S06.E08: Point and Shoot

[scenario]

59 minutes ago, BC4ME said:

I'm sure it's been brought up here before but in BB Jimmy tells Francesca that he's expecting a call on his birthday and to be sure to look for it. IDK what will happen but I've always used that line to help me hope it's from Kim, wherever she is.

It's probably someone asking him about his car warrantee. 

[Colorado David]

i wonder what vince gilligan's next project will be? hopefully we won't have to wait too long after BCS wraps up.

[Cinnabon]

IF Kim told the police what was going on, I have a feeling that their greatest concern would be getting Lalo Salamanca. They would likely consider Jimmy to be collateral damage. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Cinnabon

[JudyObscure]

5 hours ago, scenario said:

This really comes across a having a touch of blaming the victim. If I was in that situation, I would never have done that. I'd have used my non existent fighting skills to take the gun away from Lalo and stop him.

Kim was terrorized. She was in a total state of panic. She wasn't capable of thinking clearly. People in a state of panic don't think clearly. 

Where did I suggest she fight Lalo? I'm talking about going to the police. She wasn't in a state of panic if she could drive and follow written directions at the same time.  

It doesn't take thirty minutes  to say, "My husband is being held hostage by a man with a gun who says he will shoot him if I call the police or don't get back in 45 minutes."  She doesn't have to go into the whole story about why until later.

Blaming the victim?  The victim would be the dead man at Gus' Fringe's house. I'm hearing a lot of "sure it's okay to kill someone if your family is in danger."  That's not blaming the victim that's excusing the murderer.  That's how the Salamancas and Walter White think,  in their minds it's all okay because it's for family. 

[JudyObscure]

4 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

IF Kim told the police what was going on, I have a feeling that their greatest concern would be getting Lalo Salamanca. They would likely consider Jimmy to be collateral damage. 

If she told them who it was. 

[carrps]

On 7/11/2022 at 9:56 PM, scenario said:

Howard bought a bunch of coke and started driving and driving. He filled up his car in a self service gas station with a broke camera in the middle of nowhere. He drove and drove and a couple of days later he finally reached the sea.

L.A. is a bit less than 800 miles from Albuquerque. You can do it one run (with gas/bathroom breaks).

[scenario]

17 minutes ago, carrps said:

L.A. is a bit less than 800 miles from Albuquerque. You can do it one run (with gas/bathroom breaks).

I can be done in one trip but by the story, Howard wasn't in any condition to plan anything. He was driving aimlessly. He didn't plan anything until he got to the ocean. 

[nodorothyparker]

13 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Where did I suggest she fight Lalo? I'm talking about going to the police. She wasn't in a state of panic if she could drive and follow written directions at the same time.  

It doesn't take thirty minutes  to say, "My husband is being held hostage by a man with a gun who says he will shoot him if I call the police or don't get back in 45 minutes."  She doesn't have to go into the whole story about why until later.

There's plenty of historical examples of people being traumatized or terrorized enough that they can't do anything but follow orders. They'll do it in the dim hope that maybe it will keep them safe, even if the evidence strongly suggest otherwise. It doesn't require much thinking to just do what you're told. 

I saw Kim looking at the police and rolling down her window as trying to fight through that only to realize it's too late for that. The impulse to trust cops to help us is so ingrained in a lot of us from early on, and I would imagine it's even more so for someone who's made the law her career. But Lalo short circuited any thoughts she may have had about that by putting her on the clock. She's later screaming at Mike that she only has 20 minutes to get back. The likelihood the cops can do anything in that allotted time but go in guns a blazing and get Jimmy killed isn't high. Sure, she just saw Lalo murder Howard as if it was nothing and the probability that he won't kill Jimmy too even if she makes it back in time also probably isn't great, but it's what she's holding on to. If she just does what she's told right now, maybe they'll still get through this. Fear can be an incredibly powerful motivator.

I know Jimmy talked his way into sending Kim out of the condo in hopes it would at least save her, but my hunch is that being driven to the point that she would have murdered a complete stranger isn't something she's going to easily be able to get over.

