S01.E06: The Princess And The Queen

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

I don't buy that Alicent is objecting to Rhaenyra or her sons due to religion or morals.  Not once has she brought that up as a reason she's against them.  It's all been about getting her son on the throne.  And she's grabbing anything she can to do so.  So she's bringing up bastard issues to aid in her cause which is making her son king.  If she didn't hate Rhaenyra, nor if she didn't want the power of her son being king, she wouldn't be on such a rampage, imo.  

Regarding her reaction to what Larys did.  Really?  What did she think he'd do? talk to them nicely?  Get real.  Yes, she acted shocked and appalled but that just makes her look incredibly stupid,  Not naïve - just plain stupid. 

So in the end, she'd rather ally herself with someone that sets criminals free and kills his own family, than someone that is sexually inappropriate/unladylike.  Crazy morals there - being a "slut" is worse than murderer - a kinslyaer on top of it.  Yeah, this is all about morals and religion and not just power.  

Alicent explicitly told Aemon that it's Aemon or it's Rhae, and that she will basically have to kill him if she wants to take the throne. That is not necessarily wanting the throne out of a lust for power, but out of a recognition that there is no way in her mind that he is safe unless he is on the throne. And that as much as anything explains why she is so deadset against Rhae.

So that IMO is at least about morals and religion.

Call Ali stupid, but nothing happened in her talk with Larys to indicate to a normal person he was thinking about murdering his family, or that he would potentially claim he did it to try and clear the way for Otto to get to be hand again. With the benefit of hindsight, plus with us being genre-savvy, it's easy for us viewers to know that he was capable of anything. But I don't think there was any text or subtext in that conversation that would suggest Larys was going to necessarily do anything to facilitate bringing Otto back to court, let alone committing multiple murder of his own family and freeing various serious criminals to do so.

[Cristofle]

8 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

That Rhaenyra suggested marriage would make most non-Targaryens a little grossed out.

Generally in Westeros, incest is considered to be siblings or parent/child. That's what really sets the Targaryens apart, that they are notorious for wedding siblings together. Aunts or uncles to nephews or nieces is less weird, and cousins is normal. Helaena is Jace's...half-aunt, I guess. And they're relatively close in age. It probably wouldn't be considered that gross to Westeros, except Alicent is aware that Jace is a bastard. It probably still wasn't the smartest move in the "game of thrones", so to speak, that Alicent has ever made, but honestly, I think she was more bothered by the bastard thing and her ongoing resentment of Rhaenyra/desire for her own son on the throne, not Jace. 

[Roseanna]

35 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Corlys doesnt strike me as someone who would be cool with having his lifework inherited by people who arent his heirs. 

I agree. It's difficult to understand that Rhaena hasn't understood that by giving birth to sons not begotten by Laenor she will hardly get the support of Daemon and Rhaenys, although getting that support was just the reason why the marriage with Laenor was made.   

It would be logical if Laena's true-born daughters are now apples in their grandparents' eyes and therefore they could support Daemon's claim to throne. 

On the other hand, Rhaenyra could either suggest the marriage alliance between her son and Laena and Daemon's daughter or marry the widowed Daemon herself, after divorcing her useless husband. 

[paigow]

9 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

marry the widowed Daemon herself, after divorcing her useless husband. 

Divorce [like non fatal C-Sections] probably does not exist in Westeros.

Laenor must die.. Larys: Criston; Daemon and the new Pirate King would each be willing perpetrators...

[Cristofle]

Just now, paigow said:

Divorce [like non fatal C-Sections] probably does not exist in Westeros.

I think annulment does exist for powerful people, as was shown with Rhaegar in the mothership. Viserys is the king. If he so chose, he could order anyone to dissolve the marriage between Laenor and Rhaenyra. He seemed to have no inclination to do so with Daemon's first marriage and it would be politically highly dangerous in this particular situation given the power of Laenor's family, but I doubt it's impossible. 

That said, if some ill fate did befall Laenor (not that I think Rhaenyra is planning any such thing, she seems relatively fond of him, if a little frustrated), I think Rhaenyra would be 100% down to marry Daemon, by all appearances so far, lol. That seems to have been her most-desired scenario for any possible husband all along. 

[Affogato]

1 minute ago, Cristofle said:

I think annulment does exist for powerful people, as was shown with Rhaegar in the mothership. Viserys is the king. If he so chose, he could order anyone to dissolve the marriage between Laenor and Rhaenyra. He seemed to have no inclination to do so with Daemon's first marriage and it would be politically highly dangerous in this particular situation given the power of Laenor's family, but I doubt it's impossible. 

That said, if some ill fate did befall Laenor (not that I think Rhaenyra is planning any such thing, she seems relatively fond of him, if a little frustrated), I think Rhaenyra would be 100% down to marry Daemon, by all appearances so far, lol. That seems to have been her most-desired scenario for any possible husband all along. 

Henry VIII had to start another religion to divorce someone.

[Cristofle]

Just now, Affogato said:

Henry VIII had to start another religion to divorce someone.

But Rhaegar, seemingly, did not. Despite having two children with his wife. He found someone willing to annul the marriage without ever taking it that far. And I doubt he ever would have, not on Elia's side. The fight was that he "stole" Robert Baratheon's betrothed and was accused of raping her, instead of what he did to his wife. Also, the Mad King responded by murdering the Stark lord and his heir. If Rhaegar had openly annuled his marriage to Elia and married an obviously willing Lyanna, especially if Robert hadn't been a factor, I don't think that would have started a war or any cause for a new religion - I'm not sure Dorne would have had enough allies to take it that far. 

Now, the difference in this case is how powerful Laenor's family is. It would be ill-advised, to be sure. Not impossible from what we've seen, but extremely ill-advised, lol. I don't think any new religion would have had to be started if Rhaenyra had married someone a little more obscure and from a less powerful family, though. 

