X]

I still love Last Week Tonight and agree with John (and/or his staff writers) 85% of the time. I agree with most of his thoughts on the monarchy. Although Charles cannot be blamed for actual acts he did not order, a mere apology doesn't cut it when much of your wealth you relish today is from the detriment  (actual physical harm) placed upon others not that long ago. The Royal family is not the only guilty party in this, but they are guilty. It does not make it better by uttering statements like, "I hope we were not too bad on you."

Edited November 15, 2022 by Enigma X
Had not had coffee and did not make sense

[paigow]

5 hours ago, Tiggertoo said:

I’m getting tired of this show.  I’m disagreeing more often with the show’s take on things. And the bits meant to be funny leave me cold sometimes. 

Maybe Trevor Noah [after his global stand-up tour] and John should swap jobs...

[Welshman in Ca]

I find myself agreeing with John 80 % of the time lately and his views on the monarchy are well known. He was being very selective with the clips that he showed especially of the football fans singing Lizzie's in a box, they were Glasgow Celtic supporters and they always supported a free Ireland & the IRA, about as anti monarchy as you could possibly get anywhere in the world and were the same when Lord Mountbatten was blown up by the IRA with their cheering and applauding the act. The Glasgow Rangers supporters would have been the polar opposite with flags of the queen and pictures around the stadium but that wouldn't have given John the narrative that he needed. Do we deduce from that that John would be happy with murdering the monarchy to get rid of them because that could be read into what he was aiming for with his piece. His whole message was lost on me after he started with the Glasgow Celtic football supporters who would have been happy with any member of the royal family not being around no matter how they died.

The clip of Charles looked like it was from the 80s and was certainly cringe worthy and there was a lot more he could have shown but didn't. I can understand why his piece was not shown in the UK just after the Queen had died but would doubt very much if the current show was cut in any way, there's a lot of people who feel the same way about them as John but the large majority of the UK are happy with the way things are.

[paigow]

3 hours ago, Welshman in Ca said:

Glasgow Celtic supporters and they always supported a free Ireland & the IRA,  The Glasgow Rangers supporters would have been the polar opposite with flags of the queen and pictures around the stadium 

This must be a quirk that parts of Glasgow are a hotbed of IRA supporters. Surprised they would not be Scottish Separatists/ Secessionists instead... 

[PrincessPurrsALot]

John put it out there that about 1/3 of the UK is more aligned with his viewpoint; 2/3 is not. I don't see this as him trying to say everyone agrees with his viewpoint. I found the financial side of it interesting.  The royals are very wealthy and are supported by the state.  In their positions, I can see the government paying for those things needed to support them in their role, but there also needs to be a level of reason applied. 

[Welshman in Ca]

40 minutes ago, paigow said:

This must be a quirk that parts of Glasgow are a hotbed of IRA supporters. Surprised they would not be Scottish Separatists/ Secessionists instead... 

A lot of the towns between Glasgow & Edinburgh are the same as the cities and they also have separate schools, catholic & then everything else, I was 14 when we moved to Scotland and I didn't know anything about it either. I left as soon as I could get out of school & leave home at 16, 2 days after my 16th birthday, both factions hated the English but were happy to beat the crap out of a Welsh kid if there were no English around.

It all has to do with Ireland and Northern Ireland, the catholics support one side & the protestants support the other (N. Ireland) and whichever paramilitary arm belonged to each side so neither had clean hands. We're talking 40 years ago but my sister lives there with her boyfriend and tells me that nothing much has changed even though the money to support them dried up after 9/11.

[Traveller519]

22 hours ago, marina to said:

I have a big problem with the main piece. As the monarchy was stripped of all political power, their role of state means they speak for the government. So tell me, what could Elizabeth then, or Charles even now, do? Formal apologies and reparations have to be approved by the government. The reigning monarch saying anything would set off a political firestorm. Look at what happened when Charles stated his own opinions about things while he was Prince of Wales. There was a lot of telling him to shut up. What has happened in the name of crown is horrific and quite frankly, Charles strikes me as someone who is very well aware of that. All these years of going around the world visiting the various citizens of the commonwealth has been the best education someone in his role can get. The question is, what can he do? If stories are to be believed, he is restricted from even making suggestions as monarch. This is something he is going to wrestle with and there aren't easy answers.

