S01.E08: The Lord of the Tides

[Scaeva]

16 hours ago, dramachick said:

Paddy Considine has been fabulous! He is a great actor. The first time I saw him on screen was in Red Riding: The Year of Our Lord 1980, which is the second film in the Red Riding Trilogy.

If you like dark, gritty crime dramas you should watch the trilogy. It also stars Andrew Garfield, Sean Bean, Mark Addy, David Morrissey, etc. You can probably check out the DVDs from the public library if you don't want to pay for streaming.

Wow, that is quite stacked with talent. Thank you for the recommendation!

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I believe the whole scene was done to please the modern audience, because in that kind of society anybody in Alicent's position would have absolutely no need to do anything at all: nobody would have believed the servant girl and nobody would have cared about her fate - and she would know it. The rape mattered (and was even called a rape) only when the offer was of noble birth and her family was powerful enough to revenge the rapist or his family.

I'm not certain I agree that it was done for the audience, as it wasn't necessarily out of character for Alicent. She's not an inherently evil person, like Joffrey or Ramsay Bolton, but rather someone who started off relatively decent but then becomes morally compromised after being entangled in the politics of succession.  Her character arc, at least so far, is a bit of a tragic one.

Alicent could have had the serving girl killed, or she could have called the serving girl a liar and dismissed her, and there likely wouldn't have been consequences for either because of all the class & gender inequalities baked into Westerosi society. Either one is likely the route Cersei would have taken, but I don't think that would be in character for Alicent. She's not inherently inclined toward choosing the most evil solution, and the bad she does is usually tied in with her resentment toward Rhanira or to secure the crown for her own son.

Alicent spared the servant and paid her because the sympathy for her is genuine, as is the anger she feels toward her own son's monstrous behavior. Maybe on some level the payment was also intented to assuage her own guilt, since of course she would never allow her son to face punishment for it and she is ultimately enabling him in order to secure her own family's position, if not it's survival.

That said, Blacks for the win!

[magdalene]

2 hours ago, Avabelle said:

I don’t know if I can stick this out. Every episode is just Alicent being a cunt and getting away with it. There’s no enjoyment at all when the shitty side is just always smugly winning.

Have faith! I have to believe that the bitch and her rapist son won't be coming out on top.

Team Black is bound to have some wins eventually.

[paigow]

Who is the more direct ancestor of Aegon The Unworthy? 

• Aegon The Predator
• Aegon The Toddling Terror

[paigow]

When Viserys started his walk... the reaction shots of Otto, Alicent & Vaemond  reminded me of the final courtroom scene of The Untouchables. That is, Ness bluffed the dirty judge into swapping the juries [removing the jurors that Capone bribed].  

[AntFTW]

17 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Jon over Sansa was a special case because he was presumed to be Ned's eldest surviving child after Robb's death, and the North were treating him as such regardless of bastardy because Ned raised him as a near equal to Robb.

I would argue that it was, specifically, Jon's title as King in the North that gave him higher status over Sansa. Sansa was the Lady of Winterfell while Jon was King in the North. I would argue Sansa did inherit the privileges and power of being the Lady of Winterfell, but those privileges and power diminishes a lot because Winterfell is the seat of power in The North where the King in the North will also exercise his power. It becomes blurry and difficult to exercise the power as the 'Lady Lord' of Winterfell when the King in the North is also in Winterfell.

Edited October 13, 2022 by AntFTW

[Lady S.]

On 10/11/2022 at 8:35 PM, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Funnily enough Tom Glynn-Carney (Aegon) is 27 and Ewan Mitchell (Aemond) is 20.

Yeah, there's no way that's his real age. He started on the The Last Kingdom over 5 years ago and he definitely did not look like a teenager then either. Neither imdb nor wiki gives a birthdate for him. And I would trust those sites more than internet tabloids I've never heard of. 

On 10/11/2022 at 10:25 PM, ursula said:

Aemond holds the Strong boys responsible for his bullying, not his brother.

I think it's more he holds them responsible for losing his eye, which Aegon had nothing to do with. To give Aemond some credit, it's possible he would have let the pig thing go if the boy giggling wasn't the very same one who mutilated him without any punishment or even an apology. Granted, he was already spoiling for a fight with the way he stood up as soon as Jace hit the table, intimidating Jace into making his toast polite. But I do think his anger toward his nephews is based on that first kidfight more than them formerly being Aegon's minions. (It is kind of hilarious though that Aemond's villian origin story can be traced back to a pig.)

Forgot to mention that the godswood is officially Rhaenyra's place for telling misleading half-truths. In ep 4 she outright lied that Daemon never touched her and that she'd never fuck him, but now she's relying on technical truths which are very far from the full story. I do think it's possible Rhaenys believed Rhaenyra or wants to. Which doesn't mean she likes her since she and Daemon still married in unseemly haste, but it is plausible Laenor's death was a lucky chance for them with Qarl acting alone as killer or that Daemon arranged the murder without Rhaenyra's knowledge. He is the one with a known history of violence, including the suspected murder of his first wife. Rhaenys doesn't have the same reasons for wanting to believe Rhaenyra's sworn word as Alicent did in ep 4, but she could still want to believe her granddaughters' fates were not entrusted to a stepmother/aunt/cousin who murdered their uncle Laenor. 

