S03.E08: The Instant White-Hot Wild

[MAK]

8 minutes ago, Smad said:

Or when MM said he killed his family and he just said 'which one?' all cocky.

What exactly does he mean when he says this? Does this have racist overtones? If it does, I don't understand. It seems to be a weird response. Does SB think which family as in an actual family and the the other family as in all Black people? 

It also could have something to do with Soldier Boy policing MM's neighborhood, which would have had mostly POC.

[gonzosgirrl]

Reminded on Twitter of one of the best moments/lines of the episode, when Butcher reveals to Soldier Boy that Ryan's mother was [his] wife. The incredulity on SB's face: "Homelander fucked your wife?"

1 minute ago, MAK said:

What exactly does he mean when he says this? Does this have racist overtones? If it does, I don't understand. It seems to be a weird response. Does SB think which family as in an actual family and the the other family as in all Black people? 

It also could have something to do with Soldier Boy policing MM's neighborhood, which would have had mostly POC.

I thought either 'which member of your family' or which family in the sense that his team is also his family. Or it could have been 'which one', meaning which instance of my disregard for collateral damage killed your family.

[Smad]

24 minutes ago, MAK said:

What exactly does he mean when he says this? Does this have racist overtones? If it does, I don't understand. It seems to be a weird response. Does SB think which family as in an actual family and the the other family as in all Black people? 

I just assumed he meant generally. I mean every person he killed presumably had a family. And whether he killed someone in a fight or he left collateral damage behind, there is usually more than one person attached. Maybe he also even killed entire families, directly or indirectly. I never saw it as racial so much as 'there is a long bloody list buddy, which one are you referring to?'.

[Affogato]

It has been established that blue hawk hunted in black neighborhoods and I’d guess soldierboy did too. He wouldn’t be throwing around cars 🚗 in rich neighborhoods with lawyers. That would cost Vought. 
 

I know everyone wants JA’s character to be better than the others but I would not place money on that being the case. 
 

i don’t think it was made explicit. 

[Asha124]

Maybe I'm biased because I love JA but I am team SB. I get that Butcher promised to Becca that he would protect her son but stopping HL should take precedence.

Ryan doesn't make any sense to me and I hate the trope of OP kid with obivously evil parent(s) who try to manipulate said kid...

Kimiko, maybe instead of stabbing the guards to the beat of the song try protecting your "family" from getting shot?

I was waiting for A-Train to do something after the scene with HL/Deep/Ashley only for him to not appear at all after that... weird...

I loved SB confronting HL, especially this part:

HL: "Weak? I'm you."

SB: "I know. You are a f**king disappointment.

SB is dissing not only HL but also himself - in his eyes they are both failures.

Overall while I love the show I was disappointed by the finale. Nothing was achieved and we lost Maeve, Ryan and SB - three of the strongest supes that could go against HL.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Asha124

[Ohiopirate02]

33 minutes ago, Smad said:

I don't remember him showing remorse for killing anyone. He didn't show remorse for killing Latinos either. Or when MM said he killed his family and he just said 'which one?' all cocky. There were enough scenes to show he didn't care about collateral damage, no matter the skin color of the people.

Except the problem is, they then have him being haunted (even if just initially) when he gets triggered and accidentally blows up that building. So we have a guy who is a shit to his own team (if Noir's flashbacks and the words of the rest of Payback can be believed) and who in the field is a hothead causing collateral. But he doesn't seem to be down for killing just because outside of the battlefield (or what he perceives as such) and revenge on his own team. The writing seems confused here which isn't helped by the lack of exploration of his actual background and character.

I find it difficult to care for SB's collateral damage when we see Maeve just casually throws that bottle of novichok out the window.  I saw no evidence over this season that showed SB to be any worse than Noir/Maeve/The Deep/A-train/Newman let alone Homelander.  I can somewhat see what the writers were trying to do, but it never worked.  I feel like they either chose to ignore Homelander's sins or completely forgot them when trying to craft this asshole to out-asshole Homelander.  Has any other character just gone around casually killing people in the way Homelander has?  I'm thinking about the plane in season one or his "birthday save" where he threw that suicidal woman off of a building instead of saving her.  

42 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

If Black Noir's cartoon vision flashback is to be believed, that "moving on up" comment seems pointedly racist, and it casts Soldier Boy's sabotaging of his movie career in the light of reminding the "uppity" black teammate of his proper subservient role when he dared to want success for himself. But he didn't really demonstrate any racist views in his live-action scenes. I think MM is just assuming the death of his relatives was racially motivated when it's just as likely events would have played out the same way if a white family had lived in that house.

I really can't muster up that much sympathy for Noir when the role in question was Axel Foley.  Soldier Boy is/was/always will be correct in "sabotaging" Noir in this instance. It's like the Kent State reference last episode.  The writers did not think through their historical references in their attempts to make SB as bad as HL.  

[Smad]

12 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I know everyone wants JA’s character to be better than the others but I would not place money on that being the case. 

I don't care about the actor in this regard. But the failure of the writers. SB seemed to be no worse than every other supe we have seen with the exception of Starlight and the younger supes (like Sonic and the other ones auditioning this Season). But the supes who climbed the ladder are all awful. If the goal was the Finale, where everyone decides to team up against SB instead of HL, then SB should have been established as worse than HL. And that's I think the problem most here (and elsewhere) have, the writing doesn't support this in any way.

If they tried to make him overtly racist, they also failed. SB held Cosby (who is black) in high esteem. But he also bashed Noir in particular, supposedly because he was black. I'm confused here. Is he racist or not?

13 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Has any other character just gone around casually killing people in the way Homelander has? 

Stormfront/Liberty. But at least she is dead.

15 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I really can't muster up that much sympathy for Noir when the role in question was Axel Foley.

And wasn't there a reference at the beginning of the Season to something Noir did that he should be brought up on war crimes for?

[MrWhyt]

8 hours ago, Mary42 said:

Plus, I don't understand why Butcher was trying to protect Ryan from being depowered. 

cause SB's blast doesn't just depower supes, it can kill them. Butcher wasn't going to risk losing Ryan.

