S01.E08: Cairo

[meep.meep]

 

Another thought. With the GR stationed outside Nora's home, how was the break-in undetected? Or were the kids just certain that the GR wouldn't talk?

I think the GR pairs follow the person around.  So, now that Nora's headed off to work, they shamble over there.  So they weren't there when the kids broke into her house.

 

It still makes no sense to me at all.

[shapeshifter]

From the Wikipedia page on NY state's pre-disappearance gun laws (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_New_York):

Enforcement of New York's firearms laws varies significantly throughout the state. Authorities in and around New York City, Long Island and other urban centers will typically arrest and prosecute anyone found illegally possessing or carrying a firearm, as will the New York State Police for anywhere in New York. In contrast, local law enforcement officials in rural upstate jurisdictions will only arrest and prosecute someone for unlawful weapons possession if there is clear demonstration of malicious intent.

I like that this could actually fit with what we saw.

From Previously.tv's Matt Debenham (http://previously.tv/the-leftovers/cabin-pressure/):

...Patti tells Kevin that Laurie came to the GR not because of Kevin's failings (a.k.a. "your dirty dick") but because

Does Patti's reference to Kevin's "dirty dick" imply that he not only cheated, but that he got an STD and gave it to Laurie or had to tell her that couldn't have sex for a while because he had an STD?

[Helena Dax]

Last week I was going to write that the philosophy of  the GR didn't really matter; Meg joined them  with no questions, just because she felt that's what she needed. Now Jill's done the same. She's there because she's unhappy and probably, because her mother's there too. It's like official religions, I guess; what you believe isn't as important as what you do with these beliefs. Are you a better person thanks to them? Do you feel better thanks to them?

 

Now, I don't think the GR are better people thanks to the cult. Quite the opposite. They're suicidal. They don't want others to be happy. The cult gives them a purpose, but it's a twisted purpose. I may understand them better now, but I still despise them. And if they're planning to do what I think they're planning to do (I read the book, but I barely remember a couple of things), I'll despise them even more.

 

I had a friend like Aimée. Her family was a complete mess and she didn't sleep at her house if she could sleep somewhere else.

 

I'm starting to feel interest in the twins. They're so normal. What's their secret?

Edited August 22, 2014 by Helena Dax

[NorthstarATL]

 

I'm starting to feel interest in the twins. They're so normal. What's their secret?

I wouldn't be surprised if we find out that there's really only been one of them remaining all this time.

[benteen]

Yeah I figured out it was the dolls. I really wanted to throw a shoe at the tv this week. The dogpile of stupid that is this show is endless. Add me to the list of finishing the season and checking out. It's not just that the show is trying so hard to be meaningful, it's the feeling that everyone seems to feel like they are making high art instead of this steaming turd that only gives dribbles and drabs of actual plot. When half you viewing audience can't figure out  something as simple as the doll delivery, there's something wrong. 

 

This.  The Leftovers likes to act like they're television's next great show but that couldn't be further from the truth.  They have some good elements and some great performers to be sure but this show is a mess.

 

I agree that Matt isn't much better than the GR but I still like him more and can find him sympathetic.  I have no sympathy for the Cult of the Stupid and Pathetic Remnant.

[ganesh]

The dogpile of stupid that is this show is endless.

 

I can barely get through 10 minutes: "I need you to tell me what happened." "Why?" *eyeroll* "Who runs your organization?" Deflected answer. 

 

I also like how the GR *doesn't talk no way* but Patti does whenever. Whenever she's not wasting paper. Though, actually saying "I'm going to report you to the police" was actually appropriate. And that she actually knows how to go online to look shit up about people. 

 

I'll tell you what. That snapping of the fingers that Patti and Laurie were doing? That happens once. I'm not a dog.

 

So Liv Tyler's mom died on 10/13. Any reason why that tidbit couldn't have been doled out through conversations with her bf in E1 or E2, so we could say "oh, I see why she might have joined the GR."

 

I have to wonder why Jill's friend's hang around with her. She's antagonized everyone she's comes in contact with.

 

I can't believe that TPTBs are actually stupid, since they made other shows. So this is deliberate. There's so much that poorly executed. I think my bitching has finally burned itself out. It's not like there's suddenly going to be a reasonable tv show all of a sudden. No one says anything. Until they do. And it's not like watching and paying attention pays off.

 

That city must be disgusting with all the cigarette butts everywhere. I like how they have to smoke *all the time*. Even actual smokers aren't smoking when they're unloading trucks, etc.

Edited August 19, 2014 by ganesh

[lawless]

Now, I don't think the GR are better people thanks to the cult. Quite the opposite. They're suicidal. They don't want others to be happy. The cult gives them a purpose, but it's a twisted purpose. I may understand them better now, but I still despise them.

Me too.  I haven't read the book, so I don't know what they are planning to do, but I think their real purpose isn't "merely" to make sure everyone remembers 10/14 all the time, I think they're a murder-suicide cult, at least of the spirit, and now increasingly of the body.  They attract people who are angry, upset, and in despair, and manipulate them by pretending to give them a purpose.  But their purpose is to eschew life and embrace nihilism.  They are wannabe Rust Cohles who are not content to let anyone else see things differently, think differently, or, increasingly, live differently.  I don't know where Dean fits in, but clearly Patti wanted Kevin to murder her and completely come apart at the seams mentally.  When he wouldn't, she slashed her own throat out, I think as much to screw him over as out of a genuine suicidal impulse.  Meg's out of control rage fits in perfectly with what I think is the real "soul" of Patti and the GR.  In the end, they are full of vicious, aggressive rage.

