S01.E05: We Light the Way

[Uncle JUICE]

Just now, Helena Dax said:

Not sure about that, he used to have a lover and while I'm not sure they were having sex in last episode, back in episode one and two it looked like their relationship included sex.

Couldn't close the deal with Myseria, the woman he was having sex with in E1, and couldn't get it to work with Rhaenyra, I'm fairly certain the show runners have confirmed he is not one of the...stone men, if you know what I mean. 

[Colorado David]

I don't think it wasn't gay friendly back then (well this is fiction, but back in history seems gays weren't frowned upon.) I think Ser Criston just didn't care for the idea of being under constant threat of being ratted out by Joffrey. Plus he is already hating himself for sacrificing his oath to Rhaenyra's wiles. BUT he should have picked a better time to whoop up - the middle of a wedding welcome party is absolutely the worst spot to go into hulk mode. I hope he doesn't follow thru on his hari-kari.

[Uncle JUICE]

11 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

He said no twice. It was coercion.  I think about Dany with her lover before she came to Westeros and how more balanced it felt. 

Have to agree here...she's essentially his boss. Except if he starts pushing back on these demands, he's literally going to get killed in some horrible way. So yeah, I'm sure having sex with Rhaenyra was really pleasant at least, but it's not just somewoman he eventually came around to the idea on. Displease the princess...lose your post and probably more. Do what she wants, great, she's happy, but one loose lipped servant and you're gelded and sent to the wall if you're lucky. 

PS I hope we get to go to the wall. 

[Dac22]

1 minute ago, Colorado David said:

BUT he should have picked a better time to whoop up - the middle of a wedding welcome party is absolutely the worst spot to go into hulk mode.

I really don't think Criston was thinking about much at that point in time. 

The guy was at his breaking point after everything and Joffrey's arrogance was the thing that made him snap. What he did was awful and terrible even if Joffrey stupidly put a target on his own back.

[Lassus]

5 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

Honestly it seemed like he was having performance issues earlier in the series with Mysaria too.

Not necessarily you in particular, but I kinda feel like Daemon's impotence is being played up to a lot more than what might actually be happening.  He didn't want to fuck Mysaria because he was dealing with wanting to fuck Rhaenyra, and then when he was able to do so he was a bit like the dog who caught the car and realized OH SHIT.

I mean, maybe I'm totally wrong; but I feel like a lot of it's being expanded upon into something that hasn't yet been shown?

[Maurina]

Okay this is neither here nor there, but can we talk about all the dancing in this episode? I don't remember hardly any dancing at all in GOT, and here we got full-blown 'courtly' dance routines. Which, let's face it, were pretty lame. And I get that the choreography of couples dance between Rhaenyra and Laenor was supposed to imply some kind of dragon moves, arms flailing around wing-like, but still it was just... well, lame is the only word that comes to mind.

[Uncle JUICE]

10 minutes ago, Maurina said:

Okay this is neither here nor there, but can we talk about all the dancing in this episode? I don't remember hardly any dancing at all in GOT, and here we got full-blown 'courtly' dance routines. Which, let's face it, were pretty lame. And I get that the choreography of couples dance between Rhaenyra and Laenor was supposed to imply some kind of dragon moves, arms flailing around wing-like, but still it was just... well, lame is the only word that comes to mind.

YES we can talk about it. It was interminable! I felt like it was 40 minutes long. Were people like really entertained by that shit back in the day, or did some lord or lady come up with that stuff and then everyone kinda HAD to pretend to like it, then it sorta took on this life of its own? Where every noble feast they're like "Look, everyone's doing that weird slow dragon dance, I don't PERSONALLY get it, but if we DON'T do it, then we might look like the weird family who doesn't 'get' it, right? I guess we better learn it. So shuffle aimlessly this way...shuffle shuffle shuffle...now mime a high five but don't touch...and shuffle shuffle the other way, yes, crushing it...now hands on your hips, walk away, yes yes...holy shit this is lame. Now, best upgrade to this dance is to sneak glances at your secret lover while you prance, try it!"

Edit: Now I'm stuck in a mental scene where one of the courtly ladies is all "Yeah girl, GET IT!" while they do those super chaste dances. Or what moves would qualify as controversial and provocative.

I'm sitting there watching it thinking "Now's the time to hit up that feast table again, this is boring as shit, did they open the lemon cake bar yet... " 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Uncle JUICE

[voiceover]

15 hours ago, Dac22 said:

And with the way Rhea looked up right before her horse got spooked/she pulled out her weapon, was that Daemon's dragon I heard in the background? 

I rewatched that sequence a few times.  There’s a few things there, suggesting his dragon was…nearby.  Her hair started blowing the other way; Daemon looked…upward right before the horse reared; horses are said to be sensitive to their owners’ emotions — perhaps it keyed in on her sudden *suspicion of a dragon? plus fear of the dragon itself?  There was also that sudden movement when she grabbed for her bow.  Matt made his character choices so ambivalent that even now, after three times over, I can’t decide if he approached her with Intent to Kill — or just to scare her, only he was cool with it working in his favor.

