S06.E08: Point and Shoot

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Was Lalo the only human to die in the showdown at the OK Meth Corral?

I just can't buy that Gus would allow Kim to live for a heckuva lot longer.  He is too careful - as we saw with the gun placement and with the phone call to Lyle creating an alibi for his absence.  If needed, he'd kill some poor soul and pass him off as family if need be to affirm the alibi.  Homey don't play.

Not sure why Gus would just take what Mike gave him in the aftermath.  Mike screwed up.  Royally.

There is this appropriate symmetry with Lalo and Walt's death:  Each died at a fantastic super lab.   

After all the teaser promos with Gene, I was disappointed there was not even a second of reference to him in the ep.  Not sure how G/G would do that, but they are smaht. 

Yeah, I didn't care for the ease with which Lalo shot to death, with a pistol, what, five or six, professionally trained violent men who were on duty. A little too reminicent of Aryan Brotherhood types being able to stage simulteaneous prison assassinations across several states. Still some of the best t.v. drama I've seen, but every storytelling effort has its ups and downs.

Kim really does know too much. Gus wouldn't allow her to be arrested, that's for sure. We can safely assume this story doesn't end with her in jail or disbarred, and her not appearing in BB strongly indicates that she's either dead, or takes a course in vacuum repair.

[Bannon]

Character wise, one of the best things in this episode was the indication that Mike's eventual, somewhat irrationally monumental loathing of Walter White is a displacement of self-hatred. He's disgusted that a normal, law-abiding, productive person like Howard gets buried under a slab of concrete next to scum like Lalo, and he's disgusted with himself for the role he played in that outcome. When normal civilian Walter White comes along, and decides to become a violent destroyer of lives, all the while putting on the airs of a person with morals, it has to trigger Mike, and his own self loathing, which he directs at Walter. To the point that he's mad that Walt won't just lay down, and let himself be killed by Gus.

[Milburn Stone]

9 hours ago, anoninrva said:

I was thinking she would make a break for it, or that perhaps he thought she would, but of the two of them, I'd put her down as more of the cold-blooded killer.   

I think she was going to make a break for it, and then realized she had to go through with the plan if there was a chance of saving Jimmy. At no point--including her aiming of the gun--did I think she was a cold-blooded killer. She did it against her will to save Jimmy's life as he had tried to save hers.

[JudyObscure]

8 hours ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

And can I just say the casting department needs an Emmy nod solely for casting Tony Dalton. The charm he was able to imbue into a psychopath was stellar. I found it rather apropos that he died with his signature smile on his face. 

Casting has always deserved an Emmy for this and of course, Tony Dalton himself.  On top of everything else, his death scene was the best I've ever seen, I actually thought I saw his eyes glaze over.

Mike irritated me so much!  Why can't he say the words, "Lalo is dead?"  Why do guys like Mike always have to be cryptic?  "Lalo's not coming back," could just mean not coming back tonight, but Mike would always choose coolness over clarity.  Why does Howard have to have cocaine all over his car confirming all Kim and Saul's lies about him?  Howard had plenty of reason to kill himself without that, he might well have thought  his career and his marriage was over and that's reason enough for any man.

I've loved Rhea Seehorn all through this series, but my unpopular opinion is that she missed it last night.  I was aware of Acting through all her scenes.

[nodorothyparker]

After all of this and with five episodes still to go, I'm less convinced that Howard's "suicide" will just be waved off too. Oh, I think that's eventually where the narrative will settle. But it feels like they're setting up for some uncomfortable questioning and poking around at recent events that may lead to some embarrassing or possibly career-ending revelations that are likely to be eating at Kim and Jimmy and potentially driving them apart in one form or another. Jimmy still hasn't been fully consumed by Saul yet, which means there's still something yet to come, and with the cartel story mostly wrapped up, hey, they've got the time. The realization that Kim knew Lalo was thought to be alive and that what happened was enough of a possibility for Mike to be keeping surveillance on them but didn't bother cluing Jimmy in, with the unspoken assertion that both Mike and Kim thought he was a weaker vessel, is also still out there.

Two observations in the AV Club's writeup and ensuing discussion of this stick out for me, both weirdly about Walter White who has never yet appeared on this show: For all the masterful long game planning and misdirection that both Lalo and Gus were executing that made this final showdown happen, this also showed Mike's fallibility and how even mostly consummate professionals like Gus and Mike were capable of mistakes that allowed Walt to get the best of them in all his blundering. (One of the complaints often lobbed at Mike is that he seems to be everywhere and a step ahead of knowing everything.) Because as Kim screamed at Mike, he did incorrectly calculate the chances of Lalo coming for Jimmy and Kim as so unlikely he left them unprotected and then immediately fell for the first part of the misdirect that sent him and much of his team scurrying over to the condo, leaving Gus with a reduced crew to deal with the second part of it. It also shows the terrible amount of effort and human cost of Gus's operations symbolized by the superlab that Walt so cavalierly destroyed in his hubris.  I remember when we first saw the episodes about the German crew building the thing that many of us thought while it was nice to see how that came about, we weren't sure if it was really worth the amount of screentime and attention it was getting. Now we know why they told us.

[Milburn Stone]

19 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Mike irritated me so much!  Why can't he say the words, "Lalo is dead?"  Why do guys like Mike always have to be cryptic?  "Lalo's not coming back," could just mean not coming back tonight, but Mike would always choose coolness over clarity.

