S06.E09: Fun and Games

[Starchild]

8 hours ago, aghst said:

A few episodes ago, they showed life at home for Howard.  Seemed like the wife wasn't too fond of him.  Howard even admitted he had marital problems didn't he?

Now she's the grieving widow?

So Kim figuratively twists the knife one last time and then she immediately develop a conscience?  She had rating hate for him, to sustain the big con they planned and executed.

Suddenly just decided to tap out?  Hmm, sure she finally saw herself and recognized that together, they hurt people.

Meanwhile, heartbroken Jimmy goes all-in on Saul Goodman because his sweetie left him?

A deteriorating relationship is a messy, complex thing. We can't reasonably make any snap judgements about how a couple's relationship may advance or retreat based on a single interaction. We saw them together only once. Howard gave the impression he wanted them to remain married. Cheryl didn't. 

But those are just impressions. That doesn't necessarily translate to hate. It doesn't mean they might never reconcile; he apparently still has hope, and he's proven himself to be relatively clear-sighted most of the time. In a show that proffers extremely well-constructed characters, I'm not prepared to say they went two-dimensional on Cheryl.

Speaking of character nuance, I do agree that some of the other developments seem like a stretch. G&G are very good at trusting their audience, giving us just enough detail for things to make sense, not overdoing it. But I feel that, for the changes in Kim and Saul from who they have been so far, the writers are uncharacteristically making the audience do more of the heavy lifting than usual. 

Going from the Kim who used a cruel lie to devastate a widow, to the Kim abandoning her current life to prevent even worse crimes, in the space of an elevator ride, was almost too sudden. But I can accept that more easily than Jimmy's final change.

The cognitive dissonance is even more noticeable with Jimmy and the time jump. I am missing some of the threads that lead from Jimmy on the day of Howard's memorial service, to strip-mall Saul, associating with sex workers (who might remind him of Kim), thinking nothing of sending someone to Belize. People don't change like flipping a switch. A big betrayal like Jimmy suffered could easily lead to someone like Saul, but it's a journey, not a flashbulb.

It reminds me a bit of the first season of "Fear the Walking Dead." When the show was announced we were promised a view of the beginning of the zombie apocalypse, something missing from the original show because we picked it up a month in, when Rick woke from his coma. But then, they focused on a few people trapped in close locations for those first few weeks, and by the time they emerged into the larger world, the collapse of society was over, and we were in the same place Rick was when he woke up. Bait and switch.

I live for character dramas, and to me, some of the beats between the two versions of this man are missing. I can accept that, with the time jump, the character journey from Jimmy to Saul did happen, but I wish I'd seen at least some of it. I can only hope that might still be coming in some carefully placed flashbacks.

[Bannon]

13 hours ago, Starchild said:

I wonder if the series finale will have Gene finally coming to terms with everything, with brutal honestly about himself. That seems fitting, live or die.

I've already gone through a couple of interpretations of the scene between Kim and Cheryl, and I've been rethinking it yet again. 

Previously, I thought she had her revelation of "too far, it's time to get out of here" when they were on their way down to the parking garage. She already knew it was over and she was leaving, and she gave Jimmy that goodbye kiss.

But now I'm thinking that she made the decision before she shattered Cheryl. She saw Jimmy floundering, figured if this went on much longer he would expose himself out of guilt, and decided to shut Cheryl down then and there to protect him. I don't think she wanted to do it, but she needed to for Jimmy. 

And then it was time to leave, to save both of them.

I was disappointed with how things were left with Cliff. I thought he might make at least a half-hearted effort to give Howard the benefit of the doubt and try to investigate. But it seems not.

I see it differently. I agree she burned her soul, but not to give Cheryl closure. It was to give Jimmy cover.

Because all of that would implicate Jimmy and she wants to protect him.

Jimmy has the option of doing the right thing as well.

Cliff does appear to be pretty much a dim bulb in this episode, apparently not even curious enough to follow up with Howard's assistant with regard to how the contact number for the PI firm was changed. I don't know where the writers are going to go with this now, and if they don't take it any further, this episode provided enough weight to the consequence of Howard's murder to not affect my enjoyment of the story. Having said that, if they leave it here, I will kind of see it, in terms of a rare instance of weaker plotting by these writers, like I saw Walt being able to have the Aryans simulteaneously assassinate multiple witnesses in multiple prisons in multiple states. Cheryl's an intelligent woman, a doctor or lawyer herself, I believe. She thinks the story of Howard's drug addiction is a lie. Certainly she would realize that Howard's hair, in his hair brush at home, or even recovered from the Jag, would establish that it was extremely unlikely that Howard was a drug addict.

Like I said, they've given sufficient weight, in terms of consequences, to Howard's murder, to make it work for me, and when the end of a very long story like this is in sight, it can be hard to resolve everything in the time available. Not the most airtight plotting they've done, however.