 

I think it's really interesting that Pattie was the leader of the GR in Mapleton, and that she was seeing a therapist (Laurie) before the Disappearance.  Now, lots of perfectly nice, sane, rationale people see therapists of course.  But some people see therapists because there's really something wrong with them.  I think Patti was someone like that.  And a manipulative person who managed to rise to the top of a dangerous cult.  Fabulous.  If Kevin weren't screwed by her death, I wouldn't feel any regret about it.  She was a monster inside.

 

I do see the parallels to Matt in a way, in that he's taking plays right out of the GRs's playbook, and he was doing some pretty mean, self-centered stuff before, like outing all the dirty laundry of the disappeared.  But I think he's far less malevolent than the GR.  He's not leading people to murder-suicide, for one, he's trying to help people connect to a faith that values the life we live, family connections, and basic decency.  (It's not my personal faith, and it comes with it's drawbacks undoubtedly, ;), but he's not casually sending his followers out to be stoned to death to make some sort of horrible, nihilistic point.)  With the exception of the GR, he doesn't seem to be behaving overly stalkerish to get people to join him, and he correctly perceives the blackness and malice that's really at the heart of the GR.  So, he's got his issues with needing to have things his way, and did some pretty selfish hurtful things to others in his despair, but it's not on the same level as the GR, at least in my mind.

 

Jill also annoys me, but I feel bad for her.  She obviously felt extremely threatened by the fact that her dad has moved on enough to start dating, and probably would have given anyone a hard time.  Nora just presented extra fuel for the fire.  She clearly is deeply hurt by her mother's abandonment, and why shouldn't she be.  I think her purpose in "joining" the GR, if that's what it is, was a desperate attempt to try to connect with her mom.  Jill's feeling despair, but maybe she's always held onto hope that as long as her dad didn't really give up on his marriage to Laurie, there was still hope her mom might "get better."  Now that he's dating, Jill's terrified, and tried to reach out to her mom in the only way her mom might allow.  She's also just a kid, and she's gotta be exhausted by her crazy parents and grandfather.  In a lot of ways, the appeal of the GR is also that it lets you just give up.  That may be another reason Jill is there.

 

For all of this, I hate Laurie.  She can just fuck right on off.  She had a purpose, her two children.  The real reason she's with the GR is because she's cowardly and weak.  I get that everyone was freaked the hell out by the disappearance, but you know what?  In the history of mankind, there must have been countless events and occurrences that people couldn't explain that utterly shook them up, but that didn't mean the answer was to abandon their families, take to wearing all white, refuse to speak, and eschew life itself.  Get some perspective people, and grow the fuck up.  What twenty-first century wimps, geez.

Edited August 19, 2014 by lawless

[ganesh]

I can't really root for Matt.  I think Matt's mission just echoes the GR, he's trying to impose his interpretation of the events of the 14th on everyone.  He'll stoop to some really dirty tactics to try and accomplish that also.

 

His interpretation is that it's not the rapture. He's presented some compelling evidence to this end. I think it's the one thing that the show actually established as canon. He's got a burning need to prove it, and people don't like what he's digging up, but what dirty tricks is he up to? Standing in the street? Distributing flyers? Gambling, ok, but it was legal. The GR actually committed crimes. 

 

This sweeping music needs to stop though.

 

I have to say, the actor playing Patti is great as a grating SOB. I'm sure they've given her zero information on her character and what she supposedly knows, and she's playing it like she knows everything. 

"This is *happening*. You *understand*." 

 

Although, I'm doubtful that most people actually forget 10/14. Kevin might not think about 10/1 much, but I'm doubtful he's able to really forget it. So the GR is reminding everyone of what they all know? There was a town memorial. The GR showed up to make sure everyone remembered that they we remembering?

 

I really resent the idea that you have to think about this tragedy all the time to honor it.  That's a stupid premise and a poor understanding of grief.

That, and I kept wanting Kevin to ask Patti -- to what end?   What is it you are hoping to accomplish?

 

 

That's a better summary of what I'm trying to say.

Edited August 19, 2014 by ganesh

[GaT]

So Liv Tyler's mom died on 10/13. Any reason why that tidbit couldn't have been doled out through conversations with her bf in E1 or E2, so we could say "oh, I see why she might have joined the GR."

 

 

I stopped watching this show a few episodes ago, but when I watch True Blood, the first 5 minutes of this show are in that hour for some reason, so I watch the first five minutes of this, then come here to see what happened. First, glad to hear Patti is dead. Maybe if she killed herself a few episodes I would still be watching. Anyway, the reason I'm commenting is about why Meg joined. I am calling a big bullshit on her mother dying as the reason for joining the GR. The reason I feel qualified to say no way is because my mother died unexpectedly on 09/10/2001. Everyone knows what happened on 9/11, & I never felt the need to join a cult or any other organization, especially one as off the wall as the GR. Yes, your mother dying is an incredibly sad thing that can rock your world. It doesn't make you abandon your entire life, give up all your possessions, give up your right to speak words, make you wear nothing but white, stalk people, & smoke a carton of cigarettes every day.

