S01.E09: The Green Council

[Meredith Quill]

21 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

What I'm saying is that we don't know if the Faith of the Seven is going to frown on sex-adjacent activities, or whether it could be justified in Ali's mind as a necessary evil.

I think it's fairly safe to say that given the sexism of Westeros, there would be a social double standard as to it being fine if Viserys was screwing Larys (let alone just letting him jack off to Viserys's feet) even if socially it would be unacceptable for Larys to be jacking off to Ali's. 

But the one is not necessarily related to the other.

Oh sexism is definitely at work in Westeros 100% otherwise Rhaenys would have been queen. As are double standards, as pointed out by young Rhaenrya to her father regarding her own activities.

I'm not talking about a religious standpoint, I'm talking about whether a husband would be okay with his wife allowing another man, who has become so aroused by her, to jerk off in her presence. It's as simple as that. If we believe the answer is no, no he would not, but it happens regardless - then that's a fidelity problem regardless of her religious viewpoint. And if that husband happens to be the king, or a lord - I doubt religious arguments would save her head being separated from her neck.

Furthermore, I cannot conceive of a situation where Alicent had the following thought process to justify her behaviour:

A: "Larys wants to trade sexual favours for information and doing dirty work for me. Hmm, would Viserys understand that it's simply a means to an end and it's not actually cheating per se as our faith sees it? Yeah, he totally would be okay with me essentially prostituting myself out like that."

Like I said; fidelity matters to such folks because it goes hand in glove with trustworthiness. In a place/time where dna tests don't exist, the only way a man could have any certainty that his children were actually his, was knowing his wife was faithful and trustworthy. A wife has the ability to fool a husband in that manner, the same is not true in reverse. That's why complete trust and faithfulness was/is paramount.

[Scaeva]

3 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I know I shouldn't be criticizing actors whose job includes always defending writers' choices even if they think said choices are nonsensical but what revenge? Exactly what have Alicent and company done to Rhaenys personally and she only very recently kind of, sort of, joined Rhaenyra's party. Why is she having a strong desire for revenge against these people? If anything, she should want to punish Rhaenyra and Daemon because she thinks they killed her son.

Rhaenys' also already had a whole lot of blood on her hands from the smallfolk her dragon trampled, so she wasn't choosing to be gentle or magnanimous at all. Eve Best is fantastic in the role, but she's wrong about her character here. Every one involved in the production of this show keeps talking about how heroic or merciful the character was in that scene and it's absolutely baffling, considering the character quite literally killed innocent people in that scene. If the intent was for Rhaeyns to be an honorable character having her kill a bunch of civilians before she makes her dramatic exit was certainly an interesting choice.

I do like the explanation given earlier in the thread about Rhaenys sparing the Greens because she needed an exit, and the guards were closing the door until Otto shouted for them to open it. Though that leaves me wondering why doors are so much to get through than ceilings, since that would then be twice that Rhaenys found closed doors to be be an impenetrable barrier for her dragon, despite that dragon being capable of bashing through the stone flooring of the keep. Still my least favorite scene of this series but at least with that explanation Rhaenys' "mercy" (after killing a bunch of people that her actor & the showrunners seem to have forgotten about) makes some sense.

48 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

So genetics in the show/world is so interesting, or should I say plot driven. Even Aegon's bastards have the white blonde hair, all of Alicent's children have Targaryen features but Rhaenyra's is three sons with a non-Targ/Valaryan has Strong features...

The seed is Strong.

[paigow]

21 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Laenor's dragon? If Sea Smoke didn't follow Laenor to Essos

Qarl: What part of blending in is hard to understand? You are dead... but this fucking dragon follows us everywhere...

[Scaeva]

5 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Apologies for coming here late and not having time to read all of the comments already posted.

But leave it to Ned Gowan and Dougal MacKenzie to be the only ones to know and speak the truth!  Will Dougal, I mean Lord Commander of the King's Guard Ser Westerling, now join Team Black?   

I wondered what Raenys was waiting for, but I didn't realize that they were having the coronation ceremony over the dragon pit?  No wonder it didn't take her long after she finally made her move to leave.  But they all should have been toast.

Is Heleana not autistic?  She may not like human touch in general.

It does seem as if Helaena is being potrayed as autistic, but in addition to that she also seems to have inherited the Targaryen "gift" for prophecy. More than one of her socially awkward proclamations have come to pass in some form, the latest being "beware the beast beneath the boards." It is possible that gift of foresight revealed something about her mother.

Or that she is holding a grudge at being married off by her mother to her drunken wastrel of a brother, who evidently treats her no better than he does serving girls.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Scaeva

[Scaeva]

16 hours ago, magdalene said:

The hoi polloi are so fickle.

I'm totally Team Black but would have cheered King Aegon the Abominable too.

I think it's a bit like footage of North Koreans "mourning" the death of Kim Jong-il. Maybe it is sincere, maybe the people are pretending really hard to be sincere, because bad things are bound to happen to you if you don't look pleased.

[The Kings Foot]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

We did not know the particulars of Larys's creepiness or that Ali has compromised herself in this particular way. 

1. Did we need to know ? Will this be a plot point. Or is this just being edgy for edgy sake.

2.  I dont mean sexually compromised. I mean that she compromises in the face of stronger wills.  See the deaths of Strong and Strong.  Or her own marriage to Viserys.  In fact her doing that with Larys  weakens the big moment she had in the previous scene standing up to her father. 

So if we had to have this scene I would've written it so that she knows Larys' fetish and simply uses her feet the way some women use cleavage.  Just to gain advantage over the guy theyre dealing with. Not this bizarre situation. 