That's a good question. Made me think. The only thing I can come up with is that Mike is protecting himself in the event the DEA ever gives Jimmy or Kim the "third-degree" and they blurt out knowledge that leads back to him.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Milburn Stone

[Sailorgirl26]

19 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Mike irritated me so much!  Why can't he say the words, "Lalo is dead?"  Why do guys like Mike always have to be cryptic?  "Lalo's not coming back," could just mean not coming back tonight, but Mike would always choose coolness over clarity.  Why does Howard have to have cocaine all over his car confirming all Kim and Saul's lies about him?

No. Half. Measures.

[SnarkAttack]

28 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Casting has always deserved an Emmy for this and of course, Tony Dalton himself.  On top of everything else, his death scene was the best I've ever seen, I actually thought I saw his eyes glaze over.

Mike irritated me so much!  Why can't he say the words, "Lalo is dead?"  Why do guys like Mike always have to be cryptic?  "Lalo's not coming back," could just mean not coming back tonight, but Mike would always choose coolness over clarity.  Why does Howard have to have cocaine all over his car confirming all Kim and Saul's lies about him?  Howard had plenty of reason to kill himself without that, he might well have thought  his career and his marriage was over and that's reason enough for any man.

I've loved Rhea Seehorn all through this series, but my unpopular opinion is that she missed it last night.  I was aware of Acting through all her scenes.

Agree about Rhea Seehorn.  When Jimmy and Kim were still at the apartment with Lalo, and then again after everything, I didn't find either one of them believable.

Not only did Lalo's eyes look dead, but I also thought Howard's eye looked dead - no life behind them.   Well done.

[BC4ME]

10 hours ago, SnarkAttack said:

Not only did Lalo's eyes look dead, but I also thought Howard's eye looked dead - no life behind them.   Well done.

Gosh I hope that wasn't the real actors. Death doubles probably but it doesn't make the realistic looking effect less.

Edited to add: It actually was both actors themselves playing dead except when they used stunt doubles like when they threw them in the grave. They played dead good! 

Edited July 12, 2022 by BC4ME

[ctlady]

36 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Mike irritated me so much!  Why can't he say the words, "Lalo is dead?"  Why do guys like Mike always have to be cryptic?

16 minutes ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

No. Half. Measures.

Yep.  This makes me think of the scene from Goodfellas when Jimmy gets the call from a pay phone while awaiting the news of Tommy being 'made' and the voice on the other end just says, "he's gone."  These guys are conditioned to use code - even alone.  You just never know who's listening, watching, etc.  And if Kim/Jimmy were ever put under oath and asked point blank what Mike said, they can't say Mike admitted Lalo was dead

And did anyone else catch the little BB Easter Egg when Lalo was getting the lab tour where he said (paraphrasing), "took a company in Germany 10 years to build this place" as an homage to Madrigal?

[bad things are bad]

9 hours ago, dwmarch said:

Kim was fully prepared to shoot a dude in the face which is kinda wow when I think about it.

Kim knew with utter certainty that Lalo wouldn't hesitate to kill her husband.  Gus, a guy she didn't know,  vs Jimmy dying is a terrible but inevitable choice. 

[SnarkAttack]

15 minutes ago, BC4ME said:

Gosh I hope that wasn't the real actors. Death doubles probably but it doesn't make the realistic looking effect less.

Maybe special effects.

[PeterPirate]

8 minutes ago, ctlady said:

And did anyone else catch the little BB Easter Egg when Lalo was getting the lab tour where he said (paraphrasing), "took a company in Germany 10 years to build this place" as an homage to Madrigal?

Actually, Lalo said "It took a bunch of German engineers 10 months to build all of this."  

Normally I don't nitpick someone else's post.  But in this case Lalo's specificity of time reminded me of this line from Star Trek II:  "It took the Starfleet corps of engineers ten months in space suits to tunnel out all this."  

Quote

I just can't buy that Gus would allow Kim to live for a heckuva lot longer.  He is too careful - as we saw with the gun placement and with the phone call to Lyle creating an alibi for his absence.  If needed, he'd kill some poor soul and pass him off as family if need be to affirm the alibi.  Homey don't play.

Mike respects Kim and will protect her.  

[Children7]

8 hours ago, Penman61 said:

I’d appreciate anyone walking me through just how Gus was sure enough he and Lalo would end up in an underground lab face-off that he planted a gun and marked the steps from power shut-off to planted gun. I trust the show but am missing a few links in this chain.

On 7/10/2022 at 5:31 PM, nodorothyparker said:

Airdate 07.11.2

He could have put the gun there just in case of some unknown threat, but strange that they end up there in that area. And also, why would Gus go to the lab himself, when he could have sent his men. Didn't they realize that Lalo had tricked Gus to have his men leave the lab before? And wouldn't he have had more than one man watching the security cameras for the lab? But mainly the entire thing was a set up for a Western type gunslingers shoot off!

11 hours ago, Crashcourse said:

While we know what happens with Saul, I hope Kim gets eaten up with guilt and offs herself.  Probably won't happen though.

[scenario]

This will be a difficult murder for the police to investigate because you've got to totally unrelated crimes.

