S05.E03: Border

[Whimsy]

Quote

June and Moira join a rebel outpost. As a pregnant widow, Serena tries to restore her status. Aunt Lydia questions her strict methods of dealing with Handmaids.

Original airdate 9/21/22

[Armchair Critic]

I figured Commander Lawrence wouldn't want to deal with Serena as a wife. 

I have not read the book but my guess for the ending of this is June will get Hannah out but June will end up getting killed.

[greekmom]

5 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

I figured Commander Lawrence wouldn't want to deal with Serena as a wife. 

I have not read the book but my guess for the ending of this is June will get Hannah out but June will end up getting killed.

Not a spoiler for either the book or tv show but FYI - they have really veered off course from the book. Now it's all show.

[MichaelaRae]

I knew this episode was not directed by Elisabeth Moss before the credits rolled - her face wasn't staring directly into the camera for a cumulative 5 minutes throughout the episode.

Oh, Tuello, please don't tell me you're still attracted to this evil hag after everything you know she's done.

Love that Serena's poor widdle feewings are hurt because they're kicking her out but still wondering why they didn't just keep her to make her a handmaiden later. Y'all are just letting fecund uteri go now?? 

[Redrum]

21 minutes ago, MichaelaRae said:

Y'all are just letting fecund uteri go now?? 

I mean, would you want Serena around?

[Anela]

I haven't watched yet, but if Gilead thought that Nicole belonged to them, surely they would think the same thing of Fred's child with his wife. 

[crashdown]

Not the most exciting of episodes, but one in which certain chess pieces are being moved into place. Here's what struck me:

• Serena wants so badly to BELONG somewhere, to feel comfortable and secure. Somehow, she manages to convince herself that she can feel that way in Gilead: her fantasy is that she'll marry Lawrence, who will be much more amenable to letting her have behind-the-scenes power than Fred ever was. Because Lawrence is so powerful, the other High Commanders will accept her voice. She'll be back in Gilead, safe from June, in a comfortable life, with more power and influence than ever. Unfortunately for her, it's a fantasy bordering on delusion, and it all comes crashing down on her in the end.  That bluster about how she wants a large budget and staff is just to whistle around her real fear and disappointment. She's totally alone, without any real allies and with little power.
   
• Speaking of Serena, a highlight of the episode for me was her conversation with Lawrence, in which she said she had always liked Eleanor (which seems to have been true--she was extremely compassionate to Eleanor during that awful bearing-witness-to-the-ceremony episode) and he responded that the feeling had not been mutual. Serena tells him that women don't usually like her, which certainly tracks. In my head canon for Serena, she's never had a female best friend, or even a moderately close female friend at all. If she'd had a Moira in her life, she might not be quite as willing to sell out other women for her own goals.
   
• Speaking of Moira, I have a horrible feeling that she's going to die by the end of the series and that her death will be devastating. i hope I'm wrong about that!
   
• MacKenzie is being set up as a villain to both June and Nick. He's an easy guy to hate right now!
   
• The bare bones sketch of Mayday in Canada was really interesting--these are clearly June's people, and June will end up being deep in this operation sooner or later. I'm wondering if originally it had been Emily, and not Moira, who was supposed to tell June about it and go with her to them: Emily makes a lot more sense than Moira in that role. If so, probably by the end of the season Emily was supposed to decide to go deep undercover in Gilead. That would put her in Gilead at the beginning of season six, which is where she theoretically is right now. That way, whatever narrative purpose they had for Emily in Gilead will still be possible if they can get Alexis back, but it would have seemed a lot less abrupt and more organic if she'd gone through learning about Canadian Mayday with June.
   
• I try not to get sucked into these Doomed Romance convos between Nick and June, but this was a particularly nice one. Their romance is really pretty easy because it never needs to move beyond conversations, longing glances, and sighs--they both have other lives and can't possibly be together. It's nice love story junk food in the show, but it's not more than that.
   
• Nick's wife continues to delight. ("It was love at third mutually-attended gala." Hee!)
   
• I'm trying not to think too hard about how "Wife School" might differ from a school of the domestic arts. I hope they don't take sex education to a horrific new level in Gilead!

[tennisgurl]

Of course Jeanene isn't actually going to die, every main character is covered from head to toe in plot armor. This episode was alright, clearly place setting, boring but at least we were spared a shot of June's face so close that you can count her nose hairs. Serena really is delusional if she thought that she would be welcomed back to Gilead with open arms after Fred, she should count herself lucky that they just kicked her out and didn't do something way worse to her. But, you know. Plot armor. That has always been a thing with Serena, she is desperate to be important and very clearly thinks that she's better than everyone else, and that leads her to overestimate her own importance. She helped to create Gilead and then was all shocked that this nation that exists to oppress women wont let her take her seat at the table, because in her head, she's better than other woman. 