[SimplexFish]

You would thing that all these turn of events in Jimmy's life, all within a few days, including his love leaving because of everything, it would make him NOT turn into Saul but just the opposite, realizing that being a POS has cost him so much. Of course, this is not how the show proceeds...

[Emma Snyder]

17 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

I'm absolutely fascinated by the Kim/Paige friendship and would love to see it explored more deeply.

For someone who wasn't a particularly major character, I was fascinated by Paige and her friendship with Kim as well. Glad to see I'm not the only one 🙂

[Bannon]

3 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Who invited a difficult conversation at the wake?  Why, that would be Cheryl.

Saul offered a gracious and appropriate sorrow for her loss.  What does she do?

She lights into him.  Totally inappropriate. 

Neither Saul nor Kim were looking for a fight.  Cheryl threw the first punch.  It's understandable that Cheryl chose to confront Saul.  But, that doesn't make it right.  Too bad, so sad that she ended up being knocked out.

What's inappropriate about voicing displeasure at the man who vandalized your dead husband's car, and did other things to harrass him, lied about doing so, never atoned for that behavior, and now is pretending none of that happened, as he expresses condolences? 

[PeterPirate]

8 minutes ago, Starchild said:

The cognitive dissonance is even more noticeable with Jimmy and the time jump. I am missing some of the threads that lead from Jimmy on the day of Howard's memorial service, to strip-mall Saul, associating with sex workers (who might remind him of Kim), thinking nothing of sending someone to Belize. People don't change like flipping a switch. A big betrayal like Jimmy suffered could easily lead to someone like Saul, but it's a journey, not a flashbulb.  

There's still more than two years left in the Jimmy timeline before he meets Walt and Jesse and Badger.  Plenty of time for Saul to emerge--or to have more coats of the Saul persona painted over the remnants of Jimmy's core personality.  Kim leaving him will put that dynamic into overdrive.  More "reaction formation".   

[sistermagpie]

49 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I'm on Cheryl's side. She knew Howard, probably better than anyone else. She knew he was not a drug user, so she knew that the death, the suicide, everything, didn't make sense. But Cliff wasn't questioning it -- He had his biases re drug users -- and no one else was either. She knew that Jimmy was harassing Howard. I'm sure she knew first-hand about the bowling balls on the car. If someone would do that, who knows what else that person would do. 

So she's supposed to bite her tongue when faced with the man who was targeting her husband and was possibly responsible for his death? Should she think, "It is inappropriate to question this man at my husband's memorial, so I'll wait until later and visit him at his home." Uh, no. I think she was probably a lawyer, so questioning is in her DNA. Was it "inappropriate?" She did not raise her voice and make a scene. It was just the four of them. She was asking reasonable questions. Their marriage was in trouble, but she knew Howard and was trying to make sense of what happened. A "suicide" is not something one readily accepts if it makes no sense.

Agreed. As the widow--and she is the widow, whether or not they were separated--it's Cheryl who has the biggest say on what's appropriate. She's the main person dealing with the death here. Her confronting the guy her husband claimed (correctly) was harassing him and is now acting like nothing happened was perfectly appropriate imo. There was no one else there whose feelings they needed to respect by being polite.

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, Starchild said:

Going from the Kim who used a cruel lie to devastate a widow, to the Kim abandoning her current life to prevent even worse crimes, in the space of an elevator ride, was almost too sudden. But I can accept that more easily than Jimmy's final change.

I think a couple of people (here?) pointed out that Kim jumped in to save Jimmy. I can see that. (I really need to rewatch, hopefully today.) She saw that Jimmy's response to Cheryl was inadequate. It wasn't helping the situation at all. So she lied and deflected the guilt onto Cheryl. Kim wasn't in her crosshairs, except for being married to the guy who was harassing Howard, so Kim's lie was to help Jimmy. Maybe she decided that was her final lie.

And then she was out. As she explained so well, she recognized how toxic they were together. Bailing out of her occupation was a surprise, but she probably wanted to wash herself completely from this life. Maybe she could have remained a lawyer and moved to Santa Fe, but there would always be the chance of running into Jimmy again, as well as other people she knew. I don't know what's involved in becoming a lawyer in a different state. Another bar to pass? But I think she just wanted out of her entire past life.

Quote

The cognitive dissonance is even more noticeable with Jimmy and the time jump. I am missing some of the threads that lead from Jimmy on the day of Howard's memorial service, to strip-mall Saul, associating with sex workers (who might remind him of Kim), thinking nothing of sending someone to Belize. People don't change like flipping a switch. A big betrayal like Jimmy suffered could easily lead to someone like Saul, but it's a journey, not a flashbulb.

It did seem very sudden, but it makes sense narratively. I don't think we needed to see more steps toward Saul. There isn't time, and we've seen enuf steps along the way that this one big step, a shove off the cliff, was the last straw.