So two middle aged married lawyers came up with a Rube Goldberg plot to embarrass a fellow lawyer. It works and the lawyer comes to their house drunk and maybe high in the middle of the night. Then they ruthlessly kill him, dispose of his body without a trace, drive his car hundreds of miles away without leaving a trace of evidence and Jimmy's at his office at 9:20 and Kim's in court at 10:00 the next morning.

If I'm the phony investigator, I'm out of town as soon as I hear that Howards disappeared. If I'm the film crew, I don't know anything about it. 

So the cops find some strange inconsistent things but none of them lead to a cold blooded murder. I'm thinking Kim is much more affected by this then Jimmy is.

He acts pretty normal the next day and Kim's a wreck. When the police investigate they focus on Kim because she's the one acting weird. They have evidence pointing to her doing something but not enough to her being a killer. 

[PeterPirate]

4 minutes ago, scenario said:

This will be a difficult murder for the police to investigate because you've got to totally unrelated crimes.

So two middle aged married lawyers came up with a Rube Goldberg plot to embarrass a fellow lawyer. It works and the lawyer comes to their house drunk and maybe high in the middle of the night. Then they ruthlessly kill him, dispose of his body without a trace, drive his car hundreds of miles away without leaving a trace of evidence and Jimmy's at his office at 9:20 and Kim's in court at 10:00 the next morning.

If I'm the phony investigator, I'm out of town as soon as I hear that Howards disappeared. If I'm the film crew, I don't know anything about it. 

So the cops find some strange inconsistent things but none of them lead to a cold blooded murder. I'm thinking Kim is much more affected by this then Jimmy is.

He acts pretty normal the next day and Kim's a wreck. When the police investigate they focus on Kim because she's the one acting weird. They have evidence pointing to her doing something but not enough to her being a killer. 

Yeah.  All Mike needs to do is hire someone who looks like Howard to drive the Namast3mobile to the Pacific Ocean, stopping only to buy gas.  

No matter how much the police and everyone else suspect J&K, they won't be able to prove anything.  Indeed, the more people suspect them, the more it will drive Saul to be The Criminal Lawyer.  

So J&K are in the clear.

Except for the blood on the candle.  

[SnarkAttack]

1 minute ago, PeterPirate said:

Yeah.  All Mike needs to do is hire someone who looks like Howard to drive the Namast3mobile to the Pacific Ocean, stopping only to buy gas.  

No matter how much the police and everyone else suspect J&K, they won't be able to prove anything.  Indeed, the more people suspect them, the more it will drive Saul to be The Criminal Lawyer.  

So J&K are in the clear.

Except for the blood on the candle.  

Nice catch!  I'll have to re-watch.

[scenario]

I find it interesting that Bob had his heart attack when they were filming the first scene he appeared in in this episode. The confrontation scene with Lalo in their apartment. Half of the scene was filmed before his heart attack and half after he recovered. 

[ctlady]

25 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Actually, Lalo said "It took a bunch of German engineers 10 months to build all of this."

Thanks for the correction.  I could've sworn I heard him say years to which I was like 'what??'  I  usually wait and watch the next day On Demand so I can rewind, but I watched it live last night

[Starchild]

36 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Actually, Lalo said "It took a bunch of German engineers 10 months to build all of this."  

Normally I don't nitpick someone else's post.  But in this case Lalo's specificity of time reminded me of this line from Star Trek II:  "It took the Starfleet corps of engineers ten months in space suits to tunnel out all this."  

Lalo was a Trekkie?! OK I like him a little more now.

[dwmarch]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

Why can't he say the words, "Lalo is dead?"  Why do guys like Mike always have to be cryptic?  "Lalo's not coming back," could just mean not coming back tonight, but Mike would always choose coolness over clarity.

Jimmy (or is it officially Saul now? Everyone keeps calling him Mr. Goodman.) has heard from Mike previously that Lalo was dead and is less inclined to take his word for it after what he just went through. And it's not like Mike can exactly explain that there is a meth superlab under construction where pillar of the community Gus Fring just murdered and buried Lalo. So he has to keep it ambiguous which ties a nice bow on Saul's first words in Breaking Bad. In the beginning of the season I wasn't sure how we would get there but I think they did a great job making that line fit with how this all went.

[Penman61]

I thought Odenkirk and Seehorn's acting in this ep was spot-on. Most of us are probably fortunate enough to not have a lot of first- or second-hand experience with their specific kind of trauma--watching someone die brutally and unexpectedly--but their reactions rang true to me. In those situations, some people "look" like they're under-reacting: no screaming, no rending of garments, no hair-tearing-out. But their affect is like a stunned animal, almost catatonic, robotic. They are in shock. And they go through observable stages, though not in the order the next person might, or even in the same stages, but you can see them change, minute-to-minute, as their own brain begins to wrap around and absorb what they just saw. It's actually heart-breaking because it's really unlike anything else. I thought Seehorn and Odenkirk captured that, imho.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Penman61

[scenario]

12 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

I thought Odenkirk and Seehorn's acting in this ep was spot-on. Most of us are probably fortunate enough to not have a lot of first- or second-hand experience with their specific kind of trauma--watching someone die brutally and unexpectedly--but their reactions rang true to me. In those situations, some people "look" like they're under-reacting: no screaming, no rending of garments, no hair-tearing-out. But their affect is like a stunned animal, almost catatonic, robotic. They are in shock. And they go through observable stages, though not in the order the next person might, or even in the same stages, but you can see them change, minute-to-minute, as their own brain begins to wrap around and absorb what they just saw. It's actually heart-breaking because it's really unlike anything else. I thought Seehorn and Odenkirk captured that, imho.