[scenario]

38 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Where did I suggest she fight Lalo? I'm talking about going to the police. She wasn't in a state of panic if she could drive and follow written directions at the same time.  

It doesn't take thirty minutes  to say, "My husband is being held hostage by a man with a gun who says he will shoot him if I call the police or don't get back in 45 minutes."  She doesn't have to go into the whole story about why until later.

Blaming the victim?  The victim would be the dead man at Gus' Fringe's house. I'm hearing a lot of "sure it's okay to kill someone if your family is in danger."  That's not blaming the victim that's excusing the murderer.  That's how the Salamancas and Walter White think,  in their minds it's all okay because it's for family. 

One thing you hear when women are attacked is, "Why didn't she run/fight back/...  I would have never done that. She must have wanted it." Whenever I hear words such as "If I was in that situation" it sends off warning bells in my head. 

Also, it is possible for criminals to also be victims. Howard was Lalo's victim. Kim did awful things but compared to Lalo, she's a saint.  Seeing someone you know shot in front of you is likely to mess you up. 

If she told the cops that her husband is being held, the cops would not have been subtle about it. They would have either sent in 20 cop cars all at once or they'd have taken her back to the station for her own good and interview her for an hour or two and then maybe send one patrol car over to look around. 

If you want to see a situation about how cops react to a possible shooting situation there was a school shooting not that long ago, where the cops just sat there and let school children get murdered one by one. Trusting cops to handle the situation is very risky. 

[Cinnabon]

7 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

There's plenty of historical examples of people being traumatized or terrorized enough that they can't do anything but follow orders. They'll do it in the dim hope that maybe it will keep them safe, even if the evidence strongly suggest otherwise. It doesn't require much thinking to just do what you're told. 

I saw Kim looking at the police and rolling down her window as trying to fight through that only to realize it's too late for that. The impulse to trust cops to help us is so ingrained in a lot of us from early on, and I would imagine it's even more so for someone who's made the law her career. But Lalo short circuited any thoughts she may have had about that by putting her on the clock. She's later screaming at Mike that she only has 20 minutes to get back. The likelihood the cops can do anything in that allotted time but go in guns a blazing and get Jimmy killed isn't high. Sure, she just saw Lalo murder Howard as if it was nothing and the probability that he won't kill Jimmy too even if she makes it back in time also probably isn't great, but it's what she's holding on to. If she just does what she's told right now, maybe they'll still get through this. Fear can be an incredibly powerful motivator.

I know Jimmy talked his way into sending Kim out of the condo in hopes it would at least save her, but my hunch is that being driven to the point that she would have murdered a complete stranger isn't something she's going to easily be able to get over.

Great post. I think Jimmy sent her in the hopes that she would drive far away and not come back. He was sacrificing his life for hers. But she wouldn’t do that.

[nodorothyparker]

1 minute ago, Cinnabon said:

I think Jimmy sent her in the hopes that she would drive far away and not come back. He was sacrificing his life for hers.

They've all said as much in every interview I've seen this week. Jimmy was willing to stay and risk Lalo killing him if it meant Kim could get away.  I haven't seen any of them weigh in on whether Jimmy would have thought Kim would actually try to carry out the hit to try to save him.

[scenario]

Just now, nodorothyparker said:

They've all said as much in every interview I've seen this week. Jimmy was willing to stay and risk Lalo killing him if it meant Kim could get away.  I haven't seen any of them weigh in on whether Jimmy would have thought Kim would actually try to carry out the hit to try to save him.

Probably not. Kim is a con woman. She might think of something. And Jimmy didn't care. He was willing to die for her. Probably the last altruistic thing that Saul will ever do. 

Jimmy, maybe. Gene, maybe. But not Saul. 

[Lonesome Rhodes]

If they go disappearer, it would really suck {ducking}.

What would not suck is if G&G use Badfinger's "Come and Get It" to play out to black in the finale.  

I love the myriad remaining variables still available after this ep closed the door on two major characters.  The anticipation of cameos by certain BB folks is also awesome.