[king of bullshit]

Even in only half a dozen or so odd scenes, the friendship displayed by young Rhaenyra and Alicent was so strong and sweet that their current state of affairs is still jarring. The show has not done a convincing job of depicting a natural deterioration of that friendship. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean I wouldn't have accepted that it made sense...if it made sense.

How did Alicent end up convinced that Rhaenyra would murder her kids. That's not a rhetorical question. Seriously, how? Grown up Alicent simply doesn't feel like an older version of the Alicent that was presented in the first few episodes. Maybe the older version of one from an alternate timeline.

Am I the only one that thinks Aegon's actor looks like Finn Wolfhard from Stranger Things?

…From certain angles?

[Lady S.]

50 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

That Rhaenyra suggested marriage would make most non-Targaryens a little grossed out. And the suggestion of it (which, with no book knowledge and no particular thing to point to in the show, I think was instigated by Viserys)

Viserys was half asleep during that meeting and ready to leave before Rhaenyra stopped him, so I see no evidence that he's instigating anything. Rhaenyra doesn't have to be a loving half-sister to attempt to make peace. Alicent had a point that she was acting from self-preservation and the marriage would benefit her side more. (Another reason I don't believe for a second that she'd accept the betrothal even if Jace were Laenor's seed.)

As for why Viserys didn't just overrule her in this matter, aside from him being a softie trying to avoid alienating either of his girls, there's the fact that this is still just a betrothal. An agreement concernig two kids years away from being old enough to consummate a marriage, and Viserys can't count on survivng long enough to see that happen. When Alicent says he can do what he likes when she's cold in her grave, they both know how unlikely it is that she'll be the one to die first. Viserys needs her agreement to Rhaenyra and her sons' inheritance, though obviously he's kidding himself about that as in so much else.

1 hour ago, Dac22 said:

That would be irrelevant as Luke would still be taking the place of the rightful heir and would be considered treason by the laws of the realm. 

Based on tradition, the inheritance line after Corlys would be Laenor, Luke, Joffrey, Corly's brother, and then Laena's daughters unless stated otherwise. 

It's never once been said that a lord's brothers come before his daughters outside of the Iron Throne. We know there are heiresses in the non-royal houses like Daemon's first wife, the Lady Jeyne Arryn he mentioned, Lady Mormont and Lady Waynwood and Bronn's first betrothed, who was a would-be heiress in GoT, etc. 

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Larys is my type of villain, hes not a villain for villains sake like joffrey or ramsey and hes not a simp getting revenge due to unrequited love like Little finger. This dude is ambitious to the bones, which makes him much more fun since controlled chaos is intriguing.

Honestly, I think he may be my new favorite character. I like how he acted like he did it all for her, when he benefitted most by becoming the new Lord of Harrenhal. Lyonel's death creates an opening for Otto, but if anything, Team Green needed Harwin alive and back with Rhaenyra so everyone could see the resemblance with her sons and his interest in them, to judge Rhaenyra as a whore like Ali does.

I love the cut from Ali/Cris talking about decency and honor to Aegon one-upping Roman Roy by window-jacking butt-naked. Sure, Alicent, you'd banish one of your own kids for dishonor and exile any innocent grandchildren too. Sure, this self-righteous judging is not personal at all, sure.

I don't want to defend Alicent now (I want her to keep going on the mean queen path! There are no heroes and that should make the bloodshed less sad.) but I don't think she should have expected Larys's kinslaying. The Becket vibe had to be deliberate but I miss my daddy is not quite the same as "will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?!", and pretty sure none of the guys who murdered Becket were related to him. Larys is shady but passing along useful gossip is hardly on the same scale killing off your own family and burning to death who knows how many servants besides.

[absnow54]

5 minutes ago, king of bullshit said:

How did Alicent end up convinced that Rhaenyra would murder her kids. That's not a rhetorical question. Seriously, how? Grown up Alicent simply doesn't feel like an older version of the Alicent that was presented in the first few episodes. Maybe the older version of one from an alternate timeline.

That was Otto Hightower's parting warning, that Aegon's mere existence was a threat to Rhaenyra's rule. And it made sense. Before Aegon, the Realm's only options were Rhaenyra (ew, a girl!) or Daemon, and Daemon is an erratic sociopath who burns every bridge he's offered to cross, so people were willing to bend the knee to Rhaenyra. This was all before Viserys had a legitimate male heir. Rhaenyra has never implied she would take her brother's out if they stood between her and the throne, but Alicent no longer trusts Rhaenyra or her word, because she lied about her maidenhood and then got her father fired.

2 hours ago, Dac22 said:

That would be irrelevant as Luke would still be taking the place of the rightful heir and would be considered treason by the laws of the realm. 

Based on tradition, the inheritance line after Corlys would be Laenor, Luke, Joffrey, Corly's brother, and then Laena's daughters unless stated otherwise. 

If they married Luke off to one of Daemon/Laena's daughters, then their children would have the Velayron blood that Luke was lacking, and that blood would continue to rule House Velayron. It would be a way of brushing Laenor and Rhaenyra's deception under the rug, without "unwittingly" turning them into House Strong.

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

I agree. If she isn't totally stupid, she just can't turn him.

She can either keep him as her ace of new evil acts, or she can silence him by murdering him (arranging an "accident").   

does he become the head of his house at this point? This would give him more power and also make him seem more suspicious.

[DigitalCount]

13 minutes ago, Affogato said:

does he become the head of his house at this point? This would give him more power and also make him seem more suspicious.

Larys does appear to be the "spare," so it seems he's now Lord of Harrenhal, even though he claims it's cursed.

[Lassus]

3 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Except that wasn't either brother's choice.  It was let both of them die or possibly save the child.  Neither woman was going to survive.