7 hours ago, Nick24 said:

You know, in this case they might do the opposite of what we want them to.😄

good, who'd want to watch a show written by the fans?

1 hour ago, roamyn said:

 But never is it mentioned to the public that he’d tortured and kept trapped in Russia.

Vought, that is to say Homelander, does not give a fuck about rehabbing SB's reputation, not after that rejection.

[Castiels Cat]

22 minutes ago, Affogato said:

It has been established that blue hawk hunted in black neighborhoods and I’d guess soldierboy did too. He wouldn’t be throwing around cars 🚗 in rich neighborhoods with lawyers. That would cost Vought. 
 

I know everyone wants JA’s character to be better than the others but I would not place money on that being the case. 
 

i don’t think it was made explicit. 

We saw fighting skills, mad knife skills, shooting and furious shield rage. We never saw car throwing. Why throw a car. This needed explanation especially because it relates to MM's origin story and quest.

Big fail.

I do see the scene with Mallory and SB as a cliffhanger. Ryan was a new beginning for her having lost her grandchildren to supes. She is the new Butcher for s 4. I do not see why she wouldn't shoot up some V once she's exhausted all other avenues and release Him. He may say... give me a hit. I need laser eyes of my own.

It's a good tactical decision. Weapon up. He was betrayed by his team.

[Affogato]

5 minutes ago, Smad said:

I don't care about the actor in this regard. But the failure of the writers. SB seemed to be no worse than every other supe we have seen with the exception of Starlight and the younger supes (like Sonic and the other ones auditioning this Season). But the supes who climbed the ladder are all awful. If the goal was the Finale, where everyone decides to team up against SB instead of HL, then SB should have been established as worse than HL. And that's I think the problem most here (and elsewhere) have, the writing doesn't support this in any way.

If they tried to make him overtly racist, they also failed. SB held Cosby (who is black) in high esteem. But he also bashed Noir in particular, supposedly because he was black. I'm confused here. Is he racist or not?

Stormfront/Liberty. But at least she is dead.

And wasn't there a reference at the beginning of the Season to something Noir did that he should be brought up on war crimes for?

Yes everyone is evil. Also MM had a murder wall of newspaper clippings. He would know. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by Affogato

[quirkygal]

14 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Kripke should've let him disappear, but I'm not surprised at all by the ending. Even the crowd cheering on Homelander at the end. Kripke's on-the-nose version of "I could shoot someone on Main Street and they'd still love me." 

Quick question: was the guy who starts cheering HL after HL removes the top of bottle throwing guy's head and brain Janine's stepfather/MM's punching bag?

[Ohiopirate02]

Just now, quirkygal said:

Quick question: was the guy who starts cheering HL after HL removes the top of bottle throwing guy's head and brain Janine's stepfather/MM's punching bag?

Yes it was Todd.

[Castiels Cat]

6 hours ago, Badlands said:

So Homelander really can stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot someone and not lose any support.

Yes. And they want you to make that connection.

[DeeDee79]

Yikes. They really jammed alot into this season and so much could have been left out including Deep's random stupidity and A-Train's everything. Personally, I felt that the MVP's of the ep were Soldier Boy and Queen Maeve for being the only ones to stick to the agreed upon agenda with an honorable mention to Hughie.

I knew that something ridiculous would have to happen in order for Butcher to take his eye off of the prize and Ryan was it. He's frequently a hypocrite but this was just a new level of stupid for him. He kept getting hints from SB and Hughie flat out told him that he didn't want to kill Homelander now that he knew that he was the only family that he had left. Butcher kept pushing and pushing until he agrees...only to turn on him when he's actually going to do it??!! What the actual fuck, Butcher. All of the boys deserve whatever is coming to them. And is Butcher dying from the V? What was the scene with the doctor telling him he had 12-18 months left? 

Have to add that Jensen killed it this season. I knew that he would because I'm a huge fan, but he exceeded my expectations. It sucks that they put him back in the chamber; I agree with those who said that they would have rather seen him escape. I am glad that they didn't kill him off, though. 

[PurpleTentacle]

If I were butcher I'd get myself some V-classic, fast. I mean what's the worst that could happen? Can't get any deader.

Also is Hughie just fine? He took one less than the lethal dose. He had brain leakage and the notes said that tumors showed up way before the leathal dose. Hope all those tumors are benign... It's also not how bodies work in general. If the body has fully recovered from the drug, it should be like taking the first dose again. See heroin addicts who overdose after they've been clean for a while. So either Hughie has massive permanent damage or he could take V-24 again in a few days to weeks. But then again, magic drug, so what do I know?

I guess they are setting up Veronica as a major threat for next season? But meh, what is so bad about her? So she exploded a few heads and got a guy drowned. By the standards of this show that's nothing. Her policies seem rather benevolent so far. I mean sure, in the real world she should be in prison, but why do "our heroes" have that "oh shit"- look on their faces when she is revealed as running for VP? Boys, this is the very, very, very least of your problems right now!

I was disappointed we didn't get to see Edgar in this season again, after he was ousted from Vought. I hope he has some big plan for next season to take back control.

6 hours ago, Smad said:

The fact that they thought SB was a bigger problem than HL is just so balls to the wall dumb...I just can't. HL is an 'apocalyptic level' threat to the entire planet and they all know this. He literally made that clear to both Butcher and SL during the Season. His son, if left to be raised by HL, will be on that same level. Did they all acquire collective brain damage or something?

I mean I think it was more about protecting Ryan and them not caring that much about the rest of the world in that moment. Others have pointed out that maybe it would have just depowered Ryan, but they don't necessarily know that and even we don't know that for sure.

That being said, it was a big miscalculation. It seemed like they could have tried more to get Ryan out of there and let HL and SB duke it out. Taking out homelander should be the biggest priority. He can do more damage to more people in a smaller amount of time and most importantly, they know SB's weakness. Worse comes to worst, you drop a canister of Novichok from a Helicopter and he is out, even if it takes a few people with him, at least it's not the Apocalypse Homelander could unleash.

