S05.E09: Allegiance

[aghst]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

I gather most of what happens after season 3 or so is well beyond the events of the book?

18 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Most of what happens after season 1.

Yikes!

[PsychoDrone]

Yes, the show has gone way beyond the original story line of the books.  I didn't read the original book, but it is real obvious that the writers ran out of material and are making it up as they go along.  There is no real sense how Gilead's government works.  How many commanders are there?  Is there a head commander, like the Pope?  How are decisions made?  The show focuses on one area/city, but what about the rest of the continental US?  We, as viewers, know about the border/no-mans land, the colonies, and Boston.  Also, rebels fighting.  That's it.  No world building, but that is because the writers have no idea how Gilead works.  What is Gilead's standing in the world?  There are hints, but nothing definite.  This episode we find out that repressive regimes, like North Korea and China, applaud them.  Wow, what an endorsement!  With what we know, Gilead should have collapsed a long time ago.  No idea how it sustains itself.

[Andyourlittledog2]

2 hours ago, aghst said:

I gather most of what happens after season 3 or so is well beyond the events of the book?

Yeah, they've been inventing stuff for quite a while now. 

And why does Hannah have a pencil in her sleeping pod?  And why are the showrunners/writers trying to make it seem like Hannah and June have some mystical connection through the sky? They both keep looking up at the sky when thinking of the other and it's starting to irritate the hell outta me.

I guess Elizabeth Moss must be a great actress because she is really selling June as someone who is batshit crazy, selfish in an obsessive must have her own way kinda way and doesn't care who gets killed in pursuit of her mission etc. And I really really hate her. Which I don't think I would if EM wasn't doing her job. This mission to save Hannah at all costs no matter who gets hurt/killed and pretty much ignoring her other daughter in the process just leaves me cold.  It's not that I don't understand her passion to save her kid. I do. It's that she treats absolutely everyone else in the world as just disposable cogs in her machine to do so.  She really doesn't give a shit. 

And all she has to do is glare at important people and they bend to her will. She is included in the knowledge of the mission, she is introduced to the leader of the mission, she is allowed to be in the control room during the mission.... It's just ridiculous story writing IMO. 

[greekmom]

7 minutes ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

I guess Elizabeth Moss must be a great actress because she is really selling June as someone who is batshit crazy, selfish in an obsessive must have her own way kinda way and doesn't care who gets killed in pursuit of her mission etc. And I really really hate her. Which I don't think I would if EM wasn't doing her job. This mission to save Hannah at all costs no matter who gets hurt/killed and pretty much ignoring her other daughter in the process just leaves me cold.  It's not that I don't understand her passion to save her kid. I do. It's that she treats absolutely everyone else in the world as just disposable cogs in her machine to do so.  She really doesn't give a shit. 

They needed June to be pro America as she had the counter offer to go to New Bethlehem. So that's why the Americans went to get Hannah. As I said before I feel if Gilead just gave June Hannah they wouldn't be bothered by her again. But Gilead does Gilead.

[Trillian]

On 11/2/2022 at 3:10 PM, Helena Dax said:

I'm glad Serena was able to run away. The situation with the Wheelers was bizarre and although I'm no expert in Canadian law, I'm pretty sure that their actions were illegal.

I can assure you that assault, kidnapping, forcible confinement and slavery are all illegal in Canada.  I can’t wrap my mind around this show’s (sorry excuse for a) universe where this all happens in Canada and Serena has no recourse. 

23 hours ago, SourK said:

Also, I think it's unkind for people to picket while the Americans are trying to hold a memorial service (why they did it there instead of at the embassy or something IDK), but a scene where a little girl learns to say the pledge of allegiance while looking at a photo of a brave soldier who died... kind of made me want the Americans to go home?

[small voice] I felt the same way. I get that this show, while based on a work by a Canadian author, filmed in Canada and now with most scenes based in Canada, must appeal for commercial reasons to the numerically larger American audience, but that was too much for me. The show has what’s left of the US gov’t conducting military operations from Canadian soil as if Canada is not a sovereign nation and as if they, the Americans, are in charge. They risk retaliation by Gilead on Canada but no one seems to notice.  Watching the soi-disant refugees publicly pledging allegiance to a foreign government made me both slightly ill and angry. 