Viserys'ssss newborn was breach, not just plain stuck.  I guess the difference in presentation for those two births had me thinking the scenes were not the same in predicted outcome.

[Lady S.]

53 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Henry VIII had to start another religion to divorce someone.

Only because the Pope took his wife's (family's) side and refused to grant an annulment, which many other couples were granted before and after. It wasn't so much an issue of the sanctity and inviobility of marriage as popes having power over kings. Hell, doesn't the Catholic church still grant annulments on whatever pretexts so divorced Catholics can remarry, even with kids involved? The Rhaegar thing was stupid because he somehow got an annulment without Elia or the king or anyone else knowing about it. Most R+L=J believers assumed he tried to take Lyanna as a 2nd wife, the bigamy route Aegon I took and Daemon wanted to take. But I don't want to get into re-litigating stuff from the final off-book seasons of GoT.

1 hour ago, king of bullshit said:

Am I the only one that thinks Aegon's actor looks like Finn Wolfhard from Stranger Things?

…From certain angles?

That, and a bit of Tilda Swinton. I expect his face will look completely different by the time he's grown, just like Rhaenyra got a new nose and a few inches in height even though most women don't keep growing after 18. (There's a resemblance to Aemma, but not so much teen Rhaenyra.)

I did buy all 3 Laenas being the same character at different ages. However, when we are now on the 3rd set of Velaryon sibs, I renew my objection from ep 3 about Laenor 2.0 being a fully-grown man. It's weird to have Laena/Laenor both clearly younger than Rhaenyra in the pilot and then he suddenly looks older than her. The only thing I can think is they needed him and Joffrey to be the same age and didn't want Cristion killing a teen or baby-faced young man. (But then just have Laenor older from the start! Laena is the one whose age was plot relevant to Viserys refusing her.)

[dramachick]

5 hours ago, Dac22 said:

I think it goes beyond the Iron Throne though.

For example, the second oldest boy is theoretically behind Corlys and Laenor when it comes to being the head of House Velaryon through Laenor being his 'father'. 

Corlys's brother, Vaemond, might have a problem with that.

[Dac22]

2 hours ago, absnow54 said:

If they married Luke off to one of Daemon/Laena's daughters, then their children would have the Velayron blood that Luke was lacking, and that blood would continue to rule House Velayron. It would be a way of brushing Laenor and Rhaenyra's deception under the rug, without "unwittingly" turning them into House Strong.

Luke, who has no Velayron blood in him, would be the head of their house. Treason is still treason even if they tried to cover it up.

The rumor about their parentage is already pretty widespread, and since Harwin couldn't resist being a violet idiot, it has a ton of credence to it now. So sweeping it under the rug when everyone knows is a tough thing to do. 

In this scenario, Luke would still be stealing his wife's (Baela is the elder sibling, I think) birthright which will not going over well if allowed by the rest of the realm.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Dac22

[ursula]

11 hours ago, Cristofle said:

The hair color thing was always an interesting plot point in the show given that Sean Bean did not really look like the dark-haired Northern lord, nor did he look like any of his siblings that we saw. In general, these people clearly pay too much attention to hair color, lol, but there is the other glaring issue with Laenor vs Harwin in this particular depiction that makes what Rhaenyra and Harwin were doing extra dangerous. 

I actually find it lowkey irritating that no one is pointing out the obvious ways that the Strong boys don't look like Laenor, especially when their cousins - who are almost genetically identical to them - look so different. I'm not sure why the show bothered casting the Velaryons as Black (and casting Baela and Rhaena as dark-skinned with dreads when they're at least 75% white, and their own biracial mother has a looser texture), if they were going to side-step this. 

9 hours ago, paigow said:

What in-universe reason would there be for BOTH grandparents not hanging around the castle pre-birth?

I'm guessing because it's the third baby and they probably know it's not Laenor's. 

[Cristofle]

44 minutes ago, ursula said:

I actually find it lowkey irritating that no one is pointing out the obvious ways that the Strong boys don't look like Laenor, especially when their cousins - who are almost genetically identical to them - look so different. I'm not sure why the show bothered casting the Velaryons as Black (and casting Baela and Rhaena as dark-skinned with dreads when they're at least 75% white, and their own biracial mother has a looser texture), if they were going to side-step this. 

The GLARING difference between Rhaenyra's boys and Daemon's girls was certainly interesting casting. As you said, they SHOULD be virtually identical genetics wise - a Targaryen for a parent (and those parents are uncle and niece) and a Velaryon parent (those parents are siblings). But they look absolutely nothing alike on any level. 

But really, it's a little frustrating because Harwin felt like a plot point that the writers hit and then ditched after two seconds. Why would Rhaenyra, Laenor, and Harwin be so dangerously risky? I guess we'll never fully know now. Did Laena have any feelings about the boys as it stands now being the heirs over her girls when they're not Velaryon by blood and Laena knew it given that she and Daeamon talked about it? Who knows. She's dead now. 

[nikma]

Larys as a character makes no sense to me. His relationship with his family wasn't development but there is nothing that suggested that he hated his father and brother. His whole plan was very stupid and he sent people with his own symbol to do it. I mean really?

And all of that to do what? He his nothing on Alicent. There is no reason for her to feel blackmailed by what he did.

[Meredith Quill]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Call Ali stupid, but nothing happened in her talk with Larys to indicate to a normal person he was thinking about murdering his family, or that he would potentially claim he did it to try and clear the way for Otto to get to be hand again. With the benefit of hindsight, plus with us being genre-savvy, it's easy for us viewers to know that he was capable of anything. But I don't think there was any text or subtext in that conversation that would suggest Larys was going to necessarily do anything to facilitate bringing Otto back to court, let alone committing multiple murder of his own family and freeing various serious criminals to do so.