I've been thinking a lot after viewing this ep in particular.  A main concept that comes up a lot is that it is sometimes better to die than to go on.  Is it better for Saul to go on, knowing he will forever be looking over his shoulder and that his main purpose is to free the worst of the worst?  It seems to me one of the points G&G have been making is that being Gene was a fate worse than death for our Jimmy.  Same was portrayed in re Chuck, eh?

My biggest story concern going forward is how Cliff will react to Kim's no-show and the timing of the goings on in this ep.  I am reeeeeeeally hoping TPTB won't require too large a suspension of disbelief.

[SimplexFish]

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

They've all said as much in every interview I've seen this week. Jimmy was willing to stay and risk Lalo killing him if it meant Kim could get away.  I haven't seen any of them weigh in on whether Jimmy would have thought Kim would actually try to carry out the hit to try to save him.

By Jimmy convincing Lalo to keep him there instead of the way he originally said we knew that Saul was not going to be killed, if Kim would have stayed it would have been more suspenseful because we know shes not gonna be around long one way or another. 

Edited July 16, 2022 by SimplexFish

[PeterPirate]

On 7/15/2022 at 8:45 AM, Cinnabon said:

On 7/15/2022 at 3:19 AM, PeterPirate said:

Kim had the opportunity to get the help of the police, and she didn't.  She attempted to carry out her mission and even drew the gun.  She is indeed made of sterner stuff.  Conscience be damned.  

If your wife, mom, sister, your child was being kept captive until you shot someone, would you do differently than Kim did? Knowing that the person holding your child captive wouldn’t hesitate to kill them as soon as the police approached? She just saw him kill Howard in a split second. He would’ve have hesitated to shoot Jimmy (she believed, not knowing Lalo’s real plan). I was just thinking about this, and what if he had my mom or child captive like that. I might do what Kim did, even though like Kim (and Jimmy) I’ve never even held a gun (and don’t ever plan to).

Honestly, I don't accept the premise of the question.  I am not a criminal, and therefore would never find myself in that type of situation.  I know of no instances in real life where an honest person was coerced into committing a murder because they had a family member who had been kidnapped.  

Kim, on the other hand, is a criminal.  She participated in the scheme to get Lalo out of jail.  She put herself in the game, and by going to Gus' house she chose to stay in the game.   

Whether Kim talked to the police or simply kept on driving, the result would have been two dead bodies in her apartment.  Without Mike to clean things up there would have been no way to keep it secret.  Her personal life and professional life would have been over.  Shooting Gus was the only way for her to keep what she had, and she chose that over the life of another person.  

And now that Kim is on Gus' radar, if he stays true to form he will try to recruit her into working for him.  And if she stays true to form, she will readily accept.  In for a penny, in for a pound.  

Also, my apologies if my post seems indifferent to the real-life situations that many vulnerable people find themselves in at the hands of predatory types.  As I have said before, this show is valuable in evoking thoughts about the world at large.  I just think Kim is in a different league.  She's not a victim any more than the guy who had his head strapped to the back of a tortoise was a victim.  She is not a saint, even when compared to Lalo.  She is Lalo's accomplice.  And she's a criminal.  

Edited July 16, 2022 by PeterPirate

[BC4ME]

On 7/15/2022 at 9:01 PM, scenario said:

One thing you hear when women are attacked is, "Why didn't she run/fight back/...  I would have never done that. She must have wanted it." Whenever I hear words such as "If I was in that situation" it sends off warning bells in my head. 

I agree. Having been a victim of violence, I can say you never know what you'll do. As Mike Tyson said, "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."

Edited July 18, 2022 by BC4ME

[peeayebee]

3 hours ago, BC4ME said:

As Mick Tyson said, "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."

😆

10 hours ago, SimplexFish said:

By Jimmy convincing Lalo to keep him there instead of the way he originally said we knew that Saul was not going to be killed, if Kim would have stayed it would have been more suspenseful because we know shes not gonna be around long one way or another. 