As far as Daemon as a father, while I'm annoyed that the shot of him hugging both girls on the roof was cut, I do think his negligence is a bit overblown. It's Rhaena, the dragonless daughter who said he ignored her, while he was seen reading with Baela and smiling as she kissed him good night. In ep 7, he stands back post-fight yes, while Rhaenys is already comforting the girls and would not welcome his interference. The girls were the least injured in the kidfight and I think Daemon is more likely to be proud of them for throwing down and coming out the winning side than to be offended that they got hit too. When he rushes in against Criston, it's because Rhaenyra's life is under threat, but even so he's stopping a guy from possibly aiding the armed attacker, while trusting Rhaenyra to hold her own against Alicent. I don't think him failing to embrace two fairly uninjured daughters when they were in no danger means he doesn't care that they exist or whether they live or die.

But really, I think the best evidence we have is the girls continued bond with ther cousins/stepbros and their happiness about marrying them. Yeah, they befriended each other at the funeral, but none of those kids were happy about their parents' wedding, and just think how Alicent/Rhaenyra's much longer bond went to shit after they became related by marriage. Add in that the girls must know as well as anyone that their boys do not share their Velaryon blood and yet Rhaena is happy to only rule Driftmark as Luke's consort and told him he'd be a good lord. I just don't think they'd be so lovey-dovey with no jealousy toward the boys if Daemon were totally ignoring them and favoring his nephews/stepsons over his own daughters. Unless they're just saints, which no one on this show is. And Baela's continued bond with Jace, to the point that she was ready to throw down at his side again (as someone else mentioned Rhaena was holding her back as the guards held back Jace and Luke) to me implies she's had more contact with the rest of her family than just raven mail. Dragonstone and Driftmark are very close to each other, and would be an even faster journey on dragonback. 

As for Alicent and Helaena, plainly she does feel some regret about marrying off her daughter as she rushed to hug her. But just as she can't really stop Aegon raping his way through all the help short of castrating him, I don't think she can really do much to undo the marriage now either. At the time of their betrothal, Aegon was a dick but not a rapist, so Ali probably assumed it would be no different than Otto marrying her off, or even perhaps better as they were closer in age. And while Cersei didn't want her daughter married off, she was also a shitty son enabler. If sibling marriage was legal for non-Targs, would she really have a problem marrying Myrcella to Joffrey? Tommen would obviously make the better husband, but he was never meant to be king and Cersei's worst fear was an outsider replacing her as Queen. So could she really risk Joffrey marrying that scheming hussy Margaery Tyrell if making his sister queen were ever an option?

I feel like Alicent's entire character can be summed up by her quote in the pilot about how all she wanted after her mother's death was for someone to tell her they were sorry for what happened to her. Viserys never did return that sympathy she gave him, nor was anyone else sorry about what happened to her. So now she's hardened enough that she can't even say sorry that happened to you to her son's victims. I'm reminded of one of my fave Cersei quotes in Blackwater after she complains about Robert to Sansa, Sansa exclaims "but you were Robert's Queen!", and Cersei replies "As you will be Joffrey's. Enjoy!".

Alicent's relationship with Viserys really interested me this ep, because she has plenty of reason to resent him, more than Rhaenyra, or even Otto at this point imo. And one could see that resentment last ep when he was still walking around a little better, but now it seems the pity and sympathy which was the basis for her bond with him has returned now that Viserys is at his most pitiful. Yes, she and Otto are absolutely taking advantage of his condition to work their will instead of his, but it seems she did care about his pain. She had the same oh shit reaction as Otto when he made his big throne room entrance, but as he was hobbling his way up to the throne she just looked concerned for him. Then as he's done she rushes to help him up, as if she could carry him down by herself. We see a shot of Rhaenyra noticing and reacting, which along with the music cues during the dinner and Olivia Cooke's performance, is enough to convince me that Rhaenyra's toast had some sincerity to it. Finally there's the way that before Viserys mistook Alicent for Rhaenyra he first mistook Rhaenyra for Alicent. Given that she is a distant third (if that) as his favorite women go, I think that mistake was due to habit more than affection, which I think indicates she is regularly tending him when not busy ruling in his name or cleaning up after her son. She doesn't have to do that, especially now that he's too out of it to know or care much what she does.

Lastly, for all the comparisons of Helaena to Luna Lovegood, I'm surprised no one mentioned that Rhys Ifans played Luna's father in the movie. It was enough to make me doubt myself and double check imdb that was him. Anyways, when she makes her little toast, Otto smiles and compliments her while Alicent looks embarrassed. Maybe that means she's his favorite of the green Targs too, or maybe he just encouraged her because someone (had to be Daemon*) was laughing at her toast. Earlier, she was the only one on the green side happy to see Viserys enter the throne room, and later she smiled at Aemond's toast as if he really were complimenting the nice nephew she enjoyed dancing with. So, yeah, not on the same plane as everyone else and not interested in their petty game of thrones rivalries. 

*(I think Daemon's love for female kin probably depends on 3 questions 1. Can she ride a dragon? 2. Can I fuck her? 3. Is she related to Otto Hightower?)

Edited October 13, 2022 by Lady S.

[Oscirus]

Other than that one scene of his teaching Baela Valeryian, hes done jackshit with his daughters. No comforting them over their lost mother, no bonding period.  I find it a bit eye-opening that Rhae's asking rhaenys for permission to marry rhaenys's granddaughter to her sons when she lives with their father.

[ursula]

26 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I find it a bit eye-opening that Rhae's asking rhaenys for permission to marry rhaenys's granddaughter to her sons when she lives with their father.

In a patriarchal society, this would rarely if ever happen while the girls’s father is alive. Especially jarring when you remember that Rhaenys didn’t get as much say over her own children’s marriage. I think the writers forget that the girls are Targaryens, not Velaryons.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

I find it a bit eye-opening that Rhae's asking rhaenys for permission to marry rhaenys's granddaughter to her sons when she lives with their father.