I find it difficult to believe that in a decade of having him as an ally, she would be completely, utterly and totally oblivious to exactly what he is capable of. Nah, makes zero sense, Occam's Razor and all that. And if that were true, it'd make her a 100% bona fide fool who would be better off spending her time pursuing benign hobbies than messing around in political machinations. And while I think she is many things, a fool isn't one of them.

[UnoAgain]

Does that mean for the First two she had Laenor walk the bastards in alone? 

[Lady Whistleup]

I must admit that Alicent is a new character in Westeros: a prude. People in Westeros have always been pretty blase about affairs and what not. Alicent is very prudish.

[paigow]

3 hours ago, ursula said:

I'm guessing because it's the third baby and they probably know it's not Laenor's. 

They are already dead... Corlys would still play the charade and disrupt Council Meetings

[Jaundiced Eye]

9 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

We've seen no evidence of anyone other than Dany ever being fireproof.

I got the same impression about Daemon being fireproof when Laena and Daemon were riding their dragons, and Laena ordered Vhagar to exhale a cloud of fire which Daemon then flew through.

[Oscirus]

5 hours ago, nikma said:

Larys as a character makes no sense to me. His relationship with his family wasn't development but there is nothing that suggested that he hated his father and brother. His whole plan was very stupid and he sent people with his own symbol to do it. I mean really?

And all of that to do what? He his nothing on Alicent. There is no reason for her to feel blackmailed by what he did.

Aint about blackmail, its about gaining future capital. He's banking on king Aegon. I dont think he wants anything from Alicent at the moment. 

I doubt he hates his family, they just stood in his way of getting more power.  I'll give him a break on the symbol thing cuz Id assume theyre wearing that for us the audience.

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

I find it difficult to believe that in a decade of having him as an ally, she would be completely, utterly and totally oblivious to exactly what he is capable of. Nah, makes zero sense, Occam's Razor and all that. And if that were true, it'd make her a 100% bona fide fool who would be better off spending her time pursuing benign hobbies than messing around in political machinations. And while I think she is many things, a fool isn't one of them.

Well, until we are shown differently, Larys never orchestrated a double murder or took action that would make someone reasonably suspect that he was capable of having two of his family members killed in the 10 years that happened between this episode and last. Nor did he do anything before the time jump that would suggest to a non-genre savvy person that he was super evil. 

And I actually do think from what we have seen of Ali before the time jump and now, I don't think she is particularly smart. All her life, she has been a pawn to the men around her. Daddy used her to get closer to Viserys and get his grandchildren in the line of succession. Viserys used her to get children and to fulfill his duty to remarry. 

The reaction from her after the deed was done seems to make it clear that she had no clue that Larys was capable of going to those extremes. Occam's Razor says that was a genuine reaction on her part rather than a deception. 

[Dac22]

On 9/27/2022 at 12:50 AM, RobertDeSneero said:

Everything Ser Criston said about Rhaenyra is true. 

While his word choice at the end didn't do him any favors, I do agree his assessment of Rhaenyra was pretty spot on so far. A lot of people (mostly elsewhere) just ignore it and talk about how he is the worst thing ever for pointing out the truth.

Those people, much like Rhaenyra, believe her actions should never have consequences. That she can do whatever she wants and everyone in the world needs to bend to accommodate her wishes. If that doesn't happen, then it's the other characters' fault. 

It's just hard for me to see her as the victim like so many others are telling me I should when the vast majority of her problems are the result of her own actions. I actually like her character, but she has some serious flaws and has made a bunch of bad choices. 

If she doesn't seduce her loyal and trusting confidant for a night of fun, then Criston would have remained by her side until the very end. If she doesn't lie to Alicent, going so far as to swear on the memory of her mother, then Alicent would have continued to help and support her. If she and Harwin don't decide to have bastards, then her kids wouldn't be called as such.   

That isn't to say characters like Alicent and Criston are good people, they clearly aren't by any stretch, but the only thing Rhaenyra is a victim of at the moment is the consequences of her own actions in my opinion.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Dac22

[Roseanna]

53 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Well, until we are shown differently, Larys never orchestrated a double murder or took action that would make someone reasonably suspect that he was capable of having two of his family members killed in the 10 years that happened between this episode and last. Nor did he do anything before the time jump that would suggest to a non-genre savvy person that he was super evil. 

And I actually do think from what we have seen of Ali before the time jump and now, I don't think she is particularly smart. All her life, she has been a pawn to the men around her. Daddy used her to get closer to Viserys and get his grandchildren in the line of succession. Viserys used her to get children and to fulfill his duty to remarry. 

The reaction from her after the deed was done seems to make it clear that she had no clue that Larys was capable of going to those extremes. Occam's Razor says that was a genuine reaction on her part rather than a deception. 

Alicent had no reason to pretend to be horrified because there was nobody else in the room.

I agree that she isn't particularly smart. She didn't suspect Rhaenyra's word and her father had to say to her what would happen after Viserys dies. 

So far, she hasn't done anything evil herself, nor is she a cunning schemer. She has tried to convince Viserys that Rhaenyra's sons are bastards (which is true) and when she failed which anybody with more sense could have predicted on the basis of Viserys' character, she tried the same thing again. She acted openly and failed openly.  

Although Larys' deed was horrible, this whole universe is horrible, so Alicent really needs such an ally and helper. Can she trust him? So long they have common interests. 

[ElizaD]

11 minutes ago, Dac22 said:

It's just hard for me to see her as the victim like so many others are telling me I should when the vast majority of her problems are the result of her own actions. 

If she doesn't seduce her loyal and trusting confidant for a night of fun, then Criston would have remained by her side until the very end. If she doesn't lie to Alicent, going so far as to swear on the memory of her mother, then Alicent would have continued to help and support her. If she and Harwin don't decide to have bastards, then her kids wouldn't be called as such.