John is also remiss in not mentioning that there were rumours going around before the queen died that Charles is very aware of public perception of the monarchy and wants to institute some major changes that will reduce or eliminate the reliance of public money. This too, is going to require some political maneuvering both in The Firm and in the government. He'll need some time to do this. Been kind of hard since the current British government has had to focus on some other urgent priorities. 

I get John hates the monarchy. As a Canadian citizen, I feel the monarchy does a valuable role to play in statecraft. I am so grateful our political leader is not our head of state. The monarch's representative in Canada has been for a long time now a Canadian citizen appointed by the Queen and it's served us well. (Looking at you, Stephen Harper!) I like the Commonwealth. I don't mind my tax dollars paying for royal visits because they are a wonderful theatrical pageant, and I'm a fan of those.

And I like Charles. He's not perfect but from what I can see, he learned from his mistakes. He's had to live his whole life in a public fishbowl. His devoted love to Camilla, even when he was asked to sacrifice her for, let's be honest, bullshit, I find admirable. Note that there was no pushback for his sons marrying commoners - they learned. He's not afraid to look silly while trying to understand others' perspectives, which is what I see when I watch that clip with the DJ that John used to mock. He's been a small farm/organic farm advocate for decades and tested a lot of now accepted practices on his own land. He's thought about the world (check out his book Harmony, it really impressed me). Also, the guy just lost his mom and is having to make this system he just inherited his own. That takes time. I'm willing to give that to him.

I really appreciated your response. I'm also Canadian and have lived in Australia and go back and forth on my views of the monarchy, especially in the commonwealth countries.

I did a good bit of reading following Elizabeth's passing and ultimately I feel there is great value in the Monarchy for England (and admittedly less for certain areas of the broader UK). I see the value in a permanent head of state who is not political, but is fiercely loyal to the country. I think your country can handle a Prime Minister that only lasts a month and half when there is that broader stability. That is there's more to it, than "It's a nice thing that makes us unique, or having someone to great foreign dignitaries." Whereas the US was born from rebellion, modern Britain has been dictated by its stability under a monarch, and I get why those concepts feel so diametrically opposed to each nation when viewing the other.

However, in my own country I continue to see less and less practical application to the monarchy. I think it keeps us tethered a little too strongly to the UK for cultural reasons that make our go forward relations with the large French and Indigenous communities in our country, to say nothing of the more modern vast global immigrant populations. As we attempt to move forward on the concepts of reconciliation, it seems quite anachronistic that a lawyer advocating for indigenous rights needs to also bear the title of "King's Counsel." And that's even more ramped up in many of the other commonwealth nations, that don't have a significant population that can trace its lineage back to the Monarchy's country.

Like you, I think there is a lot to be encouraged about with Charles. He won't have his mother's "quietness" but I believe he'll go much further in reducing the role of the Monarchy in British Life, and be setting that up for his own descendants to continue to take up. What that role takes in the various Commonwealth countries will be very interesting to observe.

[ShadowKnight2]

6 hours ago, Welshman in Ca said:

they were Glasgow Celtic supporters and they always supported a free Ireland & the IRA, about as anti monarchy as you could possibly get anywhere in the world and were the same when Lord Mountbatten was blown up by the IRA with their cheering and applauding the act. The Glasgow Rangers supporters would have been the polar opposite with flags of the queen and pictures around the stadium but that wouldn't have given John the narrative that he needed.

That Old Firm derby, between Rangers and Celtic is one of the ugliest derbys in soccer today. It's religious sectarianism at it's worse!

[wknt3]

I have to agree with the posters saying the show is losing something. I watched this week at my friend Chuck's house in London (lovely place, but a bit too big and the neighborhood is full of tourists) and most of it was just some fat guy going down a water slide! I mean I loved Conan and Letterman and their absurdist humor, but this is supposed to be topical humor!