[HMFan]

On 11/2/2022 at 3:10 PM, Helena Dax said:

I'm glad Serena was able to run away. The situation with the Wheelers was bizarre and although I'm no expert in Canadian law, I'm pretty sure that their actions were illegal.

To me, this thing between Naomi and Lawrence makes zero sense from his pov. She's officially barren, which means they would be assigned a Handmaid. Lawrence wouldn't want that, and I doubt he could just pretend with Naomi there. Also, he had her husband killed, which is all kinds of twisted. I mean, I doubt she loved him, but still. I agree that everything seems to indicate that he'll kick the bucket in the finale, which is sad because right now I find him more interesting than June, Luke, Nick, Tuello and the ghost of Moira.

I wonder what's going on with Rose. One of the Wives seemed to imply that there was something wrong with her genetics.

She has some genetic deformity in her leg. Her father, a high commander had been protecting her so they wouldn't send her to the colonies.  Nick married her to gain favor with her father, but obviously feels obligated to protect her and apparently believes she's happy in Gilead. Although it will be interesting to see how/if that changes now that she has realized that if her baby comes out with a genetic defect, she may have no way to protect him/her.

[circumvent]

32 minutes ago, HMFan said:

Although it will be interesting to see how/if that changes now that she has realized that if her baby comes out with a genetic defect, she may have no way to protect him/her.

Book Gilead was eugenicist, which would get the baby killed as soon as it is born. Show Gilead might just ignore that in the same way they ignored white supremacy

[aghst]

Why would Rose be sent to the Colonies?

She's the wife of a commander and the daughter of another commander.

If she can't deliver a healthy boy, they would be expected to take a Handmaid.  If she refused, she might be sent off.

But privilege has to count for something right?  Serena got in trouble for trying to read or some other made up BS.

Why does any woman with half a clue want to stay in Gilead?

[PsychoDrone]

9 minutes ago, aghst said:

Why does any woman with half a clue want to stay in Gilead?

My wife and I wonder the same thing.  Earlier season, Fred said, "Privileges would only apply to a few." or something like that.  Privileges would really only apply to white males.  Although, show Gilead is more 'politically correct' and has minority commanders and handmaids.  Show should have went all in and stuck with the white supremacy angle.  No way I buy that minorities would be commanders and handmaids.

Back to women, yes, the female population should be significantly reduced in Gilead.  Even the commander's wives should be defecting in large numbers once they experienced the repression of Gilead.  Many of the wives, aunts, and Marthas are educated women.  Marthas would have a hard time, but wives and aunts should be leaving their posts.  Canada is similar to the US, and lots of those women would be able to resume the careers/lives they had pre-Gilead.  I mean, what does Gilead do for entertainment/leisure?  I'm betting a better life could be had in any of the other western countries.

Finally, what about the Gilead sympathizers in Canada?  Pretty sure, Gilead wouldn't object to people, especially women, wanting to move there.  So, why don't they immigrate to Gilead?  What is stopping them?  In current times, you hear about some crazy person wanting to join the Taliban or other designated country.  But, we don't see or hear women praising places like Iraq or Saudi Arabia.  If we did, people would tell them to move there.  The world knows how Gilead works.  If they TRULY believed in it, then they should move there.  Show should address this.

[chaifan]

15 hours ago, tpwilder said:

16 hours ago, Trillian said:

I can assure you that assault, kidnapping, forcible confinement and slavery are all illegal in Canada.  I can’t wrap my mind around this show’s (sorry excuse for a) universe where this all happens in Canada and Serena has no recourse. 

 I think that Serena would actually need to go to the police and make these claims for something to be done. Why she didn't when she was in the hospital really needs to be explained. 

I think the simple explanation is that Serena was a willing member of the Wheeler household.  Especially pre-birth.  It wasn't her first choice, and she hated it there, but she was there of her own will, technically speaking.  She wasn't kidnapped.  It was obviously also her choice to return after she was released from the detention center.  Again, not much of a choice to be had there, but she went there willingly.  She was actively dissuaded from leaving, but never physically prevented from doing so (because as far as we saw, she never actually tried).  Now, the two slaps from Mrs. Wheeler would constitute assault, but no prosecutor would take on something as minor as that. 