I am really intrigued by Nick's wife, how much does she know about what he is getting up to? She knows about June and that he's helping her and she's good with it, I hope that she actually is this nice and isn't playing him. 

I hope that Tuello really isn't falling for Serena's bullshit. He obviously knows how awful Gilead is and he knows that she part of its formation, plus she's just an annoyingly smug person on a personal level. For one second I thought that June was actually going to do something to Serena, but of course she just yells at her, because that's how most of June's plans are, with the exception of actually managing to escape and then killing Fred. Like when she risked the lives of an insane amount of people to see her daughter sleeping for three seconds. 

I think the reason the moments where we are supposed to feel something for Aunt Lydia work better for me than when we are supposed to feel something for Serena is because her moments are usually her feeling sympathy for "her girls" or trying to help them, which is massively hypocritical considered how she treats them, but it does show some sort of empathy. Serena rarely shows anything close to sympathy to anyone besides herself, we're supposed to feel bad for her when bad things happen to her, and I really don't. 

This show should really just lean into the whole power fantasy badass stuff and focus more on May Day. Hopefully not with June as much, not only because she sucks at plans, but I hate how important she has become to the shows universe.  

[belladonna77]

Was Mackenzie saying that he's the reason that June has had all this plot armor all along?  He didn't want anything bad to happen to Agnes/Hannah's mother or for her to hear anything bad about her? 

[AntFTW]

12 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

I figured Commander Lawrence wouldn't want to deal with Serena as a wife. 

So I'm not crazy, Serena was hinting at being the new Mrs. Commander Lawrence.

[Helena Dax]

I thought for a moment that the other Commanders were going to force Lawrence to marry Serena! In any case, I simply don't understand her status right now. She seemed to be a prisoner of the US government (or at least, the Canadian one) but when she announced that she was planning to stay, Tuello didn't have any power over her.... And then they went back to Canada and she was again in custody. Wtf?

And why is Gilead letting her go? Even if they don't want her, they should want the baby.

 I wonder what Aunt Lydia meant when she said she would change, because what happened with Janine and Esther this time isn't her fault. In fact, she tried a soft  approach with Esther, letting Janine talk her into agreeing to behave like a good handmaid. I mean, I would understand if she thought that the whole system is fucked-up and hurting "her girls", but it looked like she was just blaming herself (and Esther). 

I guess I'm confused.

[NeenerNeener]

I'm not pleased that they sent Serena back to spread the Gilead corruption to Canada. She needs to get a clue that she will never have a  leadership role in a "patriarchy".

[AntFTW]

2 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

 I wonder what Aunt Lydia meant when she said she would change, because what happened with Janine and Esther this time isn't her fault.

But Aunt Lydia doesn't know that. Aunt Lydia only has her own perspective. She doesn't know that Esther was never going to be this obedient handmaid. She didn't know that Esther was still internally rebelling, and probably would have continued to do so regardless of how much easier she went on the handmaids. She's starting to question what is she doing to make these handmaids want to kill themselves.

I love the actress, Ann Dowd. I think she is such a phenomenal actress. She made me feel bad for Aunt Lydia and then immediately take a shower to wash the sympathy off.

[greekmom]

I don't buy Lydia's blubbering at Janine's bedside. Season 1 Lydia didn't give two fucks about the women. I don't believe her turnaround that she cares for Janine.
Mrs. Mackenzie's comment about June being "that devil of a woman" - uh bitch you all made her that way.
I love the realizations:
Moira realizing that the things June did maybe bad but for good reasons.
June realizing that she is Mayday and she did alot of good things. And not all men are bad (the eye).
 Tuello realizing he's in the lion's den
Serena realizing that Gilead doesnt want her. 

I can only see Mrs. Putman being forced to go and bring Angela. I never seen her as willing being kind to Janine and I highly doubt it she would tell Angela that she had a birth mother.
Tuello said he spent years studying the country. How many years has Gilead come about? And there is no beauty there. Serena is a fool.
Didn't they cut off her ring finger? It seemed now that she had the fake finger on her pinkie.
 

[Whimsy]

20 minutes ago, greekmom said:

I don't buy Lydia's blubbering at Janine's bedside. Season 1 Lydia didn't give two fucks about the women. I don't believe her turnaround that she cares for Janine.
 

I didn’t buy it either, but for a different reason. I normally like Anne Dowd’s acting, but that was really bad to me. I didn’t feel any emotion at all and she just was so OTT, at least to me.  As far as I can remember (which isn’t far) she’s always been touting “my girls” this and “my girls” that, but she’s also been very cruel and even physically abusive to them at the same time so it’s never felt very genuine, and it didn’t here either. 