I can imagine that the final conversation with Kim threw his immorality into his face. He couldn't ignore it or deflect like he did with Howard after Chuck's death. PLUS she was the one who pushed him to do this to Howard. And now she's bailing? His love for her -- "So what?" -- was pointless. He sees himself as having lived an unloved life. There's no one who would really care for him, so he might as well live it up, pay for companionship, do what he does best and hustle and razzle-dazzle. 

I don't think a switch was simply flipped. He probably drowned himself in booze for a while. Maybe Francesca called him repeatedly about clients. He has to earn a living, so he goes back to work. I don't know how soon he would get his Sandpiper money, but that might have set him off to just go with the flow and live the high life.

Edited July 20, 2022 by peeayebee

[aghst]

1 hour ago, Starchild said:

A deteriorating relationship is a messy, complex thing. We can't reasonably make any snap judgements about how a couple's relationship may advance or retreat based on a single interaction. We saw them together only once. Howard gave the impression he wanted them to remain married. Cheryl didn't. 

But those are just impressions. That doesn't necessarily translate to hate. It doesn't mean they might never reconcile; he apparently still has hope, and he's proven himself to be relatively clear-sighted most of the time. In a show that proffers extremely well-constructed characters, I'm not prepared to say they went two-dimensional on Cheryl.

I never said Cheryl hated Howard.  She seemed indifferent to him.  They lived in the same house but it seemed like they had minimal interaction and certainly no love.

The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference.

That is why her getting emotional at the funeral and challenging Saul about Howard's alleged drug use is so jarring.

They gave a small snippet of their home life and nothing  indicated that she particularly cared about him.

Also, Jimmy and Kim's breakup didn't pack any emotional wallop for me either.  Was never convinced why they were together in the first place and the scenes of them together never conveyed some great passion between them.

There were some scenes of them settling into a routine at home, knowing each other's habits.  Looked like a normal couple, the kind you wouldn't be surprised to learn divorcing after a couple of years.

It would be more convincing if she left him right after witnessing Howard being murdered and being terrorized by Lalo, not some time afterwards, when they went back to their work routine and then attending the funeral.

[aghst]

BCS is justly Emmy-nominated for things like sound and cinematography, in addition to the writing and acting nominations.

They often use creative shots.  No doubt cinematographer likes working on the show.

But there was one shot which was unrealistic, when Jimmy and his secretary stood right under the giant sign that a huge crane was living onto the roof of his office.

They shot it from above, through the sign with Jimmy and the secretary visible below.

Cool shot but they'd never stand under a heavy object like that suspended in the air.  Even if they wanted to, the construction firm wouldn't allow them, probably risk to their license.

[SimplexFish]

Yall know we aren't assured that Kim just drove off into the sunset at the end of 6-9, we didn't see her get in her car and leave. Maybe something happens to her in the next episode before she gets that opportunity? She aint gone til shes gone...

Another thought don't ya think that Kim so suddenly resigning as a lawyer and leaving her husband will look a lil suspect to Cliff and everyone else that is scrutinizing what happen to Howard? They would certainly be wondering if indeed J&K really had something to do with the entire situation as the respected Howard said with in erratic decisions...wouldn't they?  

[ilovebeaarthur]

22 hours ago, carrps said:

Maybe it was just me (and we didn't get a good look at her), but I thought the hooker in Saul's bed looked a lot like Kim in the face.

I thought it was Kim at first until I realized it was a hooker 

[limestation]

Well...at least she got out alive. Which is more than I can say about others in the BCS/BB orbit.

Gus having that glass of wine? Why does every single conversation have to point to something else?!!! Sometimes, people just TALK TO EACH OTHER with no sinister/ulterior motives!

Edited July 20, 2022 by limestation

[Cinnabon]

2 hours ago, Emma Snyder said:

For someone who wasn't a particularly major character, I was fascinated by Paige and her friendship with Kim as well. Glad to see I'm not the only one 🙂

Speaking of women we can’t stand . . . Lol.

[scenario]

13 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

Yall know we aren't assured that Kim just drove off into the sunset at the end of 6-9, we didn't see her get in her car and leave. Maybe something happens to her in the next episode before she gets that opportunity? She aint gone til shes gone...

Another thought don't ya think that Kim so suddenly resigning as a lawyer and leaving her husband will look a lil suspect to Cliff and everyone else that is scrutinizing what happen to Howard? They would certainly be wondering if indeed J&K really had something to do with the entire situation as the respected Howard said with in erratic decisions...wouldn't they?  

By the official story, Howard was her mentor. He helped her to become a lawyer. He marriage was collapsing behind the scenes. She went through a mid life crisis and threw it all away. 

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

Also, Jimmy and Kim's breakup didn't pack any emotional wallop for me either.  Was never convinced why they were together in the first place and the scenes of them together never conveyed some great passion between them.