Rose:  I'm just assuming that her leg deformity wasn't obvious as a newborn, maybe not until she was starting to learn how to crawl or walk.  So she wouldn't have been a "shredder" baby, even if she wasn't the child of a Commander.   I don't know how the book originally dealt with later in life disabilities.  And given Gilead's distaste for most of modern medicine, I don't know how they would know any deformity was "genetic", unless it was obvious - family members on one side all had the same trait.  It would be an interesting plot, though, for her baby to be born with an obvious disability, and that is what causes Nick to take Tuello up on his offer - to get Rose & baby immunity in Canada.  Though I guess that would be acceptable in New Bethlehem, too... 

20 minutes ago, PsychoDrone said:

Back to women, yes, the female population should be significantly reduced in Gilead.  Even the commander's wives should be defecting in large numbers once they experienced the repression of Gilead.  Many of the wives, aunts, and Marthas are educated women.  Marthas would have a hard time, but wives and aunts should be leaving their posts. 

And this is another reason that I think the whole line about Gilead having more babies than the rest of the world is statistically impossible.  They've significantly reduced their number of child bearing women, through sending women to the Colonies, making some Marthas and Aunts, and those that have willingly left.   But, I think it would be very hard for current Wives, Aunts and Marthas to defect.  Just like the Handmaids, they're under pretty strict watch.  Econowives, though, may have an easier time slipping away, if they knew how to, and had the means to get to the border.

[circumvent]

2 hours ago, PsychoDrone said:

Back to women, yes, the female population should be significantly reduced in Gilead.  Even the commander's wives should be defecting in large numbers once they experienced the repression of Gilead.  Many of the wives, aunts, and Marthas are educated women.  Marthas would have a hard time, but wives and aunts should be leaving their posts.  Canada is similar to the US, and lots of those women would be able to resume the careers/lives they had pre-Gilead.  I mean, what does Gilead do for entertainment/leisure?  I'm betting a better life could be had in any of the other western countries.

And that's part of the tangle of BS the writers delivered. They drifted so far away from the book, not much makes sense. In the book, Gilead lasted for a long time, so early on they had to be closed up to the rest of the world and that's why they had to ration, didn't have much electricity available, they had to make all residents prisoners. Then they started to condition the younger generations to accept and later embrace that "way of life". Gilead didn't start as a cult, where people join seeking for something. They overthrew a government, it was violent. There is no analogy in the real world, it is much more extreme than what we believe some authoritarian regimes are in real life.

The show made it all happen in about 7 years, the "revolution", then opening up, having diplomatic relations with the rest of the world. Like you said, the women who were forced into that life would have rebelled in much large numbers than a few from Mayday once Gilead started having phone calls with Canada, having an American going back and forth, having parties and an attache in Canada. It is ridiculous, because they crammed what was supposed to be a century or more into a few years

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

Rose:  I'm just assuming that her leg deformity wasn't obvious as a newborn, maybe not until she was starting to learn how to crawl or walk.  So she wouldn't have been a "shredder" baby, even if she wasn't the child of a Commander.

But she wasn't a baby when Gilead was formed so she was "saved" because she had the privilege. In Nazi Germany, there were Nazis officers who were able to keep their disabled children for a while - the cases I heard about ended up with the officers forced to give them to the state that murdered them. A "master race" cannot have "defective" people, and all must work and not be simply "useless eaters". The book doesn't dwell on it. I don't remember a mention of disabilities, if there is was more implied than spelled out

[chaifan]

2 hours ago, circumvent said:

But she wasn't a baby when Gilead was formed so she was "saved" because she had the privilege.

Oh, good catch.  Yes, you're right.  Rose would have been born pre-Gilead, so no risk of being a "shredder" baby at that time. 

I know half the time I'm "watching" tv, I'm doing other things, so I miss a lot of visual things.  I don't think I've ever noticed Rose's deformity - is it obvious?  I don't remember her using a cane or other assist, does she?

[SourK]

5 hours ago, PsychoDrone said:

Finally, what about the Gilead sympathizers in Canada?  Pretty sure, Gilead wouldn't object to people, especially women, wanting to move there.  So, why don't they immigrate to Gilead?  What is stopping them?  In current times, you hear about some crazy person wanting to join the Taliban or other designated country.  But, we don't see or hear women praising places like Iraq or Saudi Arabia.  If we did, people would tell them to move there.  The world knows how Gilead works.  If they TRULY believed in it, then they should move there.  Show should address this.