[Kel Varnsen]

4 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

I thought for a moment that the other Commanders were going to force Lawrence to marry Serena! In any case, I simply don't understand her status right now. She seemed to be a prisoner of the US government (or at least, the Canadian one) but when she announced that she was planning to stay, Tuello didn't have any power over her.... And then they went back to Canada and she was again in custody. Wtf?

And why is Gilead letting her go? Even if they don't want her, they should want the baby.

The stuff with Serena makes no sense. If she was free enough that she could decide on her own that she was going to be staying in Gilead why was she even in custody in Canada. And then the reverse, if she is now a Gilead global ambassador, why was there talk about taking her back to the detention centre? Not to mention people can't just show up in Canada and say they are ambassadors and get to stay. Especially if you are the ambassador from some bullshit country that no one actually recognizes.

Also on a much more minor note, why was Nick talking to June on a landline? You would think someone who used to be involved with surveillance would have some concerns about people listening in on his calls.

[chaifan]

OK, seriously folks.  Someone needs to grab one of the show writers for an interview and have them explain Serena's situation.  Because, as other people mentioned, and I'm sure more will follow, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Serena arranges to deliver Fred to US/Canadian authorities, but believes that in doing so she will be scott free, and possibly able to reunite with Nicole.  That backfires, as June implicates Serena in war crimes of rape, kidnapping, etc. etc. etc.  So Serena is in custody along with Fred.  Fred makes a deal to reveal all of Gilead's secrets in exchange for being let free in Belgium or someplace.  I seem to remember some conversation last season of them letting Serena off the hook, but I don't remember why.  And if that's the case, why is she still in custody?  But if she's in custody, how is she allowed to roam about freely while in Gilead, and even given the choice to stay in Gilead?  But if she's free, why is she taken back to the detention center upon return to Canada?  

And I get that she's more of a liability for Gilead - they certainly don't want a woman who thinks and has ideas and opinions to be hanging around the other wives on a regular basis.  Baby or no baby, they don't want her there.  But she's good PR, so Canada makes sense.

I do like the new Mrs. Nick, and I hope we get more of her story.  Nick's an idiot for being within 10 feet of Tuello - that seemed really out of character for him.  Just this morning, I speculated that a Serena/Lawrence marriage of convenience would be a hoot to see, and damn, they came pretty close to going there.  Tuello's an idiot for falling for Serena, in any respect.   He can go away now.  I do like that they had Serena demand a staff and giant budget and security.  I still see her being a cult figure for the Canadian-based Gilead followers.  But again... if she's in detention, exactly how is she supposed to be Gilead's (unofficial) representative in Canada? 

Aunt Lydia...  here's the big difference between Lydia and Serena:  Lydia actually believes all of this stuff.  Serena believes some of it, the underlying base religious reasons, but thinks the ceremonies and women's oppression are total bullshit.  But Aunt Lydia truly believes in Gilead for all that Gilead is. 

Will we ever find out where Esther got the poison from?

[Kel Varnsen]

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

But again... if she's in detention, exactly how is she supposed to be Gilead's (unofficial) representative in Canada? 

I am also wondering if she gives birth in Toronto is the baby a Canadian citizen? Would baby have dual citizenship if Canada doesn't recognize Gilead as a country?

Edited September 22, 2022 by Kel Varnsen

[ww92]

30 minutes ago, chaifan said:

OK, seriously folks.  Someone needs to grab one of the show writers for an interview and have them explain Serena's situation.  Because, as other people mentioned, and I'm sure more will follow, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Serena arranges to deliver Fred to US/Canadian authorities, but believes that in doing so she will be scott free, and possibly able to reunite with Nicole.  That backfires, as June implicates Serena in war crimes of rape, kidnapping, etc. etc. etc.  So Serena is in custody along with Fred.  Fred makes a deal to reveal all of Gilead's secrets in exchange for being let free in Belgium or someplace.  I seem to remember some conversation last season of them letting Serena off the hook, but I don't remember why.  And if that's the case, why is she still in custody?  But if she's in custody, how is she allowed to roam about freely while in Gilead, and even given the choice to stay in Gilead?  But if she's free, why is she taken back to the detention center upon return to Canada?  

And I get that she's more of a liability for Gilead - they certainly don't want a woman who thinks and has ideas and opinions to be hanging around the other wives on a regular basis.  Baby or no baby, they don't want her there.  But she's good PR, so Canada makes sense.

I do like the new Mrs. Nick, and I hope we get more of her story.  Nick's an idiot for being within 10 feet of Tuello - that seemed really out of character for him.  Just this morning, I speculated that a Serena/Lawrence marriage of convenience would be a hoot to see, and damn, they came pretty close to going there.  Tuello's an idiot for falling for Serena, in any respect.   He can go away now.  I do like that they had Serena demand a staff and giant budget and security.  I still see her being a cult figure for the Canadian-based Gilead followers.  But again... if she's in detention, exactly how is she supposed to be Gilead's (unofficial) representative in Canada? 