Daemon gave Rhaenyra the worst possible advice with his emphasis on Targaryen superiority and fun after marriage. Viserys is a complete pushover who's unable to hold either of them back. With someone like Ned doing the parenting, the odds are that Rhaenyra wouldn't have slept with Criston (so he would remain her ally instead of becoming a strategically positioned enemy), wouldn't have needed to lie to Alicent (so she could believe that Rhaenyra's word could be trusted if she swore not to kill Aegon), and wouldn't have slept with Harwin (so that those who believe in the laws of Westerosi succession or the inability of women to rule would not have been granted massive ammo against her). Someone like grandma Olenna would have made sure that Rhaenyra's first child was either legitimate (Margaery offered to let Loras get Renly started) or fathered by a lover who could pass for Targaryen or Velaryon - then she could get to the part where she (discreetly!) screws whoever she wants to screw.

Rhaenyra is so driven by her belief in her rights that she's not doing any of the work. If she has the power of the Targaryen dragons, sure, she might get what she wants. But all the things she's not bothering to do because they're not what she wants to do (legitimate/legitimate-passing children, cultivating alliances with lords, avoiding disasters in personal relationships, doing at least the bare minimum to change the smallfolk's view of her) would still make her position stronger. She's counting only on raw power, and on the lords respecting their vows when she's not respecting any of hers. It's so frustrating and I hope that's intentional on the show's part: Rhaenyra shouldn't be denied the throne because she's a woman, but she'd be a bad ruler because of who she is as a person.

[nomodrama]

On 9/26/2022 at 3:13 PM, bluvelvet said:

Also WHAT WAS SHE THINKING, not having at least ONE Valeryon child, what she has done is treason.

Not sure what choice she had if her husband didn't want to give it more of an effort. He seems to have it pretty good, and acts as though he is perfectly happy to claim and raise children he knows are not his. He doesn't even have to suffer any consequences because everyone will just blame his wife, even when they probably very aware of his proclivities. 

It's interesting to compare her to Cersei. I seem to remember that Robert didn't really want to sleep with her either and enjoyed having many girls on the side (and producing all kinds of heirs with other people). Not sure anyone was whispering about Robert and calling it treason though. Stupid misogyny. 

[yellowfred]

Yeah, I think one of the interesting things about the conflict in this episode is that, while Alicent and Criston are more malicious, they're also not wrong. 

Rhaenyra isn't being vindictive or cruel, because she doesn't have to be.  Viserys already has no interest in confronting her.  We don't 100% know how the rest of the Velaryons reacted, but, at the very least, Laenor is firmly in her corner.  Alicent has obviously been pushing the issue, but all she has is soft power in this situation, and the main person she could influence doesn't want to hear it.  Rhaenyra doesn't have to scheme or manipulate to get what she wants, because (for the most part) she already has it.

Alicent and Criston, on the other hand, are being petty as hell, because no one wants to listen to them.  And it's not that no one else sees it (you cannot tell me that the outburst in the yard was the first time Lyonel Strong realized he might have some illegitimate grandchildren), it's that no one else really seems to care. 

To be clear, I'm not under the impression that either Alicent or Criston have pure intentions here.  I imagine their personal histories with Rhaenyra (Alicent feeling betrayed by her, Criston feeling used by her) meant that they were already looking for a reason to bring her down.  Rhaenyra just happened to give them a really good one.

Edited September 28, 2022 by yellowfred

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Only because the Pope took his wife's (family's) side and refused to grant an annulment, which many other couples were granted before and after. It wasn't so much an issue of the sanctity and inviobility of marriage as popes having power over kings. Hell, doesn't the Catholic church still grant annulments on whatever pretexts so divorced Catholics can remarry, even with kids involved? 

True. 

However, I want to add that the Catholic church had to fight for centuries to get its concept of marriage to be accepted. Before, especially kings and nobles divorced as they wanted. At that time, marriage was a treaty between families about dowry and morning gift. Without it, even after Christianity was accepted, although the couple was wed by the priest (which wasn't necessary), their children couldn't inherit.   

Therefore, I can't understand that in fantasy world that isn't Christian the divorce wasn't possible - provided that the family approved.   

[ElizaD]

46 minutes ago, nomodrama said:

It's interesting to compare her to Cersei. I seem to remember that Robert didn't really want to sleep with her either and enjoyed having many girls on the side (and producing all kinds of heirs with other people). Not sure anyone was whispering about Robert and calling it treason though. Stupid misogyny. 

Robert was having bastard children who were recognised as bastards with no legal right to inherit. It was his supposedly legitimate children with his queen who were his heirs and his brothers after that. Robert was the king and did not try to cast aside his legitimate heirs in favour of a bastard; Cersei was merely the queen consort and violated the succession by passing off her bastards as the king's legitimate heirs. He did not commit treason but she did. When a male ruler did legitimise his bastards, in the era between HOTD and GOT, it was Aegon the Unworthy and his legacy was being remembered as a contender for Worst Targaryen because messing with the succession led to a series of rebellions that took generations to die out.

It would actually have been easier for Rhaenyra, as a woman, to put a bastard on the throne - she just couldn't let people know that the child she bore was not fathered by her legal consort. And that's exactly what she failed to do, in a manner that's even more blatant on the show (people are going to be staring when Daemon's children with Laena stand next to their so-called cousins).

[NeenerNeener]

17 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

We've seen no evidence of anyone other than Dany ever being fireproof.

Yes we have...Daemon, right in this episode. Laena had her dragon blow fire at Daemon and his dragon and they flew right through it and came out unharmed.

ETA: I see Jaundiced Eye made the same point first.