I would view that in the enemy neutralizing prism... Vaemond was the problem... Fighting a second enemy would be unwinnable.   

[bunnyblue]

11 hours ago, Cristofle said:

Westerosi bastards are seen with suspicion and derision, and sometimes are talked to or at like they are not even human (Vaemond in this episode referred to Luke as "that").

Of all the things Vaemond said, referring to Luke as "that" may have pissed me off the most. I understand not wanting bastards to inherit lands/lordships/kingships but the way Westerosi nobility acts like all bastards are morally deficient and subhuman is infuriating. Off the top of my head, it seems like the "good" bastards (Jace, Luke, Jon, Tommen, Myrcella, Gendry) far outnumber the "evil" bastards (Ramsay, Joffrey). In conclusion: Vaemond, Alicent, Aemond, and Aegon can all suck it.

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 hours ago, Avabelle said:

Also was what Viscerys talking about the promised prince to Alicent? Or was he just babbling..

Aegon the Conqueror, the big bad Aegon who came to Westeros and conquered it with his dragons and sister-wives and the guy the current Aegons are named after, had a prophetic dream that there would be a great battle with a terrible non-human enemy looking to wipe out the living, and the living's only chance would be the Prince Who Was Promised, a person descended from the Targaryen bloodline who would rally the living and defeat the darkness. 

He kept this a secret generally that was passed down from Targaryen king to Targaryen king, which had the result of emphasizing the importance of their being a Targaryen on the throne and keeping the bloodline going. 

Viserys told Rhae this secret an episode or two back. And in this episode, while on his deathbed, he thought that Ali was Rhae and started to remind her about all the Prince Who Was Promised stuff. But since Ali never heard any of it before, when she heard about Aegon, she interpreted it as being about her son Aegon rather than Aegon the Conqueror. Thus she has been given a green light, if you'll excuse the pun, to make a claim for the throne on behalf of Aegon because the King among his last words seemed to her to be supporting the importance of Aegon becoming king.

17 minutes ago, bunnyblue said:

Of all the things Vaemond said, referring to Luke as "that" may have pissed me off the most. I understand not wanting bastards to inherit lands/lordships/kingships but the way Westerosi nobility acts like all bastards are morally deficient and subhuman is infuriating. Off the top of my head, it seems like the "good" bastards (Jace, Luke, Jon, Tommen, Myrcella, Gendry) far outnumber the "evil" bastards (Ramsay, Joffrey). In conclusion: Vaemond, Alicent, Aemond, and Aegon can all suck it.

Technically, Jon isn't really a bastard. 

And yes, legitimate born people can be more evil than any bastard dreamed of. 

[magdalene]

10 minutes ago, bunnyblue said:

Of all the things Vaemond said, referring to Luke as "that" may have pissed me off the most. I understand not wanting bastards to inherit lands/lordships/kingships but the way Westerosi nobility acts like all bastards are morally deficient and subhuman is infuriating. Off the top of my head, it seems like the "good" bastards (Jace, Luke, Jon, Tommen, Myrcella, Gendry) far outnumber the "evil" bastards (Ramsay, Joffrey). In conclusion: Vaemond, Alicent, Aemond, and Aegon can all suck it.

I automatically always root for "bastards" because they are a classic underdog. On GOT I disliked Ned's  wife because she treated Jon like crap. GRRM clearly does not want us to root for AegonII  but wants us to feel sympathy for Luke and Jace.

Some of the most interesting figures in history were born on the "wrong side of the blanket" - like William the Conqueror for example.

There is no moral inferiority in "bastards" , there is however moral inferiority in people who think of "bastards" as "less".

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, Scaeva said:

of course she would never allow her son to face punishment for it

There was no chance that Aegon could be punished because (a) there was no proof but the servant girl's words and (b) in that kind of society a master had a right to lay with all women, willing or unwilling, save the ones whose family was powerful enough. 

The latter means also that as a prince Aegon has plenty willing women to choose in the court (plus brothels), so it's not sex he wants but he evidently enjoys violence. 

[bunnyblue]

3 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Yeah, there's no way that's his real age. He started on the The Last Kingdom over 5 years ago and he definitely did not look like a teenager then either. Neither imdb nor wiki gives a birthdate for him. And I would trust those sites more than internet tabloids I've never heard of. 

Yeah, I'm not buying that Ewan Mitchell is only 20 years old. I don't think anyone knows because 1) it's not listed on his Wiki page or IMDB, and 2) I've seen on here and Reddit fans state with confidence that he's 20 and other say he's 22. To me, dude looks mid-20s at the least.

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, MrsR said:

the crown can pass through a woman and to a woman 

Not quite. The grandson of the third son of Edward III, Henry IV, rebelled against Richard II and took the crown from him, although the York line could trace their descent not only from the fourth son of Edward III but also from the second son via the female line. 

Also Henry VII became a king after defeating Richard III although his mother Margaret Beaufort was still alive. As the sons of Edward IV were dead, his eldest daughter Elizabeth would have been legally the true heir, after the stain of bastardy that Richard had used to usurp the crown was removed.

It was only after Edward VI died that that the woman's right to rule was established because there were only female claimants (his half-sisters Mary and Elizabeth who both had been declared bastards due their mothers' marriage being declared invalid but named later as heirs both by Parliament and Henry VIII's will, and the descendants of Henry VIII's older sister Margaret and younger sister Mary). Even then Edward attempted to surpass primogenture by choosing Jane Grey (even when her mother was alive!) and claim his right, even though he wasn't even of age, to choose his heir. Even if Jane Grey was supported by the council, as a eldest daughter of Henry Mary I had more support in the country.  