I don’t know if you’re married, but “comfortable “ describes the majority of couples I know who’ve been together long term. And I come from a family where both sets of grandparents and my own parents are were all married more than 50 years. There may be passion in the beginning, but it usually fades into a comfortable togetherness.  No PDA or outward declarations of love necessary. They say the most secure couples are the ones who don’t post about each other online, for good reason.  Jimmy and Kim had been together for years and had settled into a comfortable happiness, imo. In my experience, this indicates a secure relationship. 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Cinnabon

[SimplexFish]

36 minutes ago, ilovebeaarthur said:

I thought it was Kim at first until I realized it was a hooker 

Maybe it was Kim and that's new profession? Saul does dress very pimpish

[Colorado David]

30 minutes ago, limestation said:

Gus having that glass of wine? Why does every single conversation have to point to something else?!!! Sometimes, people just TALK TO EACH OTHER with no sinister/ulterior motives!

Agreed. Even if they are both gay, it doesn't mean something has to happen. I talk to my gay and straight friends like Gus talked - it's not flirtatious, it's being friendly and open. I think more is being read into that talk than was intended. Just my opinion.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

I never said Cheryl hated Howard.  She seemed indifferent to him.  They lived in the same house but it seemed like they had minimal interaction and certainly no love.

The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference.

That is why her getting emotional at the funeral and challenging Saul about Howard's alleged drug use is so jarring.

They gave a small snippet of their home life and nothing  indicated that she particularly cared about him.

The fact that they were married indicates that she cared about him, imo. That is, she cared about him enough to marry him at one point. By this season it seems she thinks it's over, she's not into talking about the "important things" they need to fix the marriage. But that level of indifference doesn't mean that she wouldn't be genuinely distressed at the guy disappearing in an apparent suicide due to a drug problem she thinks is fishy. That's the kind of situation that's going to bring up all the love or other feelings she still had for him, no matter how unwilling she was to stay married to him. In fact, if she didn't want to work on the marriage appearing indifferent to him and not revealing any remaining feelings, would make sense because she wouldn't want to give him hope in that direction. That's pretty common, imo.

Quote

Agreed. Even if they are both gay, it doesn't mean something has to happen. I talk to my gay and straight friends like Gus talked - it's not flirtatious, it's being friendly and open. I think more is being read into that talk than was intended. Just my opinion.

But if they're just having a chat that isn't going to lead to anything more (sexual or not) there was no reason for Gus to leave. He was cutting off something that could have become important to him.

Edited July 20, 2022 by sistermagpie

[PeterPirate]

I still think the sommelier gave Gus the brush-off.  

"I'm saving a bottle for a special occasion."
"I would love to hear about it when you have that occasion."  

Maybe I'm just a little too sensitive from being on the receiving end of such responses.  

Also, I know Reed Diamond from Judging Amy.  I'm not proud of that. 

Edited July 20, 2022 by PeterPirate

[aghst]

24 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I don’t know if you’re married, but “comfortable “ describes the majority of couples I know who’ve been together long term. And I come from a family where both sets of grandparents and my own parents are were all married more than 50 years. There may be passion in the beginning, but it usually fades into a comfortable togetherness.  No PDA or outward declarations of love necessary. They say the most secure couples are the ones who don’t post about each other online, for good reason.  Jimmy and Kim had been together for years and had settled into a comfortable happiness, imo. In my experience, this indicates a secure relationship. 

By the time Kim was introduced, it seemed like there had already been something between them or at least there was some mutual attraction in season 1.

Again, I don't recollect that they showed why they made sense as a couple.  She was some whiz kid as a girl, he was practicing his grift as a boy.

The other thing is, Kim can recognize that they were bad around each other and harmed others.  I can't believe this was the first time she noticed it.

I don't recall a serious conversation between them questioning whether they should keep doing what they were doing.  Jimmy was about to give up because it would be too difficult and she told him they were going to do it.

Otherwise, they didn't show each other their conscience.

If they had expressed misgivings, they might also have talked about changing their behavior.  But no, she was going to bail on the whole relationship, no discussion, no attempt to work out or course correct?

How about "lets stop doing this" or "lets go to counseling" or "let's try change and then if it doesn't work, we can part ways."

BCS gets a lot of love, justifiably.  But it's not perfect.

This breakup and even the relationship, doesn't ring true.

[gallimaufry]

3 minutes ago, aghst said:

I don't recall a serious conversation between them questioning whether they should keep doing what they were doing.  Jimmy was about to give up because it would be too difficult and she told him they were going to do it.

Otherwise, they didn't show each other their conscience.

If they had expressed misgivings, they might also have talked about changing their behavior.  But no, she was going to bail on the whole relationship, no discussion, no attempt to work out or course correct?

How about "lets stop doing this" or "lets go to counseling" or "let's try change and then if it doesn't work, we can part ways."

BCS gets a lot of love, justifiably.  But it's not perfect.

This breakup and even the relationship, doesn't ring true.