Edited September 28, 2022 by NeenerNeener

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, ElizaD said:

It would actually have been easier for Rhaenyra, as a woman, to put a bastard on the throne - she just couldn't let people know that the child she bore was not fathered by her legal consort. And that's exactly what she failed to do, in a manner that's even more blatant on the show (people are going to be staring when Daemon's children with Laena stand next to their so-called cousins).

Actually it wouldn't be easier because (1) her husband wouldn't acknowledge a child, if he even suspected it was not his and after that he would at least divorce her (2) she would never be alone but by day and with her. 

We are supposed to believe, in addition to Laenor being an "understanding" husband although such men would be mercilessly mocked in public that although Rhaenyra hadn't a single ally to arrange meetings with her lover, the court wouldn't be full of rumors about the princess being alone with a man who wasn't her husband even before the birth of the eldest son. Alicent wouldn't need to do anything, Viserys would have to act in order not to be mocked. 

[Constantinople]

17 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Call Ali stupid, but nothing happened in her talk with Larys to indicate to a normal person he was thinking about murdering his family, or that he would potentially claim he did it to try and clear the way for Otto to get to be hand again. With the benefit of hindsight, plus with us being genre-savvy, it's easy for us viewers to know that he was capable of anything. But I don't think there was any text or subtext in that conversation that would suggest Larys was going to necessarily do anything to facilitate bringing Otto back to court, let alone committing multiple murder of his own family and freeing various serious criminals to do so.

11 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

I find it difficult to believe that in a decade of having him as an ally, she would be completely, utterly and totally oblivious to exactly what he is capable of. Nah, makes zero sense, Occam's Razor and all that. And if that were true, it'd make her a 100% bona fide fool who would be better off spending her time pursuing benign hobbies than messing around in political machinations. And while I think she is many things, a fool isn't one of them.

It's almost as if Alicent had no idea about all of Larys's other fathers and brothers that Larys killed in the intervening 10 years.

[Jack Shaftoe]

3 hours ago, nomodrama said:

It's interesting to compare her to Cersei. I seem to remember that Robert didn't really want to sleep with her either and enjoyed having many girls on the side (and producing all kinds of heirs with other people). Not sure anyone was whispering about Robert and calling it treason though. Stupid misogyny. 

Robert wasn't trying to pass his bastards as heirs to the throne, if he had, many of his vassals would have joined Tywin in rebellion against him because Robert would have broken the social contract, so to speak. It's not just misogyny that makes this kind of thing considered despicable in a society where lineage is paramount and marriage alliances are the main kind of alliance. Rhaenyra wants to enjoy the privileges of being a princess but is unwilling to abide by the rules of behavior that her position entails. The only reason she has gotten away with it so far is because the king as a weak willed fool and the opposition to her seems to consist of Alicent, Criston and Larys, nobody else. Needless to say, Rhaenyra would have it a lot easier if she were a man and is certainly a victim of double standards but she is also making worse for herself by not following some rules that men also need to follow (like arranged marriage or not passing your bastards as your legal children) and sometimes behaving like she comes from the 21st century and all those strange rules are something she hears for the first time, rather than something she has known all her life.

28 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

We are supposed to believe, in addition to Laenor being an "understanding" husband although such men would be mercilessly mocked in public that although Rhaenyra hadn't a single ally to arrange meetings with her lover, the court wouldn't be full of rumors about the princess being alone with a man who wasn't her husband even before the birth of the eldest son. Alicent wouldn't need to do anything, Viserys would have to act in order not to be mocked. 

Exactly. We are also supposed to believe that Larys is a brilliant plotter with many informants who is on the side of Alicent but hasn't managed to catch Rhaenyra and his brother in flagrante in 10 years. The whole thing makes everyone involved look like a clueless fool.

[Meredith Quill]

7 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Well, until we are shown differently, Larys never orchestrated a double murder or took action that would make someone reasonably suspect that he was capable of having two of his family members killed in the 10 years that happened between this episode and last. Nor did he do anything before the time jump that would suggest to a non-genre savvy person that he was super evil. 

And I actually do think from what we have seen of Ali before the time jump and now, I don't think she is particularly smart. All her life, she has been a pawn to the men around her. Daddy used her to get closer to Viserys and get his grandchildren in the line of succession. Viserys used her to get children and to fulfill his duty to remarry. 

The reaction from her after the deed was done seems to make it clear that she had no clue that Larys was capable of going to those extremes. Occam's Razor says that was a genuine reaction on her part rather than a deception. 

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

It's almost as if Alicent had no idea about all of Larys's other fathers and brothers that Larys killed in the intervening 10 years.

We don't need to see everything to be able to draw conclusions and/or inference about a situation or character. Concrete proof isn't required as we aren't in a court of law, however, what we can do is go on logic and what has been shown to make our own determinations. Alicent may not be a master strategist or cunning but she's not a complete idiot either. 

All jokes aside, I don't subscribe to the notion, and I'm certain you aren't saying, that someone must have performed the exact same (or even similar) actions previously for someone to at least suspect that they may be capable of it.  I seriously don't believe that Larys wouldn't have demonstrated his true nature of a shady/scheming/nefarious/amoral creep in the preceding decade, at least in Alicent's eyes enough for her to know he's without family loyalty and absent any conscience (gurl, do the maths). Realistically, that shit would be all but impossible to mask for ten years, to say otherwise is to wilfully handwave it. I'm not saying Alicent absolutely knew what Larys would do; I'm saying that she shouldn't have been shocked as she was about it given his character, unless she's a complete dolt.

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Alicent had no reason to pretend to be horrified because there was nobody else in the room.

So you subscribe to the 'Alicent is a complete clueless dolt' theory?

[Roseanna]

9 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

We don't need to see everything to be able to draw conclusions and/or inference about a situation or character. Concrete proof isn't required as we aren't in a court of law, however, what we can do is go on logic and what has been shown to make our own determinations. Alicent may not be a master strategist or cunning but she's not a complete idiot either. 