Ohhhh Ser Kingsguard Cole and his laying a bit of Marlowe on the princess (“Come live with me and be my love…”), but Rhaenyra’s all, “But muh career!”

[Lady S.]

5 hours ago, Cristofle said:

Of course, then she asked her uncle to marry her and blow it to pieces, lol, but we can't win 'em all.

I read that as both flirtation and calling his bluff, like on Dragonstone. Saying she wouldn't quitely run away with him and daring him to cut down all the guards, which of couse he wouldn't do. The start of their convo showed she was still not over him leaving her high-and-not-so-dry in that brothel.

3 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

Even Renly and Loras were a fairly open secret. Laenor and Joffrey seemed even more so. Kind of in a glass closet.

Yeah, plus their secret is actually less dangerous than Rhaenyra/Criston's since Joffrey wasn't in the Kingsguard. And, really, if the groom's best man is killed on his wedding day, why wouldn't he be upset?

2 hours ago, magdalene said:

How much did Daemon plan all of this? I am a rider all my life and have fallen off plenty in my time.  Using a horse to kill someone is a crap shoot at best.

I think he went there with the intent of murder, but probably no firmer plan than that. Again, this man is a loser surviving on pure luck who can't win a joust or a war without cheating. And the war still took him 3 years with the final simplistic strategy originating with Laenor.

1 hour ago, mjc570 said:

I think he was also triggered by Ser Joffrey referring to himself as the "Knight of Kisses," thus implying that Criston also is a K of K.  I think that linkage was the last thing to set him off (along with the other issues, his humiliation, etc)

Yes, it wasn't any implied threat when he was already willing to die nor did he care about the lack of discretion when he already confessed and earlier asked Rhaenyra to run away with him with witnesses on the ship. The presumption of Joffrey thinking they were the same, both happy to be whores was the insult for him. And yes, it wasn't really about Joffrey either, that was anger stewing all ep and really his rage was for Rhaenyra, the first person to think he should be a "whore". If that rage directed against a 3rd party doesn't alarm you, I don't know what to say. He probably could have seriously hurt Laenor too if he'd stayed in the way, and Laenor was completely innocent. And yes, I'd say the same if a woman beat a 3rd party to death because her boss married someone else and only wanted her for a mistress. (If dumbass Joffrey was too dumb to live, what does that make Criston murdering him in a very crowded room?)

I feel bad for Criston in his suicidal wishes, but it shouldn't take a political genius to know deserting your post and eloping with a princess is actually much more dishonorable and worse oathbreaking than one night of secret sex. That makes me think he was trying to save her honor too. (Remember, it wasn't the kiss that made him whisper stop, it was the her starting to undress.) Yes, what Rhaenyra did was wrong and she took advantage but I don't think that ever occurred to him until she rejected him and made it clear she didn't love him. This man with 0 self-preservation and honor before all reason was not acting out of fear last ep, he hesitated because of his internal honor and gave in because he thought she was in love with him. I don't think he was really in love with her either, but that doesn't mean he didn't have real romantic and sexual feelings making him want to believe so. This isn't about me excusing Rhaenyra, just that I think it's very reductive to act like this is the same as her grabbing any random pretty male servant or a prince doing the same with a female servant, geez.

29 minutes ago, racked said:

One thing I wonder about is why Daemon didn’t kill his wife sooner, before he tried to get Viserys to let him marry Rhaenyra. If he was going to do it anyway, seems like an easier sell when he’s single than letting him take her as a second wife. 

I think he had some small lingering respect for the king's authority holding him back before, as well as Rhaenyra not being of age until recently. That last "shred of honor" is gone after their last fight. (You think I'm black-hearted now, bro, I'll show you.) And now he knows bigamy is definitely off the table and the only way he can have Rhaenyra is if she sneaks away with him, which she wouldn't do, telling him he'd have to cut their way free. Viserys would never give his blessing either way, and surely even he knows the wife's death was too convenient, but eloping to have only one wife would make it a fait accompli. 

[Lassus]

Medieval courtly dancing was actually far less interesting than what this was.  (Barring the dragon dance, I mean, which would have been like Schoenberg in the 14th century.)

[Avabelle]

Ok can someone explain Alicents motives to me? I didn’t read the books so don’t know the full history but why has she completely turned on Vicerys and Rhaenyra. As already called out her sudden butthurtness over the princess lying about sexing it up seems silly given how much she lied to her when seducing her father right after her mothers death.

It could be that I never really trusted Alicent but feels like she was only dying for any reason to turn on the king and princess so that she could feel justified in wanting Aegon on the throne when really she’s just as power hungry as pops. 

[DigitalCount]

27 minutes ago, Lassus said:

Not necessarily you in particular, but I kinda feel like Daemon's impotence is being played up to a lot more than what might actually be happening.  He didn't want to fuck Mysaria because he was dealing with wanting to fuck Rhaenyra, and then when he was able to do so he was a bit like the dog who caught the car and realized OH SHIT.

I mean, maybe I'm totally wrong; but I feel like a lot of it's being expanded upon into something that hasn't yet been shown?

You might be right; I think there's something in one of the "behind the episode" pieces that leans in that direction. It's hard to depict that sort of thing because it would require him to talk to someone about it, which he absolutely wouldn't do.