6 hours ago, Smad said:

Butcher is the biggest hypocrite

I mean that much has been clear since season 1.

4 hours ago, Bergamot said:

And this was preceded by such a lovely scene with Frenchie and Kimiko, where she encourages him to break free from the chains of his past. It is thanks to Kimiko that Frenchie realizes that he can keep his cake hole open if he wants to!

I notcied way too late that that scene didn't have subtitles since I was watching in a popout window and apperently they don't display there. When I went back I was surprised to find that I got 90% of that scene from context clues (which might have also been why it took me so long to notice).

It was a really great scene either way.

4 hours ago, Smad said:

Speaking of Ryan, his character change makes little sense. Sure he flip-flopped last Season but he was uneasy about HL's 'we are gods' crap, became increasingly uneasy especially with Stormfront (the woman HL dated and whom was killing his mother) and who chose Butcher when HL came on the scene covered head to toe in blood. Earlier this Season he was talking about not even wanting to get a puppy for fear of hurting it. This boy now has no problem with daddy killing people just because? What?

I hope he is just playing along to appease Homelander. That's what I got at first from his plea that he wanted to go, in the tower, that he wanted to protect the boys in that moment. On the other hand Ryan has been shown before to be a bit of a dumbass (I guess he is supposed to be younger than the actor) and the actor isn't the greatest so you can't know what's going on with him from his facial expressions. So no telling if he actually liked his dad lasering the guy's face off or not. Could go either way.

4 hours ago, Smad said:

I think the most people can agree on, is that SB was a shitty human being. Basically he was a cocky SOB with the mindset from when he was born/raised (including the racism, sexism, toxic masculinity etc.).

Even for that time he was shitstain.

4 hours ago, Smad said:

But beyond that, we get second hand backstory on him. How much can we trust Noir's memories of him?

Since it fit with everything else we know, like what Gunpowder told Butcher, the reports Gunpowder filed with Vought and Grace's flashback, I'd say we can trust it 99%. 1% being cartoon animals.

4 hours ago, Nick24 said:

I don't think you've missed anything. I was very confused with that too. Especially considering SB talking about fighting Nazis in 3.06.

Which he never did. He was there for photo-ops after the war had been over for weeks.

It's true I don't think we've seen him be racist and they really should have shown that. But him killing MM's family while using excessive violence in black neighbourhoods, seems earily simlar to Blue Hawk, who was very much a racist pos. So maybe the writers thought they had made that paralel sufficiently clear.

3 hours ago, Smad said:

Except the problem is, they then have him being haunted (even if just initially) when he gets triggered and accidentally blows up that building.

He's not haunted, he has PTSD from the torture he recieved form the russians. That's a fear-reaction and has nothing to do with remorse.

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I find it difficult to care for SB's collateral damage when we see Maeve just casually throws that bottle of novichok out the window.

I mean it's not in gas form and unlikely to hit somebody directly. Most likely it will be washed away by the next rain. As far as potential colateral damage goes, that is about as tame as it gets on this show.

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I saw no evidence over this season that showed SB to be any worse than Noir/Maeve/The Deep/A-train/Newman let alone Homelander.

I saw plenty of evidence that he was worse than most. Probably not worse than Homelander, but that is a bar so low it is set in hell.

Edited July 8, 2022 by PurpleTentacle

[Aithne]

4 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I have to say that Frenchie was pretty adorable when he got all giddy at the opportunity to exercise his new-found freedom of speech! “No! My cake hole will remain OPEN!” and “We all deserve paid vacation days, and a dental plan!” Hahaha! Go, Frenchie! 😄

And this was preceded by such a lovely scene with Frenchie and Kimiko, where she encourages him to break free from the chains of his past. It is thanks to Kimiko that Frenchie realizes that he can keep his cake hole open if he wants to!

I did not like Kimiko’s little dance video though, where she enjoys her music as she stabs and bludgeons and pulverizes the guards to death. I thought her joyous dancing as she prepared to kill them was pretty creepy, actually. What was this supposed to be showing us about her? I preferred the Kimiko who killed people when she had to, because it was her job – but never seemed to have fun with it, and often was conflicted and tormented about it. I would welcome hearing any different takes on this, but I just did not like it.

This is one reason why I was not happy when Kimiko decided to get her powers back, although I understand why she did it. I feel like the writers for the show just wanted her to be a Supe again not because it was a necessary part of her story, but because they think it looks so cool to have a tiny, pretty woman be capable of literally tearing her enemies to pieces.
 

Frenchie remains the best. Start that union, you beautiful socialist. 

It won't surprise you that I totally agree about Kimiko. She was written SO WEIRDLY in this episode, from getting violent with Frenchie about the coke (where did that even come from?) to being so elated about getting to kill these guards that she kept putting in her earbuds and bouncing.while they were already shooting at them. If someone had gotten off a headshot early, Frenchie and their chances to get the neurotoxin synthesized could've been toast, because she was prepping to dance. 

So, so OOC for the Kimiko I've seen this season that I'm kind of at a loss for what to say about it. Literally the only things that made sense for her this ep were the mon couer speech and her acceptance of Annie onto the team. Very thrown off by what they did with her this ep. 

[BabySpinach]

Ryan is not a particularly essential or beloved character (overpowered kids around whom more interesting characters revolve face an uphill battle in terms of likability anyways), yet he was the sole reason that SB was stopped from ending the most despicable and deranged character on the show. He just came off as an annoying plot device who fucked things up at the crucial moment. Most in the audience probably weren't attached to him enough to agree that his life was too high a price to pay for HL's death (that is if he wouldn't have just ended up surviving and getting depowered like Maeve did).

The life of every poor bastard who gets liquified or crushed by Homelander and/or Ryan from now on is on the Boys' head. Not sure that'll even be brought up next season, though.

Edited July 8, 2022 by BabySpinach

[DeeDee79]

4 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Ryan is not a particularly essential or beloved character (overpowered kids around whom more interesting characters revolve face an uphill battle in terms of likability anyways), yet he was the sole reason that SB was stopped from ending the most despicable and deranged character on the show. He just came off as an annoying plot device who fucked things up at the crucial moment. I couldn't imagine anyone genuinely thinking that Ryan's life would've been too high a price to pay for HL's death (that is if he wouldn't have just ended up surviving and getting depowered like Maeve did). 