Maybe the pro-Gilead Canadians will move to New Bethlahem. Someone's got to -- they've built it up too much for no one to go there.

[Trillian]

6 hours ago, chaifan said:

I think the simple explanation is that Serena was a willing member of the Wheeler household.  Especially pre-birth.  It wasn't her first choice, and she hated it there, but she was there of her own will, technically speaking.  She wasn't kidnapped.  It was obviously also her choice to return after she was released from the detention center.  Again, not much of a choice to be had there, but she went there willingly.  She was actively dissuaded from leaving, but never physically prevented from doing so (because as far as we saw, she never actually tried).  Now, the two slaps from Mrs. Wheeler would constitute assault, but no prosecutor would take on something as minor as that. 

22 hours ago, tpwilder said:

I think that Serena would actually need to go to the police and make these claims for something to be done. Why she didn't when she was in the hospital really needs to be explained. 

None of it makes any sense. Earlier seasons showed women crossing the border to be embraced immediately by the support and protection of Canadian authorities.   Now, June and Serena rush to cross the (now mushy due to “no man’s land”) border and get to Toronto. What happens?  No Canadian official or child welfare worker is involved, but a representative of a foreign government arranges for her to be released (from whom, exactly?) to live in servitude to the Wheelers.  Who appear to be Canadians living in Canada. She told June she needed a lawyer but she doesn’t. “Hello, Toronto Police?  These people have my baby and won’t give him  back to me”.  It should be a no-brainer.  In Canada, it’s her baby, not Gilead’s or Tuello’s. 
Similarly, while I don’t want to get into a debate about the Canadian criminal Justice system (although, frankly, I am qualified to do so and would welcome it by DM), holding someone’s baby hostage to intimidate the person into compliance - including not leaving the house at will - is an offence. Multiple offences. And I have seen people prosecuted for less than a couple of slaps. So all this board talk of escaping and going to Tuello or Lawrence doesn’t work for me.   They should have no authority north of the border.  If Serena doesn’t want to ask for help, explain it, please, show. If Gilead law now rules in Canada (or is it just Toronto?), explain it, please, show. Otherwise, this is just horrible, lazy writing. 
 

[ww92]

On 11/3/2022 at 5:23 PM, Andyourlittledog2 said:

Yeah, they've been inventing stuff for quite a while now. 

And why does Hannah have a pencil in her sleeping pod?  And why are the showrunners/writers trying to make it seem like Hannah and June have some mystical connection through the sky? They both keep looking up at the sky when thinking of the other and it's starting to irritate the hell outta me.

I guess Elizabeth Moss must be a great actress because she is really selling June as someone who is batshit crazy, selfish in an obsessive must have her own way kinda way and doesn't care who gets killed in pursuit of her mission etc. And I really really hate her. Which I don't think I would if EM wasn't doing her job. This mission to save Hannah at all costs no matter who gets hurt/killed and pretty much ignoring her other daughter in the process just leaves me cold.  It's not that I don't understand her passion to save her kid. I do. It's that she treats absolutely everyone else in the world as just disposable cogs in her machine to do so.  She really doesn't give a shit. 

And all she has to do is glare at important people and they bend to her will. She is included in the knowledge of the mission, she is introduced to the leader of the mission, she is allowed to be in the control room during the mission.... It's just ridiculous story writing IMO. 

Yeah, I'd find it more believable if Hannah was shown as being normal and happy (because Gilead and that life is all she really knows) but got little flashes of June and Luke and her life before Gilead took her. She must  have some vague memories of being snatched from her parents and being petrified. And I thought the same thing about June and Nicole. I know that June figures Nicole is safe and in good hands with Rita and Moira whereas Hannah is not but she never seems to have any struggles with leaving her at the  drop of a hat.

And it's totally ridiculous that June and Luke were in the control room during the raid. There is no way an agent would disclose top secret information to anyone who didn't have clearance and no way he'd tell any of the families anything about the raid ahead of time. Yet no one in that control room batted an eye that June and Luke were there, literally standing in front of them. I kept waiting for one of the workers to say "Um, excuse me. Can you move, I can't see the screen."

[TV Anonymous]

So the U.S. Navy staged the assault in an airport or airbase in or around Toronto? I thought Canada was neutral in this United States - Gilead conflict? Otherwise, Canada would be a belligerent party to Gilead and all Gileadians in Canada would be considered hostile. Since Gileadians could enter Canada, and Gilead could establish a mission in Toronto, they were at peace with Canada.