Real life victims get this all the time. People expect other people to act a certain way in a certain situation. When people don't act the way they expect them to they must be lying.

If you could get a magic camera and film real people in a similar situation to Jimmy and Kim's half of them would look like bad actors to a lot of people. 

[peeayebee]

11 hours ago, maystone said:

I thought it was early for Lalo to leave us, too, until I saw Kim's face when Mike was talking to her and Jimmy. She does have a conscience and a soul, and this night is going to tear them both apart. Or she hardens inside til there's not much human left in there. I think the Jimmy & Kim show is heading toward a reckoning. I can see Jimmy trying to shake it all off and Kim probably not being able to move on in the same way he can.

I think for sure that Jimmy and Kim are going to move forward in different ways. That's going to be great to watch. I just don't know which one will be disturbed more by everything that happened and which one will bury it deep down.

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I wasn't sure at first if Jimmy was throwing Kim under the bus and was happy when she confirmed that he was trying to save her, not hiding behind her. And I loved how that led to Gus's reaction to Lalo being talked out of something.

I was just not astute enuf to figure out right away what Jimmy was doing. My initial thought was that he didn't think he could shoot someone but Kim could, so he was not exactly throwing Kim under the bus, but saving them both by having the one with sterner stuff do the horrible deed. And when Lalo allowed Kim to be the shooter, I just thought he was sick of hearing Jimmy talk. So, yes, when Gus reacted to hearing that Jimmy talked Lalo out of it, a lightbulb went off over my head as well. Lalo didn't care who did he sent to do the deed; he just needed the feint to allow him into the laundromat.

11 hours ago, Dev F said:

I knew the spoilers were real when someone described the opening scene, with Howard's shoes ending up on some beach.

I just don't get why people want to be spoiled. I'm so glad I never visit that thread or hunt for spoilers.

10 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I'd be surprised if we come back to it but if Jimmy and Kim are supposed to report Howard's disappearance themselves, how do they explain his car spending the night? They let him sleep on the couch? He stormed off in a huff and came back for it later then did himself in? 

An easy explanation (that Jimmy and Kim do not need to supply, nor should they try) is that after Howard visited them in their apartment, he went back to his car and sat or fell asleep. Then at some point he drove away. 

10 hours ago, Bannon said:

Howard's "suicide" should cause Saul and Kim lots of problems, and his car being found several states away would likely bring in the Federal law enforcement. Saul and Kim ought to be under a microscope, along with Howard's activities over his last few days and weeks. I hope the writers just don't hand wave that away. 

I don't see it as a hand-wave if the police question Jimmy and Kim and then are satisfied with their answers. Who knows, there may be a brilliant cop who is suspicious of them, but I'm sure Mike ensured that all evidence from their apartment has been cleaned away, and as long as J&K act as if everything is normal, I don't see the law pursuing them. However, I do expect a Tell-Tale Heart situation with one of them.

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I think she was going to make a break for it, and then realized she had to go through with the plan if there was a chance of saving Jimmy. At no point--including her aiming of the gun--did I think she was a cold-blooded killer. She did it against her will to save Jimmy's life as he had tried to save hers.

She did have that moment of talking to the police in the car next to her, but she figured that would be Jimmy's death sentence.

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Casting has always deserved an Emmy for this and of course, Tony Dalton himself.  On top of everything else, his death scene was the best I've ever seen, I actually thought I saw his eyes glaze over.

I know! I thought the exact same thing. That was amazing. 

I thought I quoted someone here who compared the scene of Howard and Lalo in the grave to yin and yang. That was perfect.  Kudos.

Quote

Mike irritated me so much!  Why can't he say the words, "Lalo is dead?"  Why do guys like Mike always have to be cryptic?  "Lalo's not coming back," could just mean not coming back tonight, but Mike would always choose coolness over clarity.  Why does Howard have to have cocaine all over his car confirming all Kim and Saul's lies about him?  Howard had plenty of reason to kill himself without that, he might well have thought  his career and his marriage was over and that's reason enough for any man.

I was a little irritated at Mike being cryptic, too, but as someone else said, these guys have that ingrained in them. Speak in code. 

I thought it was a good idea for Howard's car to have cocaine in it. I mean, why not? It supports the narrative J&K created, and it makes a tidy story for what Howard did in his last hours. There MAY be a cop who wonders about the story, but I really don't think that'll happen. I do wonder if Cliff will have doubts since Howard had explained how Jimmy set him up. 

55 minutes ago, scenario said:

I find it interesting that Bob had his heart attack when they were filming the first scene he appeared in in this episode. The confrontation scene with Lalo in their apartment. Half of the scene was filmed before his heart attack and half after he recovered. 

I'm pretty sure he had his heart attack in his trailer with Rhea and Patrick present.