[Cristofle]

5 hours ago, ursula said:

In a patriarchal society, this would rarely if ever happen while the girls’s father is alive. Especially jarring when you remember that Rhaenys didn’t get as much say over her own children’s marriage. I think the writers forget that the girls are Targaryens, not Velaryons.

I think going to Rhaenys with this was probably Rhaenyra's way of trying to make Rhaenys feel included and respected because she needs her as an ally particularly with Corlys severely injured and possibly dying, not that she thinks she actually NEEDS to ask Rhaenys to marry Jace and Luke to Baela and Rhaena, given that she's married to the girls' father. In an episode where little that Rhaenyra has been doing seemed strategic, lol, having sent Baela to be with Rhaenys was pretty smart on the part of Daemon and Rhaenyra, in part to appease her and in part because they had a source on the inside, which proved valuable since it was Baela in the beginning who wrote to Daemon to warn him about what was happening and what Vaemond was trying to do.

[Pestilentia]

If that moment where the crown fell was indeed improvised/unscripted then I nominate it for the best on-screen improvisation ever- it made that moment.

Minus the crown falling it would have been a tender scene, sure- Daemon helping Viserys get to the throne without collapsing. But Daemon picking it up and replacing it on Viserys head was so utterly tender and loving that it elevated the entire scene to a remarkable degree- it gave it gravitas. It said everything about the relationship between the two and I just found it remarkably touching. I thank the old gods and the new that everyone involved on set managed to keep the scene rolling and use it in the final cut.

It's so remarkable that I kinda sorta think it couldn't have possibly been improvised, but if the actors say it is so then who am I to say. At any rate it was one of the best television moments I can recall for quite a while.

[ybrik]

42 minutes ago, Pestilentia said:

If that moment where the crown fell was indeed improvised/unscripted then I nominate it for the best on-screen improvisation ever- it made that moment.

Minus the crown falling it would have been a tender scene, sure- Daemon helping Viserys get to the throne without collapsing. But Daemon picking it up and replacing it on Viserys head was so utterly tender and loving that it elevated the entire scene to a remarkable degree- it gave it gravitas. It said everything about the relationship between the two and I just found it remarkably touching. I thank the old gods and the new that everyone involved on set managed to keep the scene rolling and use it in the final cut.

It's so remarkable that I kinda sorta think it couldn't have possibly been improvised, but if the actors say it is so then who am I to say. At any rate it was one of the best television moments I can recall for quite a while.

Definitely agree with this. In a previous post, I mentioned a similar thought about their relationship. But to expand on it, this moment really defined that Viserys was very much right when he said in episode one that Daemon didn’t want to be king. Or more to the point, he didn’t want to be king if it meant having to kill Viserys like the council was afraid. Daemon’s feelings are classic little brother. Daemon wanted to be the Hand because it meant that Viserys trusted him to have his back and when he really needed help Viserys would turn to him. After Aemma and baby’s death, at the funeral he pushes Rhaenyra to be there for Viserys. He also shows his little brother syndrome because he can’t accept help from Viserys especially after being exiled both times. He did it when Viserys offered help in the war of the Stepstones and again on Laena’s funeral when he offered him a spot back on the council. so that moment on the steps of the throne was such a touching moment and the moment that Daemon had always wanted which was for his big brother to need him and his help. 

I have seen a lot of criticism of Rhaenyra being on Dragonstone these last few years instead of in King’s Landing. There are some valid points in that she shouldn’t have stayed completely away the whole time and she needed to do a little more networking inside King’s Landing. However it should be noted that as heir, she should have been living at Dragonstone and running things there until she was called upon when Viserys dies. Dragonstone is it’s own little kingdom that needs to be run and is a good way of preparing to be King/Queen of the whole realm. It would have been better if we saw more of her at Dragonstone running things and setting up her own council there as preparation.

[Cristofle]

20 minutes ago, ybrik said:

Dragonstone is it’s own little kingdom that needs to be run and is a good way of preparing to be King/Queen of the whole realm. It would have been better if we saw more of her at Dragonstone running things and setting up her own council there as preparation.

Yeah, I don't think the show has done a good job of highlighting that Rhaenyra is Princess of Dragonstone. Especially because Dragonstone was basically abandoned for so much of GoT, it's hard to see it as another kind of Winterfell and there are things she is supposed to do like the Starks did whenever one was Lord or Lady of Winterfell. She was still Princess of Dragonstone and theoretically was running it from Kings Landing in the sixth episode (which also probably confused the viewers - Rhaenyra likely would have been called by Viserys to run Dragonstone once she married and became of age). 

[jeansheridan]

22 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

When he comes into King's Landing, there are no other Velaryons with him.

This is a good point but I also think the production has felt very small concerning the broader society. Only the hunting ep had other families actually highlighted. Even the first ep, you just get the core family in the box at the tourney. I think COVID caused restrictions in the production. Maybe. So not having more Velaryians might have just been a covid thing. It would be cool to see the larger family. And the Martells again. And the people at the Eyre (totally going Green!). Maybe more than the Lannister twins too. Maybe more than two identifiable Kingsguard (although the older Kingsguard was nicely grumpy and badass).

[Noneofyourbusiness]

Spoilers for the resolution of the show's events and afterward:

17 hours ago, paigow said:

Who is the more direct ancestor of Aegon The Unworthy? 