Edited October 17, 2022 by The Kings Foot

[jane1978]

2 hours ago, Avabelle said:

Alicent insisting that Viscerys actually wanted Aegon The Rapist to be king through some incoherent babbling on his deathbed when he had literally declared that day and for years before that it was Rhaenyra he wanted as successor just sums up how weak willed her entire character arc is.

This show has become such a difficult watch. There’s no justification for what the Hightowers are doing other than pure greed. They can attempt to make Alicent more sympathetic by having her throw confused looks whenever someone is murdered but really it just makes an already weak character look stupider.

This is GRRM world and he will argue that there are no inherently evil people (well, except some psychopats), but normal people driven to evil things by circumstances. Alicent wants her son to be a king because it will secure her family´s power and now also fullfills her late husband wish, but that doesn´t mean she is also ok with killing her best childhood friend and her family.

It´s also clear the transition wouldn´t be clear even if she decided against it. The plot was already going and she was the only wild card Otto had not accounted with. It was his lucky star that she was there when her husband king was dying. I don´t think she would go with it otherwise and Otto would have to use the original "it´s either we or they" argument. But he wouldn´t just give up because she decided to support Rhae.

And I don´t think the show is siding with the greens in any way. Ali has a horrible allies and we spend a lot of time with her sons to see they are not the best ruling material.

Meantime, Rhae gets the convenient out so she doesn´t even have to kill her first husband to be with Daemon and both her kids are shown as sweet, kind, innocent boys. 

Things are definitely not even and I think the writers are doing their best with the cards GRRM has given them. But if the story is supposed to go for another four years and Ali and Rhae will be the main players for most of it, they cannot have one of the players turn into a C-movie villain just cackling and planning to murder anyone who is in her way. That may eventually come if there are more loses and more tragedy coming after the war starts, but it´s too soon for it now.

She already did some horrible things, but she still wants to believe there can be a happy ending with no war and her and Rhae´s family both alive and safe. 

[Avabelle]

3 minutes ago, jane1978 said:

it will secure her family´s power and now also fullfills her late husband wish, but

Alicent knows full well it wasn’t Viscerys wish to have Rhaenyra usurped and Aegon as king. Aegon said as much to her enroute to the throning. It’s yet another lie Alicent has convinced herself to justify what her actions.

[RobertDeSneero]

1 hour ago, Dac22 said:

As early as episode six, she was telling Aegon he was going to be king. She might not have known about Otto's plans, even if he wasn't exactly subtle about them since Aegon was born, but she was still gunning to take the throne from Rhaenyra.

Does she really want to displace Rhaenyra or is she more interested in preventing the Strong bastards from stealing a throne that doesn't belong to them due to their illegitimate parentage?  In Alicent's ideal world, I think she wants her Aegon to be Rhaenyra's heir.

[Oscirus]

2 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Does she really want to displace Rhaenyra or is she more interested in preventing the Strong bastards from stealing a throne that doesn't belong to them due to their illegitimate parentage?  In Alicent's ideal world, I think she wants her Aegon to be Rhaenyra's heir.

If that was the case, rhae's last two kids shouldve solved that problem since neither of them are bastards

[aghst]

Cloaks are like the medieval version of hoodies.

IOW, there were poseurs back then too.

BTW, did Alicent tell Agon she wanted him to be a "compassionate" ruler or something like that?

Or did she only say that he should not be cruel and callous.

Nice that she's not as bloodthirsty as Otto but hell just a few years ago, she did cut a bitch, trying to go eye for eye.

So now she's lost her blood thirst?

[Chicago Redshirt]

32 minutes ago, The Kings Foot said:

1. Did we need to know ? Will this be a plot point. Or is this just being edgy for edgy sake.

2.  I dont mean sexually compromised. I mean that she compromises in the face of stronger wills.  See the deaths of Strong and Strong.  Or her own marriage to Viserys.  In fact her doing that with Larys  weakens the big moment she had in the previous scene standing up to her father. 

So if we had to have this scene I would've written it so that she knows Larys' fetish and simply uses her feet the way some women use cleavage.  Just to gain advantage over the guy theyre dealing with. Not this bizarre situation. 

There is a difference in the deaths of the Strongs and this. Ali (rightfully, IMO but some people may think otherwise) proclaimed that she had no clue that Larys would be murdering his relatives after their conversation about how she wanted her father back at her side. and no desire for him to have done so. 

Here, there is no doubt that she is almost literally in bed with Larys at this point. She is willing to trade information for at least one level of sexual favor. Knowing this is how their relationship has evolved is IMO useful information for characterization, if not as a plot point.

I think knowing that their relationship has a fully transactional dimension of Larys' information in exchange for Ali fully indulging Larys' foot fetish is different from  Ali showing a little bit of foot to get Larys off-balance. What it says to viewers will vary.

Some people have said it suggests Ali is a hypocrite. Others might say that it shows that she's now actively playing the Game with what she has. Still others might say a half-dozen other things.

[Jack Shaftoe]

1 hour ago, Dac22 said:

As early as episode six, she was telling Aegon he was going to be king. She might not have known about Otto's plans, even if he wasn't exactly subtle about them since Aegon was born, but she was still gunning to take the throne from Rhaenyra.

So how was she going to accomplish that without using some force?

If we are to accept Alicent's protestations of ignorance and innocence as honest, the inevitable conclusion is that she is, simply put, an idiot. I very much doubt the show writers want us to reach that particular conclusion but I can't interpret the events in any other way. Her father has been gathering support for her son (as anyone who wants to put a claimant on the throne needs to do) and she is all "You did what?!?". Like she expected some deity to come down from the heavens and crown Aegon without anyone needing to do anything undignified.