Edited August 19, 2014 by GaT

[Broderbits]

The Guilty Remnant reminds me of the Westboro church and their picketing of soldiers' funerals. They are despicable in the way they cause pain, and not one of them could give a reason why, at least not a reason that sane people would understand. They are self=deluded and self-indulgent.

[scrb]

So hey martyr themselves and who is suppose to be impressed?

People who are not in the GR don't care.

It's suppose to make wavering members recommit?

[Mor]

I think the main attraction of the show is the WTF?! factor. The more we figure out the more stupid it seems ( Patti speech in this episode was no exception )

Reminds me the cheesy line

1:Hi I am very mysterious

2:How come ?

1:Walks away smiling ...

[revbfc]

Hi, I'm a longtime lurker, and newly registered to post on this site.

I have to thank all the other posters on this board for helping me out with my frustration at this show. It's really good to know that my concerns are held by so many others, and reading this board after viewing an episode is the most entertaining part of this show (for me).

On the subject of Matt vs. the GR, I have to agree that Matt is the better of the two. Sure, he's dredging up dirty laundry, but he genuinely seems to care for people. His mission is to nurture hope and purpose, while the GR have all the charm of a Herpes outbreak that never seems to subside.

Perhaps his desperation to find hope is partially selfish, but he wants find light, and he does want to bring others with him. Christopher Eccleston's performance is heartbreaking to me, and one of the few reasons I stick around. With a show this bleak, I have no choice but to support the only character actively searching for something to be positive about.

[Constantinople]

His interpretation is that it's not the rapture. He's presented some compelling evidence to this end. I think it's the one thing that the show actually established as canon. He's got a burning need to prove it, and people don't like what he's digging up, but what dirty tricks is he up to? Standing in the street? Distributing flyers? Gambling, ok, but it was legal. The GR actually committed crimes.

Matt murdered the guy who robbed him, and in circumstances where it would be difficult to argue self-defense.

He also baptizes babies without the consent of both parents. Not a crime, but not exactly what I'd want in the local minister either.

Also, wasn't the money that Matt used to fund his gambling money that Kevin Sr. intended for Kevin Jr.? In which case, there's a little bit of theft involved. Although given that Kevin Sr. and Matt appear to be friends, and presumably Kevin Sr. told Matt about the money, perhaps Kevin Sr said that Matt could use the money if he needed it.

[stillshimpy]

MD = Memorial Day ?

 

In the Ptv piece on the episode, the writer speculated that it stood for "Mapleton Departed" , which seems possible, but just using the initials makes me think it is supposed to stand for something else.  Who knows?  More Disciples?  Mission ______?  Whatever it is they're planning? 

 

The thing with the GR's "we must never forget and stop acting like anything matters or is normal, or ever can be" is that it sort of has to have a point to it.  If they want everything to grind to a halt and have perpetual navel-gazing over the Great Nothing That Occurred, what do they think happens then?  Watch out folks, I'm about to quote the Tao of Pooh.  Is it that "nothing doing is something doing"?   Or what? 

What do they think will happen when everyone remembers perpetually by embracing the meaninglessness of all?  Since Pattie is now gone-baby-gone (to that great Nothing in the Nonexistent or whatever they think happens), does Laurie then become the GR rep who talks up a storm when the mood strikes?  

There's just a logic flaw with the GR (right, so that's an obvious understatement):  If none of this matters.  If there is no family; there is no connection, everything is a lie and there is only a lack of meaning....then you don't do anything with that.  "Making people remember" is acknowledging that there is a huge ass event to acknowledge and focus upon, which means it has great importance and isn't meaningless.  To get people to stop, drop and remember their butts off collectively, there has to be an emotional attachment to the event otherwise the reaction would be "Oh yeah, I remember that day nothing with any emotional significance happened" and that's pretty much it.  If there are not emotional moorings then "remembering" is not just going to be brief, it won't change anything.  (Free Range Negatives! EEK!}

 

I just don't understand, yet, what it is that the GR thinks happens once everyone wakes up to their Departed Dolls.  I mean, other than the super obvious "So people are actually going to be infuriated enough to actually start killing you guys this time, you know that right?" but if family has no meaning and all is erased, then what should happen (if that were true) is that people move the inanimate doll out of the damned way with a shrug and a muttered "What a weird lawn ornament" as they go about their day.  

The GRs entire existence and plan with their dolls and clothing is predicated on it mattering very, very much to these families.  Even the damned stalking.  

And I still wonder if Meg joined the cult for some reason we don't get yet, because her reaction to Matt and then her smile after Laurie smacked her is not something that anyone who really believed any of what Patti said to Kevin.  

 

 

 

His interpretation is that it's not the rapture. He's presented some compelling evidence to this end. I think it's the one thing that the show actually established as canon. He's got a burning need to prove it, and people don't like what he's digging up, but what dirty tricks is he up to? Standing in the street? Distributing flyers? Gambling, ok, but it was legal. The GR actually committed crimes.