Edited July 12, 2022 by peeayebee

[maystone]

I did find one bit of humor in the episode. When Mike grabs the gun from Kim and is trying to get her to tell him who she's there to kill, all Kim has is a description of "a housecat who looks like a librarian. In a panic she eyes the group of guys wearing camo-chic and then points at the young Black man in a suit and tie. "Him! I'm supposed to kill him!" The guy's "Wait. What!?" reaction made me laugh.

[Ellaria]

13 minutes ago, dwmarch said:

So he has to keep it ambiguous which ties a nice bow on Saul's first words in Breaking Bad. In the beginning of the season I wasn't sure how we would get there but I think they did a great job making that line fit with how this all went.

Agree that they did a great job. Jimmy hasn’t seen the dead bodies of Nacho or Lalo. Mike did not say the words “Lalo is dead.” In desperate moments, it is not hard to believe that his paranoia about those two bubbles to the surface.

48 minutes ago, scenario said:

If I'm the phony investigator, I'm out of town as soon as I hear that Howards disappeared. If I'm the film crew, I don't know anything about it. 

So the cops find some strange inconsistent things but none of them lead to a cold blooded murder. I'm thinking Kim is much more affected by this then Jimmy is?

Interesting points here. There are plenty of people that are aware of Jimmy and Kim’s scam. There are others like Cliff that must have questions. There are five episodes left. Is there enough time to investigate the events that preceded Howard’s death? And to what end?

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

After all of this and with five episodes still to go, I'm less convinced that Howard's "suicide" will just be waved off too. Oh, I think that's eventually where the narrative will settle. But it feels like they're setting up for some uncomfortable questioning and poking around at recent events that may lead to some embarrassing or possibly career-ending revelations that are likely to be eating at Kim and Jimmy and potentially driving them apart in one form or another. Jimmy still hasn't been fully consumed by Saul yet, which means there's still something yet to come, and with the cartel story mostly wrapped up, hey, they've got the time. The realization that Kim knew Lalo was thought to be alive and that what happened was enough of a possibility for Mike to be keeping surveillance on them but didn't bother cluing Jimmy in, with the unspoken assertion that both Mike and Kim thought he was a weaker vessel, is also still out there.

I think that Howard’s “suicide” will be accepted but the humiliating series of events that occurred prior to his death will raise questions and concerns. Some of these questions will come back around to Jimmy.

There is “something yet to come” that fully drives Jimmy into Saul. The interactions between Jimmy and Kim will play a role. I have contemplated the possible scenarios for Kim a bunch of times. I can’t come up with one that makes sense to me.

Overall, this episode was brilliant. There was tension from the start to the end. Again, poor Howard. He deserved none of this, including his final resting place. Tony Dalton was a great screen presence…in a show full of them. Still, I’m happy to be done with Lalo. As always, the cinematography was stunning and unique. No other show can match it.

[Bannon]

Saying you have knowledge of another person's murder is potentially incriminating. Organized criminals avoid speaking in that way.

[PeterPirate]

55 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I just don't get why people want to be spoiled.

Mileage varies.  Personally, I don't enjoy watching this show.  I find it a highly valuable use of my time to watch it and think about how it relates to my own life and the world around me.  But I don't tune in for the visceral feeling of watching it unspoiled.  

55 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I thought I quoted someone here who compared the scene of Howard and Lalo in the grave to yin and yang. That was perfect.  Kudos.  

When they were tossing Howard and Lalo into the common grave I was thinking about the final scene of Glory.  

Also, Gus can always hire Kim as a lawyer.  I mean, he has a lot of male goons working for him, and any one of them could be considered a risk.  Kim is made of sterner stuff.  

Edited July 12, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Bannon]

Proving that Howard's been murdered would be extremely difficult, especially absent a forensic examination of the place of the murder (we can now say Kim likely owns a condo, and is not renting; swapoing out refrigerators in a rental would be a giveaway), before the place gets new flooring. There's was just two much blood for a mere cleaning.

However, the Howard as a drug addict story simply would not hold up. Getting a hair sample from Howard's home would quickly show that he wasn't a habitual drug user. Having Saul and Kim's antiHoward campaign at least somewhat exposed really is a good source of conflict between Saul and Kim, and within themselves. I really do hope the writers use it 

[Eulipian 5k]

12 hours ago, CynicalGirl said:

Well, he said he wanted to bury them all, then Hector last so Hector could see it all first. And Hector did go last but not exactly according to plan.

Gus suffers for his kills. (except Box Cutter). He poisoned himself to get Don Eladio, he took two bullets to get Lalo, and ruined his goatee to IED Hector, sort of.

Such a satisfying wrap up of all the BCS arcs. It's all BrBa characters from now on in, 'cept Kim and the Taxi Driving Stan.

You could see Saul & Kim are in a sunken place over the night's events, Kim won't recover it seems, that pony tail won't be so tight, (tight! tight! tight! like Tuco) anymore.

I know we all love the idea of Gus burying Lalo in the Fly Jet Blue Lab, but Howie's body tempers the glee. Wow.

[Bannon]

There are some potentially great scenes that could have been written in the remaining episodes, involving Howard's wife, Cliff, maybe even Chuck's ex-wife, back in town for a service of rememberance for Howard. In fact, I'd love to see a scene withHoward's wife, and Chuck's ex, two accomplished women who must know each other. Toss Saul and Kim into the scene, and there would be hazardous eye-daggering going on.