Of course, it makes little sense for the plotters to not inform her about their plans in the first place but still that reaction was super weird. Otto has been saying "It's Rhaenyra or you kids" ever since they were born, what exactly did she expect him to do once the king finally kicked the bucket?

Alicent thinking Viserys' dying wish counts for anything politically if there weren't any witnesses to it but her also presents her more like a rather dim ingenue than a skilled political player that the show seems to want us to see her as.

[Chicago Redshirt]

28 minutes ago, Avabelle said:

Alicent knows full well it wasn’t Viscerys wish to have Rhaenyra usurped and Aegon as king. Aegon said as much to her enroute to the throning. It’s yet another lie Alicent has convinced herself to justify what her actions.

Ali, at least as the show is playing her, seems to genuinely believe that Viserys has changed his mind on his deathbed.

[Oscirus]

1 minute ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Ali, at least as the show is playing her, seems to genuinely believe that Viserys has changed his mind on his deathbed.

And its inconsistent with previous episodes. Almost as if the show wants us to put all the dislike we'd have for her alicent onto her other team green members.

[RobertDeSneero]

12 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

If we are to accept Alicent's protestations of ignorance and innocence as honest, the inevitable conclusion is that she is, simply put, an idiot.

Well, yeah, but so was Ned Stark.  She's just more likely to keep her head through the first season than he was while being one of the more honorable characters in this drama.

8 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

And its inconsistent with previous episodes. Almost as if the show wants us to put all the dislike we'd have for her alicent onto her other team green members.

I think it's been consistent, but I've considered Alicent more likeable than most of the players on the other side.

[Chicago Redshirt]

28 minutes ago, aghst said:

Nice that she's not as bloodthirsty as Otto but hell just a few years ago, she did cut a bitch, trying to go eye for eye.

So now she's lost her blood thirst?

There's a difference between thinking that a grievous injury to her son demands an eye for an eye justice and thinking that ensuring her son's life/her husband's wish be fulfilled/satiating her thirst for power or whatever motivations one might ascribe to her include killing her childhood friend and step daughter and her whole family as a first resort.

23 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

If we are to accept Alicent's protestations of ignorance and innocence as honest, the inevitable conclusion is that she is, simply put, an idiot. I very much doubt the show writers want us to reach that particular conclusion but I can't interpret the events in any other way. Her father has been gathering support for her son (as anyone who wants to put a claimant on the throne needs to do) and she is all "You did what?!?". Like she expected some deity to come down from the heavens and crown Aegon without anyone needing to do anything undignified.

Of course, it makes little sense for the plotters to not inform her about their plans in the first place but still that reaction was super weird. Otto has been saying "It's Rhaenyra or you kids" ever since they were born, what exactly did she expect him to do once the king finally kicked the bucket?

Alicent thinking Viserys' dying wish counts for anything politically if there weren't any witnesses to it but her also presents her more like a rather dim ingenue than a skilled political player that the show seems to want us to see her as.

It makes perfect sense IMO for Evil Otto and the Plotters (nice band name)  to not tell Ali about what they are doing.

1. Plausible deniability. It makes sense to keep the circle of conspirators as small as possible.

2. Ali brings little to the table in terms of being able to plot, reach out to lords, etc.

3. She has a va-jay-jay 

4. She is religious and might not be -- and in fact was not -- on board with the "First, let's kill the Rhae line of succession" plan.

I think there's a difference between knowing that Otto was saying "It's you or them" for years and knowing that Otto has planned to wipe them out as a pre-emptive first strike that he was hoping to execute before Viserys' body was cold.  

I am not sure the show wants to think of Ali as a skilled political player. If anything, quite the opposite. Not only was she deliberately excluded from the usurpation plot, she had no inkling that it was going on. (For that matter, though, neither did the one guy Cris killed. Nor, as far as we know, do Rhae and Dae.)

Of all the things that Ali has done this season, I (as someone who generally sees her as a positive-adjacent character) can't really think of anything that I would classify as politically adept. The closest I would say is telling Rhenyrs that she should have been queen and soliciting her neutrality/support. But even that seems to be Ali saying what she believes to be true, rather than political games.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[Lady Whistleup]

I've always been convinced that Alicent loves Rhaenyra, and I think her reluctance to off Rhaenyra's family stems from that. It's so long ago but the friendship with Rhaenyra has become Alicent's Rosebud -- a reminder of when she was innocent and happy.

[Chicago Redshirt]

12 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

And its inconsistent with previous episodes. Almost as if the show wants us to put all the dislike we'd have for her alicent onto her other team green members.

What is inconsistent with previous episodes? That Viserys might change his mind? Or that Ali might think that Viserys would change his mind?

[Oscirus]

5 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

What is inconsistent with previous episodes? That Viserys might change his mind? Or that Ali might think that Viserys would change his mind?

Both. If anything, the Aemond eye incident should show anybody with half a brain that he doesnt give a shit about any of his kids from her. Add to that his calling her by the wrong name and forgetting he has other children and common sense would tell her that he clearly wasnt talking about his son taking over. Theres been nothing established in the previous 8 episodes that would mark her as delusional.

[aghst]

7 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

There's a difference between thinking that a grievous injury to her son demands an eye for an eye justice and thinking that ensuring her son's life/her husband's wish be fulfilled/satiating her thirst for power or whatever motivations one might ascribe to her include killing her childhood friend and step daughter and her whole family as a first resort.