Yes, I can see that would have been more suspenseful, but I like the way it happened. It was nice seeing Jimmy work so hard to save Kim and sacrifice himself. His mouth is his gift. Also, I can't see Jimmy shooting someone, or even making a real attempt. 

[PeterPirate]

Courtney's review of the episode.  It is chock full of interesting stuff.  

For one thing, I learned the beach scene was filmed at the same location where Donnie's ashes were scattered in The Big Lebowski.  

She also gives an excellent explanation of why Lalo agreed to let Kim make the attempt on Gus.  

Edited July 16, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Alexander Pope]

On 7/11/2022 at 7:07 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Of course Mike and his cleanup crew make Howard’s death look like a coke binge suicide. I wonder if his wife will even care enough to question it. Both him and Lalo being buried in the lab was creepy; seems unfair that Howard’s final indignity is sharing his final resting place with his killer.

I think Mike felt the same way about Howard's end.  His face when he was looking at the two bodies facing each other in fetal position in the same grave spoke volumes.  Jonathan Banks earned an Emmy last night too IMO.

[SimplexFish]

14 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

 She's not a victim any more than the guy who had his head strapped to the back of a tortoise was a victim.  She is not a saint, even when compared to Lalo.  She is Lalo's accomplice.  And she's a criminal.  

Well said!

[Joimiaroxeu]

Why did Kim want those police officers who pulled up next to her to see her face? That might come back to haunt her if they later remember seeing her out driving. It won't jibe with the story Mike told her and Jimmy to tell.

So Kim didn't know what Gus looked like, or was she unable to distinguish between Black men probably 30 years apart in age? (Or maybe she did know who Gus was and she was doing some CYA?)

Gus should've listened to Mike though. Lalo was playing 3-D chess, albeit with too much trash-trashing towards the end. That situtation could've gone hella sideways for Gus if Lalo hadn't decided to be a Bond villain and run his mouth too long.

Dang, Gus put on quite a performance for Lalo while he was positioning himself to shut the lights off. How could he be sure though that Lalo wouldn't just shoot him in the head to shut him up? Oh well, you gotta love it when a fallback plan comes together. 😉

Vince Gilligan: Ozymandias is the best episode ever? Hold my Dos Equis.
Joi: nah but this one is up there.

[Constantinople]

23 hours ago, scenario said:

Also, it is possible for criminals to also be victims. Howard was Lalo's victim

How is Howard a criminal?

[peeayebee]

2 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Why did Kim want those police officers who pulled up next to her to see her face? That might come back to haunt her if they later remember seeing her out driving. It won't jibe with the story Mike told her and Jimmy to tell.

I didn't see it as Kim wanting them to see her face. I think she was considering getting their attention and telling them what was going on. But she backed out.

Watching that Courtney review ep -- always a pleasure -- when she talked about Lalo's death face, it reminded me of The Joker. I wonder if that was intentional.

[peeayebee]

I just listened to the Insider Podcast about this ep. They talked about Bob's heart attack. One thing they said was that when it happened they couldn't say that Tony Dalton was present because that would be a spoiler. That makes sense. However, I was sure that I had read an interview with Bob where he said that he, Rhea, and Patrick were in his trailer when it happened, and that he was on his exercise bike. Does anyone else remember reading/hearing that? I can understand telling the story and leaving out Tony, but I don't see why they wouldn't say it was on set. Of course I wouldn't be surprised -- well, a little -- if I was misremembering. I also thought the heart attack had happened after he did scenes in the desert.

I'd appreciate any clarification about any of this. I will also probably try to find the interview with Bob that I read.

ETA: So I found the article.

Quote

"We were shooting a scene, we'd been shooting all day, and luckily I didn't go back to my trailer," Odenkirk shared in an interview published on Wednesday. Instead, he went to an area near some of his co-workers, and that decision likely made the difference between life and death.

"I went to play the Cubs game and ride my workout bike, and I just went down," Odenkirk said, adding that his co-star, Rhea Seehorn, came to his aid and later told him that he "started turning bluish-gray right away."

Seehorn and co-star Patrick Fabian called for help immediately after Odenkirk fell, and the on-set health safety supervisor and one the assistant directors began performing CPR after calling for medics.