[Eulipian 5k]

12 hours ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

Again, we called that Lalo would end up in the superlab, and we called that they would make Howard's death look like a suicide but did any of us guess they'd bury them together? That's the next level writing that earns the Gilligan/Gould team their well-deserved credit. So simple, so effective, so haunting, and something we wouldn't put together, but they do so seamlessly and it just makes sense. 

Just from the cold opening you could see Mike's genius and know exactly how the dead-body-on-the-floor would end up; with no body to be found. The wedding ring was touching, poor Howard.

[Eulipian 5k]

11 hours ago, dwmarch said:

Does Gus answer his own front door? Probably not. But Lalo sends someone over who (as far as we know) has never committed murder

Kim is the one who knocks!

Lalo knew no one was going to get to kill Gus. He just wanted to move Mike all over the place from the Gus' house to Jimmy's apt., and leave the Lab exposed.

[Starchild]

1 hour ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Interesting points here. There are plenty of people that are aware of Jimmy and Kim’s scam. There are others like Cliff that must have questions. There are five episodes left. Is there enough time to investigate the events that preceded Howard’s death? And to what end?

It's hard to see how the con could be investigated, as it would mean a more thorough investigation of Howard's disappearance, with Jimmy and Kim at the center of it. The surface events of a cocaine-fueled suicide would be automatically suspect, and federally investigated.

By the way, staging the discovery of Howard's car in another state was a brilliant move. Bannon has been rightly stating that Howard's local prominence would ensure a thorough investigation, but placing the case in federal jurisdiction makes Howard a small fish in a big pond, and it would be easy to see the FBI, with a lot of other high-profile cases to focus on, accepting the suicide theory in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, and with corroborating witnesses to his apparent instability.

We know that Jimmy incurs no consequences for Howard's death (he would at minimum be disbarred for his involvement in the con). We also know that there are none for Gus either, seeing as the laundry is still a going concern in BB. The discovery of 2 bodies there would have invalidated it as a place of ongoing criminal activity, especially for someone as careful as Gus.

Sadly, I think Kim and Jimmy get away with it, and poor Howard's reputation is permanently ruined, his true resting place never discovered. That kind of tragedy is on brand for this storyverse.

Then again, perhaps Gene (out of guilt?) will eventually tip off the authorities, as Walt did for Hank. That crumb of redemption would be nice. But Gene doesn't know what happened to Howard's body, so with Mike, Tyrus and Gus dead I can't see that ever happening.

I think Mike's look of regret down at Howard was the show telling us this is the end of Howard's story.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Starchild

[scenario]

3 minutes ago, Starchild said:

It's hard to see how the con could be investigated, as it would mean a more thorough investigation of Howard's disappearance, with Jimmy and Kim at the center of it. The surface events of a cocaine-fueled suicide would be automatically suspect, and federally investigated.

By the way, staging the discovery of Howard's car in another state was a brilliant move. Bannon has been rightly stating that Howard's local prominence would ensure a thorough investigation, but placing the case in federal jurisdiction makes Howard a small fish in a big pond, and it would be easy to see the FBI, with a lot of other high-profile cases to focus on, accepting the suicide theory in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, and with corroborating witnesses to his apparent instability.

We know that Jimmy incurs no consequences for Howard's death (he would at minimum be disbarred for his involvement in the con). We also know that there are none for Gus either, seeing as the laundry is still a going concern in BB. The discovery of 2 bodies there would have invalidated it as a place of ongoing criminal activity, especially for someone as careful as Gus.

Sadly, I think Kim and Jimmy get away with it, and poor Howard's reputation is permanently ruined, his true resting place never discovered. That kind of tragedy is on brand for this storyverse.

Then again, perhaps Gene (out of guilt?) will eventually tip off the authorities, as Walt did for Hank. That crumb redemption would be nice.

It would be nice if Howard's body is discovered at the end. That would make it pretty clear he was a victim of circumstance although plenty of people would still believe Kim and Jimmy's lie. 

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Yeah.  All Mike needs to do is hire someone who looks like Howard to drive the Namast3mobile to the Pacific Ocean, stopping only to buy gas.  

No matter how much the police and everyone else suspect J&K, they won't be able to prove anything.  Indeed, the more people suspect them, the more it will drive Saul to be The Criminal Lawyer.  

So J&K are in the clear.

Except for the blood on the candle.  

I don't think the show's going to handwave away their involvement, but it makes sense to me that they wouldn't go to jail for it. They didn't actually have any motive for killing Howard--they didn't. But Mike's telling them to go to the police themselves when they heard about Howard's death was setting up that they would be questioned. They're at the office bright and early the next day while someone standing in for Howard is no doubt driving the car and buying gas etc. And I don't think everyone would automatically be suspecting them of murdering him like, just as a default, beyond them being the last people to see him alive in town. (Even if people always mistrust them in general in connection to Howard.)

1 hour ago, maystone said:

I did find one bit of humor in the episode. When Mike grabs the gun from Kim and is trying to get her to tell him who she's there to kill, all Kim has is a description of "a housecat who looks like a librarian. In a panic she eyes the group of guys wearing camo-chic and then points at the young Black man in a suit and tie. "Him! I'm supposed to kill him!" The guy's "Wait. What!?" reaction made me laugh.