Aunt Lydia...  here's the big difference between Lydia and Serena:  Lydia actually believes all of this stuff.  Serena believes some of it, the underlying base religious reasons, but thinks the ceremonies and women's oppression are total bullshit.  But Aunt Lydia truly believes in Gilead for all that Gilead is. 

Will we ever find out where Esther got the poison from?

I keep wondering the same thing about  Serena. I thought maybe I'd just forgotten stuff.

If she's a prisoner in Canada (clearly in a very fancy prison) and was given compassionate leave  to attend her  husband's funeral then why isn't she guarded 24/7 in Gilead? Why are they able to tell Tuello that  he can't go into this room  or that  room? Why is she able to say she's not going back to Canada, she's staying in Gilead? Isn't she supposed to go on trial for war crimes?

On a side note, I can't remember. Are Commanders and their wives allowed to have sex to see  if they can procreate? Why isn't anyone wondering how Serena got pregnant when she'd had handmaids so theoretically is infertile? How did Serena get a maternity Commander's wife dress in Canada? How come when she was in Canada she didn't still dress like a Commander's wife? Even if she couldn't get the actual outfit you'd think she still would have been in modest dresses, hair in a bun and all of that jazz. Not in leggings and a tank top with her hair down where any man could lust after her or some BS.

[dmc]

So far I am iffy on this season.  I feel like to enjoy it, I am going to have to completely suspend belief and not ask my brain any questions...

Questions I am ignoring for now...

So Serena is traitor to Gilead, she was a wife who turned in a commander.  If Gilead won't let a handmaid killing a commander stand, what about a wife turning in a commander?

All Serena knows is that June had something to do with Fred's death, there is no way she could know Lawrence or Nick was involved...that's a big leap for a person who left Gilead a year before Fred's death...

The funeral cave-in for a traitor who is a woman is also a stretch, these people cut off her finger for her bible reading...

WTF is Tuello doing there, it's beyond belief that all roles for the US government are now played by Tuello...also sending the guy that formally arrested Fred as security/handler for Serena seems stupid.  I feel like intelligence would send someone else to conspire with Nick or glean intel

How can someone who conspired against Gilead speak on the world stage for Gilead?

Serena came to Canada to testify against Fred, that never happened because she was arrested for rape.  What happened to that arrest?  How is Fred's deal impacted since his death?  Why would a criminal be allowed to go back to Gilead to bury another criminal?

This show is asking us to believe Serena is more important to the US and Gilead than she would be to either at this point.

At this point,  I am sick of guessing Tuello's plan like I need to see something about bringing Gilead down from the US government...like the actual traumatized aunts and handmaids have more of a resistance going at the border than Tuello who has been working since the fall of US government

Also Serena is playing you Tuello...and considering she's back in Gilead, almost free and now will be speaking on the world stage...she got more from you than you got from her chump...

Edited September 22, 2022 by dmc

[Redrum]

26 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I seem to remember some conversation last season of them letting Serena off the hook, but I don't remember why

Basically Fred was taking one for the team because Serena was pregnant and being threatened with life in prison

27 minutes ago, chaifan said:

And if that's the case, why is she still in custody?  But if she's in custody, how is she allowed to roam about freely while in Gilead, and even given the choice to stay in Gilead?

I dont think she was free to do as she pleased but basically if Gilead wanted to keep her at any point, what is Tuello going to do? Invoke the geneva convention? They basically could just kill him and keep her.

1 hour ago, Whimsy said:

I didn’t buy it either, but for a different reason. I normally like Anne Dowd’s acting, but that was really bad to me. I didn’t feel any emotion at all and she just was so OTT, at least to me.  As far as I can remember (which isn’t far) she’s always been touting “my girls” this and “my girls” that, but she’s also been very cruel and even physically abusive to them at the same time so it’s never felt very genuine, and it didn’t here either. 

I don't buy it either because we also had Lydia in Aunt Lydia glory bitchslapping a comatose 14 year whose previously been savagely gangraped. Lydia could shit care less about the other Handmaids. Janine is just her special pet. When Lydia starts to comprehend that cutting out tongues and eyes other than Janine's was cruel, or you know, ANY of the other torture events we've seen Aunt Lydia proudly partake in, weren't AOK per Jesus, then maybe we can talk redemption arc but Janine has always been the much abused pet. Also I agree with whoever said that Ann Dowd was overdoing it.

Now my big question is how shitty is Tuello's security in Canada that he and Serena can be boxed in with the car so that June can do her crazy pants threats?