So obviously I misremembered.  I guess when I read the bolded part I read that as he was in his trailer (which he just said he wasn't). Anyway, I'm glad I cleared that up for myself. This kind of stuff bothers me. So... nothing to see here.

Edited July 17, 2022 by peeayebee
Found it!

[scenario]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

How is Howard a criminal?

Lalo is the criminal. Howard was not a criminal but he was a victim of Lalo. Saul and Kim are criminals and also victims of Lalo. He terrorized both of them and made them terrified for their lives. I feel sorry for Howard. I do not particularly feel sad for Saul and Kim but the fact that they are both pretty awful people doesn't mean they weren't victims. 

Edited July 17, 2022 by scenario

[MrWhyt]

6 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

So Kim didn't know what Gus looked like, or was she unable to distinguish between Black men probably 30 years apart in age? (Or maybe she did know who Gus was and she was doing some CYA?)

Kim's never met Gus

[Dev F]

8 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Gus should've listened to Mike though. Lalo was playing 3-D chess, albeit with too much trash-trashing towards the end. That situtation could've gone hella sideways for Gus if Lalo hadn't decided to be a Bond villain and run his mouth too long.

One thing episode writer Gordon Smith pointed out in an interview that I don't know if I would've realized myself: It wasn't just a matter of narrative convenience that Lalo let the pre-show go on too long. Gus manipulated him into doing it based on his experience at Nacho's execution. "I thought of it in terms of taking what he saw Nacho do before he died and using it as a tactic. He saw that as Nacho was standing there spilling out all that stuff, Hector, all those people who could have killed him right then, they didn’t, because they all wanted to hear it, so their hate could be justified"

Which sort of ties in with what I was saying earlier about Gus seeming to get the better of dire circumstances by plotting harder than everyone else, but in fact he's only delayed his inevitable fall. Gus took a clever lesson from Nacho's sacrifice, but it was the wrong lesson. Nacho didn't escape the game and probably save his father by tap-dancing harder than everyone else; he escaped by giving up the tap-dance, accepting that the only way out was out.

To quote one of my favorite lines from Jesus Christ Superstar: "To conquer death, you only have to die."

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

He saw that as Nacho was standing there spilling out all that stuff, Hector, all those people who could have killed him right then, they didn’t, because they all wanted to hear it, so their hate could be justified"

Yes!  I hadn't really thought of that.  They all see themselves as royalty of some sort -- not for nothing are they know as drug Lords. You could hear it in Lalo's absolute outrage that people dared attack him in his home! Crossing the moat into his castle and killing his favorite servants! 

So, of course, like the Mafia of the last century they glorify themselves with long speeches about honor and loyalty. Lalo wanted to record Gus's bitter last words before he killed him, so he could play them for Hector later as they laughed and celebrated their victory.

[PeterPirate]

There was also this from the article, regarding the line "It was Ignacio!"

Quote

There was a difference of opinion about whether we needed to explain it. Some people were more firmly on the side of, “No, we really want to get to an explanation.” And others felt like, “Eh, if we get to it, we get to it. No big deal. It won’t kill anything as long as we’ve done the dramatic work we were trying to do.” Obviously, the folks who wanted it to be in there won. Or I hope we won. I hope we’ve convinced the naysayers in the room, [who] will remain unnamed, that it was worth doing.  

I for one think it was well worth the effort.  Yes, it required Gus to be a super genius, and Lalo to be a Bond villain.  There's also the illogic of Lalo telling Jimmy he would be back when he knew Gus' crew was going to show up at the apartment.  But in the end they fit the story into the BB narrative and that's what matters.

[wendyg]

Not sure that's illogical. It's covering the bases just in case, I think. Better that Jimmy is schooled to think this is the real plot.

I believe Gilligan and co have far too much respect for Robert Forster to cast anyone else as the - or even *a*  - Disappearer.

[PeterPirate]

18 minutes ago, wendyg said:

Not sure that's illogical. It's covering the bases just in case, I think. Better that Jimmy is schooled to think this is the real plot.  