Who was Mark Tuello? He claimed to be an agent for the United States government, but he apparently had command authority to a military mission?

Who were the Wheelers? Since they did not answer to Gildean Commanders, were they Canadians? If they were not Giledians with diplomatic immunity in Canada, how did they do their Giledian lifestyle in Canadian soil? That was also including building a private army in Canada.

And BTW, Commander Lawrence directed this episode? Good job nevertheless.

[circumvent]

Great insights in the posts above and now I wish I had a chance to ask the writers why they turn the story of Gilead in the book - decades, maybe more than a century rule - to a "two-term" autocratic country. The way they portray what happens in Gilead, and how the rest of the world relates to it is no more no less than what happens all over the world, with countries invading countries, countries financing coups in other countries, an bad election result, many bad election results, or a combination of one or more of those factors. Gilead is supposed to be so extreme, it is something nobody has aver seen or thought possible. That's why, in the book, there was so much interest in the tale told by a handmaid. 

The American refugees, the escapees, former handmaids would not have such a huge crowd of haters. Some people lack empathy but there wasn't enough time, in the show, for such hysteria. The whole thing is so contrived, that's why I hate this show so much. I loved the book, it was an original story (turned out to be prophetic in a way) and with the usual masterful Atwood writing. Look at what it became.  I am only watching it because I want to see how they will transition to the new show

[crashdown]

5 hours ago, circumvent said:

Great insights in the posts above and now I wish I had a chance to ask the writers why they turn the story of Gilead in the book - decades, maybe more than a century rule - to a "two-term" autocratic country.

If they're going to stick with the premise of the Handmaid as someone who was there at the beginning of Gilead, they're going to have to tell the story of Gilead in a relatively few number of years. I suppose it would have been possible to have Gilead have existed for decades before June was somehow snatched into it, but it wouldn't be the same story. It's a lot more powerful to have a narrator who remembers Before very clearly. The worldbuidling of Gilead in the show is ridiculous, of course, but I don't think they could have changed the timeframe of the story.

[PsychoDrone]

17 hours ago, Trillian said:

None of it makes any sense. Earlier seasons showed women crossing the border to be embraced immediately by the support and protection of Canadian authorities.   Now, June and Serena rush to cross the (now mushy due to “no man’s land”) border and get to Toronto. What happens?  No Canadian official or child welfare worker is involved, but a representative of a foreign government arranges for her to be released (from whom, exactly?) to live in servitude to the Wheelers.  Who appear to be Canadians living in Canada. She told June she needed a lawyer but she doesn’t. “Hello, Toronto Police?  These people have my baby and won’t give him  back to me”.  It should be a no-brainer.  In Canada, it’s her baby, not Gilead’s or Tuello’s. 
Similarly, while I don’t want to get into a debate about the Canadian criminal Justice system (although, frankly, I am qualified to do so and would welcome it by DM), holding someone’s baby hostage to intimidate the person into compliance - including not leaving the house at will - is an offence. Multiple offences. And I have seen people prosecuted for less than a couple of slaps. So all this board talk of escaping and going to Tuello or Lawrence doesn’t work for me.   They should have no authority north of the border.  If Serena doesn’t want to ask for help, explain it, please, show. If Gilead law now rules in Canada (or is it just Toronto?), explain it, please, show. Otherwise, this is just horrible, lazy writing. 
 

Watching a show, it is only natural to suspend disbelief.  But, in that suspension things have to make sense.  In the DCEU and MCU, we all know there aren't any superheroes in real life, but even the things they do have to make sense with our real world expectations.  The legalities of the events happening with Serena and the Wheelers makes no sense because the writers have not truly defined the Wheeler's status.  Are they Canadians, Gileadeans (if that is what a person from Gilead is called), or what?  Why would Wheeler be able to do what he is doing in No Man's Land with impunity?  Why would Mrs Wheeler have ANY say in how the baby is raised when the mother is right there?  Serena hasn't been ruled unfit.  And, I doubt she would be ruled unfit considering the events she had to endure.  Any family lawyer would paint her as a saint doing what is necessary to protect her child.  Which would carry even more weight, due to how HARD it is for women to reproduce in this universe.  Serena would follow June's example and give an impassioned speech about her treatment in the Wheeler home and that would be it.  I hate that I'm advocating for Serena, but right is right.