[ShadowKnight2]

22 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

I have to agree with the posters saying the show is losing something. I watched this week at my friend Chuck's house in London (lovely place, but a bit too big and the neighborhood is full of tourists) and most of it was just some fat guy going down a water slide! I mean I loved Conan and Letterman and their absurdist humor, but this is supposed to be topical humor!

That's Winston Churchill sliding down a water slide to the tune of The Benny Hill Show, which I found to be very hilarious (The water slide, that is. Benny Hill's show was also very hilarious!)

[aghst]

On 11/14/2022 at 7:41 PM, swanpride said:

What, the democrats animated women and young people to vote? Oh the humanity!!!!

Oddly I yesterday watched "The Crown", hence this segment about the state of the British Monarchie came very timely. So glad that someone with cloud pokes holes in the whole "they are a good investment" nonsense. 

They have strict rules about posting in the media thread there.

But Oliver talking about tHe Kenyan atrocities perpetrated by UK officers in Elizabeth’s name is entirely germane to that show.  Doesn’t it depict Elizabeth cultivating former English colonies in Africa?

Or Charles giving the most inadequate apology to a survivor of atrocities perpetrated in Canada, another country under the Crown.

[ShadowKnight2]

22 minutes ago, aghst said:

Or Charles giving the most inadequate apology to a survivor of atrocities perpetrated in Canada, another country under the Crown.

Most of those atrocities that happened in Canada were from the Catholic church. Pope Francis spent quite a bit of time, over the summer in Canada, apologizing to its First Nations over what the church did to their children.

The British monarchy would do well to do the same thing for their role in all this, instead of the backhanded way Charles responded!

[paigow]

1 hour ago, ShadowKnight2 said:

Most of those atrocities that happened in Canada were from the Catholic church. Pope Francis spent quite a bit of time, over the summer in Canada, apologizing to its First Nations over what the church did to their children.

The British monarchy would do well to do the same thing for their role in all this, instead of the backhanded way Charles responded!

Pre-Confederation Canada was a proxy war battleground between France & England. Followed by the War of 1812 between the USA & England.

In both events, indigenous tribes were recruited / coerced / deceived  to serve in armies on both sides. The Catholic Residential School debacle extended to the 20th century.

[swanpride]

Apologies in a political setting usually don't happen because it opens you up for law suits from the victims. That is the sad truth. Even Germany, the country which has done more than any other to make up for past crimes, avoids clear apologies for that reason alone. Hence I would worry less about apologies and more about the question if the royal family has done anything to make it up to the victims (the answer is: Very little to nothing). 

Btw: I really enjoyed the "I care but I don't care" part...I felt the same. I mean, I kind of care because I know what the queen means for the Brits, who are already in a politically extremely unstable position but I don't care at the same time, because they Royals are a bunch of Rich People who somehow double as Disney Land Figures...and frankly, the Disney Land figures are more fun. 

[wknt3]

16 hours ago, swanpride said:

Royals are a bunch of Rich People who somehow double as Disney Land Figures...and frankly, the Disney Land figures are more fun. 

Except Zazu...

[Ceindreadh]

On 11/14/2022 at 5:15 AM, Jodithgrace said:

So, did they show this segment in Britain, or did you just get Winston Churchill on replay? 
 

Sigh…tomorrow I’m doing a presentation on the US Plains Indians and what happened to them…it’s the same old story. We white people have a lot to answer for, I’m afraid. 

The show did air on Sky TV and it looks like they aired it in full.  I watched the main segment on the Last Week Tonight youtube channel first just in case there was any cuts, but when I fast forwarded through the episode on my DVR, it looked like everything was there.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Ceindreadh
to get the channel correct

[Lantern7]

Winston Churchill: The Original Jackass. “Hullo, I am the Prime Minister of England, and I shall endeavor to go down this water slide. Backwards. And I would like for a saxophone to be played in a fun, jazzy manner. Is ‘jazzy’ a thing in this time period? Regardless, off I go!”” I hope he had fun.