7 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I've always been convinced that Alicent loves Rhaenyra, and I think her reluctance to off Rhaenyra's family stems from that. It's so long ago but the friendship with Rhaenyra has become Alicent's Rosebud -- a reminder of when she was innocent and happy.

Please, she's not that naive.

She was already a mother when Otto told her she and her children could be in danger.

What Otto left unsaid was that they would have to kill or be killed.

What did she think was going to happen, if there's any dispute about succession, they would defeat her in the succession battle and spare her life?

A lot of lives will be lost, as wars, especially medieval wars are fought.  The victors of a bloody war is not going to be in a mood for showing leniency to the vanquished.

So if she was envisioning that her claim would prevail, it almost certainly means Raynera has to die.

Or did she think Raynear was going to accept her claim that Viserys anointed Agon and would meekly surrender?

[Oscirus]

Also in that talk that she had with aegon six years ago, she told him that if Rhae ever became queen that shed have to kill Aegon and his siblings cuz they'd be threats. Why would she then proceed to think that a bloddless coup is possible when they're actually doing the thing that Rhaenyra feared?

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

Both. If anything, the Aemond eye incident should show anybody with half a brain that he doesnt give a shit about any of his kids from her. Add to that his calling her by the wrong name and forgetting he has other children and common sense would tell her that he clearly wasnt talking about his son taking over. Theres been nothing established in the previous 8 episodes that would mark her as delusional.

There are a lot of things that went into the Aemond eye incident that have nothing to do with him allegedly not giving a shit about his kids through Alicent, including, but not limited to, him wanting to be "Viserys the Peaceful" and wanting to avoid conflict.

I don't think it was shown elsewhere that he did not love his kids through Ali at all, although I think it is a fair interpretation that he places Rhae above them inherently because Rhae is a product of his one true love. 

I don't think it should be necessarily clear to someone in Ali's position that he wasn't talking about her son Aegon but instead Aegon the Conqueror. It doesn't take delusions to think that he had a deathbed conversion, although it's certainly arguable that it took some wishful thinking. 

Just now, aghst said:

Please, she's not that naive.

She was already a mother when Otto told her she and her children could be in danger.

What Otto left unsaid was that they would have to kill or be killed.

What did she think was going to happen, if there's any dispute about succession, they would defeat her in the succession battle and spare her life?

A lot of lives will be lost, as wars, especially medieval wars are fought.  The victors of a bloody war is not going to be in a mood for showing leniency to the vanquished.

So if she was envisioning that her claim would prevail, it almost certainly means Raynera has to die.

Or did she think Raynear was going to accept her claim that Viserys anointed Agon and would meekly surrender?

In this episode, she said what she thought might happen: she could present Rhae with fair terms that Rhae would agree to.

To which it's a fair question: Haaaaaaaaaave you met Rhae?  

[Jack Shaftoe]

6 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

2. Ali brings little to the table in terms of being able to plot, reach out to lords, etc.

Maybe if ladies in waiting and other courtiers existed in this show outside of the throne room scenes she would have had a lot to offer in terms of networking... Also, she does have the lord of Harrenhal as her confidant, at least, this should count for something.

Quote

1. Plausible deniability.

Deniability in the eyes of who exactly? Once this plot moved forward, Alicent would have had to support Aegon's claim publicly and no one was going to care if she was onboard with the plot from the start or joined in the eleventh hour.

And I am not saying Alicent should be familiar with all the dirty details like who are all the members of "We want the lazy rapist on the throne" club and how many troops can each of them contribute to the cause but she certainty shouldn't be surprised that said club exists and that her father is its leader.

14 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I am not sure the show wants to think of Ali as a skilled political player. If anything, quite the opposite.

There were anvils falling in the previous episode that Alicent had been ruling for the past six years, not Viserys. Since the kingdom didn't seem to suffer any negative effects and the opposite faction didn't manage to wrestle the control over the king from the Greens, I would say we were supposed to think she is at least not too terrible at politics.

And from a more meta perspective, there has been so much focus on Alicent that it's unlikely that she won't be the head of her faction in the long run, so this sudden "But I want peace, honest" attitude comes across as "The lady doth protest too much, methinks".

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Also in that talk that she had with aegon six years ago, she told him that if Rhae ever became queen that shed have to kill Aegon and his siblings cuz they'd be threats. Why would she then proceed to think that a bloddless coup is possible when they're actually doing the thing that Rhaenyra feared?

She thinks that she can come up with terms that Rhae would be able to live with. If Rhae accepts terms, the chances of people pushing Rhae as the rightful queen such that she proves an ongoing threat are slim.

By contrast, since the men of Westeros would rather put the Seven Kingdoms to the torch than let a woman rule it (as Rhaenys said and Rhae herself confirms is a valid fear), her legitimacy as a ruling queen is always going to be in question, and doubly so if it ever comes out that her boys are Strongs rather than Velaryons, which is probably inevitable now that Viserys isn't around to force people to be willfully blind.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 minute ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Maybe if ladies in waiting and other courtiers existed in this show outside of the throne room scenes she would have had a lot to offer in terms of networking... Also, she does have the lord of Harrenhal as her confidant, at least, this should count for something.

Deniability in the eyes of who exactly? Once this plot moved forward, Alicent would have had to support Aegon's claim publicly and no one was going to care if she was onboard with the plot from the start or joined in the eleventh hour.

And I am not saying Alicent should be familiar with all the dirty details like who are all the members of "We want the lazy rapist on the throne" club and how many troops can each of them contribute to the cause but she certainty shouldn't be surprised that said club exists and that her father is its leader.