[Uncle JUICE]

5 minutes ago, Avabelle said:

Ok can someone explain Alicents motives to me?

For me, it boils down to first and foremost she wants to protect her children. There's simply no reality in Westeros wherein her children live happily ever after and Rhaenyra is queen. Otto is right in that the realm will go to war over it, which means the most expeditious solution available is simply to murder Alicent and the kids to protect Rhaenyra's claim. The converse also seems true: the only way to truly protect her children will eventually HAVE to be Rhaenyra's death. I'm not sure Alicent is more interested in the idea of having her son sit on the throne than she is just having him alive, but as it turns out, the two are inextricable. She doesn't seem "power hungry" to me, she is too resigned and disinterested looking whenever the king's not around, and she's more of a tool in a scheme than a schemer so far. Honestly I don't even think she has a great idea of what to do with Cristin's situation, how to use it, what to do about it yet. Cersei would have had a plan three quarters done by now. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Uncle JUICE

[Lassus]

5 minutes ago, Avabelle said:

Ok can someone explain Alicents motives to me? I didn’t read the books so don’t know the full history but why has she completely turned on Vicerys and Rhaenyra. As already called out her sudden butthurtness over the princess lying about sexing it up seems silly given how much she lied to her when seducing her father right after her mothers death.

It could be that I never really trusted Alicent but feels like she was only dying for any reason to turn on the king and princess so that she could feel justified in wanting Aegon on the throne when really she’s just as power hungry as pops.

I have a different take.  I neither think she's power hungry, nor lovestruck over Rhaenyra.  I honestly have the impression (justified or not) that she's more just tired and bitter from being forced into being this baby machine who has to worry about all this shit instead of being a very important woman in the realm but not the MOST important woman in the realm.  I think she's just angry in general.

1 minute ago, Uncle JUICE said:

For me, it boils down to first and foremost she wants to protect her children. There's simply no reality in Westeros wherein her children live happily ever after and Rhaenyra is queen. Otto is right in that the realm will go to war over it, which means the most expeditious solution available is simply to murder Alicent and the kids to protect Rhaenyra's claim. The converse also seems true: the only way to truly protect her children will eventually HAVE to be Rhaenyra's death. I'm not sure Alicent is more interested in the idea of having her son sit on the throne than she is just having him alive, but as it turns out, the two are inextricable. 

If Alicent loves and is devoted and attached to her children THAT much, they've done a damned poor job showing it.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Lassus

[Uncle JUICE]

2 minutes ago, Lassus said:

If Alicent loves and is devoted and attached to her children THAT much, they've done a damned poor job showing it.

Fair criticism, but if she's a power hungry climber, they've done even LESS work showing that in my book. 

[aghst]

Didn't Viserys choose Raynera as his heir long before he married Alicent?

And he's repeatedly said he's not changing his succession plan.

So why does Otto and now Alicent object?

Otto isn't just saying there will be opposition to a woman ascending to the Iron Throne.  It sounds like he will be one of the leaders of that opposition.

[Constantinople]

28 minutes ago, Maurina said:

Okay this is neither here nor there, but can we talk about all the dancing in this episode? I don't remember hardly any dancing at all in GOT, and here we got full-blown 'courtly' dance routines. Which, let's face it, were pretty lame. And I get that the choreography of couples dance between Rhaenyra and Laenor was supposed to imply some kind of dragon moves, arms flailing around wing-like, but still it was just... well, lame is the only word that comes to mind.

This is the dance routine Laenor originally proposed but Viserys said no

[Avabelle]

1 minute ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Fair criticism, but if she's a power hungry climber, they've done even LESS work showing that in my book. 

Agree. That scene of her rocking the crying child while looking completely detached was just sad. I think she’s ultimately a good mother but I don’t buy at this moment she’s driven by any great devotion to them.

2 minutes ago, aghst said:

Didn't Viserys choose Raynera as his heir long before he married Alicent?

And he's repeatedly said he's not changing his succession plan.

So why does Otto and now Alicent object?

Otto isn't just saying there will be opposition to a woman ascending to the Iron Throne.  It sounds like he will be one of the leaders of that opposition.

I think Otto and probably Alicent at the back of her mind assumed that Vicerys would back down once a son was born. Now that it’s not looking likely they’re panicking. 

[Dac22]

20 minutes ago, voiceover said:

 Matt made his character choices so ambivalent that even now, after three times over, I can’t decide if he approached her with Intent to Kill — or just to scare her, only he was cool with it working in his favor.

I lean towards intent to kill simply because Viserys was so quick to remind him he had a wife last episode. It just seems like a real big coincidence that's no longer an issue for him one episode later.

The again, if someone on the show said something different, I could roll with that as well. 

[Uncle JUICE]

3 minutes ago, aghst said:

Didn't Viserys choose Raynera as his heir long before he married Alicent?

And he's repeatedly said he's not changing his succession plan.

So why does Otto and now Alicent object?

Otto isn't just saying there will be opposition to a woman ascending to the Iron Throne.  It sounds like he will be one of the leaders of that opposition.