My thoughts immediately after the election were mixed. I don’t have the optimism most liberals have. I certainly didn’t want to crack pen a beer and stare at a map of Pennsylvania all night. Watching Fox heads go nuts was funny, though.

What is more cringe: Charle trying to be “down” behind a turntable? Or John trying a Chicago accent? I’m thinking the latter. Is that the official stereotype voice? Or did John just watch a few “Superfans” sketches from SNL?

[JustHereForFood]

On the first part about elections - first of all, congratulations to everyone from the US on the results being better than what was expected (although it sure could have been better). It's especially good to see so many people reject some of those extreme anti-abortion people. And that clip about the guy complaining about the result of young people voting - yikes! What happened to the "we do it for our children" speeches? Young people clearly give you a message about what is important to them and that you offer nothing to get their vote. Maybe some retrospection?

Regarding the main topic - well, there's a lot to unpack. I am personally not a fan of monarchy in general and I think that they have no place in today's world. Although I have to acknowledge that 1 - it's a paradox that some of the most modern and progressive (IMO) countries in the World are also still monarchies (meaning mostly Scandinavian and Benelux countries, not the UK), and 2 - that it's not really my place to judge what another country decides to have as their system. I will support the citizens of UK whatever way they choose to go forward, just as I fully support all Commonwealth countries that decide to cut their ties with the monarchy. 

That being said, I have some problems with some of the stuff that not just John, but some of the most radical anti-monarchy people say. It's truly interesting that some people have the ability to make you almost side with the opposite argument than you originally held just by how they express their arguments (this has been true recently for some of the most radical climate activists for example).

First, some of the reactions to Queen's death have been truly disgusting. Whatever is your position, some dignity should be maintained when you talk about a person's death (unless it's some disgusting criminal, rapist, dictator, etc. I will not have one complaint about people who celebrate Andrew's death, I promise, I will cheer too). That clip from the football stadium was horrible, even though I have already come to the opinion that I don't expect any normal behavior from football fans, they are truly the worst. Some of the comments I've seen online were also disgusting. And I didn't feen any sadness myself, I don't find a death of 90+ person sad. It's ok to have a neutral opinion. I was quite nervous to watch the first episode of LWT after her death, because knowing how much John hates the monarchy and as it looks, the UK in general, I expected soomething like that too, to my relief he remained very civil which I liked.

Second, there is no need to make it sound like the US model is the only alternative. Most European countries also have separate head of state and government, the only difference is that the head of state is the president instead of the monarch. The level of power they have can vary from country to country but in many it's no more than what the UK monarch has, purely ceremonial stuff. We vote for them separately than for the parliament/government.

Regarding slavery and other colonial evils, it's not really my place to say how much people have a right to be pissed at current heads of countries or institutions for what their predecessors did, it's a complex topic. But I'm surprised that John singled the monarchy here, because the US did slavery while it was a sovereign country and going by his argument, people should also have the same feeling about the office of the president, or at least the governors of southern states, no? They represent the office that was in charge when slavery ran rampant. Isn't it cherry picking to be mad at the monarchy and not at these offices too? Either you feel that those people represent those before them and should appologize or not.

On that note:

On 11/14/2022 at 6:15 AM, Jodithgrace said:

Sigh…tomorrow I’m doing a presentation on the US Plains Indians and what happened to them…it’s the same old story. We white people have a lot to answer for, I’m afraid. 

Not all of us white people. My country never colonized anyone, so I will continue not to feel guilty about it, while I fully condemn those actions, thank you.

I get the issue with the monarchy is difficult and as I say, I am all in favor of disbanding it if people of the UK choose so. We should all keep civil about it, is all I'm saying. Statements like John's at the end "You don't have to hate the monarchy,..." don't help either. Don't have to hate them? Thank's John, how generous of you.

On 11/15/2022 at 11:46 AM, Tiggertoo said:

I’m getting tired of this show.  I’m disagreeing more often with the show’s take on things. And the bits meant to be funny leave me cold sometimes.  I mean, repeating ‘big board’ and ‘Steve Kornacki’ over and over just isn’t funny to me.  And when he tries to inject humour into his main stories, it still sometimes comes across as frat boy style.