The writers are hacks.  They were given an interesting premise and, once the original story was exhausted, their true abilities have been shown as lacking.  I'm watching it, but it is just sad that it isn't any better.

Edited November 5, 2022 by PsychoDrone

[chocolatine]

7 hours ago, circumvent said:

Great insights in the posts above and now I wish I had a chance to ask the writers why they turn the story of Gilead in the book - decades, maybe more than a century rule - to a "two-term" autocratic country.

That would require several time jumps, aging up the main characters, then having them die because they can't plausibly live that long. It could have been done if the show wanted to tell that story (that's what The Crown is doing, more or less), but they instead chose to focus on June's quest to get Hannah back, which requires most of the events to unfold in real time.

1 hour ago, crashdown said:

I suppose it would have been possible to have Gilead have existed for decades before June was somehow snatched into it, but it wouldn't be the same story. It's a lot more powerful to have a narrator who remembers Before very clearly.

Yes, the premise of the book is that June had a normal life before Gilead - she was able to have the career that she wanted, practice the faith that she wanted, marry whom she wanted, raise her child the way she wanted - before it was taken away from her. The book's real time events only span a few months. It's the aftermath described in the epilogue that took over a century to unfold.

[circumvent]

2 hours ago, crashdown said:

If they're going to stick with the premise of the Handmaid as someone who was there at the beginning of Gilead, they're going to have to tell the story of Gilead in a relatively few number of years. I suppose it would have been possible to have Gilead have existed for decades before June was somehow snatched into it, but it wouldn't be the same story. It's a lot more powerful to have a narrator who remembers Before very clearly. The worldbuidling of Gilead in the show is ridiculous, of course, but I don't think they could have changed the timeframe of the story.

54 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

That would require several time jumps, aging up the main characters, then having them die because they can't plausibly live that long. It could have been done if the show wanted to tell that story (that's what The Crown is doing, more or less), but they instead chose to focus on June's quest to get Hannah back, which requires most of the events to unfold in real time.

While I get what you both are saying, that's not my argument, or rather, you are just emphasizing my argument: that they diverted too much from the book, making most/all that happened after the first season contradictory with the story they were telling, BECAUSE they decided to tell the story from beginning to end (of Gilead, with the same characters). If that is the main line they wanted to follow, they could have done an introduction to Gilead as a montage of a revolution-type event, then having the whole new autocracy isolated from the word, all this with other actors. They they could get into June's story, when she and her family are somehow captured and kidnapped to Gilead - not as part of a whole event with lots of other women and children, but for other reasons. In this scenario, the place was already established, suffering from the shortages and ration, which would lead them to try to be more diplomatic at some point. Most "original" women captured from the former US would be banished, or old, or dead, the newer generation would be illiterate. Then comes June and becomes the hero they've always wanted her to be. I would swallow that story better, not hate the show so much. 

No need for time jump, just something that preserves the intent of the book - Gilead as an isolated, yet ideologically powerful, beating the odds for a long time as they don't have much material resources but not waving on the fundamentalism. The way it is, like I said,  puts it too close to many regimes around the real world, where they abuse and oppress, but are just another country that have a seat in the UN. While terrible for its residents, it does not justify the cooperation, in some levels, with the rest of the world. That's not what the book is about. Once more, the book is a master piece, they butchered it with nonsense, lack of continuity and deep, deep holes.

[crashdown]

1 hour ago, circumvent said:

While I get what you both are saying, that's not my argument, or rather, you are just emphasizing my argument: that they diverted too much from the book, making most/all that happened after the first season contradictory with the story they were telling, BECAUSE they decided to tell the story from beginning to end (of Gilead, with the same characters).

There's no real indication that they're intending to tell the story of the end of Gilead in THT--that won't come until The Testaments, and it will have largely different characters and be 15 or so years in the future. 

1 hour ago, circumvent said:

They they could get into June's story, when she and her family are somehow captured and kidnapped to Gilead - not as part of a whole event with lots of other women and children, but for other reasons. In this scenario, the place was already established, suffering from the shortages and ration, which would lead them to try to be more diplomatic at some point. Most "original" women captured from the former US would be banished, or old, or dead, the newer generation would be illiterate. Then comes June and becomes the hero they've always wanted her to be. I would swallow that story better, not hate the show so much. 