While I agree there are flaws in the way they've been written, I'm not sure Kim's abrupt exit is one of them.  They came to a similar breaking point in 506 and Kim couldn't bear to face reality so she instead solved a different problem and they got married.  She is forever hitting brick walls and abruptly leaving -- HHM, S&C after the interview, Mesa Verde, S&C the second time.  His history is of one of avoiding introspection and accountability - he couldn't handle it with Chuck and he didn't even try Kim's therapist.  These aren't healthy relationship choices but they're squarely in the pattern of their previous behaviours I think.

[peeayebee]

38 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But if they're just having a chat that isn't going to lead to anything more (sexual or not) there was no reason for Gus to leave. He was cutting off something that could have become important to him.

Also, this is a TV show. The writers aren't going to have a scene that's just about two guys chatting about wine. If the purpose of scene is unclear, a viewer should think, What's this scene for? What's really going on?

13 minutes ago, aghst said:

The other thing is, Kim can recognize that they were bad around each other and harmed others.  I can't believe this was the first time she noticed it.

She was having FUN! Yes, she knew they were harming others, but she justified it in her mind by saying they deserved it. She was saying that about Howard. It took an earth-shattering experience to wake her up.

[Penman61]

45 minutes ago, Colorado David said:

Agreed. Even if they are both gay, it doesn't mean something has to happen. I talk to my gay and straight friends like Gus talked - it's not flirtatious, it's being friendly and open. I think more is being read into that talk than was intended. Just my opinion.

But if it was just "friendly and open," why did Gus leave abruptly? Why did his whole affect suddenly change, from engaged and smiling ("Fring Smiles!" is 2022's "Garbo Laughs!") to...bitter? Frustrated? Anyway, something not happy. Maybe the sommelier was just having a friendly chat with a nice customer, but Gus was having something else.

[Eulipian 5k]

3 hours ago, Starchild said:

Going from the Kim who used a cruel lie to devastate a widow, to the Kim abandoning her current life to prevent even worse crimes, in the space of an elevator ride, was almost too sudden. But I can accept that more easily than Jimmy's final change.

The cognitive dissonance is even more noticeable with Jimmy and the time jump. I am missing some of the threads that lead from Jimmy on the day of Howard's memorial service, to strip-mall Saul, associating with sex workers (who might remind him of Kim), thinking nothing of sending someone to Belize.

Kim spent a lot more time thinking and depressing over Lalo/Howard than the elevator ride. Lying to the dead guy's wife wasn't as devastating as knowing you played a part  in the guy's death.

Jimmy had a lot more trauma to face than Kim. He had ~5 guys explode and die in front of him, (before he could hear the gun shots!). AND the other dead guy reappearing to shoot his "frenemy". Rushing to find shelter under the shell of Saul Goodman couldn't happen fast enuf for him. If "Bag Man" and "Plan & Execution" didn't change Jimmy, nothing did.  No new character is needed to cause a change, and the people who delayed Saul showing up, are dead and/or gone.

The time jump avoids the mundane "Jimmy and the film school crew" stuff we've already seen, as he builds his reputation.

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

But there was one shot which was unrealistic, when Jimmy and his secretary stood right under the giant sign that a huge crane was living onto the roof of his office.

What was unrealistic to me was Francesca standing so close to Jimmy knowing how much she disdains him.

Speaking of good women gone bad through association with Jimmy.  I loved the early Francesca who was happy to talk about Cracker Barrel all day with the old folk.

----------------------------------------

I thought Gus left the bar because, in the silence, the darkness of his other life swept over him and he could no longer sit there and enjoy pleasant conversation about beautiful vineyards.

They were all feeling the aftershock of the last few days and finding it much harder to compartmentalize their lives. I noticed Mike didn't seem to be ready to see his granddaughter yet.

[PeterPirate]

12 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Jimmy had a lot more trauma to face than Kim. He had ~5 guys explode and die in front of him, (before he could hear the gun shots!). AND the other dead guy reappearing to shoot his "frenemy". Rushing to find shelter under the shell of Saul Goodman couldn't happen fast enuf for him. If "Bag Man" and "Plan & Execution" didn't change Jimmy, nothing did.  No new character is needed to cause a change, and the people who delayed Saul showing up, are dead and/or gone.

In other words, it is Jimmy, not Kim, who is made of sterner stuff.

I have very mixed feelings about that.  

[Cinnabon]

36 minutes ago, aghst said:

By the time Kim was introduced, it seemed like there had already been something between them or at least there was some mutual attraction in season 1.

Again, I don't recollect that they showed why they made sense as a couple.  She was some whiz kid as a girl, he was practicing his grift as a boy.

The other thing is, Kim can recognize that they were bad around each other and harmed others.  I can't believe this was the first time she noticed it.

I don't recall a serious conversation between them questioning whether they should keep doing what they were doing.  Jimmy was about to give up because it would be too difficult and she told him they were going to do it.

Otherwise, they didn't show each other their conscience.

If they had expressed misgivings, they might also have talked about changing their behavior.  But no, she was going to bail on the whole relationship, no discussion, no attempt to work out or course correct?

How about "lets stop doing this" or "lets go to counseling" or "let's try change and then if it doesn't work, we can part ways."