There has never been a queen in the history of Westeros, and there is no precedent for a woman to even lead a great house, it doesn't seem like the people are going to be easily swayed, and while he might be wrong, the chances of a civil war and absolute chaos breaking out in the current circumstance (particularly when a traditionally legitimate male ascendant is sitting in the hole, if Rhaenyra is in the on deck circle), which is good for literally no one. His feelings on the matter of queen / king are immaterial, he knows the realm won't just say "Hey cool!" and start selling a bunch of "I'm With Her" tee shirts. 

[paigow]

34 minutes ago, Lassus said:

Medieval courtly dancing was actually far less interesting than what this was.  (Barring the dragon dance, I mean, which would have been like Schoenberg in the 14th century.)

[Tachi Rocinante]

3 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Can't get his...uh...dragon "rider ready," if you know what I mean. Problem with his...uh...red worm not wanting to, uh, take the sky, if you know what I mean. His...uh...blade...isn't exactly made of...valyrian steel, if you take my meaning.

He has dick problems. Just in case I was being too obtuse. :)

She was fairly attractive, and obviously intelligent.

Maybe she beat his ass and then pegged him for good measure.

Was Matt Smith born on a horse? He walks like he just took a juicy shit and didn't wipe well.

[Lady S.]

29 minutes ago, Lassus said:

I have a different take.  I neither think she's power hungry, nor lovestruck over Rhaenyra.  I honestly have the impression (justified or not) that she's more just tired and bitter from being forced into being this baby machine who has to worry about all this shit instead of being a very important woman in the realm but not the MOST important woman in the realm.  I think she's just angry in general.

EXACTLY. She can't lash out at Viserys or Otto but she can fight back against Rhaenyra once that resentment gets to be too much. Rhaenyra is the only one who's lied to her and her closest equal, so she gets the brunt of all that buried anger and unhappiness. (I mean, technically, she's outranked Otto for years but clearly she doesn't think of it that way and family loyalty is important to both of them.) This is a villainess origin story imo, and as a Cersei enjoyer, I can't wait to see how far she goes. (But I do also think the very repressed lesbian subtext is there too. Obviously not overt, that is the nature of subtext, and nobody's saying they were actually lovers before she married Viserys, but both Alicent actresses have endorsed the interpretation.) Her love for Rhaenyra is curdling into bitter hate and I find it delicious. Sorry for anyone still looking for clear heroes and heroines but maybe the House of Dragons, Murder, and Incest is the wrong show for that.

29 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

His feelings on the matter of queen / king are immaterial, he knows the realm won't just say "Hey cool!" and start selling a bunch of "I'm With Her" tee shirts. 

His feelings and family circumstances are hardly coincidental either. Let us not forget that Otto was the very first person on the girl power bandwagon urging Viserys to name Rhaenyra heir over Daemon. Would war be any less likely in an Aegon-less scenario if he really thought Daemon has no limits? In a war against a full Targ king, he'd be Rhaenyra's champion and leader of the I'm with her campaign. And again, Rhaenyra is not the typical real world princess when she rides a fucking dragon, so I don't think her cause would be hopelessly impossible if Otto joined his support to Viserys instead of seeking to undermine him. (The other problem is Viserys himself doing very little to secure the succession beyond words and now her marriage.) We've also seen Otto's brother pulling for their half-Hightower prince from the start of ep 3, where Otto said he wasn't sure Viserys saw it the same way and Lord Hobart told him to make the king see. They're not calling Aegon the conqueror-babe out of sheer pragmatism. Lord Hightower pressures Ser Otto and Otto leans on Alicent. It's the same family ambition that drove the Lannisters and Tyrells in GoT. 

Cleaving to Rhaenyra and hoping for mercy is not a bad strategy when Rhaenyra's hardly ready to kill Alicent and her kids yet. Alicent's just done being on Rhaenyra's side. I'm sure she tells herself she only betrayed Rhaenyra on her father's orders and the king's own wishes, but nobody made Rhaenyra bang her Kingsguard or do whatever with Daemon. That hussy thinks she can do whatever she wants while Alicent does her duty as a daughter and a wife. And she gets the luxury of access to Plan T!!! One gets sex with a hot young guy with the possibility of no pregnancy while the other lays like a cold fish under a husband rotting to death knowing it could bring another crying royal brat. Green has more than one obvious symbolic meaning, methinks.

Updated for 1.05.

[ajsnaves]

Every wedding in Westeros should involve someone named Joffrey getting brutally murdered. 

[Cristofle]

13 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Cleaving to Rhaenyra and hoping for mercy is not a bad strategy when Rhaenyra's hardly ready to kill Alicent and her kids yet. Alicent's just done being on Rhaenyra's side. I'm sure she tells herself she only betrayed Rhaenyra on her father's orders and the king's own wishes, but nobody made Rhaenyra bang her Kingsguard or do whatever with Daemon. That hussy thinks she can do whatever she wants while Alicent does her duty as a daughter and a wife. And she gets the luxury of access to Plan T!!! One gets sex with a hot young guy with the possibility of no pregnancy while the other lays like a cold fish under a husband rotting to death knowing it could bring another crying royal brat. Green has more than one obvious symbolic meaning, methinks.