 

But he's still just another Evangelical about what he believes.  At this point we've had this conversation a lot, ganesh, so I'm not going to go very deeply into, but it is beyond obvious to that this was not the Rapture as outlined in the Christian beliefs.  No second-coming, no Rapture.  It is pretty much that simple.  His position is that it still has some sort of great and personal meaning for him to convince people of....something that's actually sort of obvious and furthermore to convert people from what they choose to believe. Anyone that would need to be disabused of the notion that it was the rapture, would already have figured that out.  

No question for me: the GR are just jackasses.  But for anyone who lost someone, Matt's little fact-finding missions and pamphlets about why that person sucks would hurt the people who remained behind.  He knows this.  He gets that part, that's part of the reason he protected the information about Nora's husband.  There is hardly an adult person who could pass the "have you sinned?" test and part of the point of his belief in his faith is that the central figure in it, Christ, redeems all sinners if they believe.  

Matt's worst crime is actually that he knows he's hurting people who remain, but he's on a Crusade too.  He doesn't gross me out on the same level the GR does, but he's actually breaking with his alleged Faith with all that "So and so beat her children...." ...because part of his religion is that people cannot judge one another's right to salvation (again, this is not my belief system, but I was raised in it ...and Matt's flyers are problematic with the "Judge not, lest ye be judged" stuff.  

I really don't care about the legalities one way or the other, I just don't see what he is doing as markedly different than the GR.  He's trying to force his interpretation of events on other people.  I think he's less contemptible while doing it, but that is grading on a curve. 

Edited August 19, 2014 by stillshimpy

[ganesh]

Those aren't really tricks though because they weren't pre mediated toward some end.

I thought there was a note on the money that said "this is for you Rev."

I think the comparison to Westboro might be a bit harsh, but it's pretty hilarious. I'm not seeing anyone shedding a tear if either of them started killing themselves.

"Well, that's one less GR I have to worry about."

Besides the chief being a terrible cop, I don't see why the police aren't arresting the GR. There was a mass robbery, and people have been standing outside my house. Of course, in this world people don't behave like people, and plot device.

Actually I shouldn't say plot. This show is just a jumble of events strung together.

[Totale]

I haven't read the book and have no idea, but I thought the characters and the whole deal with the Rent-a-trailer looked pretty shady and I don't think it's full of dolls - I think it's full of skeletons.  They had clothes made up to match those in the family photos and are about to stage a tableau Day-Of-The-Dead style.

 

When Dogkiller ran out saying "I tried" I thought he was talking to Patti.  He tried to get Kevin to kill her, but couldn't.  I think he's the "higher-up" in the GR Kevin was asking about.  He was around for Gladys, too, you'll recall.

[stillshimpy]

"this is for you Rev."

 

I think it said "Kev" which is why it was buried in Kevin's backyard. 

[seamusk]

I think it said "Kev" which is why it was buried in Kevin's backyard. 

It said “Rev. — You deserve this. — KG.”  Just googled it and found it in this review because I was pretty sure it was for the Rev.

 

ETA: I think it's in Kevin's back yard because it was previously Kevin Sr.s back yard and it probably seemed a good place to him to bury something.  That's my guess anyhow on why it's there.

Edited August 19, 2014 by seamusk

[ganesh]

Good call on whomever said that it was the GR that killed Gladys btw.

[stillshimpy]

I think it's in Kevin's back yard because it was previously Kevin Sr.s back yard and it probably seemed a good place to him to bury something.  That's my guess anyhow on why it's there.

 

Thank you! I thought it was Kevin's father burying it for his son, which still makes more sense to me, but if it says Rev, it says "Rev". Seems like it would have been easier to give it directly to Matt vs burying it (I thought Kevin Jr. would be unlikely to accept it from his father), but Kevin Sr. is supposed to be barking mad, so sense doesn't really enter into that picture.

ganesh, Dean (Dog Shooter) in the show said something about it being an inside job and then none of the people stoning Gladys actually spoke, which was weird, because you'd thinking taunting would be a big part of a revenge killing, so at least the show was pretty straight-forward about that being a possibility.

What I can't figure out is how in the world Dean and the GR are knocking Kevin out. Then again, I think I'm meant to believe there really is an unseen force at play here, between the snippets from National Geographic being heard (and the title of this episode reflecting one of the subjects in that NG) and things like Kevin Sr. showing up to get Jill out of the fridge.

I know the path to madness would be trying to figure out what the unseen forces would wish Kevin to do...because if they are that powerful and connected to making millions disappear, you'd think they wouldn't need much assistance from any series of Kevins, Sr. Jr., the III or what have you. Basically if they are so powerful they can knock Kevin out to mess with his mind, I can't help but wonder why they are bothering. Why not just act?

ETA: Kind of like when people talk about UFO visitations or abductions, it seems so unlikely that we'd hold any space-traveling creature's attention for too long.

Edited August 19, 2014 by stillshimpy

[A Boston Gal]

Count me on the "Dean's with the GR" train here...it's all been a con, and he and Patti have been working to remove/frame Kevin, drive him insane, or both. As has been noted, I just can't figure out they've been drugging Kevin if he's off the meds. The daughter's friend, maybe?

 

Oh, silly me, looking for a logical explanation to all this wackiness.

 

ETA: Posted at the same time as stillshimpy's, where we're wondering the same thing.

Edited August 19, 2014 by A Boston Gal

[Constantinople]

Since the GR want to die and AFTEC wants to take them out, I really wish Kevin (Jr) would stop getting in the way.