There were anvils falling in the previous episode that Alicent had been ruling for the past six years, not Viserys. Since the kingdom didn't seem to suffer any negative effects and the opposite faction didn't manage to wrestle the control over the king from the Greens, I would say we were supposed to think she is at least not too terrible at politics.

And from a more meta perspective, there has been so much focus on Alicent that it's unlikely that she won't be the head of her faction in the long run, so this sudden "But I want peace, honest" attitude comes across as "The lady doth protest too much, methinks".

I imagine that Larys has some ties to Otto and the Plotters, but I guess we will see.

We learned in this episode that there are spies watching the queen. If the plotters brought her in on the plot, these spies might learn of it and tell the wrong people.

If there was another leak in the plot, and anyone confronted Ali about it, she would be able to say with a straight face that it was ridiculous and there was no such plot. Ali is not very good (IMO) in straight up lying to people. She can keep secrets and withhold information with the best of them. But unlike most characters that we have seen in the show, she hasn't straight up lied or even lied much by omission.

The statement is that the Hightowers have been ruling, and, really, that much of it is the work of Otto as Hand. I don't think that there has been much showing that Ali is in her own right adept at anything political. If you can cite to any of her individual successes the show has demonstrated, feel free.

[Oscirus]

14 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

There are a lot of things that went into the Aemond eye incident that have nothing to do with him allegedly not giving a shit about his kids through Alicent, including, but not limited to, him wanting to be "Viserys the Peaceful" and wanting to avoid conflict.

I don't think it was shown elsewhere that he did not love his kids through Ali at all, although I think it is a fair interpretation that he places Rhae above them inherently because Rhae is a product of his one true love. 

I don't think it should be necessarily clear to someone in Ali's position that he wasn't talking about her son Aegon but instead Aegon the Conqueror. It doesn't take delusions to think that he had a deathbed conversion, although it's certainly arguable that it took some wishful thinking. 

He ignored his injured son in favor of finding out where he heard the rumor about his grandkids being bastards. He was clearly more pissed about the b word then Aemonds loss of an eye. 

To think that Viserys wanted Aegon as an heir when he didnt include him in meetings like he did with Rhae and seeminly didnt even care about Aegon's marriage is to ignore what Viserys wanted in favor of what the hightowers did.

I feel as if his position on who he wanted to be his heir was pretty clear to anybody that was paying attention. She heard what she wanted to hear and pushed it because it furthered her agenda

[Jack Shaftoe]

10 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

She thinks that she can come up with terms that Rhae would be able to live with. If Rhae accepts terms, the chances of people pushing Rhae as the rightful queen such that she proves an ongoing threat are slim.

The two sides could have negotiated a peaceful settlement many years ago. Instead, Alicent has been among the most belligerent of the Greens - she accused Rhaenyra of adultery gazillion times and even tried to stab her. It's hardly surprising that Otto and company were flabbergasted by her sudden love for peace and non-confrontation.

[Lady Whistleup]

Otto made me really miss Tywin Lannister. Similar type characters, but somehow Tywin Lannister was so much more likable.

[Oscirus]

4 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Otto made me really miss Tywin Lannister. Similar type characters, but somehow Tywin Lannister was so much more likable.

At least tywin had control of the nuclear bomb that he put on the throne, Otto only thinks he can control the drunken rapey nuke that he forced there

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

The two sides could have negotiated a peaceful settlement many years ago. Instead, Alicent has been among the most belligerent of the Greens - she accused Rhaenyra of adultery gazillion times and even tried to stab her. It's hardly surprising that Otto and company were flabbergasted by her sudden love for peace and non-confrontation.

Ali proposed a peaceful solution years ago: intermarriage between Rhae's family and hers. Viserys thought that was a good plan. Rhae pissed all over it.

ETA: Sorry, brain freeze, it was Rhae who proposed it and Ali who scotched it as someone pointed out below. My bad.

Ali has only cast shade about Rhae's adultery and never actually accused Rhae of it as far as we've been shown.

Again, there's a difference between being distraught over a grievous injury to one's son and plotting premeditated murder.

I don't think Otto and Co were "flabbergasted by her sudden love for peace and non-confrontation."   

Edited October 18, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[Sakura12]

The Queen that never was sure knows how to make Queen's exit. Dany did what her ancestors should've done. 

Everyone knows Aegon will be a terrible King. I'm guessing Otto is hoping to control him like he did Alicent. When he should know that being a man means it won't work the same way for long. He even said in the beginning that every man desires absolute power. 

The Greens should really start listening to Haelena's ramblings. She's been right everytime. It might give them an advantage. 

I guess Rhaenys finally decided to back a Rheanyra has Queen. Or she knows the Hightower's word doesn't mean much and she'd rather align with her family. 

[cambridgeguy]

13 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Ali proposed a peaceful solution years ago: intermarriage between Rhae's family and hers. Viserys thought that was a good plan. Rhae pissed all over it.

When did she do that?  Rhaenyra was the one who proposed a Jace/Heleana match and Alicent basically said over my dead body even though Viserys loved the idea.

[Stardancer Supreme]

1 hour ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Does she really want to displace Rhaenyra or is she more interested in preventing the Strong bastards from stealing a throne that doesn't belong to them due to their illegitimate parentage?  In Alicent's ideal world, I think she wants her Aegon to be Rhaenyra's heir.

This story is written so poorly. The main thing here is that a male Targaryen must be on the Iron Throne. Okay. These Westerosi men just simply cannot abide a woman, Targaryen or otherwise, to be on the Iron Throne, so let her son inherit it. But wait, We want the right Targaryen to be on the throne; one whose father was Targaryen is optimal!  Cause we don't want no female Targaryen running things around here! Her girl cooties will even infect her sons!  This is like watching bad incel fanfic. 