• Aegon The Predator
• Aegon The Toddling Terror

Spoiler

Neither is his direct ancestor, but the latter is his father's brother.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 10/12/2022 at 11:26 AM, Stardancer Supreme said:

When he comes into King's Landing, there are no other Velaryons with him. He is alone with the only other Velaryons by blood being Daemon's daughters, who are aligned with Rhaenyra and Rhaenys.

That and his being seen by Otto and Alicent in private give the impression that, unlike Rhaenyra, Daemon and Rhaenys, Vaemond came in under the radar on purpose.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

(b) in that kind of society a master had a right to lay with all women, willing or unwilling, save the ones whose family was powerful enough.

On paper, lords don't have that right in the Seven Kingdoms, but in practice it's hard to enforce. That particular right endured longer in the North than the rest of the Kingdoms, until Good Queen Alysanne had it outlawed during her and King Jaehaerys's royal progress through the North, but some houses such as the Boltons still practice it. Which is what gave us Ramsay.

[Oscirus]

3 hours ago, Cristofle said:

Yeah, I don't think the show has done a good job of highlighting that Rhaenyra is Princess of Dragonstone. Especially because Dragonstone was basically abandoned for so much of GoT, it's hard to see it as another kind of Winterfell and there are things she is supposed to do like the Starks did whenever one was Lord or Lady of Winterfell. She was still Princess of Dragonstone and theoretically was running it from Kings Landing in the sixth episode (which also probably confused the viewers - Rhaenyra likely would have been called by Viserys to run Dragonstone once she married and became of age). 

Thats another problem with the writing right there. The show briefly goes over this but without the necessary book knowledge, one would think that this show basically implies that she went there cuz she didnt want to be bothered by the political bullshit.  Also, not knowing  the going ons in kings landing is unacceptable for the heir. Even if Alicent and Otto were determined to keep them in the dark, either she shouldve had connections or Damon shouldve used his gold cloak connections to learn things.

Honestly, the more I go through this show the more I see there are no good choices for king/queen. Just lesser evil choices. I hope whoever wins out at the end has a helluva hand, cuz they're gonna need it.

[LanceM]

3 hours ago, Cristofle said:

Yeah, I don't think the show has done a good job of highlighting that Rhaenyra is Princess of Dragonstone. Especially because Dragonstone was basically abandoned for so much of GoT, it's hard to see it as another kind of Winterfell and there are things she is supposed to do like the Starks did whenever one was Lord or Lady of Winterfell. She was still Princess of Dragonstone and theoretically was running it from Kings Landing in the sixth episode (which also probably confused the viewers - Rhaenyra likely would have been called by Viserys to run Dragonstone once she married and became of age). 

Not only that but she was shown to be a member of the small council in episode 5 and in episode 6, meaning given the time jump she had been helping to govern the realm for atleast 10 years. So she does have experience in that regard.

[go4luca]

8 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

Yeah, I'm not buying that Ewan Mitchell is only 20 years old. I don't think anyone knows because 1) it's not listed on his Wiki page or IMDB, and 2) I've seen on here and Reddit fans state with confidence that he's 20 and other say he's 22. To me, dude looks mid-20s at the least.

Depending where you look, Ewan's age seems to be a mystery.

Quote

An incredibly private person, Mitchell has opted out of social media altogether, and rarely chats to the press. Even his birth date remains a mystery in the world of the internet. And his co-stars have definitely noticed how much of a low profile Mitchell prefers to keep. On The Official Last Kingdom Podcast, Scottish actor Mark Rowley called Mitchell “mysterious.”

The above from this Bustle article.

Not sure of the veracity of this article Ewan Mitchell Biography, Age, Height, Weight, Wiki which lists Ewan's age as 28.  Now that's an age I could believe.

[ChicksDigScars]

On 10/11/2022 at 2:45 PM, Brn2bwild said:

He made a statement to the effect of: "Wasn't it funny how my father was perfectly fine as heir and Hand to the King, and then suddenly he was dead, and you, an unimportant member of my grandfather's court, rose to be Hand?"  I'd have to rewatch to recall the exact words.

Regardless, it was a pretty intense and emphatic dismissal by Viserys and I don't see him, even in a weakened state, welcoming Otto back.

Wasn't that the scene where he banished Otto from the castle? Also accusing him of carefully calculating his daughter's sucking up to Viserys, himself. The episode where Otto tells Viserys about Rhaenyra and Daemon's after hours pub crawl?

Trevor Noah made a joke about HOTD last night in his monologue. About needing subtitles because these fools name their children with such like sounding names. Basically what we've made fun of here. And yeah, I watch Sunday's episodes more than once, with the closed captioning on, to make sure I'm catching everything. And I don't consider myself stupid for it, either. Just obsessive. Heh.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

I found a similar 'celebrity facts accumulated by an algorithm' article but it gave his date of birth as March 12, 2002, making him 20. But another one with the same birth year claims being born in 2002 makes him 22, which is mathematically wrong. Yet another says March 12, 2022, making him seven months old, lol.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[proserpina65]

6 minutes ago, go4luca said:

Depending where you look, Ewan's age seems to be a mystery.

The above from this Bustle article.

Not sure of the veracity of this article Ewan Mitchell Biography, Age, Height, Weight, Wiki which lists Ewan's age as 28.  Now that's an age I could believe.

I could buy maybe 23/24, in that matured early kind of way.  Hell, I went to school with a guy who could grow a mustache in middle school.  But 20 is pushing it.

[The Kings Foot]

5 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

If that moment where the crown fell was indeed improvised/unscripted then I nominate it for the best on-screen improvisation ever- it made that moment.