Interesting theory! And honestly, it works for me more than either she's incredibly power hungry and scheming (not really shown so far) or she's a devoted mother only protecting her son (if she's anything but unhappily resigned to be a babymaker, she's yet to show it. And that just was not her overall arc in this episode. Otto mentioned it in the beginning and she was shaken, but then she took a hard turn to being obsessed over Rhaenyra's sex life and never left that mode for the rest of the episode). I could believe she is trying to tell herself this is a new aspect of her duty...but really, she's just angry. Rhaneyra is getting such a level of agency that Alicent never had and fundamentally, Alicent feels it's furiously unfair. 

[MyArchangel]

19 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Even with Queen Alicent's support, I don't see how Ser Criston can beat the rap after killing one of the guests. Nothing plausible that is.

I got the feeling it was more than just one night. In fact I thought it was more than that as Rhaenyra to me at least hinted that it was but maybe I just misread it. Frankly I think Alicent is jealous and wants Ser Criston for herself, hence why she stopped him in the garden from killing himself. 

[jane1978]

1 hour ago, Avabelle said:

Agree. That scene of her rocking the crying child while looking completely detached was just sad. I think she’s ultimately a good mother but I don’t buy at this moment she’s driven by any great devotion to them.

I think Otto and probably Alicent at the back of her mind assumed that Vicerys would back down once a son was born. Now that it’s not looking likely they’re panicking. 

This is her third??? child in 5 years? I don´t think even the best mother of the world would be excited with yet another child crying endlessly in her arms. Yet she is still there personally taking care of him/her.

I think she is just tired and feels utterly betrayed. And I think the show portrayed the change well. We saw how first she liked and respected the king. She was not into him THAT way, but she didn´t mind his company and he even asked for her advice here and there. But then they´ve got married and he started to treat her more as the broodmare and personal pleaser and caretaker. She felt she is giving him best and gets nothing in return. 

And on top of that she went through all that drama with Rhaenyra. Whenever Rhae did something questionable and she had an oppurtinity to use it against her she never did. She always defended her. And then she discovers not only that Rhae lied to her about her virginity, but the king knew that and still unjustly fired her father just to protect his daughter´s position. 

So I think sir Cole´s confession was the last straw. And you can tell when she enters the wedding she now just fully hates both the king and Rhaenyra. And she is done with always putting them first.

Kind of sad, because I think one honest talk/fight between the two girls would probably resolve everything. But HOD is ultimately just a very expensive soap in a fantasy settings and huge misunderstandings resulting in years long conflict is a staple of the genre.

[Dac22]

16 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Luckily for him, Alicent probably has need for him, so I guess this will keep him in the game for a little while longer.

In an interview discussing the episode, Emily Carey essentially provides an explanation for why Alicent gave him a pass for breaking his vows and why she followed him out into the Godswood.

But since the show hasn't firmly established it, I'm not sure I can actively discuss it in this thread?

Edited September 19, 2022 by Dac22

[paigow]

Ser Criston set the precedent for Walder Frey / Roose Bolton wedding ideas....

[Avabelle]

16 minutes ago, jane1978 said:

And on top of that she went through all that drama with Rhaenyra. Whenever Rhae did something questionable and she had an oppurtinity to use it against her she never did. She always defended her. And then she discovers not only that Rhae lied to her about her virginity, but the king knew that and still unjustly fired her father just to protect his daughter´s position. 

What has Rhaenaya done that needed her defending? Bar the maidenhood which is really nothing to do with Alicent. I don’t get why Rhaenyra should be indebted to her. I don’t even really get how Rhaenyra tolerates her given the sneaky seduction of pops.

Id also argue that Otto was not unjustly fired. His motives as the kings Hand were long twisted as he wanted to get his family on the throne as soon as the queen died. Even if a peaceful rise to the throne for Rhaenyra was guaranteed he would still be meddling. He didn’t have the best interests of the King or the realm.

22 minutes ago, jane1978 said:

So I think sir Cole´s confession was the last straw. And you can tell when she enters the wedding she now just fully hates both the king and Rhaenyra. And she is done with always putting them first.

She serves the king and puts her duty as his queen first but I don’t think her turning is a result of anything awful either of them did. She was just sick of her life and ready to turn. She wants Ageon on the throne - probably for his survival and to make it up to her dad - and needed a way to justify it to herself. I just don’t see her as the victim when it comes to the breakdown in her friendship with Rhaenyra. 

[ZeeEnnui]

8 minutes ago, jane1978 said:

This is her third??? child in 5 years? I don´t think even the best mother of the world would be excited with yet another child crying endlessly in her arms. Yet she is still there personally taking care of him/her.

I think she is just tired and feels utterly betrayed. And I think the show portrayed the change well. We saw how first she liked and respected the king. She was not into him THAT way, but she didn´t mind his company and he even asked for her advice here and there. But then they´ve got married and he started to treat her more as the broodmare and personal pleaser and caretaker. She felt she is giving him best and gets nothing in return. 