That would be far from the book, and it would be less interesting (to me, at least). I think part of what makes the original Handmaid's Tale story so compelling is June's original innocence and happiness in her life, before it came crashing down around her. If she had grown up in a world in which Gilead had already existed, we couldn't have any of that. I think it's fine to tell the story of the first 5-10 years of Gilead, but the writers should have done a better job of researching world politics and international relations to figure out how to be a little bit more realistic with what the rise of a new autocracy would mean.

As far as June's being the "hero they've always wanted her to be"--that's up for debate. I'm not sure how much June is intended to be a hero; at most, she's depicted as a reluctant hero. Whatever she's done, she's done for essentially personal reasons, rather than to advance the cause of the downfall of Gilead. (A big example is killing Fred, which was done entirely for her own revenge. Yes, she managed to swing a trade for the 22 resistance women, but she would have wanted to kill Fred regardless of that. There's no doubt in my mind that keeping Fred alive and pumping him for Gilead intel would have been better for the cause than killing him was, but that wasn't relevant to June.) Right now, June doesn't want to be a resistance leader: she wants to find Hannah and live a life in peace knowing that her two children are safe. That won't work out for her--she'll have to join the resistance eventually--but it's not because she's clearly destined for heroism.

[circumvent]

47 minutes ago, crashdown said:

There's no real indication that they're intending to tell the story of the end of Gilead in THT--that won't come until The Testaments, and it will have largely different characters and be 15 or so years in the future. 

I didn't mean end of Gilead, I meant to a point where the place is acceptable in the world order. I should have been more specific. With The Testaments they can do whatever they want since Atwood herself muddled the waters of her very brilliant initial idea and wrote a low quality sequel. They can end Gilead or suggest it continues. In any case, 7, 15 , 30 years is still a fraction of what the book suggests

50 minutes ago, crashdown said:

That would be far from the book

That's true but just far in a different direction they took with their scripts. I am not a script writer, it was just a top-of-my-head collection of ideas that they could use to justify the why Gilead has diplomatic relations with the whole world, when the book paints them as such an aberration to the world order. It is just my way of saying that what I liked in the book was the premise of a reality that was so dystopic, it was unimaginable. The show makes it pretty normal, I don't like their vision. I could point out several contradictions from the first season to the ones following, because they shortened the time of the rise of Gilead, with how it became what it is on this season. I won't though, I guess I have said how I see things.

I do think they paint June as a hero, or Super!June! - less so in this last season. But this only my view, others might see her differently. 

[Kel Varnsen]

On 11/2/2022 at 3:10 PM, Helena Dax said:

I'm glad Serena was able to run away. The situation with the Wheelers was bizarre and although I'm no expert in Canadian law, I'm pretty sure that their actions were illegal.

I am not sure how strong they are but Canada does have anti-hate laws and laws against supporting terrorist organizations. You can't send money to the Taliban or host a Taliban fundraiser without breaking laws. Serena knows that the Wheelers are supporting Gilead and coordinating pro-Gilead operations in no man's land from Toronto. It would seem like if the Blue Haired woman dropped Serena off at the nearest RCMP detachment, she would have a lot of information that would interest them. And she wouldn't even need to involve stupid Tuello.

On 11/3/2022 at 1:21 AM, aghst said:

I don't buy that the American govt. in exile nor Gilead have advanced military equipment.  Like that situation room where they have a satellite view of the wife school.

The US still controls Hawaii right which means Pearl Harbour and a bunch of.the Pacific fleet. Not sure if there are bases in Alaska but Hawaii alone should give them the ability to launch missions. I also used to live on the west coast of Canada near the base of our pacific fleet. I remember a few times one of those big aircraft carriers would come in and there would be more sailors on that ship than stationed on the entire Canadian base.

On 11/4/2022 at 11:31 AM, PsychoDrone said:

Show should have went all in and stuck with the white supremacy angle.  No way I buy that minorities would be commanders and handmaids.

Except there is no way I could buy that Gilead could over throw the US government, and beat them in a war if they were full blown white supremacists. It's hard enough to believe that they have support when they are against women, LGBTQ people, Catholics, and anyone who is against their brand of fascism. If they were also against anyone in the US who is not white how would they win. I found an article that said that in 2015 the US military was about 40% ethnic or racial minorities. I don't think Gilead could win a war without at least some of those people on their side.