And in the real world, why didn't June just take her shot and blow Serena's head off *right there*.

[chaifan]

19 minutes ago, dmc said:

So Serena is traitor to Gilead, she was a wife who turned in a commander.  If Gilead won't let a handmaid killing a commander stand, what about a wife turning in a commander?

***

The funeral cave-in for a traitor who is a woman is also a stretch, these people cut off her finger for her bible reading...

***

How can someone who conspired against Gilead speak on the world stage for Gilead?

Serena came to Canada to testify against Fred, that never happened because she was arrested for rape. 

The Commanders back in Gilead have no reason to know that Serena set Fred up for arrest in Canada.  They know that Fred was about to rat them all out to save his own butt, but they have no reason to believe that Serena is a traitor.  To them she is the grieving widow.  Serena didn't go to Canada to testify against Fred.  She went there to hand Fred over to them.  Her intention was never to testify against him. 

[dmc]

9 minutes ago, chaifan said:

The Commanders back in Gilead have no reason to know that Serena set Fred up for arrest in Canada.  They know that Fred was about to rat them all out to save his own butt, but they have no reason to believe that Serena is a traitor.  To them she is the grieving widow.  Serena didn't go to Canada to testify against Fred.  She went there to hand Fred over to them.  Her intention was never to testify against him. 

They absolutely know, Gilead has a diplomatic agreement with America and Canada.  When they arrested a commander, Gilead absolutely has a right to know why.  Notice how the Putnams went there and were not arrested...

Its also why when Naomi visited and Serena started to explain...she waived her off and everyone understands you are a good mother...as in she understands why she betrayed Fred 

And Fred was going to get some sort of trial and the only evidence they had was from Serena

Edited September 22, 2022 by dmc

[chaifan]

2 minutes ago, dmc said:

They absolutely know, Gilead has a diplomatic agreement with America and Canada.  When they arrested a commander, Gilead absolutely has a right to know why.  Notice how the Putnams went there and were not arrested...

Its also why when Naomi visited and Serena started to explain...she waived her off and everyone understands you are a good mother

We've never seen anything on screen that has indicated that anyone in Gilead knows or suspects Serena of selling Fred out.  If I remember right, the reason for Fred's arrest was June's allegations against him. 

The Commanders knew Fred was a traitor and assigned the Eyes to take him out.  If they actually knew Serena set him up, she would have met the same fate.

All that being said, I'm pretty sure Lawrence knows (or at least strongly suspects) the real story behind all this.  But he has no reason to fill anyone else in.

That's the way I remember all this going down last season. 

[dmc]

2 minutes ago, chaifan said:

We've never seen anything on screen that has indicated that anyone in Gilead knows or suspects Serena of selling Fred out.  If I remember right, the reason for Fred's arrest was June's allegations against him. 

The Commanders knew Fred was a traitor and assigned the Eyes to take him out.  If they actually knew Serena set him up, she would have met the same fate.

All that being said, I'm pretty sure Lawrence knows (or at least strongly suspects) the real story behind all this.  But he has no reason to fill anyone else in.

That's the way I remember all this going down last season. 

Fred and Serena were in Canada before and not arrested.  The way they arrested Fred was for Serena to turn on him.  They didn't spell it out but that's what happened.  Tuello cultivates assets and turns them

Edited September 22, 2022 by dmc

[Redrum]

7 minutes ago, chaifan said:

The Commanders back in Gilead have no reason to know that Serena set Fred up for arrest in Canada. 

There's no way this wasn't told to Gilead because Gilead would be demanding their return. There's utterly no reason for the US/Canada to not reveal to Gilead that Serena assisted them in grabbing Fred because its awesome press for the US/Canada that a wife betrayed her husband. Also it makes Serena more controllable since she can't go back.

[dmc]

3 minutes ago, Redrum said:

There's no way this wasn't told to Gilead because Gilead would be demanding their return. There's utterly no reason for the US/Canada to not reveal to Gilead that Serena assisted them in grabbing Fred because its awesome press for the US/Canada that a wife betrayed her husband. Also it makes Serena more controllable since she can't go back.

Absolutely agreed it helps the US and Canada to isolate Fred and Serena making them dependent on a life there in Canada and Gilead would be demanding their return if they were just randomly arrested.  Serena turned on Fred and yes she would have testified but then she was arrested.  

Edited September 22, 2022 by dmc

[MichaelaRae]

11 hours ago, Redrum said:

I mean, would you want Serena around?

Well, NO, but my reasons and Gilead’s reasons I feel like are parallel lines that will NEVER intersect. 

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, dmc said:

So Serena is traitor to Gilead, she was a wife who turned in a commander.  If Gilead won't let a handmaid killing a commander stand, what about a wife turning in a commander?