The life of every poor bastard who gets liquified or crushed by Homelander and/or Ryan from now on is on the Boys' head. Not sure that'll even be brought up next season, though.

I hope that at least one person mentions this next season. They've wanted to write Butcher off numerous times during his vengeance quest against Homelander (admittedly because he's an asshole) but as soon as MM reveals that he was wronged by a Supe they're all in. And the Supe that they decided to go after isn't into world domination like the other guy. Unbelievable. 

[Nick24]

8 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Ryan is not a particularly essential or beloved character (overpowered kids around whom more interesting characters revolve face an uphill battle in terms of likability anyways), yet he was the sole reason that SB was stopped from ending the most despicable and deranged character on the show. He just came off as an annoying plot device who fucked things up at the crucial moment. Most in the audience probably weren't attached to him enough to agree that his life was too high a price to pay for HL's death (that is if he wouldn't have just ended up surviving and getting depowered like Maeve did).

All of it reminded me of some other show created by Eric Kripke. Not good memories I have to admit.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Nick24

[gonzosgirrl]

28 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

He's not haunted, he has PTSD from the torture he recieved form the russians. That's a fear-reaction and has nothing to do with remorse.

He did show remorse that innocent people were killed in his first music-triggered explosion. I think there were hints that he could have finally started to grow after 90+ years and maybe not be such a douchebag. He could have just killed MM at Herogasm, and Homelander most certainly would have. I am in no way saying he wasn't a dick, but what they showed us doesn't completely add up to what they told us, IMO. I still say Noir is not a reliable narrator, since he didn't seem to 'remember' any douchebaggery on his own part, nor the fact he's been a killer for Vought for the last 40+ years.

[Smad]

55 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I mean I think it was more about protecting Ryan and them not caring that much about the rest of the world in that moment. Others have pointed out that maybe it would have just depowered Ryan, but they don't necessarily know that and even we don't know that for sure.

That's no excuse. So many ways they could have gotten Ryan out since there were plenty people to grab him and go. Including Hughie taking V and porting.

55 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Even for that time he was shitstain

All Payback members were shit stains. All supes we have seen are shit stains. They only vary in degrees and some are less of a shit than others. But other than SL, they are scum. Or at least those who get any fame are one degree of shit or another.

52 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

The life of every poor bastard who gets liquified or crushed by Homelander and/or Ryan from now on is on the Boys' head. Not sure that'll even be brought up next season, though.

Reminds me of the aftermath of Sam's decisions in S4 of Supernatural. The global death toll by the time the end of S5 comes around...phew. Or the refusal to close the gates of hell (though that wasn't on Kripke's watch).

[DeeDee79]

20 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think there were hints that he could have finally started to grow after 90+ years and maybe not be such a douchebag.

It seemed to me that during his scenes with Butcher he was trying to open up but Butcher's narrow focus on endlessly reminding him that HL wasn't his family and that he had to stick to the plan made him close off. That was a good scene but it only scratched the surface to what made SB tick. Also, if Butcher had told SB his reasons for wanting HL dead beyond him wanting some payback he may not have attacked HL while Ryan was present. He may not have cared but there's a chance that he would have.

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, Aithne said:

Frenchie remains the best. Start that union, you beautiful socialist.

Respect for Frenchie! A DENTAL PLAN FOR FRENCHIE!! 😊

1 hour ago, Aithne said:

It won't surprise you that I totally agree about Kimiko. She was written SO WEIRDLY in this episode, from getting violent with Frenchie about the coke (where did that even come from?) to being so elated about getting to kill these guards that she kept putting in her earbuds and bouncing.while they were already shooting at them. If someone had gotten off a headshot early, Frenchie and their chances to get the neurotoxin synthesized could've been toast, because she was prepping to dance. 

So, so OOC for the Kimiko I've seen this season that I'm kind of at a loss for what to say about it. Literally the only things that made sense for her this ep were the mon couer speech and her acceptance of Annie onto the team. Very thrown off by what they did with her this ep. 

I'm glad that I wasn't the only one who thought she was written very out-of-character. And I hadn't even taken note of the fact that she smacked Frenchie the way she did, but I agree, very OOC. I actually looked to see who wrote the episode, as if that would explain it somehow, but I don't know anything about the writers for this show. All I know is that this part of it was badly written.

I saw a review of the episode which said that in one interview the actress had mentioned the "mon couer" speech as one of her favorite scenes, because Kimiko was able to help Frenchie. So I am going to stick with that as my Kimiko character note for this episode and ignore the other stuff.

[AntFTW]

I feel like SB as a character was not utilized to his fullest extent.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Respect for Frenchie! A DENTAL PLAN FOR FRENCHIE!! 😊

I'm glad that I wasn't the only one who thought she was written very out-of-character. And I hadn't even taken note of the fact that she smacked Frenchie the way she did, but I agree, very OOC. I actually looked to see who wrote the episode, as if that would explain it somehow, but I don't know anything about the writers for this show. All I know is that this part of it was badly written.

I saw a review of the episode which said that in one interview the actress had mentioned the "mon couer" speech as one of her favorite scenes, because Kimiko was able to help Frenchie. So I am going to stick with that as my Kimiko character note for this episode and ignore the other stuff.

Re Kimiko,

I wonder if she's different because she lost her powers and shot up with V again. Maybe they've changed the formula so it affected her differently than from when she got it earlier.

[PurpleTentacle]

44 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He did show remorse that innocent people were killed in his first music-triggered explosion.

He really didn't. He was just rattled that he wasn't in control. I know you like Jensen Ackles (and so do I) but you got to seperate the actor from the character. Soldier Boy has no redeeming qualities. He's shown that time and again.

49 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I still say Noir is not a reliable narrator, since he didn't seem to 'remember' any douchebaggery on his own part, nor the fact he's been a killer for Vought for the last 40+ years.