Possibly.  Lalo's plan was to get to the launderia, film the superlab, and then get to Mexico to prevent the evidence to Don Eladio.  There was no value in going back to J&K's place that night, even without the added risk of running into Gus' men.

It's possible Lalo planned on re-visiting the Goodmans after meeting with Eladio.  Their continued existence would be a threat to him if he wanted the authorities to still believe he was dead.  That would mean killing both of them.  If he only killed Jimmy, Kim likely would have spilled the beans to the police.  

Or maybe he wanted to keep a couple of American lawyers on his payroll.  So who knows.  

[wendyg]

On 7/13/2022 at 1:47 PM, Milburn Stone said:

I don't know why it occurred to me during this episode, because it applies to all the episodes, but maybe Kim and Jimmy's sacrifice for each other is what put it in my head.

Namely, they're the only characters in the show who have devoted partners.

Howard had a wife, but they seem to be estranged at best.

Gus, Mike, Lalo, Cliff--nada. As with Howard, we never even see what they do for temporary companionship. I think it would be a mistake for the show to develop such partner-characters; but not ever to show them, or have them so much as referred to in conversation, is making a point.

The only time we see women for any of the men is when the men are lower-level functionaries and the women are basically whores. I suppose some of Jimmy and Kim's public defendants have wives, but those characters are far off satellites in the overall scheme of the show. We do know of the devoted wife of the head German engineer, but she is literally far off. It's as if the male characters not only don't have even temporary companionship, it's as if they don't need even temporary companionship.

I'm not at all saying it's illogical the male characters other than Jimmy would lack partners. It's totally logical. It's just interesting. I think it helps create the feeling of Jimmy/Kim as the only human characters at the center of an inhuman universe.

Gus and Max were clearly devoted to each other, and that has extended past Max's death, which Gus has clearly never gotten over.

I think with the others we can see the flaws that likely drove their former partners away.  Chuck's egotism, pride, and unforgiving nature likely alienated Rebecca. Mike is too filled with self-hatred and guilt from his son's death (and the risks of his current job) to be comfortable letting anyone too close.

If Lalo has female companions he'd be keeping them well away from the crap he's doing, so it's not unreasonable we wouldn't see anyone. He certainly had little trouble befriending Werner's widow..

[peeayebee]

2 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

There was also this from the article, regarding the line "It was Ignacio!"

I for one think it was well worth the effort.  Yes, it required Gus to be a super genius, and Lalo to be a Bond villain. 

In the podcast Gilligan admitted that very early on when writers brought up dealing with the Lalo/Ignacio lines from BB, he didn't think it was important to explain, but of course now he thinks it was the right move. In one sense, it was fan-service, but not fleeting, superficial fan-service because we got two great characters out of it.

Quote

There's also the illogic of Lalo telling Jimmy he would be back when he knew Gus' crew was going to show up at the apartment.  But in the end they fit the story into the BB narrative and that's what matters.

I think it makes sense for Lalo to have told Jimmy he would be back even if he planned not to return (and I don't think he planned to return). He left Jimmy fearing Lalo's return, which was better, in Lalo's mind, than just tying him up and walking out. Jimmy didn't know what Lalo was going to do when he went out -- Go after Kim? -- or what he would do when he returned -- Kill Jimmy? Bring Kim back and kill one in front of the other?

I don't know how serious Lalo was about saying Jimmy was in cahoots with Nacho. Again, I wonder if he brought that up just to torture Jimmy's mind. Since he 'knew' Mike and his guys would come to the condo and rescue Jimmy, he wouldn't have had plans to return and question him.

[PeterPirate]

2 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I think it makes sense for Lalo to have told Jimmy he would be back even if he planned not to return (and I don't think he planned to return). He left Jimmy fearing Lalo's return, which was better, in Lalo's mind, than just tying him up and walking out. Jimmy didn't know what Lalo was going to do when he went out -- Go after Kim? -- or what he would do when he returned -- Kill Jimmy? Bring Kim back and kill one in front of the other?