LOL! That was great. And also so good dramatically because that guy's job is to literally be Gus's stand-in. So on one hand it's funny that she's *not* supposed to kill that guy, but the moment works just as well as if she said she was supposed to kill Gus Fring. 

[Bannon]

20 minutes ago, Starchild said:

It's hard to see how the con could be investigated, as it would mean a more thorough investigation of Howard's disappearance, with Jimmy and Kim at the center of it. The surface events of a cocaine-fueled suicide would be automatically suspect, and federally investigated.

By the way, staging the discovery of Howard's car in another state was a brilliant move. Bannon has been rightly stating that Howard's local prominence would ensure a thorough investigation, but placing the case in federal jurisdiction makes Howard a small fish in a big pond, and it would be easy to see the FBI, with a lot of other high-profile cases to focus on, accepting the suicide theory in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, and with corroborating witnesses to his apparent instability.

We know that Jimmy incurs no consequences for Howard's death (he would at minimum be disbarred for his involvement in the con). We also know that there are none for Gus either, seeing as the laundry is still a going concern in BB. The discovery of 2 bodies there would have invalidated it as a place of ongoing criminal activity, especially for someone as careful as Gus.

Sadly, I think Kim and Jimmy get away with it, and poor Howard's reputation is permanently ruined, his true resting place never discovered. That kind of tragedy is on brand for this storyverse.

Then again, perhaps Gene (out of guilt?) will eventually tip off the authorities, as Walt did for Hank. That crumb of redemption would be nice. But Gene doesn't know what happened to Howard's body, so with Mike, Tyrus and Gus dead I can't see that ever happening.

I think Mike's look of regret down at Howard was the show telling us this is the end of Howard's story.

Kind of disagree here. The more eyes there on this, the more likely it would be (this wouldn't be a case of the FBI bigfooting q local investigation, it would be a case of a city police dept. getting access to FBI resources) that somebody thinks to confirm what drugs Howard was abusing, if any, and asks Howard's wife for access to his hair brush. Shortly thereafter, it's learned that Howard wasn't abusing drugs. The thread get pulled, and more things unravel.

[Colorado David]

3 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

That's a good question. Made me think. The only thing I can come up with is that Mike is protecting himself in the event the DEA ever gives Jimmy or Kim the "third-degree" and they blurt out knowledge that leads back to him.

Exactly. Mike is deliberately cryptic, as the less detail he gives, the more protection for him should Jimmy or anyone else rat out the situation.

Good episode, tho yeah Gus' psychic abilities on knowing that Lalo would want a tour of the lab is a little too convenient plot-wise IMO.   If I'm a hit-man, as soon as I have Gus in that fan hallway and I've got a bead on his skull, he's gone. Get in, do it, get out.  Gloating and disclosing your plan always seems to be the downfall of the bad guys.

Ok, someone help me here - I missed why the fridge had to be replaced? If it was prints or something they could've just sterilized the old one.

[nodorothyparker]

They hauled Howard's body out in the fridge. There's a shot of Jimmy looking through the bedroom door where he can see Howard being folded into it.

Mike also told Jimmy before all of this that Lalo was going to be taken out and look how that turned out. Short of seeing the body for himself, how could he ever really know for sure this time regardless of what Mike says now?

Someone said that Howard under the superlab may prove to be the Tell-Tale Heart of this last stretch for Jimmy and probably especially Kim. I like that. I think it fits. Up until now, their scams haven't really hurt anyone and they could tell themselves that the end justified the means or for the greater good or whatever and mostly believe it. But now Howard is dead, his reputation forever in tatters because of them. Kim was in enough fear for Jimmy's life that she was ready to go murder a complete stranger, again because of what they did. Now they're going to have to be around other lawyers and people who knew Howard at the courthouse and other places every day who know something happened to him. But they have to live the lie that they don't know anymore than anyone else every single day going forward.

[Penman61]

9 minutes ago, Colorado David said:

Ok, someone help me here - I missed why the fridge had to be replaced? If it was prints or something they could've just sterilized the old one.

The old fridge was used to transport Howard's body out of the apartment. There was a shot of Jimmy looking at the open fridge with Howard's body in it.

ETA NoDorothyParker answered quicker. :)

Edited July 12, 2022 by Penman61

[Eulipian 5k]

There's no evidence of "foul play" in Howard's disappearance, why is it not a suicide? Most disappearances are considered runaways until "evidence of foul play" turns up. Howard could be in a fugue state, and there's much more evidence of depression and failure regarding Howard. Why would Kim or Jimmy have motive to harm Howard? The Leaving Las Vegas, "I'll snort myself to death" scenario works better than any other explanation.

"It's a pleasure watching you work,  Mr.Wolf, Mike."

[BC4ME]

When Mike said take Howard's car to the warehouse, it made me wonder if they were just going to transport it in a truck out of view. That would avoid any stops for gas and whatnot with surveillance cameras. Especially after Mike said they would roll the odometer the the exact milage where the car was found. I think they transported the car.

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

There's no evidence of "foul play" in Howard's disappearance, why is it not a suicide? Most disappearances are considered runaways until "evidence of foul play" turns up. Howard could be in a fugue state, and there's much more evidence of depression and failure regarding Howard. Why would Kim or Jimmy have motive to harm Howard? The Leaving Las Vegas, "I'll snort myself to death" scenario works better than any other explanation.