It's clear that Noir's flashback is reliable, as the other evidence we have lines up perfectly. It was just a creative way of the writers giving us yet another flashback, without getting too repetitive.

51 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

since he didn't seem to 'remember' any douchebaggery on his own part, nor the fact he's been a killer for Vought for the last 40+ years.

What makes you think he doesn't remember that?

24 minutes ago, Smad said:

That's no excuse. So many ways they could have gotten Ryan out since there were plenty people to grab him and go. Including Hughie taking V and porting.

As I also said in my post. Yet we must make some allowances for characters not making the best decisions in the heat of the moment. Especially these chucklefucks. So bad decisions all around, but consistent character- writing.

30 minutes ago, Smad said:

All Payback members were shit stains. All supes we have seen are shit stains. They only vary in degrees and some are less of a shit than others. But other than SL, they are scum. Or at least those who get any fame are one degree of shit or another.

As I also alluded to in my post. From what I've seen he's worse than most. Not quite homelander-deranged, but seemingly worse than the rest of the seven or payback.

57 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He could have just killed MM at Herogasm, and Homelander most certainly would have.

Homelander has let people live quite a few times, because he thought they weren't worth it or for other convoluted reasons, when the plot demanded it. See his private talk with Butcher in the beginning of the season. I took SB letting MM live in the same vein. He seemed bemused that somebody would try to use Halothan on him. Not threatened in any way. So why should he respond with violence? That wasn't an act of benevolence, it was an act of indifference.

1 hour ago, Aithne said:

It won't surprise you that I totally agree about Kimiko. She was written SO WEIRDLY in this episode, from getting violent with Frenchie about the coke (where did that even come from?) to being so elated about getting to kill these guards that she kept putting in her earbuds and bouncing.while they were already shooting at them. If someone had gotten off a headshot early, Frenchie and their chances to get the neurotoxin synthesized could've been toast, because she was prepping to dance. 

So, so OOC for the Kimiko I've seen this season that I'm kind of at a loss for what to say about it. Literally the only things that made sense for her this ep were the mon couer speech and her acceptance of Annie onto the team. Very thrown off by what they did with her this ep. 

I think it was supposed to show that she accepts her nature now, that she is a killer. With or without the V. That she now uses that protect her family, without remorse. But the writers went way over the top with it. Giving you whiplash from her previous struggle with not wanting to be a killer. So not great writing here. That should have ramped up slower and not started with a killing spree set to music.

[Bergamot]

31 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Also, if Butcher had told SB his reasons for wanting HL dead beyond him wanting some payback he may not have attacked HL while Ryan was present. He may not have cared but there's a chance that he would have.

When Homelander brings out Ryan and introduces him to Soldier Boy, you can see SB give Butcher an angry, sideways glance which clearly says, "Thanks a lot for telling me about this, asshole!" (It's right after Ryan says "Hi Grandpa".) Butcher of course refuses to meet Soldier Boy's gaze. But yeah, for once Butcher should have been open about the situation instead of relying on his constant secretiveness, concealment, and deception, which I know is a well-established character trait of his but which is getting very tiresome. As you say, maybe it would not have changed anything but there was a chance it would have.

[DeeDee79]

14 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

From what I've seen he's worse than most. Not quite homelander-deranged, but seemingly worse than the rest of the seven or payback.

Homelander aside nothing that we've seen of Soldier Boy shows him to be worse than Noir, Translucent, Deep or A-Train and all that we know about Payback is that they hated him. That doesn't mean that they weren't as bad as he was, they just weren't as powerful as him which made them unable to fight back. All we got was lip service from other characters on how godawful he was while we've actually seen the other Supes be gleefully shitty and not give a fuck about it. IMO of course.

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Re Kimiko,

I wonder if she's different because she lost her powers and shot up with V again. Maybe they've changed the formula so it affected her differently than from when she got it earlier.

I guess it is possible that it is something like that. I don't know, though, it seems as if the writers thought her "Maniac" dance would just be a cute scene for Kimiko, comparable maybe to her imaginary "I Got Rhythm" dance routine with Frenchie. But this was not imaginary, and it came across as bizarre and completely implausible, to say the least.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Bergamot

[Glade]

If Maeve, A-Train and Soldeir Boy were all definitely 100% dead and most or all of The Boys took perma-V, that would have left the show in a really exciting place for next season.  But having SB carted away in a gas pod to be brought out if they ever need him again (if they really can't kill him, why not send him on a deep space mission to Titan?  He can be the first 'human' to live out there...) and Maeve going into hiding knowing she can get her powers back any time by taking V, and that even BN might have been able to heal...is unsatisfying.  SB and Homelander are both toxic abusive fascists, and it makes sense that SB couldn't love his son or grandson since he hates himself so much...and surely Ryan won't stick with HL long-term either.  The timeline for Butcher's supposed death is also tiresome.  I guess the show has to be dragged out for at least 7 seasons, but the reset button sucks.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Glade

[Smad]

59 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

But this was not imaginary, and it came across as bizarre and completely implausible, to say the least.

Not to mention it undercuts the whole 'Kimiko takes V for good reasons' and 'Huhgie takes V for the wrong reasons' that Kripke himself has remarked on.

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

Homelander aside nothing that we've seen of Soldier Boy shows him to be worse than Noir, Translucent, Deep or A-Train and all that we know about Payback is that they hated him. That doesn't mean that they weren't as bad as he was, they just weren't as powerful as him which made them unable to fight back. All we got was lip service from other characters on how godawful he was while we've actually seen the other Supes be gleefully shitty and not give a fuck about it. IMO of course.

Did some people forget the flashback we saw with Payback? Hilariously we saw everyone except SB (and Noir I think) killing Mallory's people. The only people we saw SB fighting were those that actually attacked him. Even in the short cartoon Noir flashback, SB only killed enemy soldiers. If we trust the Noir flashbacks, then SB was a great A a-hole to his team. But lets not act as if the rest of them were some innocent lemmings. If they were that vain, crumbling under pressure, dumb and untrained...the must have left a lot of collateral in their wake.