BCS gets a lot of love, justifiably.  But it's not perfect.

This breakup and even the relationship, doesn't ring true.

I think they had worked together in the HHM mailroom for years while both were getting their law degrees. I don’t know how long they were a couple before we met them, but I think it was several years. They had a shared background and understood each other like no one else ever could. They didn’t have anyone else they could truly doubt on. The relationship made sense to me. 🤷‍♀️

16 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

enuf

Why do I keep seeing this in this thread? Is spellcheck going rogue? 🤣

[Cinnabon]

17 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Kim spent a lot more time thinking and depressing over Lalo/Howard than the elevator ride. Lying to the dead guy's wife wasn't as devastating as knowing you played a part  in the guy's death.

Jimmy had a lot more trauma to face than Kim. He had ~5 guys explode and die in front of him, (before he could hear the gun shots!). AND the other dead guy reappearing to shoot his "frenemy". Rushing to find shelter under the shell of Saul Goodman couldn't happen fast enuf for him. If "Bag Man" and "Plan & Execution" didn't change Jimmy, nothing did.  No new character is needed to cause a change, and the people who delayed Saul showing up, are dead and/or gone.

The time jump avoids the mundane "Jimmy and the film school crew" stuff we've already seen, as he builds his reputation.

Exactly. And I’m not sure Jimmy ever told Kim the full story about all of that. She saw the bullet holes in his mug, but I don’t know if he gave her all of the gory details 

6 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

In other words, it is Jimmy, not Kim, who is made of sterner stuff.

I have very mixed feelings about that.  

He’s definitely an expert at compartmentalizing things, but I don’t know if that makes him a stronger person. 

[Eulipian 5k]

7 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

In other words, it is Jimmy, not Kim, who is made of sterner stuff.

I have very mixed feelings about that.  

Everybody (who knew him, Chuck, Howard) has been telling us Jimmy is as unfeeling, vindictive, corrupt, and reckless as Saul.

Gus wanted no parts of Walt and Jessie; Saul didn't see beyond the money to be made and laundered.

[scenario]

52 minutes ago, aghst said:

By the time Kim was introduced, it seemed like there had already been something between them or at least there was some mutual attraction in season 1.

Again, I don't recollect that they showed why they made sense as a couple.  She was some whiz kid as a girl, he was practicing his grift as a boy.

The other thing is, Kim can recognize that they were bad around each other and harmed others.  I can't believe this was the first time she noticed it.

I don't recall a serious conversation between them questioning whether they should keep doing what they were doing.  Jimmy was about to give up because it would be too difficult and she told him they were going to do it.

Otherwise, they didn't show each other their conscience.

If they had expressed misgivings, they might also have talked about changing their behavior.  But no, she was going to bail on the whole relationship, no discussion, no attempt to work out or course correct?

How about "lets stop doing this" or "lets go to counseling" or "let's try change and then if it doesn't work, we can part ways."

BCS gets a lot of love, justifiably.  But it's not perfect.

This breakup and even the relationship, doesn't ring true.

Kim was a whiz kid as a child whose mother pushed her into being a grifter. She learned to love being a grifter. She got all her real happiness in life from being a grifter. Kim the Lawyer was the serious half of her but she wasn't having any fun.

Jimmy was just like her mother. He was fun. She felt alive being with him. She felt attracted to him because of what he was. They felt comfortable together. 

Kim and Jimmy are like two reformed drug addicts living together. They care about each other because they understand each other deeply. But then the temptation of drugs slowly creeps back in. One tries it just a little and the other encourages them. After some time they are both full fledged drug addicts again. Then one decides that even though they truly love each other they can't stay together for their own sanity.

Expecting everyone to behave rationally is a fools errand. What percentage of real people's real lives would be terrible scripts because they don't make sense. 

[Eulipian 5k]

19 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Why do I keep seeing this in this thread? Is spellcheck going rogue? 🤣

Oy! Waddabout: to=too, sounds like two. Enough already!😛

[scenario]

39 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

But if it was just "friendly and open," why did Gus leave abruptly? Why did his whole affect suddenly change, from engaged and smiling ("Fring Smiles!" is 2022's "Garbo Laughs!") to...bitter? Frustrated? Anyway, something not happy. Maybe the sommelier was just having a friendly chat with a nice customer, but Gus was having something else.

He was enjoying the conversation because it was the first normal conversation he'd had in a long while. But then he realized that it would never lead anywhere because he couldn't be in any sort of relationship and it was too painful for him. 

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Everybody (who knew him, Chuck, Howard) has been telling us Jimmy is as unfeeling, vindictive, corrupt, and reckless as Saul.

Or they've been telling Jimmy that's who he is so he's got more reason to believe it and become it.

9 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Gus wanted no parts of Walt and Jessie; Saul didn't see beyond the money to be made and laundered.

Did he not? Gus worked with both of them. Saul was smarter in that he didn't get personally involved with them. 