And on top of that she went through all that drama with Rhaenyra. Whenever Rhae did something questionable and she had an oppurtinity to use it against her she never did. She always defended her. And then she discovers not only that Rhae lied to her about her virginity, but the king knew that and still unjustly fired her father just to protect his daughter´s position. 

So I think sir Cole´s confession was the last straw. And you can tell when she enters the wedding she now just fully hates both the king and Rhaenyra. And she is done with always putting them first.

Kind of sad, because I think one honest talk/fight between the two girls would probably resolve everything. But HOD is ultimately just a very expensive soap in a fantasy settings and huge misunderstandings resulting in years long conflict is a staple of the genre.

Yes to all of this. 

I think that yes jealousy plays a role in this for Alicent. I mean, I'd be jealous of Rhaenyra's freedom too. But Alicent talked about feeling isolated and alone. After 2-3 icy years between Alicent and Rhaenyra, it felt like they'd overcome the "you married my scabby dad" hump and were rebuilding their friendship. Alicent had an ally she could trust again. More importantly, it was a friend that made her feel like her old self before being pimped out to be an Easy Bake Baby Oven for white-haired babies. So, when the rumors about Rhaenyra started, of course, Alicent leapt to her defense. Her best friend wouldn't lie to her! While Rhaenyra didn't technically lie to Alicent about having sex with Matt Daemon, they at least got to second base, she did not see a weepy Kingsguard swiping her bffs V-card. Is who Rhaenyra sleeps with none of Alicent (or anyone's) biz? One hundred percent. But Alicent put her reputation on the line to defend Rhaenyra like a good friend. And kept defending her against anyone who talked shit about her. In Alicent's mind (and she's still a teenage girl remember), this is a huge betrayal. If Rhaenyra can lie to her face, maybe Otto is right, and she will kill her children one day. This is before burn books, so Alicent puts on a green dress and says "game on, bitches."

End of the day, the whole situation is a mess. But that makes for some good TV so I'm looking to see how it all plays out. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

Viserys : It's long past time our houses are united in blood.

Rhaenys Targaryen Velaryon is standing right there, buddy, I am pretty sure your houses are united already.🙂

Also, Viserys needing to basically beg Corlys to agree for Laenor to marry his daughter when she is by far the best match any man in the kingdom to make was bizarre. They try to make everything so dramatic and tense that it turns into stupid way too often.

So many nonsensical moments in this episode. Alicent going to interrogate Criston, as if she had the script and had a reason to believe he would tell her or even know anything. Criston begging a more merciful sentence from her, as if she can pass sentences. Everyone staying back and watching curiously while Criston bashes that poor guy's face in. Rhea hunting all by her lonesome and Daemon magically spooking her horse. Criston thinking there was the slightest chance Rhaenyra would elope with him or that they wouldn't be chased to the ends of... what is that world called again? Planetos? Joffrey magically guessing who Rhaenyra's paramour was.

I can deal with characters acting like morons to get the plot from point A to point B is said plot is interesting and/or there are at least some characters to root for. Here, the plot is... I don't know, we are waiting for the upcoming civil war, I guess. Not exactly gripping so far. And there is nobody to root for. Usually I would be rooting for someone to wipe that smirk off Daemon's face but in this case his intrigues are so painfully obvious that his downfall would be more like "finally, what took you so long, you idiots?". Plus, he is at least more entertaining than his brother. But none of these people is going to make a good king or queen (well, maybe Alicent might but she has no claim). So why root for anyone? If it wasn't based on a book and there weren't several more seasons planned, I would be rooting for all of the main characters to kill each other, so the realm would have a chance to get a ruler with a clue. :)

Edited September 19, 2022 by Jack Shaftoe

[paigow]

How did face switching in Braavos work? The face had to be someone already dead? I got a feeling that Daemon is going to hire an assassin... maybe to eliminate Corlys but frame Ser Criston....

Edited September 19, 2022 by paigow

[cambridgeguy]

1 minute ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Also, Viserys needing to basically beg Corlys to agree for Laenor to marry his daughter when she is by far the best match any man in the kingdom to make was bizarre. They try to make everything so dramatic and tense that it turns into stupid way too often.

She's not the best match if you think the rest of the realm will reject her as ruler.  Plus Corlys knows Viserys needs him (and Viserys is kind of a pushover) so he was able to dictate terms in a way that would have gotten him tossed in a dungeon by more assertive kings.

3 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

So many nonsensical moments in this episode. Alicent going to interrogate Criston, as if she had the script and had a reason to believe he would tell her or even know anything. Criston begging a more merciless sentence from her, as if she can pass sentences.

Who else would be most likely to know what Rhaenyra was up to?  If her bodyguard is not aware of what she's doing then he's pretty bad at his job.  Admittedly she had no reason to suspect she could get him to spill the beans, but she did have her rank to throw around.  No, she can't overrule the King, but she can (in theory) certainly influence him more than most other people.  She's just lucky that Viserys is a pushover because most spouses would be livid over her deliberately showing up late and upstaging him.

[Meredith Quill]

3 hours ago, Dac22 said:

I also think it's a case for a lot of people where they like Rhaenyra, so therefore they either twist the narrative to make her look better and/or ignore it completely. People do that for all characters.