Minus the crown falling it would have been a tender scene, sure- Daemon helping Viserys get to the throne without collapsing. But Daemon picking it up and replacing it on Viserys head was so utterly tender and loving that it elevated the entire scene to a remarkable degree- it gave it gravitas. It said everything about the relationship between the two and I just found it remarkably touching. I thank the old gods and the new that everyone involved on set managed to keep the scene rolling and use it in the final cut.

It's so remarkable that I kinda sorta think it couldn't have possibly been improvised, but if the actors say it is so then who am I to say. At any rate it was one of the best television moments I can recall for quite a while.

So the scene was both scripted and unscripted.   In rehearsals the crown  fell and Matt and Paddy kept it going.  The director realized it was great idea and so they rewrote the script and filmed it with both  the crown falling and the crown not falling.  Then in editing they went with the crown falling but also cut Daemons filmed speech  at the dinner since it was now unnecessary.

Edited October 13, 2022 by The Kings Foot

[Lady S.]

17 hours ago, paigow said:

I would view that in the enemy neutralizing prism... Vaemond was the problem... Fighting a second enemy would be unwinnable.   

Yeah, obviously they don't need her permission so much as her agreement, especially with Baela actually in her custody. Otherwise they could and should have betrothed the kids years ago. It's definitely not proof that Daemon doesn't think of himself as their father at all, if that's the thinking. A father does not need to have close relationships with his daughters to arrange their marriages. Rhaenys's word matters because she is the only one who could speak for Corlys to support or deny his choice in heir. If Corlys were actually dead, Rhaenyra would have lost one of her strongest allies and the only Velaryon adult left to pretend her sons are Velaryons. And she does still have influence as the king's cousin and the Queen Who Never Was. Whatever bitterness she may have felt about being passed over, it seems she and Viserys have always been good, probably because she knows he never wanted the throne. He had enough respect to call on her instead of hearing Rhaenyra after he interrupted her. She could well have advocated for her granddaughters' claims "to honor Laena's memory" while having enough sense to not name the boys bastards. Who knows what would have happened then? 

It's not that Daemon's a great father, just that I think absence of evidence is no proof that he doesn't care whether they live or die. There were posts last week suggesting Rhaenyra could just kill off the girls while married to their father, instead of the obvious and simple solution of these betrothals, which I find a huge leap and a very weird line of thinking. Viserys has never once interacted with Helaena and forgets his non-Rhaenyra kids exist, but that doesn't mean he'd be indifferent if Rhaenyra or Daemon just up and murdered Helaena for no reason. If we want a less softie dad example, Otto was even more indifferent than Daemon after the kidfight last week, and his grandson was the most injured party. 

(Sidenote: While Baela being fostered on Driftmark has a political utility of having eyes and ears in the Velaryon court, they could have had even two sets of eyes and ears. I'm sure Rhaenys would have gladly claimed both girls, but Daemon/Rhaenyra chose to keep one. Either out of affection or not wanting to give too much to Rhaenys, it shows that Rhaena has some value to them and is not seen as a complete non-Targ non-entity.)

8 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

Wasn't that the scene where he banished Otto from the castle? Also accusing him of carefully calculating his daughter's sucking up to Viserys, himself. The episode where Otto tells Viserys about Rhaenyra and Daemon's after hours pub crawl?

Yeah, I did wonder whether we were meant to think Otto poisoned his way into the job. But the scene ended with Viserys saying he had been a faithful servant in the past and the realm owed him a great debt, which is very polite for a guy you think murdered your father. So I guess Vizzy's point was just to remind Otto that he was a nobody before his rapid rise and his had quickly grown way too big for his britches, as we say. So if NotBabyBaelon was poisoned, I guess Viserys remained blind to that as with so much else. (Trying to translate pseudo-medieval lingo, I guess a "burst belly" could be appendicitis?) I do think we could have used some reaction from Viserys to Otto's return, but I think it can just be put down to familiarity and apathy. Alicent had already all but taken charge of the council in ep 6, and Viserys only stands up to her when she tried to get his grandson's eye cut out or have all 3 of Rhaenyra's eldest boys legally declared bastards, as she nearly did this ep. The post-time-jump Viserys was not the same man who fired Otto in ep 4, and I don't just mean physically. Feels like he was already very tuned out even before he was confined to sickbed and doped up most of the time.

[Athena5217]

10 hours ago, go4luca said:

Not sure of the veracity of this article Ewan Mitchell Biography, Age, Height, Weight, Wiki which lists Ewan's age as 28.  Now that's an age I could believe.

That article had A LOT of very specific information, including his shoe size, waist size, and biceps size. It seems too detailed to be true for an actor who doesn’t have a social media presence. Also, it said his shoe size was 16.5 US. That is huge, and seems implausible for someone under 6 feet. My husband’s shoe size is 10.

[MrsR]

20 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Not quite. The grandson of the third son of Edward III, Henry IV, rebelled against Richard II and took the crown from him, although the York line could trace their descent not only from the fourth son of Edward III but also from the second son via the female line. 

Also Henry VII became a king after defeating Richard III although his mother Margaret Beaufort was still alive. As the sons of Edward IV were dead, his eldest daughter Elizabeth would have been legally the true heir, after the stain of bastardy that Richard had used to usurp the crown was removed.

I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of this.