The current 7 are nothing to write home about. Deep is to dumb to actually go homicidal but he is a multiple rapist and if left unchecked would get the entire ocean sea life killed. A-Train will get rid or help get rid of anyone who stands in his way of being on top. Noir apparently should be brought up on war crimes. Translucent stalks women and apparently underaged girls, whether at home or at the OBGYN. We never see Maeve do anything but one could argue that her letting it all of this happen and just standing by is enabling all this evil.

1 hour ago, Glade said:

He can be the first 'human' to live out there...) and Maeve going into hiding knowing she can get her powers back any time by taking V, and that even BN might have been able to heal...is unsatisfying.

Disagree on Maeve. She had the most thankless role on this show. When she wasn't a chew toy for Homelander, she was delivery girl for Butcher and Starlight's guardian angel. And she never got anything out of that for herself. They literally had nothing for her to do except save Annie's ass every freaking Season. End of S1 she saved SL, end of S2 she saved SL and came to help the team against Stormfront/HL. And in this Season Finale it happened again. SL is useless, the boys screwed everything up so SL gives Maeve puppy dog eyes and Maeve has to sacrifice herself. Funniest thing in this Finale, Maeve saying SL doesn't need her anymore because she leveled up in power. When even with a power up SL was more useless than Maeve. So I'm glad she got out and hopefully stays out.

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, Smad said:

Disagree on Maeve. She had the most thankless role on this show. When she wasn't a chew toy for Homelander, she was delivery girl for Butcher and Starlight's guardian angel. And she never got anything out of that for herself. They literally had nothing for her to do except save Annie's ass every freaking Season. End of S1 she saved SL, end of S2 she saved SL and came to help the team against Stormfront/HL. And in this Season Finale it happened again. SL is useless, the boys screwed everything up so SL gives Maeve puppy dog eyes and Maeve has to sacrifice herself. Funniest thing in this Finale, Maeve saying SL doesn't need her anymore because she leveled up in power. When even with a power up SL was more useless than Maeve. So I'm glad she got out and hopefully stays out.

I agree that they should have given her more to do than just react to everything that HL did to her. And every time Maeve makes a move or takes a stance that SL doesn't agree with it's always "oh, I thought you were a hero" or "wow, you're just a phony" blah, blah, blah. She's done it in every season and Maeve always comes back later with "you're right" and it's so aggravating. I'm glad that Maeve got her pound of flesh from HL before she disappeared. He healed from the fight but she did a fair amount of damage.

[AntFTW]

I rewatched the episode and each time I watched SB swing Butcher up and smashed him through the table, I couldn't help but chuckle and think of wrestling.

if anyone used to watch WWE/WWF wrestling back in the day when Jim Ross was a commentator and he'd scream "MY GAWD! THROUGH THE TABLES! THROUGH THE GAWD-DAMN TABLES!" That just cracked me up inside.

Edited July 9, 2022 by AntFTW

[Smad]

2 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I agree that they should have given her more to do than just react to everything that HL did to her. And every time Maeve makes a move or takes a stance that SL doesn't agree with it's always "oh, I thought you were a hero" or "wow, you're just a phony" blah, blah, blah. She's done it in every season and Maeve always comes back later with "you're right" and it's so aggravating. I'm glad that Maeve got her pound of flesh from HL before she disappeared. He healed from the fight but she did a fair amount of damage.

In S1 Annie lashed out once against Maeve when she was drunk. But that was after Maeve apologized to her so that was weird. At the end of S2 I was annoyed when Maeve saved her yet again and SL came begging for more. Then she went to Maeve again this Season when she was trying to build her hero team to fight HL. But SL never did anything for Maeve in return. Always taking, never giving. In this Season SL could have paid her back by actually trying to look for her once HL captured Maeve. But nah, all she did was ask Ashley once and if Maeve wasn't such a badass, SL's constant social media postings about Maeve would have gotten her moved to an even more obscure and harder to find location. She was literally right there the whole time in the tower. And then said Maeve wasn't a hero for prioritizing HL over SB. Screw SL, have fun getting out of jams now that your guardian angel is gone.

I actually think it's a nice payback (not if any innocent get killed though) that Maeve threw that bottle out there which definitely will have consequences for SL.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Smad

[Cthulhudrew]

I enjoyed the episode, but there was some awkward dialogue in this one, mainly in a couple of Huey's scenes. His "we save everyone whether they deserve it or not. Especially if they don't" was a terrible line that should have gotten cut; it was stupid and not as strong as someone apparently thought it was in the writer's room. I also thought his apology with Annie in the car came from out of nowhere, was unearned, and she forgave him too easily.

Still waiting for A-Train to get his comeuppance, but I think the writers get some kind of masochistic kick out of the abuse they heap on him and the Deep too much to get rid of either of them.

[MAK]

8 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I saw plenty of evidence that he was worse than most. Probably not worse than Homelander, but that is a bar so low it is set in hell.

He was worse than most because he was team leader, like Homelander. If any of the others had their own teams, they would be the same, with maybe some exceptions. 

But, it did seem that SB was slightly less amoral than most of the current supes. At least from what was shown and said by him, he would minimize collateral damage whenever possible, but whatever damage he causes, he'll just take it in stride. The other supes, even some of the lesser ones, don't seem to even think about what their actions' fallout is.

Noir had plenty of civilian casualties, before and after being part of Payback. Did he feel bad for himself or for the lives lost/damaged? A-Train killing Robin, Popclaw killing her landlord. Crimson Countess killing Mallory's men in Nicaragua, or the employees in Voughtland. Homelander casually stepped on Termite. He could hear Mallory using her touchscreen but couldn't hear Termite calling for help? 

[WritinMan]

I loved it. The fight at the end was fantastic.

Who would have thought that The Boys would become one of the best shows on TV? Can't wait for season 4.

[Mary42]

7 minutes ago, Mary42 said:

13 hours ago, roamyn said:

And even worse BS, everything is being blamed on SB.  