All jokes aside, I don't subscribe to the notion, and I'm certain you aren't saying that someone must have performed the exact same (or even similar) actions previously for someone to at least suspect that they may be capable of it.  I seriously don't believe that Larys wouldn't demonstrated his true nature of a shady/scheming/nefarious/amoral creep in the preceding decade in Alicent's eyes enough for her to know he's without family loyalty and absent any conscience. Realistically, that shit would be all but impossible to mask for ten years, to say otherwise is to wilfully handwave it. I'm not saying Alicent absolutely knew what Larys would do; I'm saying that she shouldn't have been shocked as she was about it given his character, unless she's a complete dolt.

I think one must remember the difference between audience who knows both Thomas Becket's murder, The Strangers In The Train and dozens of similar things, and Alicent who doesn't know any of them whereas whatever if anything she has learned during the ten years about Larys' real nature isn't told to us.  

Considering that Alicent has spent ten years trying to prove that Rhaenyra's children are bastards but failed miserably, she and Larys have spent these years only speaking ill of other behind their backs, but he hasn't actually done anything evil - not even arranging little "accident".

[Chicago Redshirt]

36 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

We don't need to see everything to be able to draw conclusions and/or inference about a situation or character. Concrete proof isn't required as we aren't in a court of law, however, what we can do is go on logic and what has been shown to make our own determinations. Alicent may not be a master strategist or cunning but she's not a complete idiot either. 

All jokes aside, I don't subscribe to the notion, and I'm certain you aren't saying that someone must have performed the exact same (or even similar) actions previously for someone to at least suspect that they may be capable of it.  I seriously don't believe that Larys wouldn't demonstrated his true nature of a shady/scheming/nefarious/amoral creep in the preceding decade in Alicent's eyes enough for her to know he's without family loyalty and absent any conscience. Realistically, that shit would be all but impossible to mask for ten years, to say otherwise is to wilfully handwave it. I'm not saying Alicent absolutely knew what Larys would do; I'm saying that she shouldn't have been shocked as she was about it given his character, unless she's a complete dolt.

So you subscribe to the 'Alicent is a complete clueless dolt' theory?

Obviously, people can and will make their own conclusions and no one is asking for exacting proof. But the better conclusions are at least somewhat founded on what is shown and don't contradict it.

What was shown was Larys mentioning to Ali (and the viewers) that he kept her abreast of goings-on in court but she had info that he didn't, Ali explaining that Lyonel tried to quit, Larys complaining that Lyonel always had his honor as a millstone and then noting that she said attempted. Ali explains that Viserys wouldn't let him. Larys correctly deduces that Lyonel didn't confess what Harwin had done. Eventually Ali complains that she's said that her father isn't here and says "Is there no one in King's Landing to take my side?"

We don't know from the show how tight the relationship between Ali and Larys was/is, how long it lasted, what it consisted of, etc. etc. 

It could be that it was Larys who ratted out his brother's affair before he and Rhae had kid number one. It could be that he sought Ali out 10 years ago. It could be that what was shown was a relatively recent development. It could be that he just was providing information to her in the past and actively withheld information about his own activities. It could be that he was actively scheming with her. It could be that he was actively doing immoral acts up to and including murder with her knowledge and consent. It could be that he had done tons of grey things before that Ali was aware of, but nothing like this. I mean, it's one thing to arrange for random obstacles to power to be killed. It is another to murder one's own family. It could be that this is the first time Larys had done anything outwardly evil at all. 

I assume that Larys actually can mask his evil to other people in general, because otherwise the other people would not be susceptible to their scheming and would probably kill him on sight if his evil were as obvious to them as it is to us as genre-savvy folks.

It doesn't seem to me that Ali is actually all that close to Larys, when she essentially complains to him that she has no actual allies in King's Landing, rather than "you're the only one in King's Landing to take my side."

This doesn't seem to me to be the sort of "will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest" moment where Ali was implicitly asking for someone to create an opening in the Hand position. And when Ali complains to Larys after learning what he did, it does not seem a case of the lady protesting too much. 

There are more options for Ali than "clueless dolt" or co-conspirator of Larys who is making a pretense of being shocked, shocked that there was family murder in that establishment. I take her being shaken at the revelation at face value that she did not anticipate he would go to such lengths and that she is trying to grapple with the notion that she might be actually complicit or might be seen as such even though this wasn't what she wanted. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[Oscirus]

Dany being fireproof is a d and d only thing. Her walking into the fire in the first season was supposed to be a one-time miracle. Even George himself said she wasn't fireproof but yes that little dragon stunt didn't last night didn't help matters. Targs might be resilient but they sure as heck can burn up just like anybody else.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Oscirus

[Meredith Quill]

My conclusions are absolutely based on what has been shown and then extrapolated from that.

1. We know that Larys has been allied to Alicent for ten years.

2. We know he is without morals or conscience.

3. We know Alicent and he are, in fact, fairly close - as demonstrated by them having dinner together privately. Which, judging by his "I started without you" remark, logic would dictate that that isn't the first time by any stretch of the imagination, but rather a regular, if not common, occurrence given his easy familiarity/lack of formality with the queen.

4. It isn't a leap to think that given all the above, that Alicent would have at least some understanding of who she has allied herself with these past ten years.

So I stand by the idea that she either knows to a great extent who she's dealing with or is a total clueless fool.

51 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I take her being shaken at the revelation at face value that she did not anticipate he would go to such lengths and that she is trying to grapple with the notion that she might be actually complicit or might be seen as such even though this wasn't what she wanted. 

If this were true, her next conscience-driven, 'I play by the rules' move should be to, at minimum, distance herself - if not completely for fear of repercussions but at least as much as possible - from this heinous murderer to avoid any future unintentional complicity in his actions then. Colour me doubtful.