If Howard Beale can be assassinated for low ratings, surely the GR should be eliminated for being boring and nonsensical.

 

It said “Rev. — You deserve this. — KG.”  Just googled it and found it in this review because I was pretty sure it was for the Rev.

 

ETA: I think it's in Kevin's back yard because it was previously Kevin Sr.s back yard and it probably seemed a good place to him to bury something.  That's my guess anyhow on why it's there.

Thanks for clearing that up.

So Matt isn't a thief, he's just a murderer and a one-parent baptizer, and a gossip.

[freebie]

On the money buried in Kevin's backyard -- I seem to remember that the message to Matt from Kevin Sr. was about a judge taking bribes (i.e., another example of one of the departed being a bad guy). So I assumed the money was actually bribe money that Kevin Sr. somehow intercepted because the judge was no longer around to accept it. And that's the money Matt ended up using on his gambling spree.

 

Interesting that Kevin Sr. was helping Matt with his mission to debunk the rapture theory. Do we know how long Kevin Sr. has been in the hospital? I assume he was still Chief of Police for a period of time after 10/14.  Also interesting that Matt apparently hadn't touched that money before he faced losing his church. You would think it would have come in handy helping with his wife's care.

 

Speaking of Matt's wife, I noticed that Janel Moloney was in this episode again -- I'm always sort of surprised to see her name in the credits considering that she so far has not had much to do in the way of acting. Her character has to have an actual future on this show, right? Otherwise, why hire an actual, known actress for the part? 

 

Question re: Kevin Jr.'s dirty dick -- who was he sleeping with? Do we know?

[xlibris]

Question re: Kevin Jr.'s dirty dick -- who was he sleeping with? Do we know?

My guess is that she's now Departed. It doesn't make a lot of sense dramatically that the Garveys would be completely untouched by the Departure. And it would give Laurie some motivation for joining the GR.

[Latverian Diplomat]

My guess is that she's now Departed. It doesn't make a lot of sense dramatically that the Garveys would be completely untouched by the Departure. And it would give Laurie some motivation for joining the GR.

In the first episode Kev has a brief flashback that strongly implies she departed while they were in flagrante delicto. It cuts away so quickly that it's unclear, but I think that was the intention.

[freebie]

Yes, that was my guess, too, but I was wondering if we have any clues about who she might have been and whether it was a one-night stand or a longer-term relationship. The way Patti seemed to be suggesting that Kevin *should* be remembering the departed made me think the latter, but I suppose it could go either way. Guess this goes on my list of "things I would like to know, but likely won't ever find out." I keep the list with my "John from Cincinnati" DVDs.

[lawless]

On the subject of Matt vs. the GR, I have to agree that Matt is the better of the two. Sure, he's dredging up dirty laundry, but he genuinely seems to care for people. His mission is to nurture hope and purpose, while the GR have all the charm of a Herpes outbreak that never seems to subside.

Hee!  Well put. 

I really don't care about the legalities one way or the other, I just don't see what he is doing as markedly different than the GR.

After this episode, the major difference for me is that the GR seem to truly want people to die -- they want them to die in spirit by becoming hollowed out husks with no connections to other humans, and no cares about death, either their own or their companions, and, apparently, some of them are now seeking bodily death, according to Patti.  Matt just wanted people to understand that the disappearances couldn't be the Rapture as predicted by the Christian Bible.  But he is not trying to get people to die, either spiritually or physically, and that's an enormous difference.  I have long suspected the GR was like a Pitcher Plant, luring angry, frightened, despairing, vulnerable people to their deaths, and this episode confirmed it, in my eyes.  Patti and Meg were the embodiment of the heart of the GR in this episode -- illogical, hypocritical, misdirected rage, and murderous/suicidal intent.  I so wished that when Patti told Kevin that the GR wanted to make sure no one forgot 10/14, and that no one thought about anything else, that he had simply asked her, "to what end?"  Because there is no end, no purpose, other than the annihilation of themselves and others.  Matt is absolutely right to try to combat them, even if he has done his own wrongs.  For all his flaws, he is not their equivalent, to me.

 

So Matt isn't a thief, he's just a murderer and a one-parent baptizer, and a gossip.

Wait a sec -- I thought he just badly beat up the guy who tried to rob him, I did not think that he necessarily died, and since his girlfriend found him, I assumed they got him medical help.  I could have missed something, and this show is far from clear sometimes, but that was my impression.  As for being a gossip, that was very hurtful to a lot of people, and I think he was wrong to do that.  But it ain't the same as arranging to have a "co-worker" stoned to death.  That leaves a one-parent baptizer, which I didn't think was so terrible since it wasn't that the wife was of a different faith, but just that she'd lost faith since the Disappearance.  It's not great, but I'd definitely prefer it to having those weirdo freaks standing outside my house all day, smoking and silently harassing me by recording all of my comings and goings, and I much, much prefer it to having them sneak into my home at night and steal family pictures, or whatever else they have planned.

 

As for the money -- didn't the Reverand replace the seed money he took from the mason jar after he won at the casino, or did I misinterpret what I saw? 

[Latverian Diplomat]

 

When Patti laid out all those clothes in the church, does that mean that when the Suddenly Departed disappeared that the only thing left was their clothing ?  If so, that adds an extra twist on what happened.

I think it's was just prep for dressing whatever's in the bags.