I don't know how serious Lalo was about saying Jimmy was in cahoots with Nacho. Again, I wonder if he brought that up just to torture Jimmy's mind. Since he 'knew' Mike and his guys would come to the condo and rescue Jimmy, he wouldn't have had plans to return and question him.

I suppose.  Once Mike burst into the apartment and found Lalo gone, he would know Lalo was on his way to somewhere else, regardless of whether he found Jimmy alive.  

I just think they wrote the scene to fit everything into BB.  I don't think they spent as much pondering Lalo's motives as us internet crackpots.  

Edited July 17, 2022 by PeterPirate
Pronouns

[Starchild]

The elegance of the writing to accomplish the tie-in to that throwaway line in BB... I can't even.

This show is so good.

[peeayebee]

2 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I don't think they spent as much pondering Lalo's motives as us internet crackpots.  

Crackpots!?! Why I oughta....

[EdwinSorrow]

Just a gorgeous episode, engrossing and moving. I initially had problems with how anticlimactic and predictable Lalo's fate felt, but I've now come around on seeing the tragedy in him dying and being buried in the very lab whose existence he was obsessed with proving. 

That cold open was probably my favourite of the series so far. 

Edited July 17, 2022 by EdwinSorrow

[Starchild]

3 hours ago, Starchild said:

The elegance of the writing to accomplish the tie-in to that throwaway line in BB... I can't even.

This show is so good.

Oh and not only that line, but I read an article that reiterated that in BB, when Hank investigated the lab explosion, he mentioned finding two bodies under it.

My god, the attention to detail. The extraordinary skill at weaving these very disparate threads together into a breathtaking television tapestry with such artistry.

I've never felt in better showrunner hands than these ones. No superlatives are too much.

[SusieQ]

26 minutes ago, Starchild said:

Oh and not only that line, but I read an article that reiterated that in BB, when Hank investigated the lab explosion, he mentioned finding two bodies under it.

My god, the attention to detail. The extraordinary skill at weaving these very disparate threads together into a breathtaking television tapestry with such artistry.

I've never felt in better showrunner hands than these ones. No superlatives are too much.

Weren't those the two bodies of the guys who grabbed Jesse off the street and handcuffed him and told him to start cooking? Walt shot them and then Walt and Jesse burned down the lab.

That's the two bodies I assumed Hank meant. Unless Walt and Jesse "melted" them away, but why bother since time wss short and they needed to destroy the lab. 

Am I missing something?

[Starchild]

I haven't gone back to watch it, so it could be.

Either way, I stand by my general statement on the skill and talent of the showrunners and writers of BB/BCS.

[peeayebee]

No, you're right. Reading Starchild's post just about made my head explode, so I refreshed my memory. 

[SusieQ]

55 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

No, you're right. Reading Starchild's post just about made my head explode, so I refreshed my memory. 

Thanks. This isn't the first time I heard that the bodies found in BB were Lalo and Howard. Which just didn't make sense to me.

But I do agree that the care in storytelling is outstanding! I have not found anything that comes close to both shows. Please, please, please Peter gould and Vince Gilligan get busy. We need a new show!

[peeayebee]

You're right, we need a new show. I don't know what I'm going do without this one. There just doesn't seem to be anything as good that I haven't already watched.

[gallimaufry]

Wish they'd released this second run at a less hectic time of year for me as dodging spoilers has been a mission but this episode didn't disappoint.  I'm a sucker for real-time as a concept and although this wasn't exactly real-time, it was close: the "you have one hour, Mrs Goodman" thriller conceit was terrific.  (I always thought it was a pity Vince Gilligan didn't go on "24" with a lot of other former "X-Files" writers during that period he didn't have a show on as his sensibility of exploring every moment would really fit a real-time show).

I'm still blown away though that, in the story's narrative, we're barely a month on from them getting married.  I'm not a big fan of time jumps but it feels like we're going to need a lot of them pretty soon.