[Lassus]

18 hours ago, king of bullshit said:

Even in only half a dozen or so odd scenes, the friendship displayed by young Rhaenyra and Alicent was so strong and sweet that their current state of affairs is still jarring lazy.

Fixed

[LanceM]

1 hour ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Exactly. We are also supposed to believe that Larys is a brilliant plotter with many informants who is on the side of Alicent but hasn't managed to catch Rhaenyra and his brother in flagrante in 10 years. The whole thing makes everyone involved look like a clueless fool.

I am not sure we are supposed to believe this at all. I think we are supposed to believe that he knows they are Harwin’s kids and has all this time but can’t really do anything about it as accusing the princess of adultery will basically lead to his execution given the fact that the King is standing by his daughter 100% even though he knows the “rumors” are true.

[Jack Shaftoe]

21 minutes ago, LanceM said:

I think we are supposed to believe that he knows they are Harwin’s kids and has all this time but can’t really do anything about it as accusing the princess of adultery will basically lead to his execution given the fact that the King is standing by his daughter 100% even though he knows the “rumors” are true.

Alicent would be doing the accusing in this scenario. You know, as she seems to have been doing all along without being executed. Or Larys and Alicent could arrange for some reputable third party to discover the adultery and report to the king. Only difference would be that the evidence would be much more convincing if there were witnesses. Even if Viserys continues to stick his head in the sand, Alicent's position would be strengthened because the claims that Rhaenyra's children are illegitimate would be more believable if they are not based only on how her children look like. See how the rumours increased when Harwin attacked Criston, and that was only circumstantial evidence.

[LanceM]

12 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Alicent would be doing the accusing in this scenario. You know, as she seems to have been doing all along without being executed. Or Larys and Alicent could arrange for some reputable third party to discover the adultery and report to the king. Only difference would be that the evidence would be much more convincing if there were witnesses. Even if Viserys continues to stick his head in the sand, Alicent's position would be strengthened because the claims that Rhaenyra's children are illegitimate would be more believable if they are not based only on how her children look like. See how the rumours increased when Harwin attacked Criston, and that was only circumstantial evidence.

I am not sure what “evidence” you think a reputable 3rd party is going to bring to the king that is going to make him admit the truth. Barring having the king witnessing the act himself he is going to keep supporting Rhaenyra. You are right though that the more people that know the truth does help Alicent, providing of course those people even care about the truth. As we saw in GOT, House Tyrell didn’t give to shots about Joffrey and Tommen’s bastard ad long as it strengthened their house.

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, SilverStormm said:

2. We know he is without morals or conscience

We only know that about Larys after he killed his father and brother. There was nothing in the show to indicate beforehand that he would do something like that.

And if Larys can mask his feelings about Lyonel and Harwin from Lyonel and Harwin, I don't see why viewers should expect Alicent to be psychic unless they've already decided they don't like her and want to confirm their pre-existing bias.

[Meredith Quill]

13 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

We only know that about Larys after he killed his father and brother. There was nothing in the show to indicate beforehand that he would do something like that.

And if Larys can mask his feelings about Lyonel and Harwin from Lyonel and Harwin, I don't see why viewers should expect Alicent to be psychic unless they've already decided they don't like her and want to confirm their pre-existing bias.

The point is - because we, the audience, now know just how amoral and without conscience Larys is - someone who's spent ten years in cahoots with him - really shouldn't be only just finding out this totally new information right now...

Alicent, apparently...🤣

"I've spent ten years around this sneaky, scheming creep doing all manner of sneaky, shady shit (unless we're going to pretend he seemed pure as driven snow until now) but I had NO IDEA, nay even an inkling he was capable of dis! Honest!"

[Jack Shaftoe]

11 minutes ago, LanceM said:

Barring having the king witnessing the act himself he is going to keep supporting Rhaenyra

We can't know that for sure. It's a lot easier to turn a blind eye when the evidence can be explained away with the genetic lottery. The previous time someone accused Rhaenyra of extramarital sex, one unnamed witness was enough to create a lot of suspicion in Viserys' mind. Maybe he won't throw Rhaenyra into prison if witnesses come forth to accuse her of adultery but depriving her of the heir status would be a very real possibility. That's why Alicent keeps harping about the affair after all.

18 minutes ago, LanceM said:

As we saw in GOT, House Tyrell didn’t give to shots about Joffrey and Tommen’s bastard ad long as it strengthened their house.

There was a civil war going on, that tends to help people forget their scruples. Rhaenyra's position as heir was tenuous to begin with even without the adultery rumours, if said rumours are widely believed, what incentive would anyone have to go against the flow and support her? People supported the Lannisters because they were rich and ruthless and it was relatively easy to dismiss the incest rumours. What does Rhaenyra have to offer to the most powerful nobles that they can't get from Alicent's faction? She has managed to alienate her husband who should be her most natural ally, lord Corlys is probably fuming about the adultery,  we have never seen her trying to get any powerful lord to support her, let alone succeed in that, etc.

[Meredith Quill]

16 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

And if Larys can mask his feelings about Lyonel and Harwin from Lyonel and Harwin, I don't see why viewers should expect Alicent to be psychic unless they've already decided they don't like her and want to confirm their pre-existing bias.

Stuff and nonsense, of course someone can hide their feelings from one set of people and not someone else, especially when they're in league with that someone else. Larys even made some snide remark about his father regarding his honour being a weight around his neck during the meal, so he wasn't behaving with any fondness, let alone loyalty there was he <-- no psychic ability needed clue right there for Alicent.

Obliquely referring to my pre-existing bias adds no weight to the debate whatsoever, I have my bias for reasons like this - particularly when I'm citing legitimate examples for said bias.