If Rhaenyra had an ounce of respect or concern for him, she never would have put Criston in that place to begin with. 

Rhaenyra and Alicent should be around 28 at the next time-skip.

His initial choice was to leave the room which she took away. His second choice was to tell her to stop which she didn't.

Your argument seemingly is that someone's first two decisions/choices in the situation are completely invalid simply because another person ignores them.  Which, frankly, is messed up to me.

All his choices were valid and he should have been allowed to leave when he wanted to leave.

3 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

He said no twice. It was coercion.  I think about Dany with her lover before she came to Westeros and how more balanced it felt. 

3 hours ago, Dac22 said:

I just don't understand the logic behind the idea that him trying to bolt from the room when he caught on to what she was doing is somehow deliberation or hesitation on his part. 

How is that not a firm choice he made that she ignored when blocking his exit?

I'm open to being swayed, but every counterpoint has basically been 'because I like Rhaenyra'. I like the character as well, but can acknowledge her character messed up there.

3 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Have to agree here...she's essentially his boss. Except if he starts pushing back on these demands, he's literally going to get killed in some horrible way. So yeah, I'm sure having sex with Rhaenyra was really pleasant at least, but it's not just somewoman he eventually came around to the idea on. Displease the princess...lose your post and probably more. Do what she wants, great, she's happy, but one loose lipped servant and you're gelded and sent to the wall if you're lucky. 

PS I hope we get to go to the wall. 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the first two times he said no/wanted to leave were both when he thought she was just messing/being playful with him - before he realised her true intent once she kissed him. Once he realised what she actually wanted, he hesitated a little but there were no refusals. 

I said elsewhere, regardless he had options - if he was concerned about offending her by turning her down flat, pretend to be unwell, double over in sudden pain, develop cramp - do something other than break your damn vow... he made his choice.

And yes she was wrong to offer herself to him in the first place.

[Cristofle]

5 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

She's just lucky that Viserys is a pushover because most spouses would be livid over her deliberately showing up late and upstaging him.

Paddy was great in that moment - you see how angry he is, that he absolutely knows she is deliberately disrepecting him, but Viserys just isn't the type to openly challenge or scold her, so he simply tucks it away. 

Viserys is clearly coming to an end soon, but I'm going to miss Paddy. His facial expressions are great. His reaction to Jason Lannister was hysterical - you can tell Dany is 1000% from his bloodline in this moment - and I also LOLed at his aggressively eating his food while he glared at Daemon and Rhaenyra like "You two CANNOT be pulling this crap on me RIGHT NOW!" 

[Dac22]

8 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the first two times he said no/wanted to leave were both when he thought she was just messing/being playful with him - before he realised her true intent once she kissed him. 

He told her to stop while she was undressing after she had already forced a kiss onto him. I think her intentions were quite clear by then.

[Meredith Quill]

Just now, Dac22 said:

He told her to stop while she was undressing after she had already forced a kiss onto him. I think her intentions were quite clear by then.

I read that as shock/hesitation because it was a very meek and brief objection in a 'wait what?' manner but ymmv.  As I said, he could've found an alternative way out of that particular situation without point blank refusing if he'd really wanted to - he didn't.

[Dac22]

2 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

I read that as shock/hesitation because it was a very meek and brief objection in a 'wait what?' manner but ymmv.  As I said, he could've found an alternative way out of that particular situation without point blank refusing if he'd really wanted to - he didn't.

While I suppose it's open for interpretation, I thought Rhaenyra gave him the textbook "I want you" look which is why he bolted for the door. 

My interpretation of the scene is that Criston caught on pretty quick to what she was up to, and since he knew he was susceptible to giving into desire, he tried to detach himself from the situation multiple times.

She simply wouldn't let him and thus he did end up giving into his desire in the end. But because he wanted to keep his vows and honor, he did his best to resist her for as long as he did.  

It's the idea that Criston should essentially have to stab himself to get out of the situation that perplexes me here.

[Dewey Decimate]

I can totally see both nuanced sides of the initial Rhaenyra-Criston sexytimes, and started considering if the genders were reversed, but the first example I imagined was Prince Tommen and Brienne of Tarth, and now I can't stop giggling at the vision of him scaling her like a mountain to remove her breastplate.

[Meredith Quill]

1 minute ago, Dac22 said:

While I suppose it's open for interpretation, I thought Rhaenyra gave him the textbook "I want you" look which is why he bolted for the door. 

My interpretation of the scene is that Criston caught on pretty quick to what she was up to, and since he knew he was susceptible to giving into desire, he tried to detach himself from the situation multiple times.

She simply wouldn't let him and thus he did end up giving into his desire in the end. But because he wanted to keep his vows and honor, he did his best to resist her for as long as he did.  

Fair enough, we have different takes on how it happened.

3 minutes ago, Dac22 said:

It's the idea that Criston should essentially have to stab himself to get out of the situation that perplexes me here.

We're essentially having the same conversation in two topics. I've replied regarding this in the other place. Basically, sometimes you gotta do whatever it takes to extract yourself from a situation.