That is the one part of this whole thing that kind of maybe makes sense to me. Just because commanders in Gilead think so lowly of women that they probably think, how could she be smart enough to come up with a plan to get her husband to Canada, turn him in and make a deal for herself. And if she did well then that is obviously Fred's fault, since he was clearly such a shitty man of the house that he couldn't keep his handmaid nor his wife in line. Either that or it was Fred's idea that just sort of backfired in him, because again he was the man so he was supposed to be in charge.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Kel Varnsen

[dmc]

9 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

That is the one part of this whole thing that kind of maybe makes sense to me. Just because commanders in Gilead think so lowly of women that they probably think, how could she be smart enough to come up with a plan to get her husband to Canada, turn him in and make a deal for herself. And if she did well then that is obviously Fred's fault, since he was clearly such a shitty man of the house that he couldn't keep his handmaid nor his wife in line.

The misogyny their society is based would take a hit if they have a single woman traitor as their spokesperson.  It's the antithesis to their beliefs. It makes sense in the sense that they are hypocrites who didn't think it through.

[crashdown]

2 hours ago, Redrum said:

And in the real world, why didn't June just take her shot and blow Serena's head off *right there*.

Because June is conflicted about Serena and doesn’t *really* want to kill her—that’s why she buried her gun after the “dream, dream, dream” sequence of Serena’s greatest evil hits. Whether that ambivalence is due to some wisp of emotional attachment or simply because murder in Canada would have actual legal consequences is impossible to say with confidence. 

[aghst]

First thing I noticed was, those are huge hospital suites.  For hand maiden, who are pretty low in Gilead society.

Gilead has better health care than the US!

Serena was definitely putting the moves on Lawrence.  For a supposedly religious woman, she had some worldly wiles.

Lawrence just isn't interested in sex?

Last season or the season before, it looked like Gilead was on a warpath, sick of Americans hiding out in Canada.  Hell this Mayday group could be a provocation if they crossed into Gilead and did some kind of damage and ran back across the border.

Now Gilead wants to strengthen relations with the rest of the world, have a global ambassador?  Of course they could renege on all the money they promised Serena.

Gilead's ideology is that they won't accommodate or compromise with nations which aren't true believers.  We see entities like that in real life, not interested in making peace with you, not interested in coexistence, they will conquer you with force, not ideas.

In fact MacKenzie talking about cutting out the cancer that is June Osborn sounded like they might try to assassinate June, wherever she is.  Of course killing her in Canada would be an act of war.

Where did all these sympathizers of Gilead and Serena come from?  If they love Gilead so much, why don't they go back instead of living in Toronto?  Those women were in tears over Serena.  I'd like to say maybe they were getting their hands burned from holding the candles but no, I think they were just loony.

Also, what a security breach, June knew where and when Serena was returning and so did those self-hating women.

[SassyCat]

5 hours ago, greekmom said:

Didn't they cut off her ring finger? It seemed now that she had the fake finger on her pinkie.

Nah.. it was always the pinkie, but Rita sure did whip her up a very well made, prosthetic replacement. Without any fittings! 

I also agree Aunt Lydias cry acting was way over the top at Janines bedside. Embarrassingly so.

I think Serena was hoping and assuming that Gilead would accept her back because shes afraid of June, plus has more freedom of movement than in detention in Canada, if you want to call living as a woman there free, in any sense of the word as an upper class female citizen. She looked kind of shocked when they “respectfully” declined her desire to return, with their reasoning that she was an uncommon woman. 
One who can’t be trusted, like her husband Fred, the traitor snitch. 
They dont want her there but know they need keep her appeased in hopes she does not turn on them too. 
They just saw how she manipulated a way more grand funeral out of them than they desired to originally give him. That she even manipulated her way back in there using dead Fred to do so. Unusual and Uncommon women are too smart for their tastes.

[Lily H]

I'm not enjoying this show like I used to. Aunt Lydia's tears over a girl whose eye she cut out were ridiculous. And I'm really, really sick of Serena being treated like a visiting princess everywhere she goes. Bitch should be hanging upside down on a wall.

[circumvent]

Serena is going to start a cult in Canada

The show has nothing to do with the book but it also has nothing to do with the earlier seasons of the show. 

Gilead is fully accepted in the international order, diplomats are posted and can come and go as they please, even when they are technically prisoners. One person, who is not even Canadian, dictates when and how Serena, a prisoner, will leave Canada and come back. Ok, then. the whole 

I was kind of hoping that they would tell Serena to go back to Canada after her baby was born, but that the baby would stay in Gilead with a more suitable family. I am evil

One thing that bugs me: June seemed surprised that MayDay even existed, that it was real but wan't it Mayday that took baby Nichole and Emily out of the Gilead? She knew the Martha's involved and all. Why is it now a "wow, you exist"!