[PeterPirate]

3 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Everybody (who knew him, Chuck, Howard) has been telling us Jimmy is as unfeeling, vindictive, corrupt, and reckless as Saul.

Agreed that Jimmy was all those things.  But Jimmy also restored Irene's reputation to his own financial detriment.  Kim's leaving buried that part of him under Gus' superlab. 

Also, while I'm here, I will add that Kim's abrupt exit was not a shock to me.  She had a ton of suppressed baggage regarding her antics with Jimmy, and Howard's death was the shock that brought it all out.  I had hoped Kim had it in her to become just as unfeeling, vindictive, corrupt, and reckless in order to stay in the game.  But, in the end, it all fits.  

[gallimaufry]

37 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

What was unrealistic to me was Francesca standing so close to Jimmy knowing how much she disdains him.

I think the idea was that this classy take on the sign was her idea and she was excited by it.  At the end, it's replaced by the tacky one we're familiar with which I guess is emblematic of her loss of any kind of autonomy.

One other thing I forgot to mention about the episode - I loved the two very conscious callbacks.

One was Jimmy quoting back Mike's lines from 509 about "one day you'll wake up."  Jimmy always magpies from other people and I thought this was fascinating.

The other was "let justice be done though the heavens fall" which was an echo of Chuck in 305 just before his breakdown that precipitated his death.  I've no doubt that Jimmy originally got the quote from Chuck but it also matches 305 in that we know hell is about to descend on Jimmy.  In another way though, Saul is now a dark mirror of Chuck: estranged from an ex-wife he still cares for deeply, buried in a job where the mask has become the face.  For Chuck, it was the oil painting icon of justice; for Jimmy, the just make money shyster.  But they're actually a lot more similar than is often apparent.

[Penman61]

46 minutes ago, scenario said:

He was enjoying the conversation because it was the first normal conversation he'd had in a long while. But then he realized that it would never lead anywhere because he couldn't be in any sort of relationship and it was too painful for him. 

I totally respect subjective experiences of scenes, characters, et al. "YMMV" shoulda been on Moses' tablets.

But I will say the creators could have made your point with Gus talking to any other kind of non-cartel human; but they just happened to make this one a worldly, smooth-talking DILF? The potential sexual/romantic subtext makes Gus's renunciation that much more poignant, imho, and not just because it took him (and us) back to thoughts of Max. YMMV.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Penman61

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

What was unrealistic to me was Francesca standing so close to Jimmy knowing how much she disdains him.

I thought early on (before Kim left Jimmy and he descended completely into Saul), Francesca didn't really disdain him.

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

Why do I keep seeing this in this thread? Is spellcheck going rogue? 🤣

I use "enuf" all the time. I remember feeling DISDAIN -- See what I did there? -- for misspellings and bad grammar online. I now embrace it.

54 minutes ago, scenario said:

He was enjoying the conversation because it was the first normal conversation he'd had in a long while. But then he realized that it would never lead anywhere because he couldn't be in any sort of relationship and it was too painful for him. 

Although I missed the subtext in this scene when I first watched (and before reading posts here), I mentioned in my first post David's describing the "almost bloody" taste the wine had. Having watched the ep again, I'll repeat the significance of his remark. Gus is waiting for David to return, he takes another sip of the wine... and his expression changes. I think the bloody taste reminded him that there is a lot of blood in his life, and he can't even think about bringing anyone into it.

BTW, when the judge is questioning Kim about why she is withdrawing from the case, she eventually says about explaining it, "I would prefer not to." That immediately made me think of the short story "Bartleby, the Scrivener." The titular character says that when he refuses to work, and then repeats it thereafter. He doesn't have a happy ending.

Edited July 20, 2022 by peeayebee

[monagatuna]

23 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

I totally respect subjective experiences of scenes, characters, et al. "YMMV" shoulda been on Moses' tablets.

But I will say the creators could have made your point with Gus talking to any other kind of non-cartel human; but they just happened to make this one a worldly, smooth-talking DILF? The potential sexual/romantic subtext makes Gus's renunciation that much more poignant, imho. YMMV.

I agree--they don't write throwaway scenes in BCS. Anything casual-seeming is steeped in subtext, and the subtle yet clear acting from Esposito is brilliant in this scene. Is that the first genuine smile we've seen from Gus this whole time?

I also have no problem with the time jump between the last shreds of Jimmy and full-on Saul. Kim is his one touchstone, the only thing he cares about now that his brother is gone and his charming elder clients have gone to other lawyers. When you break her (which, to be clear, would be Jimmy's perspective, not mine--Kim broke bad herself long ago), there's nothing left but to break yourself. Accumulate things, lose your soul.