"It's a pleasure watching you work,  Mr.Wolf, Mike."

Howard was the senior partner in one of a state's largest law firms. Absent a body, it's simply not going to be taken at face value that he drove several states away to drown himself in the ocean. His disappearance causes huge problems for his wife, his employees, fellow partners, his life insurer (Howard most certainly has a substantial life insurance policy), all the beneficiaries of his life insurance policy, etc., etc.,. Questions would be asked, and resources would be employed to get answers.

[Adiba]

10 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

There's no evidence of "foul play" in Howard's disappearance, why is it not a suicide? Most disappearances are considered runaways until "evidence of foul play" turns up. Howard could be in a fugue state, and there's much more evidence of depression and failure regarding Howard. Why would Kim or Jimmy have motive to harm Howard? The Leaving Las Vegas, "I'll snort myself to death" scenario works better than any other explanation.

"It's a pleasure watching you work,  Mr.Wolf, Mike."

I don’t think it is officially ruled as a suicide if no body is found. As for “no evidence of foul play” — how can that be officially determined with no body?  
A case in the town nearby me had a young woman’s murder staged to look like a drug overdose. Her body, however, told investigators another story. She was murdered by her ex- girlfriend and said girlfriend’s husband. She was nobody and the police investigated.
So, without Howard’s body, there can’t be a concrete determination of suicide—only an assumption.

[Sharper2002]

28 minutes ago, Colorado David said:

Good episode, tho yeah Gus' psychic abilities on knowing that Lalo would want a tour of the lab is a little too convenient plot-wise IMO.   If I'm a hit-man, as soon as I have Gus in that fan hallway and I've got a bead on his skull, he's gone. Get in, do it, get out.  Gloating and disclosing your plan always seems to be the downfall of the bad guys.

I agree about letting Gus have his monologue down in the lab, but Lalo needed to keep Gus alive when they were above ground to bring him downstairs for Eladio’s video tour. I don’t even know if he ever intended to kill Gus yet because he was gathering proof to share with Eladio and he didn’t have approval to kill Gus who was a high earner. I think his plan was to get the video to Eladio and once Eladio sees the proof, Lalo could either go back and execute Gus or let the cartel do what they will. 

[Constantinople]

This just makes me more convinced than ever that after everything Gus has been through to build the superlab, he would never replace reliable Gale with Walter, who is "not a cautious man at all" and who has "poor judgement". Increasing the meth's purity from 96% to 99% isn't worth it.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Constantinople
Grammar

[Bannon]

23 minutes ago, Adiba said:

I don’t think it is officially ruled as a suicide if no body is found. As for “no evidence of foul play” — how can that be officially determined with no body?  
A case in the town nearby me had a young woman’s murder staged to look like a drug overdose. Her body, however, told investigators another story. She was murdered by her ex- girlfriend and said girlfriend’s husband. She was nobody and the police investigated.
So, without Howard’s body, there can’t be a concrete determination of suicide—only an assumption.

It would take years to have Howard simply legally declared dead, and without a body, you're right, there'd never be an official specific cause of death.

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Lalo knew no one was going to get to kill Gus. He just wanted to move Mike all over the place from the Gus' house to Jimmy's apt., and leave the Lab exposed.

Spot on.  The history of warfare is replete with all sorts of feints intended to get the enemy to move his forces away from the real target of attack.  Probably the best known is how the Allies kept George Patton close to the Pas de Calaise when the real attack was going to be at Normandy.  Other notable examples are Napoleon abandoning the high ground at Austerlitz, the Normans pretending to retreat at Hastings, and Hannibal crushing the Romans at Cannae. 

Examples of the enemy commander figuring out the feint are harder to come by.  Off the top of my head I can only think about Meade being ready for Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg.   

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Kim is the one who knocks!  

Hell yeah.  HELL YEAH!  

I'm breaking bad, folks.  I want Kim to go dark.  She's going to be the wolf in sheep's clothing and Jimmy is going to be the sheep in wolf's clothing.    

[anoninrva]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

Someone said that Howard under the superlab may prove to be the Tell-Tale Heart of this last stretch for Jimmy and probably especially Kim. I like that. I think it fits. Up until now, their scams haven't really hurt anyone and they could tell themselves that the end justified the means or for the greater good or whatever and mostly believe it. But now Howard is dead, his reputation forever in tatters because of them. Kim was in enough fear for Jimmy's life that she was ready to go murder a complete stranger, again because of what they did. Now they're going to have to be around other lawyers and people who knew Howard at the courthouse and other places every day who know something happened to him. But they have to live the lie that they don't know anymore than anyone else every single day going forward.

Hank and Gomez do investigate the lab and don't find it, though.  It's worth pointing out that the lab is still under construction here, but by Breaking Bad, is fully built, with flooring, etc.  Since it is deep underground, full demolition seems unlikely, but I guess it is somewhat open what happens to Gus' empire after he dies.

[Bannon]

I do think we're going to see, in the remaining episodes, Saul sign off on somebody's murder very flippantly, like we see in BB, and then the transformation will be complete. The Jimmy who was horrified by the prospect of Tuco killing the meathead skateboard scammers is long gone, but the Saul who casually suggests that somebody be killed/sent to Belize, to solve a problem, hasn't quite arrived. Seeing Howard murdered in front of him was a substantial final step, I think.