Hannah is 12 and Nichole is still barely a toddler? I thought the age difference was about 9 years, but Nichole looks like she is still 1, which doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong about the ages? Did they sped up Hannah's growth or stopped Nichole? 

Spoiler

I hope that they will start changing Aunt Lydia now, so they can at least more or less fit her story into The Testaments narrative, where she is actually a human being. Maybe remorse will make her the character she became in The Testaments

[dmc]

Serena’s play for Lawrence was surprising.  I think Lawrence just hates her.  And according to him, his wife hated her too.  Lawrence had a wife who even with severe issues knew Gilead was an abomination.  Serena is a downgrade.  

Even Fred wanted to be rid of her.  
 

[greekmom]

4 hours ago, SassyCat said:

One who can’t be trusted, like her husband Fred, the traitor snitch. 
 

35 minutes ago, dmc said:

Serena’s play for Lawrence was surprising.  I think Lawrence just hates her.  And according to him, his wife hated her too.  Lawrence had a wife who even with severe issues knew Gilead was an abomination.  Serena is a downgrade.  

Even Fred wanted to be rid of her.  
 

I don't get the play for Lawrence except as a last ditch effort. I mean she had him rape June while she was drinking coffee downstairs and she turned Fred in to the Americans. No man in Gilead would want her.

[sadie]

Can anyone explain Serena’s “fans” in Canada. Are they in support of Gilead? Huh? If so, can’t they just go there, I’m sure Gilead would love some of those young fertile women to be handmaids. What are they supporting? Human slavery? Rape? Society where women can’t read, or own money? Do we have supporters of N Korea hanging around the US with candles and midnight vigils? I really don’t get this and no one has explained what these people think? I assume everyone knows of the atrocities in Gilead?

[Kel Varnsen]

19 minutes ago, sadie said:

Can anyone explain Serena’s “fans” in Canada. Are they in support of Gilead? Huh? If so, can’t they just go there, I’m sure Gilead would love some of those young fertile women to be handmaids. What are they supporting? Human slavery? Rape? Society where women can’t read, or own money? Do we have supporters of N Korea hanging around the US with candles and midnight vigils? I really don’t get this and no one has explained what these people think? I assume everyone knows of the atrocities in Gilead?

I am pretty sure they are like pre-Gilead Serena, they are pro fascism because they assume that if a fascist regime comes in they will be on the top level. And all the other people that they hate will be below them where they belong (their likely feelings, not mine). 

Edited September 22, 2022 by Kel Varnsen

[Redrum]

7 hours ago, Lily H said:

I'm not enjoying this show like I used to. Aunt Lydia's tears over a girl whose eye she cut out were ridiculous.

Without any real acknowledgement that the vast majority of Janine's suffering is directly due to her. 

Again, for all Aunt Lydia's wailing to God for forgiveness, she did full on bitch slap an unconscious hospitalized 14 year old who she was setting up for "you deserve this you slutty whore" raping. No tears for Esther from Aunt Lydia...

[AntFTW]

31 minutes ago, Redrum said:

Again, for all Aunt Lydia's wailing to God for forgiveness, she did full on bitch slap an unconscious hospitalized 14 year old

...which I kinda chuckled at.

It was so random and unnecessary.

Edited September 22, 2022 by AntFTW

[AntFTW]

Serena asked for a staff and a budget and whatnot but I felt like an ambassadorship to Canada had to be a phony position for her because I didn't think Canada was looking for more formal diplomatic ties with Gilead.

Would Canada let Gilead set up a post or embassy? I wouldn't think so.

Edited September 22, 2022 by AntFTW

[txhorns79]

32 minutes ago, Redrum said:

Without any real acknowledgement that the vast majority of Janine's suffering is directly due to her. 

That's entirely true, but I also feel like Janine and Aunt Lydia have developed a kind of very messed up mother/daughter relationship as time has passed.  In Aunt Lydia's mind, I would think she believes everything she has done to Janine was justified as serving a higher power.  She's seen Janine go from the rebellious woman at the Red Center to what she is today, and I think Aunt Lydia feels protective of her and that.

[Redrum]

20 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

...which I kinda chuckled at.

It was so random and unnecessary.

I admit this as well. ;)

It was just so typically Aunt Lydia. 

12 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

That's entirely true, but I also feel like Janine and Aunt Lydia have developed a kind of very messed up mother/daughter relationship as time has passed.  In Aunt Lydia's mind, I would think she believes everything she has done to Janine was justified as serving a higher power.  She's seen Janine go from the rebellious woman at the Red Center to what she is today, and I think Aunt Lydia feels protective of her and that.