Rhaenyra's sons are part Targaryen; so are Alicent's sons! This is why this whole situation is so nonsensical.  If Alicent wanted Aegon II to be Rhaenyra's heir as opposed to her own son, it probably would have been cool but Rhaenyra has to be Queen first.  This whole war is starting because the men around the King didn't want a woman running them. The only roadblock to any type of peaceful solution is not having a penis.

[Chicago Redshirt]

13 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

When did she do that?  Rhaenyra was the one who proposed a Jace/Heleana match and Alicent basically said over my dead body even though Viserys loved the idea.

I stand corrected.

[Scaeva]

48 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

The two sides could have negotiated a peaceful settlement many years ago. Instead, Alicent has been among the most belligerent of the Greens - she accused Rhaenyra of adultery gazillion times and even tried to stab her. It's hardly surprising that Otto and company were flabbergasted by her sudden love for peace and non-confrontation.

Hypocritcally too it seems, as that nausea-inducing scene with Larys was rather obviously not the first time they'd done that and the king's corpse had not yet grown cold. It might have been transactional and clearly not something she enjoyed, but that doesn't make it any less adulterous.

Alicen't real issue with Rhaenrya isn't that Rhaenyra was living a dissolute life, but rather jealousy at Rhaenyra having agency that she sorely lacked. Similarly the outrage directed at the illegitimacy of Rhaenyra's children was motivated more by a desire to see her own son elevated, at the expense of Rhaenyra, than any true sense of indignation over moral boundaries having been crossed. Having said that I do think Alicent truly believes she's taken a moral stand, but in that she's lied to herself to assuage herself of any guilt over having played just as dirty as the others in the game of thrones.

[KittyQ]

23 hours ago, AntFTW said:

How exactly do you even propose such an arrangement? How do you bring that up?

A little delicately. Something like, "One thing that I miss / like is seeing a beautiful foot and ankle. I find it so wonderful, that I would do or say anything." Maybe a wink, wink, too. 

[CountryGirl]

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

When did she do that?  Rhaenyra was the one who proposed a Jace/Heleana match and Alicent basically said over my dead body even though Viserys loved the idea.

And I have to imagine Helaena would have loved it, too. 

[Lady S.]

6 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Does she really want to displace Rhaenyra or is she more interested in preventing the Strong bastards from stealing a throne that doesn't belong to them due to their illegitimate parentage?  In Alicent's ideal world, I think she wants her Aegon to be Rhaenyra's heir.

Yes, that must be why she declared war at Rhaenyra's wedding then immediately after passive-aggressively congratulating Rhaenyra abandoned the high table to seek out her uncle Lord Hightower and let him know they were on the same page. Y'know, her uncle Lord Hightower who was hailing "Aegon the conqueror-babe" back in ep 3, and was even more gung-ho about it than Otto. I know I'm a broken record on this by now, but if the entire conflict was meant to be put down to Rhaenyra's adultery, then we wouldn't see Alicent's dramatic turn happen with young Alicent before any of those bastards were born. I'm sure she would have been happy for Aegon to come after Rhaenyra in the early days (and I think teen Rhaenyra might have been too if it meant she didn't have to pop out heirs of her own), but this is just revision of history to ignore the actual events of ep 5. Even if Harwin's sons were disinherited, Rhaenyra would still be legitimate, and even if she herself were disinherited her two sons by Daemon are still 100% legit and 100% innocent. Alicent never once suggested disinheriting only the putative Velaryons to put Aegon right behind Rhaenyra as a compromise and did not mention the boys' paternity when telling Aegon they were a danger to him and that he would be king in ep 6. 

The other proof that Alicent isn't motivated solely by a moral duty to keep bastards off the throne is that she ended her toast last week by telling Rhaenyra "you'll make a fine Queen". She didn't have to say that! Everyone else was toasting each other's health, not acknowledging anyone's claim to the throne. Otto had a "wtf" offended look after he heard that and again when she reached out to Rhaenyra at the end of the scene. Alicent at least recognizes that a whore and a bastard as heirs is in no way worse than a drunken serial rapist. (A drunken serial rapist who delights in human cockfights using children and lets at least one of his own bastards be raised for that pursuit! It is beyond me to think we are meant to root for this man to kill Rhaenyra and all of her sons.)

Alicent/Rhaenyra's last reconcilation was always going to be temporary, though, no matter Viserys's last words, as seen by their sons' lack of interest in peace. Otto was never going to accept Rhaenyra and was plotting with half the small council to usurp the throne, even behind Alicent's back. Aemond would never accept Rhaenyra or any of her sons either, and would hardly be more forgiving if he lost his eye to a legitmate prince. And Daemon would never accept Otto's grandson as king even if he weren't married to Rhaenyra. I don't think even Otto believes or cares about Viserys's supposed last wish, but he'll run with it if it's what Alicent says. Alicent allowed herself to hear what she wanted to hear (what Otto trained her to want to hear) because no matter what she feels about Aegon, his ascension over Rhaenyra was what she'd settled on many years ago at Rhaenyra's first wedding, and she wasn't happy to give up what agency she'd held more or less ruling the realm for 6+ years and have all her misery be for naught. So she was ready to grab any straw to do what Otto wanted and believe she could still be in the right, still be loyal to Viserys.

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Everyone knows Aegon will be a terrible King. I'm guessing Otto is hoping to control him like he did Alicent. When he should know that being a man means it won't work the same way for long. He even said in the beginning that every man desires absolute power. 