[jeansheridan]

Being morally flexible might be one way to succeed in the world of HOD. All the rigid characters get crushed (like dear Ned who turned out DID keep a secret very well for 18 years). Rhynaera is very flexible for now. 

Also I don't think she really wanted Daemon to kidnap her. She was poking at him just like his wife did. She's annoyed with his chaos making antics. In her head things are mostly settled for now. And then he has to be an idiot. And Criston too from her POV. Only Laertes? Seems agreeable.  

Also possibly unpopular but Ser Criston can die any time now. I find the actor super flat and one note. 

[ursula]

43 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the first two times he said no/wanted to leave were both when he thought she was just messing/being playful with him - before he realised her true intent once she kissed him.

He said stop after she kissed him.

[Meredith Quill]

1 minute ago, ursula said:

He said stop after she kissed him.

30 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

I read that as shock/hesitation because it was a very meek and brief objection in a 'wait what?' manner but ymmv.  As I said, he could've found an alternative way out of that particular situation without point blank refusing if he'd really wanted to - he didn't.

As I said here^

[ursula]

29 minutes ago, Dac22 said:

It's the idea that Criston should essentially have to stab himself to get out of the situation that perplexes me here.

This though. It’s, to put it delicately, threads too close to victim blaming.

“Well why didn’t he try to leave?”

He did.

“Well why didn’t he tell her to stop?”

He did.

“Well he should have done something… because if he really didn’t want this, he would have found a way to prevent it so it’s his fault that it happened and he should suck it up.” (Literally if need be. 🤣)

Edited September 19, 2022 by ursula

[Meredith Quill]

I think this is being viewed from a variety of perspectives.

My take is he didn't try to leave at all once he knew her true intentions. He told to stop feebly then apparently changed his mind once the initial shock of realisation had passed. There's no victim to blame here imo.

All I know is that if I were put in a situation that I wanted to free myself from I would do so by any means necessary. Hang what I should do - I would do whatever I had to do. Path of least resistance if that's what it took. 

[magdalene]

4 hours ago, Dac22 said:

If Rhaenyra had an ounce of respect or concern for him, she never would have put Criston in that place to begin with. 

Especially if she knew what the punishment is for Kings Guard who get caught breaking their vows.

I saw a parallel this episode between Criston and Daemon.  Obviously, in general they are nothing alike but they do have one thing in common, they both are trained killers with combat experience, men ready to do violence at the drop of a hat. You don't ever want to be the trigger with men like that. Which is of course easier in theory.  Joffrey unfortunately was the last straw for Criston.  I can't be certain that Daemon was set on becoming a widower that day -would the outcome have been the same had she but spoken civilly to him?

[ursula]

2 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

My take is he didn't try to leave at all once he knew her true intentions.

He couldn’t try to leave since she was literally barring the door, trapping him inside with her. The only way he could leave was by touching her.

3 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

He told to stop feebly then apparently changed his mind once the initial shock of realisation had passed

No means No. It shouldn’t matter how feebly it’s uttered. Especially when that feebleness is based on the realization that there was no good outcome for him regardless of what he did next. 
 

6 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

There's no victim to blame here imo.

Which goes back to what I said is enlightening about this. That people have a hard time seeing men as victim of sexual coercion and women as perpetuators. It doesn’t “fit” what we think this should look like so we rationalize stuff eg (the Stop was feeble) or revise the actual events that happened (not remembering that he said Stop).

[Meredith Quill]

10 minutes ago, magdalene said:

Especially if she knew what the punishment is for Kings Guard who get caught breaking their vows.

I saw a parallel this episode between Criston and Daemon.  Obviously, in general they are nothing alike but they do have one thing in common, they both are trained killers with combat experience, men ready to do violence at the drop of a hat. You don't ever want to be the trigger with men like that. Which is of course easier in theory.  Joffrey unfortunately was the last straw for Criston.  I can't be certain that Daemon was set on becoming a widower that day -would the outcome have been the same had she but spoken civilly to him?

I agree she was wrong for instigating it 100% and even Cole himself said

Quote

"At her instigation it is true but that is no excuse"

- so he apparently didn't think he acted under duress either.

[Meredith Quill]

2 minutes ago, ursula said:

He couldn’t try to leave since she was literally barring the door, trapping him inside with her. The only way he could leave was by touching her.

No means No. It shouldn’t matter how feebly it’s uttered. Especially when that feebleness is based on the realization that there was no good outcome for him regardless of what he did next. 
 

Which goes back to what I said is enlightening about this. That people have a hard time seeing men as victim of sexual coercion and women as perpetuators. It doesn’t “fit” what we think this should look like so we rationalize stuff eg (the Stop was feeble) or revise the actual events that happened (not remembering that he said Stop).

The door wasn't blocked once she moved away from it. He was no longer trapped. No means no, totally agree, however, his actions belied his words. He didn't leave after that (once the door was unblocked) and sometimes people change their minds; actions speak louder than words etc. 

No event revision, just a poor memory sometimes, hence the 'correct me if I'm wrong' from my initial post. My point about the stop being feeble is because he followed it up by not leaving at the first available opportunity directly after saying that and in fact, did the total opposite.