Henry Bolingbroke made his play for the throne as the only way to hang on to his fathers land and legacy. Otherwise he would be a beggar in Europe until the end of his days. Richard II's rightful heir was a child without means to overthrow a tyrant. Everyone acknowledged the childs' rightful claim, (through a female line) which is why Henry kept him tightly contained at court.  This was a case of might makes right, not a bogus claim of inheritance. Tyrant had to go but the barons didn't want another child king, poof Henry IV.

Richard III, now that was a bit of a bogus claim,  but it was still based on descent from the  female line. Richard Duke of York and his son Edward VI both received baronial support because they were legally in line for the throne thru that female line. So yes the Plantagenets did believe in royal inheritance through the female line. 

Now Margaret Beaufort never made a claim because she saw her son and his marriage to Elizabeth Plantagenet as the much much smarter move. And she had that letter of patent about her line not being included in the line of succession, hanging over her head. as did her son

Even at the time of her marriage, Elizabeth could not be completely considered the rightful claimant because her brothers deaths could not be confirmed. Henry VII was another 'might makes right' situation made more palatable by folding a more solid female claimant into the genetic mix. 

Poof, the Tudors, who gave us two Queens.

Edited October 14, 2022 by MrsR

[Oscirus]

3 hours ago, Lady S. said:

It's not that Daemon's a great father, just that I think absence of evidence is no proof that he doesn't care whether they live or die. There were posts last week suggesting Rhaenyra could just kill off the girls while married to their father, instead of the obvious and simple solution of these betrothals, which I find a huge leap and a very weird line of thinking. Viserys has never once interacted with Helaena and forgets his non-Rhaenyra kids exist, but that doesn't mean he'd be indifferent if Rhaenyra or Daemon just up and murdered Helaena for no reason. If we want a less softie dad example, Otto was even more indifferent than Daemon after the kidfight last week, and his grandson was the most injured party. 

(Sidenote: While Baela being fostered on Driftmark has a political utility of having eyes and ears in the Velaryon court, they could have had even two sets of eyes and ears. I'm sure Rhaenys would have gladly claimed both girls, but Daemon/Rhaenyra chose to keep one. Either out of affection or not wanting to give too much to Rhaenys, it shows that Rhaena has some value to them and is not seen as a complete non-Targ non-entity.)

One of the boys performed surgery on his sons face and viserys didnt give a fuck.  He was more worried about the fact that people were talking shit about his grandkids. Otto's a piece of shit who's looking ahead to war, what's  viserys's excuse?

The fact that the only thing hes been shown to do with either daughter is teach one valeryian tells me that he doesnt give a shit about either one other than what they can do for him politically. Alicent 's considered the worst mother on the show and not even shes been that absent in her kids lives.

I imagine that they had no choice in regards to Baela since it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that they killed Rhaenys's kid and likely had to try to make it up to her somehow. Since Baela was the oldest she was the one eligible for training and future rhaenys plots (which vaemond screwed up).

[go4luca]

2 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

That article had A LOT of very specific information, including his shoe size, waist size, and biceps size. It seems too detailed to be true for an actor who doesn’t have a social media presence. Also, it said his shoe size was 16.5 US. That is huge, and seems implausible for someone under 6 feet. My husband’s shoe size is 10.

16.5?  Yeah I missed that.  Sasquatch much? LMAO.

In various places I’ve seen his age listed as 20, 22 & 28.  No way am I buying 20.  Even if it is somehow true.

[yellowfred]

On 10/12/2022 at 2:24 PM, Scaeva said:

Alicent spared the servant and paid her because the sympathy for her is genuine, as is the anger she feels toward her own son's monstrous behavior. Maybe on some level the payment was also intented to assuage her own guilt, since of course she would never allow her son to face punishment for it and she is ultimately enabling him in order to secure her own family's position, if not it's survival.

Yeah, I kind of read that scene as her having a genuine reaction to what her son has done, but also she still knows how the world works.  She's not telling her anything she doesn't believe is completely true, and also in Dyana's (and Alicent's and everyone else's) best interest to keep in mind.  I think Alicent's general philosophy is that she doesn't make the rules of the world they're living in, she just knows them and follows them and (when necessary) enforces them.  She's always been a little bit fatalistic like that. 

Speaking of which, that's part of why I really didn't like that final scene, with Viserys talking about the prophesy and Alicent misunderstanding it.  Like, I feel like it would be more interesting if it was just Alicent's decision, rather than what she thinks Viserys wanted.  Like, if he thought he was talking to Rhaenyra and called her his only child again, I could definitely see that being enough to push Alicent through any indecision she might be feeling.  I feel like, between Aegon being horrible and Rhaenyra reminding her of why they were friends before, Alicent had a genuine moment of rethinking the path they've been on all this time.  It was never really gonna last, but I wish the thing that put her back on that path was more fully her own decision, rather than a miscommunication. 

Also, as a side note, I still say the idea of the secret prophesy is dumb, and this just reinforces it.  Regardless of what happened this episode, the Targaryens would have to be the first royal family ever (in any universe) to have actual proof (well, "proof") that they are ruling because of divine providence and then choose, deliberately, to keep it to themselves.  Now, on top of that, it might have avoided this whole conflict, because Alicent would have known what he was referring to.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, MrsR said:

So yes the Plantagenets did believe in royal inheritance through the female line. 

That wasn't what I talked about but whether a woman could *rule* on her own.

Henry VIII doubted it and not only fight to get his marriage with Catherine of Aragon dissolved but also made her daughter Mary a bastard although the marriage was made in "good faith" and according the Canonical law she was true-born. But when Henry's only son Edward VI died without issue, it was choice between the Henry's two unmarried "bastard" daughters and sisters's female descendants.  