I guess Rhaenys finally decided to back a Rheanyra has Queen. Or she knows the Hightower's word doesn't mean much and she'd rather align with her family. 

Yeah, I thought of Otto's quote from the pilot too when watching Aegon basking in those cheers and starting to enjoy his crown. Even in the pilot, I think the quote applied just as much, if not more, to Otto, than Daemon. Just as Daemon's quote about Otto being a landless second son applied just as much to himself, as we now see it applies to Aemond too.

I think Alicent's pitch to Rhaenys had two glaring flaws which meant it was doomed to failure. 1. She tries to flatter Rhaenys by admitting she should have been Queen, then asks her to support a King who'd be much worse than his father. Alicent might be naive enough to think she can "gently" guide her son, but Rhaenys is too smart to believe that. 2. Alicent is in no position to offer Driftmark to Rhaenys and her granddaughters when the girls are both in Daemon/Rhaenyra's custody. (Baela was absent this ep so I assume she went back to Dragonstone after being betrothed to Jace, since Grandma wouldn't just abandon her in a hostile court.) But really I do think she was always going to side with her closest kin after giving her word publicly last week. When it comes down to it, she loved Viserys, despite him taking a crown which could have been hers, and loves Corlys, despite their private disagreements about pursuing that crown at all costs. Alicent doesn't understand that, and it wouldn't even occur to her to think that way given her own more screwed-up relationships with her husband and her rivals. (IMO Rhaenys looked to be seething last week when Vaemond was bad-mouthing Corlys at the start of the ep, even if she had privately had similar thoughts in the immediate grief over Laena's death.) Alicent saying Corlys abandoned her may have been a bid for sympathy and solidarity, but really it was just an insult to her pride, and from what we've seen of Corlys and Rhaenys together he does seem to respect her more than Viserys ever did Alicent.

Updated for 1.09.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Lady S.

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

1. Did we need to know ? Will this be a plot point. Or is this just being edgy for edgy sake.

2.  I dont mean sexually compromised. I mean that she compromises in the face of stronger wills.  See the deaths of Strong and Strong.  Or her own marriage to Viserys.  In fact her doing that with Larys  weakens the big moment she had in the previous scene standing up to her father. 

So if we had to have this scene I would've written it so that she knows Larys' fetish and simply uses her feet the way some women use cleavage.  Just to gain advantage over the guy theyre dealing with. Not this bizarre situation. 

I thought the main plot point of the issue was to show us that Alicent now knows about the spy network and can have Larys working on that. And the foot part showed us just how much she's come to depend on his help. For all she started out just needing a friend maybe, and then being horrified at help she didn't ask for, now he's the one with the power in the relationship. Of course she doesn't have to take her stockings off for him. She does it because she's become dependent on him.

[qtpye]

On 10/16/2022 at 10:12 PM, SilverStormm said:

Oh Rhaenys why couldn't you just

Especially Krispy Kreme.

On 10/16/2022 at 10:15 PM, absnow54 said:

I had the same thought. It was such a dumb, Ned move!

On 10/16/2022 at 10:27 PM, mac123x said:

Wow, the "women are good and peaceful and men are horrible war mongerers" message was a little heavy handed.  And WTF was with the White Worm's sudden social activism?  They didn't set up the child pit fighting until like 3 minutes earlier in the episode, and she's a master spy but also a social worker.  Weird.

Loved Alicent throughout the show.  The actress is so good.

That dragon killed a lot of innocent small folk so there was nothing good about it. It was so stupid to kill innocent people but not wipe out all the Greens and then make them mad.

In trying to make the women "moral" they are making them stupid.

As Cersei said (who the Hell thought I would be quoting her) you either win the Game of Thrones or you die.

Edited October 18, 2022 by qtpye

[qtpye]

5 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

If we are to accept Alicent's protestations of ignorance and innocence as honest, the inevitable conclusion is that she is, simply put, an idiot. I very much doubt the show writers want us to reach that particular conclusion but I can't interpret the events in any other way. Her father has been gathering support for her son (as anyone who wants to put a claimant on the throne needs to do) and she is all "You did what?!?". Like she expected some deity to come down from the heavens and crown Aegon without anyone needing to do anything undignified.

Of course, it makes little sense for the plotters to not inform her about their plans in the first place but still that reaction was super weird. Otto has been saying "It's Rhaenyra or you kids" ever since they were born, what exactly did she expect him to do once the king finally kicked the bucket?

Alicent thinking Viserys' dying wish counts for anything politically if there weren't any witnesses to it but her also presents her more like a rather dim ingenue than a skilled political player that the show seems to want us to see her as.

Yes, she seems as much of an idiot as her husband and being stupid does not make a character sympathetic.

[Oscirus]

She couldnt just fly out the front door of the pit have the dragon yell as it flew by? Same show of power, less deaths

[Lady S.]

8 hours ago, Constantinople said:

By sparing Alicent & Co., Rhaenys is acknowledging their humanity but seems to be denying the humanity of the smallfolk.

Which is pretty par for the course with these Targaryens. So I can buy her sparing Alicent as a mother (and Helaena as the only innocent Targ there if we assume a precision strike was impossible), while not caring so much about random civilans, even if I don't see it as a noble gesture. She could also see a difference between collateral damage and intentional kinslaying. Fighting within the House of the Dragon in battle would be one thing, but this would be straight-up murder done face-to-face.  

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

What I'm saying is that we don't know if the Faith of the Seven is going to frown on sex-adjacent activities, or whether it could be justified in Ali's mind as a necessary evil.