ETA:  if ever he gets out, The Boys better watch it, because he’ll be aft them.  Then I can see him teaming up w/HL & Ryan

I don't know what was wrong with my editor but if SB gets out, I'll be all for him going after the Boys for their duplicity, esp. Butcher. I know HL won't trust him again but I'd be okay with SB picking them off one by one secretly at the end. 

Unfortunately, Kripke is big on listen to what I'm telling you more than what I show you on the screen. He always has been. 

IMHO, I thought SB was definitely the lesser of the evils but we weren't supposed to think abt it, just listen to what the other characters were telling us, esp MM and SL who I don't enjoy on this show. Too much morality shoved down my throat in a world that doesn't have any.

SB will remain on ice until EK wants that audience boost again or the series finale because he's not ready for HL to go away yet. Mallory doesn't trust SB enough to let him go until nuclear is the only option and maybe not even then, depending on how long the series goes on.

Whatever, it was fun being introduced to the character. He was a dick and a product of his time that left him behind. Just wish I'd seen more of him.

Kimiko and Frenchie are cute. They need their own show. Their whole sequence in the lab was idiotic and unbelievable. They/Their romance doesn't really belong here, IMO. Just slowing things down.

[Mary42]

Just now, Mary42 said:

I don't know what was wrong with my editor but if SB gets out, I'll be all for him going after the Boys for their duplicity, esp. Butcher. I know HL won't trust him again but I'd be okay with SB picking them off one by one secretly at the end. 

Unfortunately, Kripke is big on listen to what I'm telling you more than what I show you on the screen. He always has been. 

IMHO, I thought SB was definitely the lesser of the evils but we weren't supposed to think abt it, just listen to what the other characters were telling us, esp MM and SL who I don't enjoy on this show. Too much morality shoved down my throat in a world that doesn't have any.

SB will remain on ice until EK wants that audience boost again or the series finale because he's not ready for HL to go away yet. Mallory doesn't trust SB enough to let him go until nuclear is the only option and maybe not even then, depending on how long the series goes on.

Whatever, it was fun being introduced to the character. He was a dick and a product of his time that left him behind. Just wish I'd seen more of him.

Kimiko and Frenchie are cute. They need their own show. Their whole sequence in the lab was idiotic and unbelievable. They/Their romance doesn't really belong here, IMO. Just slowing things down.

I don't see much left but more of the same in season 4. Nothing changed this whole season except now they need to save Dean, oops, Butcher from dying. LOL!

[MAK]

5 hours ago, Mary42 said:

Whatever, it was fun being introduced to the character. He was a dick and a product of his time that left him behind. Just wish I'd seen more of him.

Totally agree with sentiment. Soldier Boy was a dick/asshole but not insane like Homelander. Even with his PTSD, he could be counted on to act or react in a certain way.

Homelander is definitely more of a threat because he is unpredictable. Black Noir's death kind of proves that, and his threat to his "team," that he does not need them, they are absolutely replaceable. They will always be walking on egg shells, not knowing what exactly will set him off.

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, Mary42 said:

I don't know what was wrong with my editor but if SB gets out, I'll be all for him going after the Boys for their duplicity, esp. Butcher. I know HL won't trust him again but I'd be okay with SB picking them off one by one secretly at the end. 

Unfortunately, Kripke is big on listen to what I'm telling you more than what I show you on the screen. He always has been. 

IMHO, I thought SB was definitely the lesser of the evils but we weren't supposed to think abt it, just listen to what the other characters were telling us, esp MM and SL who I don't enjoy on this show. Too much morality shoved down my throat in a world that doesn't have any.

SB will remain on ice until EK wants that audience boost again or the series finale because he's not ready for HL to go away yet. Mallory doesn't trust SB enough to let him go until nuclear is the only option and maybe not even then, depending on how long the series goes on.

Whatever, it was fun being introduced to the character. He was a dick and a product of his time that left him behind. Just wish I'd seen more of him.

Kimiko and Frenchie are cute. They need their own show. Their whole sequence in the lab was idiotic and unbelievable. They/Their romance doesn't really belong here, IMO. Just slowing things down.

I think Mallory will go scorched earth like Butcher did this season. The question is when. She will release him to take out HL to save Ryan. She won't care about collateral damage especially Butcher.

No way Frenchie could whip that up like that. That scene is what destroyed the episode for me. Why use an easy get out of jail card like that. Simply say that Vought has it and break in. That would be believable.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

14 hours ago, Smad said:

That's no excuse. So many ways they could have gotten Ryan out since there were plenty people to grab him and go. Including Hughie taking V and porting.

All Payback members were shit stains. All supes we have seen are shit stains. They only vary in degrees and some are less of a shit than others. But other than SL, they are scum. Or at least those who get any fame are one degree of shit or another.

Reminds me of the aftermath of Sam's decisions in S4 of Supernatural. The global death toll by the time the end of S5 comes around...phew. Or the refusal to close the gates of hell (though that wasn't on Kripke's watch).

Don't forget that he also removed the MoC and released the Darkness despite dire warnings not to because... yada yada yada.... People die.

SB stayed on mission... just like he did with Mindstorm. Maeve stayed on mission until she Sasha that SB was going to blow and SL making those eyes. It was a pity because he really should have blown in the building and she could have also shielded Ryan as well  MM would be dead but he knew the odds going in.

[roamyn]

7 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Don't forget that he also removed the MoC and released the Darkness despite dire warnings not to because... yada yada yada.... People die.

That wasn’t him, that was on his idiot brother.

Anyway, back to our scheduled program...MM would’ve probably been the only casualty in your scenario @Castiels Cat.  Maybe Butcher, but Frenchie & Hughie we’re most likely too far away to get hurt.

[Castiels Cat]

13 minutes ago, roamyn said:

That wasn’t him, that was on his idiot brother.

Anyway, back to our scheduled program...MM would’ve probably been the only casualty in your scenario @Castiels Cat.  Maybe Butcher, but Frenchie & Hughie we’re most likely too far away to get hurt.

Sam caused the Apocalypse and released the Darkness by removing the Mo and Dean tried to stop him both times. Sam would not listen.

Butcher was on temp V and surbivedca blast before... yes. Frenchie... Hughie 

Okay. Makes more sense.