Agreed but having some weird stockholm syndrome affection for one of her torture chew toys doesn't redeem her in my eyes. I mean wow, she broke Janine to sexual slavery to where in order to survive Janine completely subverts herself to Lydia and basically Lydia is sad that she didn't break Esther as well and Esther nearly killed her perfect example of how to break a woman's spirit.  I'm not buying it.

[circumvent]

41 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Would Canada going to let Gilead set up a post or embassy? I wouldn't think so.

The writers don't seem to have a problem having a prisoner demand to go back to her country by chartered plane and with an escort that seems to have the power to move all the necessary pieces. They also don't seem to have a problem writing a bunch of Gilead fan base in Canada that has no back story or purpose other than light candles for Serena in a cultish way. Why would they have a problem writing Gilead as a 100% accepted country in the international order? 

They don't care what they write, haven't care for a long time. 

[AntFTW]

41 minutes ago, circumvent said:

The writers don't seem to have a problem having a prisoner demand to go back to her country by chartered plane and with an escort that seems to have the power to move all the necessary pieces. They also don't seem to have a problem writing a bunch of Gilead fan base in Canada that has no back story or purpose other than light candles for Serena in a cultish way. Why would they have a problem writing Gilead as a 100% accepted country in the international order? 

They don't care what they write, haven't care for a long time. 

Apparently I didn't care what I wrote either because my typing is terrible!

[applecrisp]

17 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The stuff with Serena makes no sense. If she was free enough that she could decide on her own that she was going to be staying in Gilead why was she even in custody in Canada. And then the reverse, if she is now a Gilead global ambassador, why was there talk about taking her back to the detention centre? Not to mention people can't just show up in Canada and say they are ambassadors and get to stay. Especially if you are the ambassador from some bullshit country that no one actually recognizes.

Also on a much more minor note, why was Nick talking to June on a landline? You would think someone who used to be involved with surveillance would have some concerns about people listening in on his calls.

Yes, yes agree. Why does the hospital in Gilead look so modern and even kinda high tech.

[madpsych78]

MacKenzie and his wife are intriguing and what was interesting was that they made Lawrence, Nick, and even Serena uncomfortable with their talk about June. 

Actually, I would be interested in a Lawrence versus MacKenzie battle within Gilead. I think Lawrence embraces parts of Gilead but not all of it, but I think MacKenzie has a different view altogether. It also looks like they're setting up a Nick versus MacKenzie situation as well.  

I'm not a really big fan of Lawrence and Serena getting married (neither is Lawrence, evidently), but I am definitely all for more scenes with the two of them together.

[Kel Varnsen]

8 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Serena asked for a staff and a budget and whatnot but I felt like an ambassadorship to Canada had to be a phony position for her because I didn't think Canada was looking for more formal diplomatic ties with Gilead.

Would Canada let Gilead set up a post or embassy? I wouldn't think so.

The more I think about it the less sense it makes. She asked for a budget but how would that work? Does Gilead even have a currency? I doubt there is any kind of standard exchange rate between milk coupons and Canadian dollars. And even if they still have bank vaults full of US dollars, or I guess gold, are they going to by flying her money deliveries every month, because if the rest of the world wants to isolate Gilead it's not hard to cut off their banking system (like they did with Russia)  It's kind of a small thing that will probably never get explained but it's just another weird annoying thing.

[crashdown]

45 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The more I think about it the less sense it makes. She asked for a budget but how would that work? Does Gilead even have a currency? I doubt there is any kind of standard exchange rate between milk coupons and Canadian dollars. And even if they still have bank vaults full of US dollars, or I guess gold, are they going to by flying her money deliveries every month, because if the rest of the world wants to isolate Gilead it's not hard to cut off their banking system (like they did with Russia)  It's kind of a small thing that will probably never get explained but it's just another weird annoying thing.

I think it's been well established that the political world building in the show is shaky at best, and that goes back to the source material. Margaret Atwood wasn't really interested in fleshing out a world; she was interested in playing with a concept. It didn't matter much in the book, since that was a smallish story with a limited point of view--it was forgivable that the narrator wasn't fully explaining the politics and economics of Gilead to us, because she was one person with a certain subset of concerns. It matters more now that the show is somewhat of an ensemble, but we'll never be able to escape the fact that Gilead itself makes no sense at all: you simply can't get rid of half of your workers by enslaving and subjugating women and have a functioning economy. 

For myself, I just choose to bracket all that out, because it's obvious that these storytellers are interested more in emotional truths than in political ones. There's not much political and economic truth in Serena's demands for a budget and a staff for all the reasons that have been pointed out. But there's plenty of emotional truth there: she's scared, she's humiliated, and she's trying to act powerful and in control when she knows that she is anything but. I can enjoy that without thinking too hard about how she's paying her bodyguards.