Alicent herself is on record as frowning on sex-adjacent activities when she told Rhaenyra it was foolish to put herself in a compromising position with Daemon while believing Rhaenyra was still a virgin. Alicent chose to believe Rhaenyra's lies and half-truths for her own reasons but she dropped her hands as soon as she could in that scene like they were burning hot or sluttiness were contagious. 

7 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Let's remember that Helaena never really had any bond with Alicent.  When she was born, she was always screaming her head off whenever Alicent held her. Her birth must not have been as "easy" as Aegon's...

I did notice that Helaena first clutched onto Aemond when Rhaenys/Meleys made their big entrance. Maybe even they could have been happy if Aemond had his wish about being the one chosen to marry her. If we go back to the Daemon comparison, he murdered his first, unrelated wife, but has been a loyal partner to Rhaenyra. (And as far as Laena, I think we have to take his and Rhaenyra's words on the beach with some salt, coming from two drama queens prone to sulking. He and Laena did look pretty happy flying their dragons together, just as Rhaenyra was smiling happily when inroducing Harwin to his last child.)

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I can't believe she'd honestly be suggesting that because it would be about as likely as her foot fetish guy claiming the throne. She's a woman with no royal blood. How would she even make a claim?

This is the part of Rhaenys' actions I found most confusing but I don't believe she was seriously suggesting Alicent claim the throne in her own name, much less saying she'd support that. More like you can't even dream of a better world. Or can't you at least admit you're acting for yourself and not the realm? And there is one person who can sit the Iron Throne with no royal blood: the King's Hand. We saw Otto do it last ep, just as Ned and Tywin did in GoT. I remember being struck back then that though Cersei seized the throne after Tommen's suicide and her Sept massacre, it never occurred to her to just name herself Tommen's Hand in s5. She tells Uncle Kevan that obviously it wouldn't be fit for a woman to be Hand or some such. But one would think the rules for the Handship would be less strict than those for the Crown, especially when the King's mother is already sitting on his council. Now Alicent's doing the same thing, sitting in the king's seat in the council room while still deferring to Otto, up until she learned he and half the other councillors had been plotting behind her back. (And it's that that really offends her, I think, more than him plotting to usurp the throne from Rhaenyra. After he praised her determination and they ruled together for all those years where she may have thought she finally had his respect, he's still treating her like a child.) At the very least, if she wanted to be the prime influence over Aegon and to stop being Otto's pawn, she could just fire him or or try to convince Aegon to do so and choose a new Hand loyal to her. But she'd never do that much because she is so stuck in her gilded cage and one of Alicent's most consistent character traits is overestimating her influence over the men in her life.

[jeansheridan]

7 hours ago, Scaeva said:

beware the beast beneath the boards." It is possible that gift of foresight revealed something about her mother.

I think it is about Larys and how he imprisons people below. 

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Like I said; fidelity matters to such folks because it goes hand in glove with trustworthiness. In a place/time where dna tests don't exist, the only way a man could have any certainty that his children were actually his, was knowing his wife was faithful and trustworthy. A wife has the ability to fool a husband in that manner, the same is not true in reverse. That's why complete trust and faithfulness was/is paramount.

But if a husband were jealous, he wouldn't have trusted in his wife's faithfulness in any case. And even if he had, his honor would have got a stain in others' eyes if he hadn't acted in case there were rumors about his wife. And such rumours would have risen already if a wife were alone with some other man than her husband or family member.

Which means: the writers haven't really pondered how such a society works.

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, Lady S. said:

At the very least, if she wanted to be the prime influence over Aegon and to stop being Otto's pawn, she could just fire him or or try to convince Aegon to do so and choose a new Hand loyal to her.

No, she can't fire Otto because he has backing of other men in the council.

[Roseanna]

8 hours ago, aghst said:

Please, she's not that naive.

She was already a mother when Otto told her she and her children could be in danger.

What Otto left unsaid was that they would have to kill or be killed.

What did she think was going to happen, if there's any dispute about succession, they would defeat her in the succession battle and spare her life?

A lot of lives will be lost, as wars, especially medieval wars are fought.  The victors of a bloody war is not going to be in a mood for showing leniency to the vanquished.

So if she was envisioning that her claim would prevail, it almost certainly means Raynera has to die.

Or did she think Raynear was going to accept her claim that Viserys anointed Agon and would meekly surrender?

It's quite common that people are reluctant to face the truth when it's too dreadful. Even Stalin who was by nature suspicious and had years believed and said that Russia will be attacked by "imperialists", refused to believe that Hitler would attack in June 1941.

Also, it's different when you are in the middle of happenings yourself than when an outsider looks at them. Even more than irl it's true in fiction where the audience knows much more than characters.

That said, the writers should have pondered characters and their motivations much more.    

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

No, she can't fire Otto because he has backing of other men in the council.

She can't fire Otto because she isn't the King.  She can try to convince Aegon to do so, just like Rhaenyra did with Viserys, or she could try to talk (or blackmail) him into resigning, but she can't just order him gone even if the rest of the council hated Otto.

[Meredith Quill]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

But if a husband were jealous, he wouldn't have trusted in his wife's faithfulness in any case. And even if he had, his honor would have got a stain in others' eyes if he hadn't acted in case there were rumors about his wife. And such rumours would have risen already if a wife were alone with some other man than her husband or family member.

Which means: the writers haven't really pondered how such a society works.

I never professed it to be fair. The patriarchy never cared about being fair to women, quite the opposite in fact. For this and other reasons, they wanted women oppressed and controlled by societal norms/rules, and consequently, down the ages, we absolutely were.

Which, imo, means the writers got it correct in that regard.