One thing that impressed me in the "send her" scene: everyone understands the game that Jimmy is playing.  Kim realises what he's doing.  But you can see that Lalo realises what he's doing too and yet, knowing that she visited him in prison to find Jimmy, realises that the substitution doesn't matter as Kim will stick to the plan for Jimmy.  This makes two characters - Lalo and Mike - who actually have a clearer idea of Kim than Jimmy, even though in this case Jimmy is probably just hoping she'll run rather than anything else.

Burying Howard under the superlab does perfectly dovetail the BCS universe into BB.  I certainly will never be able to look at the superlab episodes again.  It feels surreal enough that Howard has a cartel death given how hived off his plot has always been until literal seconds before his exit.

Great finale for Lalo.  The "it was Ignacio!" tie-in worked beautifully.  I wasn't especially surprised Lalo died in 608 as it felt right for the pacing but I'm really glad that it seems to be wrapping up without rushing through a lot of plot as I felt some of the later BB episodes did.  Five episodes to deal with Kim, Gus, the BB era and the Gene story seems fair.

I do think there's a good chance Kim leaves Jimmy after this, although Kim usually zigs where you expect her to zag so who knows.  But I think the killer here would be that she would leave because she wants to make a change and she knows that Jimmy is incapable of that.  This will be both true and also a completely enforcement of Chuck's view that he will always be Slipping Jimmy. 

However, the other way it could go and perhaps the more "Kim" way is that she looks to be in control.  Mike let her down.  She asked who Gus' people were.  Gus' double provides him some protection but a dogged investigation would probably uncover the truth.  I feel like it would be a real shame not to get some proper Gus/Kim interaction but then again it's very late in the day for that.

I kinda hope we get Lyle's reaction to the fall of Gus.  I'm not sure if it would be funny or kind of heartbreaking but it would be interesting to see.

[tennisgurl]

I am so pissed that I forgot the show was back until today! 

I hate that Howard died and that he ended up dumped in a hole next to the psychopath that killed him, but the symmetry of both their bodies next to each other was amazing. Both aspects of Jimmy's life leading to a hole in the ground. 

I love how seriously Gus takes his restaurant, its really not just a front to him, its something he takes real pride in. 

Kim, if this isn't the time to reexamine your life choices, I don't know when is. 

[Spartan Girl]

However things work out, I really don't want Kim to just project all the guilt on Jimmy as if ruining Howard's life wasn't her idea from the beginning.

[wendyg]

It occurs to me that "several states away" is a really wide area - others have mentioned the Gulf coast and California, but could easily include Oregon and Washington (not that I know for sure what the coastline looks like there).

[Cinnabon]

8 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

However things work out, I really don't want Kim to just project all the guilt on Jimmy as if ruining Howard's life wasn't her idea from the beginning.

They both made the choice. Jimmy was responsible for all of the key parts - the body double, getting the lock on Howard’s car duplicated, pictures of the “judge.” Kim could never ever have pulled this off without Jimmy. That said, I can’t see her putting all of the blame on Jimmy. She has never been shown to be that type of person, imo. She clearly loves him tremendously, or she would’ve taken the opportunity he gave her to run. 

Edited July 18, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Eulipian 5k]

On 7/15/2022 at 9:22 AM, peeayebee said:

Yes, she could have talked to the police, but she was too scared of doing anything other than what Lalo wanted.

"Do you want to be a friend of the cartel, or do you want to be a rat?" I think Kim realizes she's "in the game". Her chance out was in Bagman, when she insisted to Jimmy: "I. don't.want.you.to. do. this!"

What's baffling about Jimmy is that he has always been able to "manufacture" clients thru his own "marketing" , yet, his most important clients extorted their way into his service. Tuco, Nacho, Lalo, Walt and Jessie, all intimidated Jimmy into being their lawyer.

(Gus knows that the guy with his head in the trash basket at P.H. is not up to Pollos standards.)

[SimplexFish]

2 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

What's baffling about Jimmy is that he has always been able to "manufacture" clients thru his own "marketing" , yet, his most important clients extorted their way into his service. Tuco, Nacho, Lalo, Walt and Jessie, all intimidated Jimmy into being their lawyer.

Was Jimmy Tuco's attorney?