Well they should have risk assessed and planned for the blast which was obvious.. they were at Vought with SL and all should have shot up permanent V or stayed out of the fight.

You are either IN or out 

They f'd it up and HL is out there corrupting Ryan who is possibly stronger 

Edited July 9, 2022 by Castiels Cat

[Wizardpatch]

Why would Vought promote Deep's angry ex-wife on their platforms when he is supposed to be one of their "best" supes? 

[Castiels Cat]

14 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

He really didn't. He was just rattled that he wasn't in control. I know you like Jensen Ackles (and so do I) but you got to seperate the actor from the character. Soldier Boy has no redeeming qualities. He's shown that time and again.

It's clear that Noir's flashback is reliable, as the other evidence we have lines up perfectly. It was just a creative way of the writers giving us yet another flashback, without getting too repetitive.

What makes you think he doesn't remember that?

As I also said in my post. Yet we must make some allowances for characters not making the best decisions in the heat of the moment. Especially these chucklefucks. So bad decisions all around, but consistent character- writing.

As I also alluded to in my post. From what I've seen he's worse than most. Not quite homelander-deranged, but seemingly worse than the rest of the seven or payback.

Homelander has let people live quite a few times, because he thought they weren't worth it or for other convoluted reasons, when the plot demanded it. See his private talk with Butcher in the beginning of the season. I took SB letting MM live in the same vein. He seemed bemused that somebody would try to use Halothan on him. Not threatened in any way. So why should he respond with violence? That wasn't an act of benevolence, it was an act of indifference.

I think it was supposed to show that she accepts her nature now, that she is a killer. With or without the V. That she now uses that protect her family, without remorse. But the writers went way over the top with it. Giving you whiplash from her previous struggle with not wanting to be a killer. So not great writing here. That should have ramped up slower and not started with a killing spree set to music.

Victoria.

Hughie has taken 3 doses which is lethal. I assume he is also dying  I also assume that either he or SL took some permanent V when they had the opportunity.  That is the obvious solution.

SB stays on mission no matter what. His words cut. Do not cross him. His skill set means minimum collat6dajage but he's powerful and he will complete his mission so there will be collateral damage.  He is a big dick. That's him in a nut shell..

They did not give us racist or even that he behaved like Blue Hawk. That's extreme extrapolation. I wish that they had explained the car throwing more. Why toss a car.

I knew Ryan would show up and throw the proverbial wrench. I am going to assume that This will lead to Payback revenge tour 2.0.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, Wizardpatch said:

Why would Vought promote Deep's angry ex-wife on their platforms when he is supposed to be one of their "best" supes? 

And still one of the Seven Three. 

[Castiels Cat]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And still one of the Seven Three. 

If he gets fat HL will kill him.

[Aithne]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

No way Frenchie could whip that up like that. That scene is what destroyed the episode for me. Why use an easy get out of jail card like that. Simply say that Vought has it and break in. That would be believable.

What would've helped would've been a line or two about what goes into making it. I'm a biologist, not a chemist, so I don't know what the language would be. But if I were to be talking about a deadly virus, I could say something like "it's not hard to propagate from a technical perspective, you just need x cell line and cell culture equipment you'd find in any lab. The problem would be containment and making sure I don't die, so we'll need a BSL-4." or something along those lines. Doubtful that they'd be allowed to legit discuss how to make it on TV, but even a few lines establishing that it is surprisingly simple to make with a few common organic pesticides or whatever it is, and the challenge is actually (containment, not dying while you're working with it, stability, whatever) which they'd address by doing it at Vought with proper PPE etc. could've eased my mind there. 

And of course, disabling the cameras to give them more time before the guards came storming in, having Kimiko take the fight outside the lab to buy more time before he gets shot, etc. Establishing that they'd need even 20-30  min could have been more believable to the audience (regardless of whether the actual IRL procedure takes 3 minutes or 3 hours). 

I read that the writer for this episode was new, but really, the rest of the team should've tightened these things up before approval. 

Edited July 9, 2022 by Aithne

[Lady Calypso]

So, for a finale, I found it underwhelming, actually. I found parts of the episode rushed and I found the ending to be weaker than I wanted it to be. Maybe because I had different expectations, but I was expecting more. 

I found the fight scene to be especially anticlimatic. It did feel like they went with the easiest possible route. Butcher directly sabotaging the plan for Ryan was....I guess it made sense, but it was done in the poorest of ways. And, yeah, he was fine letting thousands die but not a kid he has a personal attachment to. Which I guess goes to show that Butcher is hindered by his humanity, at the end of the day. 

I'm glad Maeve got her happy ending and gets to leave with Elena into hiding, but I think I would have been fine if she actually died. She did a noble thing and got rightfully recognized for it. It would have sucked, but it would have really upped the stakes.

Black Noir's death was....there, I guess. Guy was underutilized all series and they finally give him some backstory and then kill him off. It was a fine scene, I liked the inclusion of the cartoon characters (made his character more tragic in a way) but overall, disappointing end to a person we barely knew. 

So, I do like Annie, but man is she useless. She has the same weakness as SB (needing time to power up) but she causes far less damage. I was expecting her power up to be more...powerful, I guess. But she just knocked him back a few feet. What a shame. I do hope that this IS a sign that she'll be working on her powers next season, though. Maybe she can harness her power-up and make it into something more lethal.

A-Train surviving this season is a disappointment but I guess we really are getting a redemption arc from him. Eh, I don't think he needs it and I don't see him ever fully joining up with The Boys, but I guess it's inevitable. And I guess they WILL need help with HL so...

So, Deep's wife really was just there for no reason, huh. 

Shame that Ryan turned to the man who his mother tried to keep him away from, but he IS a kid, so I can give him a pass. I hope that, even with HL's influence, he still has some Becca in him to fight off the bad aspects of his new mentor.

I did have a good laugh at SB predictably being disappointed in his son. I figured he would respond to Homelander like that (or hoped he would).

So, yeah, I wanted more and got ok stuff but nothing totally story-changing. Everything was predictable.