The French line to exclude the female line from succession made sense because (a) it excluded foreign *men* to get the French crown via their ancestors and (b) the late king's widow, daughter or aunt could act as regent for a minor king and there was no doubt that the latters had aim to usurp the crown. The precondidition was that if the French king had no son, there was a brother, nephew or cousin to succeed him.

[Roseanna]

On 10/12/2022 at 10:20 PM, Cristofle said:

Alicent giving the girls moon tea really isn't that surprising in Westerosi terms - I'm not surprised she doesn't want a bajillion Aegon bastards running across the place. It's entirely possible/likely she hasn't caught them all, heh, but as we've seen so often - Westerosi bastards are seen with suspicion and derision, and sometimes are talked to or at like they are not even human (Vaemond in this episode referred to Luke as "that"). Alicent clearly does not approve of bastards being born.

That's odd because irl it was quite normal for a noble man to have bastards and if he was decent, he took care of them (which made sense because they became faithful soldiers or like). Their only disadvantage was that they couldn't inherit, but while their father lived, he could give them land and marry them well.

[MrsR]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

But when Henry's only son Edward VI died without issue, it was choice between the Henry's two unmarried "bastard" daughters and sisters's female descendants.  

Pfft. Mary and Elizabeth were made bastards and unmade many times over. Henry made his  courtiers mad with how many times he changed his mind.

Still ended up with two queens.

[magdalene]

12 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

That article had A LOT of very specific information, including his shoe size, waist size, and biceps size. It seems too detailed to be true for an actor who doesn’t have a social media presence. Also, it said his shoe size was 16.5 US. That is huge, and seems implausible for someone under 6 feet. My husband’s shoe size is 10.

Smiles. Since the actor won't give out any personal information they are just making this stuff up. As for his age - he is young enough that he considered Sean Bean a mentor on a project they were both in. But old enough to have quite a bit of experience and obviously training.

[paigow]

3 hours ago, magdalene said:

he is young enough that he considered Sean Bean a mentor 

Aemond should have a glorious death then... 

ETA: The only shows I remember him surviving are all those Sharpe TV series, National Treasure and Ronin  [De Niro]

Edited October 14, 2022 by paigow

[ursula]

On 10/13/2022 at 10:00 AM, Noneofyourbusiness said:

On paper, lords don't have that right in the Seven Kingdoms, but in practice it's hard to enforce. That particular right endured longer in the North than the rest of the Kingdoms, until Good Queen Alysanne had it outlawed during her and King Jaehaerys's royal progress through the North, but some houses such as the Boltons still practice it. Which is what gave us Ramsay.

It’s kind of ironic how the North is framed as the “good part” of Westeros but they clung onto this culture of rape longer than everywhere else. A culture that apparently didn’t end even after it was clearly criminalized.

21 hours ago, Lady S. said:

it shows that Rhaena has some value to them and is not seen as a complete non-Targ non-entity.

Rhaena (and her sister) are Targaryens. 

[magdalene]

I am curious about something - is there anybody here who was completely unspoiled about this show before it started - no foreknowledge of anything, no trailers exposure, nothing. Did this show go into the direction you thought it would after watching the first couple of episodes?  Were you totally surprised where we have ended up? Somewhat surprised?  Or did you predict everything?

[paigow]

3 hours ago, ursula said:

It’s kind of ironic how the North is framed as the “good part” of Westeros

Maybe the wealth disparity was less obvious there. The Starks were not extravagant and the other Northern Lords seemed to mirror that. Pretty sure nothing like Flea Bottom was outside Winterfell.  

[ursula]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

Maybe the wealth disparity was less obvious there. The Starks were not extravagant and the other Northern Lords seemed to mirror that. Pretty sure nothing like Flea Bottom was outside Winterfell.  

I don’t follow this logic. Are you saying that it was ok for the Northern Lords to practise cultural rape because they were relatively poor?

[Oscirus]

Boltons were able to do the things they did cuz prior to ramsey arriving on the scene, Bolton was able to hide that stuff. Mostly cuz the starks are stupid

Edited October 15, 2022 by Oscirus

[ybrik]

I think it is also important to the remember that the North is basically the size of the rest of the continent so yes the practice last longer there but in parts of the north. You would have the Umbers who are the farthest northern family, the mountain clans, the Boltons, and Skagos. These were territories in the North that were not as easy to keep an eye on for Starks either due distance or deception. The rest of the North seemed to have stopped it with the rest of Westeros when Alysanne outlawed it. 

Of course it is interesting and relevant to the show in that the Targs especially on Dragonstone took advantage of the right of first night as much if not more then any other Lords/Kings. So as mentioned by others in previous posts, if Rhaenyra wanted to take a lover and get pregnant she couldn’t find one with more Targ like features. 

[paigow]

2 hours ago, ursula said:

I don’t follow this logic. Are you saying that it was ok for the Northern Lords to practise cultural rape because they were relatively poor?

Original issue was why the North was perceived as good. Not a referendum on rape.

[Oscirus]

The targs are setting up Luke for failure. Knowing that he's slated to take over driftmark, they dont have him in driftmark or on the ships?  They're going to fuck him up if he goes over there and even pretends like he's in charge cuz of his supposed name.

[Meredith Quill]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

The targs are setting up Luke for failure. Knowing that he's slated to take over driftmark, they dont have him in driftmark or on the ships?  They're going to fuck him up if he goes over there and even pretends like he's in charge cuz of his supposed name.

He's young, there's plenty of time yet. Plus Corlys isn't even actually dead so... not sure why this should be an issue at this moment in time.