 

In the beginning of the first episode, neither the baby that disappears nor the man with the boy and the shopping cart leave any clothes behind.

[lawless]

I don't think the clothes disappeared, because of what you said regarding the baby and the man with the shopping cart -- no clothes left behind.  My best guess is that the GR used the pictures they stole in part to get the dolls, and in part of obtain clothing that would make the dolls look even more realistic, to completely freak out the families of the departed.  If so, that is incredibly cruel and vicious. Given what Patti said, they are probably intending to try to provoke a bloodbath.  Assholes.  If they want to kill themselves, fine, do it.  But they aren't content with that, they want to bring death and despair to as many people around them as they can.  It's so selfish and malicious.  They're horrible.  Again, fuck you Laurie.  And Meg.  Oh, your mom died, and no one paid your personal grief much attention because of the worldwide disappearances?  Boo fucking hoo.  What do they think living through World War I or World War II was like for people in Europe and Asia?  The concentration camps of Nazi Germany, or the death squads of Pol Pot?  Or even just the American Civil War?  Or the Black Death?  Having legitimate reasons to feel grief and sorrow does not mean you have legitimate reason to join the GR murder-suicide cult.  Can't say it enough, I hate them.

Edited August 20, 2014 by lawless

[ganesh]

Matt is absolutely right to try to combat them, even if he has done his own wrongs.  For all his flaws, he is not their equivalent, to me.

 

Matt being a pain in the ass is way different than breaking into people's houses too. 

 

If so, that is incredibly cruel and vicious.

 

It's also stupid too, since, again, no one has really forgot about 10/14, and since people are applying for benefits, there's a federal agency, and you're probably bound to see a GR at least every other day. 

[Latverian Diplomat]

Yes, that was my guess, too, but I was wondering if we have any clues about who she might have been and whether it was a one-night stand or a longer-term relationship. The way Patti seemed to be suggesting that Kevin *should* be remembering the departed made me think the latter, but I suppose it could go either way. Guess this goes on my list of "things I would like to know, but likely won't ever find out." I keep the list with my "John from Cincinnati" DVDs.

Possible mild spoiler

Looking at the cast list for the first episode I think she was Briana Marin as "The Woman". Her scene is so quick and her face is mostly obscured so that's just my best guess. Briana Marin is back as "The Woman" in the cast for the next episode. Could still be flashbacks, so it doesn't necessarily rule out that she is Departed, but if I'm right it does look like we'll get more details on their relationship.

[Blakeston]

I think it's was just prep for dressing whatever's in the bags.

 

In the beginning of the first episode, neither the baby that disappears nor the man with the boy and the shopping cart leave any clothes behind.

 

I didn't even realize until now that the departed disappeared with their clothes. What the hell, show?

[ottoDbusdriver]

 

I think it's was just prep for dressing whatever's in the bags.

 

In the beginning of the first episode, neither the baby that disappears nor the man with the boy and the shopping cart leave any clothes behind.

 

I didn't even realize until now that the departed disappeared with their clothes. What the hell, show?

 

So if the Departed disappeared with their clothes and anything in their possession at the time, did wallets, hats, keys, watches, purses and cell phones also disappear ?  I guess that means that any internal artificial body parts disappeared as well -- artificial hips, dental work, plastic surgery implants, etc..   If so, that may explain why Kevin is so pissed off -- he may have been going balls deep in not!Laurie and when she disappeared he was mid-stroke and may have lost the tip. </snark>

[Latverian Diplomat]

I didn't even realize until now that the departed disappeared with their clothes. What the hell, show?

It went by very fast. On the other hand, Kev's missing shirts got tons of screen time. So, it's not as if the show is averse to disappearing clothes per se, they just have their own unique idea of how to turn that into a compelling story element.

[Latverian Diplomat]

So if the Departed disappeared with their clothes and anything in their possession at the time, did wallets, hats, keys, watches, purses and cell phones also disappear ?  I guess that means that any internal artificial body parts disappeared as well -- artificial hips, dental work, plastic surgery implants, etc..   If so, that may explain why Kevin is so pissed off -- he may have been going balls deep in not!Laurie and when she disappeared he was mid-stroke and may have lost the tip. </snark>

Presumably, shopping cart guy had a least a few of those things and none were apparent. It may come down to the difference between wearing or carrying in a garment vs. just touching. I think Kev's tip was safe, but if he was sponge-worthy that is an intriguing borderline case.

 

It just occurred to me that the people who disappeared were replaced by air, not vacuum. Otherwise, Kev would have experienced a thunderclap, which was probably not the kind of clap he was prepared to risk.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Latverian Diplomat

[Blakeston]

It went by very fast. On the other hand, Kev's missing shirts got tons of screen time. So, it's not as if the show is averse to disappearing clothes per se, they just have their own unique idea of how to turn that into a compelling story element.

 

It did go by fast. And in the case of the baby, it's possible his clothes could have been at the bottom of the car-seat-thingie. We didn't get a good look inside it after the baby disappeared.

 

But with the kid whose father disappeared, we got a broad shot of the parking lot, with no clothes lying anywhere. And we know the father was in the parking lot when he disappeared, because the cart was rolling away.