[Kymberlie Grace]

On 11/2/2022 at 5:09 AM, HMFan said:

OMG.  I so called it with Lawrence hooking up with Putnam.  Putnam never said yes, but Lawrence implied she did.

When Serena was that close to the door, I was like, Serena, run because you may never know when you will get the chance again. That maid knew all she needed to do was give Serena the option. The maid is certainly seeing a glimpse into what Gilead is and how it will jeopardize her personal liberties.

Mr. Wheeler as well with Serena at the Gilead fertility center interactions.  He appeared shocked, bewildered and disgusted by his wife's attempts to control Serena and her baby.

Perhaps Tuello will now sponsor her - or June now that it has become clear that they need someone who can travel back and forth and be a dual agent since Nick isn't obviously on board.

However, Nick's wife Rose, was also directly insulted in this episode, and she's probably now worrying about what will happen to her child under Gilead which is the main reason Nick can't leave -- he wants to be happy and safe.

Ever notice how Mr. Wheeler's mannerisms seem very similar to that of Lawrence?  It's like Wheeler is the Lawrence of Canada.

How was Rose insulted ? Did I miss that part ?

[Quilt Fairy]

I don't think Rose's infirmity (whatever it is) would have put her in any jeopardy, especially if she has a healthy baby.  Gilead was not interested in creating a pure, "master race."  The issues that brought Gilead to power were general infertility and babies with gross and un-survivable deformities, things like two heads.  

[circumvent]

3 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I don't think Rose's infirmity (whatever it is) would have put her in any jeopardy, especially if she has a healthy baby.  Gilead was not interested in creating a pure, "master race."  The issues that brought Gilead to power were general infertility and babies with gross and un-survivable deformities, things like two heads.  

Gilead was ruled by white supremacy in the book

Edited November 6, 2022 by circumvent

[Haleth]

Everything that June was involved in in this episode was absurd - the military operation, her witnessing said operation, meeting Nick, the memorial scene... It was all badly written.  After watching last night I thought I wouldn't bother coming back for the finale (but I'm sure I will) or get hooked into watching next season (but I'm sure I will).  It just made me angry how dopey the plot has become.  None of it makes any sense.

[jenn31]

The body count grows. Hail, Mighty June!

On 11/3/2022 at 6:23 PM, Andyourlittledog2 said:

And why are the showrunners/writers trying to make it seem like Hannah and June have some mystical connection through the sky? They both keep looking up at the sky when thinking of the other

So they can get in more closeup face shots. Because we don’t have enough of those. 

On 11/5/2022 at 4:24 PM, circumvent said:

I do think they paint June as a hero, or Super!June!

Yep. Now that the handmaid head wings are gone, next season they will be substituted with a flowing white cape. I can’t wait to see her fly! 

[steph369]

47 minutes ago, jenn31 said:

Now that the handmaid head wings are gone, next season they will be substituted with a flowing white cape. I can’t wait to see her fly! 

I wonder where she’ll change into her costume. Phone booths are rare these days. 

[Anela]

I can't remember who asked, but I think the flag and the pledge were prominent, because the extremists already took over, and don't call themselves Americans. The people trying to help, are still US territories. 

[MBayGal]

On 11/4/2022 at 3:39 PM, Trillian said:

I don’t want to get into a debate about the Canadian criminal Justice system (although, frankly, I am qualified to do so and would welcome it by DM),

Well now I have learned something useful--that you can DM people here. Cool!!!

[TigerLily20]

I just realized that Mr. Wheeler is Jimmy Chance from Raising Hope.....he plays creepy well......

[Dobian]

In tonight's episode of Special Forces: Operation Handmaid, General Osborne sends her spec ops team on a daring rescue mission behind enemy lines, only to be foiled by Gilead's mobile anti-aircraft system!

[Tyro49]

I don't think that Gilead lasts for a very long period of time. I've read The Testaments, and Aunt Lydia is very much alive and active during 99% of the book. Now I know she is a formidable lady, but she's not immortal! She does die, eventually, and at that point Gilead is beginning to crumble, with widespread leakage of secret files, actions, and events, both outside and inside Gilead. At the very end we are informed that certain characters we are familiar with lived long and happy lives after the fact. I don't know if the United States is ever actually restored, but certainly something much better than Gilead was replaces Gilead.