I also have no objection to Cheryl's sudden concern about Howard. No matter her seeming indifference in the one other scene we've seen her in, they have built a marriage and a palatial household and even if her affection is gone, there is now a mystery filling the Howard-shaped hole in her life. Not only is he dead, officially, he's presumed dead. She doesn't even have anything to bury. Estranged or not, she'll never get closure, and whether she loves him now, she did at some point, and that's a hard pill to swallow. My college boyfriend died well after we split up, some 10 years ago now, and I still find the circumstances around his death hard to believe. If his body had disappeared under mysterious circumstances, even if he had exhibited behaviors suggesting drug use, it'd be even harder.

[BradandJanet]

All Gus's interactions are about business--the legal one and the illegal one. He's so guarded, he weighs every word he says and every move he makes. In the wine scene, Gus lets his guard slip for a couple of minutes to chat with someone about a common interest. Maybe he's even interested in the man he's talking to. 

Then, he snaps back to reality. There's no freedom in the world he's created for himself. He can't have fun. He can't even leave the top button of his shirt undone. I think Gus's last moment is Breaking Bad is perfect. He literally explodes. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by BradandJanet

[BetyBee]

7 minutes ago, BradandJanet said:

All Gus's interactions are about business--the legal one and the illegal one. He's so guarded, he weighs every word he says and every moves he makes. In the wine scene, Gus lets his guard slip for a couple of minutes to chat with someone about a common interest. Maybe he's even interested in the man he's talking to. 

Then, he snaps back to reality. There's no freedom in the world he's created for himself. He can't have fun. He can't even leave the top button of his shirt undone. I think Gus's last moment is Breaking Bad is perfect. He literally explodes. 

And after he explodes, he straightens his tie! 

[Cinnabon]

1 minute ago, BetyBee said:

And after he explodes, he straightens his tie! 

Yes! You beat me to it. 🙂

[Sailorgirl26]

4 hours ago, Colorado David said:

Agreed. Even if they are both gay, it doesn't mean something has to happen. I talk to my gay and straight friends like Gus talked - it's not flirtatious, it's being friendly and open. I think more is being read into that talk than was intended. Just my opinion.

I listened to the Insider podcast with the show runners and I'm 99% sure they specifically said it was a flirtation. 

[SoMuchTV]

2 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I use "enuf" all the time. I remember feeling DISDAIN -- See what I did there? -- for misspellings and bad grammar online. I now embrace it.

Replying in small talk…

[Constantinople]

I don't know if it signifies anything, but if he flickering candlelight around Don Eladio's pool reminded me of the flickering candlelight in Jimmy & Kim's place when Lalo showed up.

Perhaps it just means flickering candlelight is creepy.

[MJ Frog]

4 hours ago, Penman61 said:

But I will say the creators could have made your point with Gus talking to any other kind of non-cartel human; but they just happened to make this one a worldly, smooth-talking DILF? The potential sexual/romantic subtext makes Gus's renunciation that much more poignant, imho, and not just because it took him (and us) back to thoughts of Max. YMMV.

Which I think is exactly what that shot of Gus looking down at the pool was about, to provide a visual cue for Gus's state of mind when he's in the restaurant, to supply the emotional context for his sudden change of countenance and quick departure. All kinds of smart, these guys.

Edited July 20, 2022 by MJ Frog

[LiterateDog]

10 hours ago, diebartdie said:

I've found quite a few episodes of this show to be very moving and Howard's sudden death really shook me hard but the breakup screne between Kim and Jimmy had be absolutely sobbing, I've never seen anything quite like it. Some of the most incredible acting ever. This show is just amazing in every regard.

DIEBARTDIE, I *never* cry at shows, but I just had the waterworks FLOWING during that scene. I was even getting tear-y when I was telling my husband about it the next day.

[ShadowFacts]

6 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Speaking of good women gone bad through association with Jimmy.  I loved the early Francesca who was happy to talk about Cracker Barrel all day with the old folk.

I thought the very same thing.  When she first came to work for the both of them, she was quite a bit different.  It gets even more noticeable by BB.  Was she paid that well, or what? 

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I don't know if it signifies anything, but if he flickering candlelight around Don Eladio's pool reminded me of the flickering candlelight in Jimmy & Kim's place when Lalo showed up.

There was a brief moment when the fire reflection in Gus' glasses made him look positively demonic to me.  Somebody has fun thinking up these shots. 

[SimplexFish]

Well the executive producer/director Michael Morris said in this interview that the Gus and Reed wine scene was "romantic" so I guess that settles that debate LOL

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/better-call-saul-michael-morris-fun-and-games-interview-1235183042/amp/

He also hinted (what I suggested earlier) that 06/09 may not be the last we see of Kim

Edited July 21, 2022 by SimplexFish

[gallimaufry]

One thing that does disappoint me a little in the time jump is that, unless I've missed it, we never see the very first "Better Call Saul!" which seems like a really big moment to skip on a show called "Better Call Saul" that even gives a backstory scene to Hector's bell.  This is always the problem with these kind of flash-forwards and while this probably worked better than many examples of the technique, I'm not sure the shock of the abrupt cut was ultimately better than one of their ever-brilliant mega-montages.