[ottoDbusdriver]

It just occurred to me that the people who disappeared were replaced by air, not vacuum. Otherwise, Kev would have experienced a thunderclap, which was probably not the kind of clap he was prepared to risk.

 

Kind of like transporter wonkiness on Star Trek -- just because they seem to appear out of thin air, there is still the air (filled with dust, spores, insects, etc.) where they appear that needed to be displaced for them to rematerialize (otherwise they might end combined/merged with other lifeforms like Seth Brundlefly).  Likewise here, a body disappears in this show and there's suddenly a void in the air that must be filled (because yeah ... science, bitches !!!) --  it would make a noise.  So why didn't the disappearances make any noise ?

Edited August 20, 2014 by ottoDbusdriver

[GaT]

It did go by fast. And in the case of the baby, it's possible his clothes could have been at the bottom of the car-seat-thingie. We didn't get a good look inside it after the baby disappeared.

 

But with the kid whose father disappeared, we got a broad shot of the parking lot, with no clothes lying anywhere. And we know the father was in the parking lot when he disappeared, because the cart was rolling away.

But if everything they had on them disappeared with them, shouldn't the cart have gone too if he was holding the handle? Or for that matter, why didn't the car seat disappear with the baby? They seem to have drawn a strange line as to what disappeared & what didn't.

[WearyTraveler]

My take on the gun is that when Jill and Aimee first saw it and saw Nora so sad, they thought she was having suicidal thoughts and that she was fucked up because her whole family disappeared.  IMO, when Jill sees Nora with her father, she's wondering if she's now going to get a fucked up, depressed, suicidal stepmom that will mess up her dad (and probably her, too) even more than he is.  Thus her bringing up the gun at the dinner table ("dad, you have to stop seeing this woman because she's bad news for us") and her searching the purse.

 

Later, when Aimee is relating the story to the twins, one of them asks why the gun is important, and Aimee says that if Nora doesn't have the gun, then that means she's okay, to which Jill replies that Nora is lying.  Aimee says that it is possible for people to be okay and Jill says it's not possible for Nora to be okay because she lost her whole family.  I think here we see again, IMO, that Jill just doesn't want any more crazy getting into her already fucked up family.

 

When they are in Nora's house, one of the twins asks why is finding the gun so important, and the other one replies that if they find it, it means that no one will be okay, ever again.  I think he was partially right.  When Jill found the gun she cried, because maybe a part of her was hoping that Nora was really a healthy person who could help get her family to a better place, psychologically speaking, but finding the gun meant that Nora was still "suicidal" in her mind.  Having lost all hope, Jill joins the GR.

 

I don't much like the character of Jill, but I think they needed to do something with her, other than exploring her boring, angtsy, teenage world.  Maybe this will provide her with the opportunity to really direct her anger where it belongs: her mother.

 

Edited August 20, 2014 by WearyTraveler

[ganesh]

So, it's not as if the show is averse to disappearing clothes per se, they just have their own unique idea of how to turn that into a compelling story element.

 

They also have their own unique idea on what the word compelling means. 

 

So why didn't the disappearances make any noise?

 

This is the type of stuff I meant when I decried the "after three years we don't know anything." Whether they made a noise easily could be confirmed by looking at video footage (if it had sound), from eye witness accounts, etc. The fact is, TPTB didn't think this through nearly enough if at all. There's no way people wouldn't be seriously thinking about stuff like this. If you don't want that to be the focus of your show, that's fine, but you have to create a world where investigations like this are happening, even if off in the distance/background, else the world just isn't believable. And it's really not. What's worse is that Nora is working for a federal department that's compiling data, but other stuff like this is ignored. They could have put in some sound when we watched the disappearances. 

 

For that matter, the car that hit Matt and his wife presumably had someone vanish in it. So the car didn't vanish either. I suppose you could say only organic matter vanished. That wouldn't explain watches, earrings, etc. 

 

When Jill found the gun she cried, because maybe a part of her was hoping that Nora was really a healthy person who could help get her family to a better place, psychologically speaking, but finding the gun meant that Nora was still "suicidal" in her mind.

 

The only problem is one who owns a gun isn't automatically suicidal. Jill didn't know about Nora being shot at by whores. Nora didn't say she got rid of the gun, but that she only stopped carrying it. There's lots of reasons for that. 

 

Clearly, the endgame of that was to get Jill to the GR. Much like the rest of the show, it was sloppily executed. It would have been more believable to me if Jill blew up at Kevin because he and Nora are trying to move on, and she's pissed he's [seemingly] forgetting about Laurie, so she runs away to the GR.

 

This show. Everything is a Thing. So when something actually happens it's anticlimactic. Just create a real world with real characters and let the story unfold.  

[WearyTraveler]

The only problem is one who owns a gun isn't automatically suicidal.

 

Off course not.  I'm saying that the teenagers thought Nora was suicidal when they saw the gun at the coffee shop because they knew who Nora was and that she had lost her entire family, and then they saw her push the cup off the table (which was weird all on its own).  Later they followed her and saw that she was sad, had no energy, etc.  Before getting the Wayne hug, Nora was pretty bleak, sad and defeated.  And everyone in town saw it, including Jill who got close and personal.

 

What I'm saying is that the teenagers inferred Nora was suicidal, not that she actually was.