Unpopular opinion, maybe.

I still agree most of the time, but unlike other shows, it seems to me like John is often presenting only the most radical alternative to the staus quo and I usually find at least one thing I disagree with him, even if I agree with the larger argument. Which is ok, I guess. I mean, we also need people to express those opinions, the problem sometimes is when it looks like they represent the whole group and people have to choose one way or the other, nothing inbetween. Which doesn't help the polarized political climate we live in now. 

So, I still continue to watch, but I prefer other people's takes, like Trevor Noah, he always manages to say the argument in a very human way and acknowledges many of the nuances and what he understands about the other side's arguments.

(A necessary acknowledgment: Yes, there are some topics that are very much black and white and all the arguments from the other side are bogus and there isn't much of a nuance. It's all complicated and the more we talk about it, the better, I think.)

[ShadowKnight2]

I've already said I'm not a fan of the monarchy. And I still stand behind my statement that it's on its last legs.

But I'm not one of those people who rubs their hands in glee whenever they fuck up with something. I'm more like "meh" on that. Those Celtic fans that were cheering and chanting her name in a rude way, during the moment of silence, are pond scum, AFAIC. And for that manner, John Oliver too, after he insinuated, a while ago, Queen Elizabeth was looking up at Princess Diana. Meaning, she's burning in Hell!

If people love or hate the monarchy, that's their business. But the old adage "Don't speak ill of the dead" definitely applies here in regard to the Queen's death. And some, like John Oliver, have already shown they're all ass and no class!

[marina to]

On 11/15/2022 at 3:37 PM, Traveller519 said:

However, in my own country I continue to see less and less practical application to the monarchy. I think it keeps us tethered a little too strongly to the UK for cultural reasons that make our go forward relations with the large French and Indigenous communities in our country, to say nothing of the more modern vast global immigrant populations. As we attempt to move forward on the concepts of reconciliation, it seems quite anachronistic that a lawyer advocating for indigenous rights needs to also bear the title of "King's Counsel." And that's even more ramped up in many of the other commonwealth nations, that don't have a significant population that can trace its lineage back to the Monarchy's country.

This is an excellent point that I hadn't considered, thank you. Both those communities have great reason to hate the British crown, although more so the Indigenous community, since the Brits reneged on their promises made in exchange for their assistance during the War of 1812, which led to the displacement of the various nations in the decades afterwards. The French overall fared better because they did get to keep their institutions, just under British leadership, before Confederation. I live in Toronto, so I see all the immigrants from all over the world and most of them have no ties, so it makes no sense for them too.

After this show, I picked up Penny Junior's Charles: Villian or Victim, which is a book written in 1998 based on interviews with people who had worked for him or were friends with him. The book portrays a very complex man, who chose to keep silent in the wake of Diana's interviews because he didn't want to distress his sons by airing dirty laundry. It also portrays a Diana who isn't the saint that she's been portrayed as but rather a person who yes, didn't get guidance as to what her role would be and whose husband did become jealous of her popularity but also carried scars from her parents' divorce and a teenager's idea of what a relationship was and as a result had a hard team dealing with being with a man who had so many demands on his time. It also paints a different timeline of the Charles/Camilla relationship, insisting he wanted to make the marriage work and it was only when it became obvious that it couldn't that Camilla came into the picture.

All of which to say that a lot of how we view him comes from the lens of one person. And now when I read what people are saying about this season of The Crown, it feels incredibly unfair. She may end up destroying the monarchy from the grave if The Crown has turned people against Charles. Which was what she wanted, I guess.

Edited November 21, 2022 by marina to

[marina to]

Well, look who is taking a look at the British Monarchy's role in slavery.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/06/king-charles-signals-first-explicit-support-for-research-into-monarchys-slavery-ties

[andromeda331]

On 4/9/2023 at 5:50 PM, marina to said:

Well, look who is taking a look at the British Monarchy's role in slavery.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/06/king-charles-signals-first-explicit-support-for-research-into-monarchys-slavery-ties

Try history books Charles.