 

Edited August 20, 2014 by WearyTraveler

[shapeshifter]

But if everything they had on them disappeared with them, shouldn't the cart have gone too if he was holding the handle? Or for that matter, why didn't the car seat disappear with the baby? They seem to have drawn a strange line as to what disappeared & what didn't.

Well, if it's a contact thing, the car seat wouldn't go because there'd be whatever was between the baby's skin and the car seat (clothes, blanket, diaper, or whatever).

But in my fanwank it's a transference of a physical entity from one dimension to another, so there could be a sort of magnetic field that takes only a limited amount of extra mass around the person to the other dimension. Then may be the air from the other dimension is transferred back. Or, IDK, maybe feral dogs were transferred back. LOL

Of course none of this fits with the images from the opening of the show.

BTW, I really appreciate how each cold opening scene always ends with a person with their mouth open and an anguished expression that fades into the same type of image in the opening credit montage. Not that I like seeing anguished faces. But then again, I am watching this show, so...

[Michell3]

 

When they are in Nora's house, one of the twins asks why is finding the gun so important, and the other one replies that if they find it, it means that no one will be okay, ever again.  I think he was partially right.  When Jill found the gun she cried, because maybe a part of her was hoping that Nora was really a healthy person who could help get her family to a better place, psychologically speaking, but finding the gun meant that Nora was still "suicidal" in her mind.  Having lost all hope, Jill joins the GR.

 

so i do deeply hate jill, i want to throw things at the tv when her face is on it BUT i did feel a smidgen of sympathy for her when she found the gun and started to cry. horrible jill being horrible jill, i think she def. wanted to catch nora in a lie by digging through her purse and then later breaking into her house to find said gun, but i also think that she was holding onto some hope that if nora, who had pretty much lost everything in the departure, could eventually be ok, then she could too.  

 

jill smelled bullshit though, and it reminded me of when nora lost it at the hotel bar and screamed at the dude who also lost several family members and seemed over it and wrote a book about it.  she screams something along the lines of, no one is ever ok ever again (i am, of course, paraphrasing).  this dude seemed back to normal, and nora, at the time, also smelled bullshit. both nora and jill were right, in that neither nora or dude-with-book would be "ok" if it weren't for wayne and his "magical" placebo hugs - guess you could say they cheated.  perhaps they would've been ok in the long run, but wayne and his hugs seem to have pushed that timeline up a bit. anyway, so very sad that jill basically has to chase after her mom for her attention.  i hate laurie too, but i'm captivated by amy brenneman's performance, so she doesn't make me want to throw things at the tv.

 

on the plus side, maybe i never have to hear jill's voice ever again.  ha. i am just the worst.  

 

also, because i am a fan of supernatural/sci-fi tv/movies/fic, i hope garvey sr. and jr. are not crazy, and i hope wayne, weird and annoying as he is, is the real deal.  

[canter]

I liked how Meg just kept nattering on while Laurie gave her "WTF is wrong with you??" looks. Her little subversive smile after Laurie slapped her and walked away was interesting too.

[shapeshifter]

Was I the only one watching this show who has watched too many CSI shows and wanted to yell at Kevin for getting Patti's blood all over him and his finger prints on the murder weapon/shard of glass, not to mention disturbing the crime scene in general? Yeah, I know, at that point it was sort of moot.

[Michell3]

 

Was I the only one watching this show who has watched too many CSI shows and wanted to yell at Kevin for getting Patti's blood all over him and his finger prints on the murder weapon/shard of glass, not to mention disturbing the crime scene in general? Yeah, I know, at that point it was sort of moot.

 

Yes!  I thought the same thing, but figured he was screwed either way. He kidnaps her, holds her hostage all day, then tries to let her go and she kills herself?  Riiiiight. I'm really interested to see how he gets himself out of this though, legally, so that he can continue to function as the main character.

[WearyTraveler]

Was I the only one watching this show who has watched too many CSI shows and wanted to yell at Kevin for getting Patti's blood all over him and his finger prints on the murder weapon/shard of glass, not to mention disturbing the crime scene in general? Yeah, I know, at that point it was sort of moot.

 

I wasn't yelling all that because I was too distracted by his pulling out the shard in the first place.  The first rule they teach you in First Aid class (and which has been explored in medical shows like ER and Grey's Anatomy) is that you never, EVER, pull out the object because said object is actually acting as a stopper/plug and preventing the person from bleeding out.  The object (knife, glass shard, rebar, whatever) should only be removed by medical personnel in an OR or trauma room where they can use better methods to stop flood flow once they pull out the object.

 

I don't mind when regular characters do it because, hell, not everyone takes First Aid classes, and it may be a natural impulse to pull out the object that caused the damage, but when cops do it, I cringe because cops should be trained in First Aid procedures, so they know how to act when they come upon a situation that requires medical help.  I think in Third Watch they actually went over that when a cop had to deliver a baby, with the cop (or someone else on the scene, I can't remember that well now) said that he hadn't done it but he'd had the training to do it.

[ganesh]

I figured he could just chop up and burn the body and the cabin. Unless anyone saw him take Patti, he should be in the clear. 

[izabella]

I'm curious how Laurie is going to feel about her daughter joining their murder-suicide cult.  Theoretically, she should be pleased that her daughter will now have a "purpose" but that can't be what she wants for her. 

 

I wonder if she'll speak to her like Patti did when Liv Tyler came to them.