S03.E08: The Instant White-Hot Wild

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 7/11/2022 at 7:18 PM, ILoveReading said:

IMO, there is a glaring discrepancy in Noir's flashback, and that is Gunpowder.  If Soldier Boy's abuse was so bad he actually filed a complaint why would he be the one person to not go along with the plan to take down Soldier Boy?

I can't buy that he would have been to scared they wouldn't succeed, since he lodged the complaint in the first place.  If hew as so afraid of Soldier Boy, I can't see him putting in writing and leaving a paper trail where it could get back to Soldier Boy.  Gunpowder would be setting himself up with Vought to either disappear or get killed since that is how Vought deals with problems.

There's a difference between filing a corporate complaint and turning someone over to be tortured and imprisoned. Gunpowder could easily think that making a complaint to Vought was OK because Vought would protect him from SB's wrath by keeping it anonymous or the same control it exercises over all the supes. But he could think selling SB out to the Russians was a bridge too far because of various reasons:

• It's anti-American to give SB to the Russians because it would potentially let them catch up in the supes race.
• It's inhuman to let SB get tortured and experimented on the way the Russians would, and as much of a dick as SB is, he doesn't deserve it
• His personal brand is more tied to SB than the others and he would suffer if SB was to be "killed"

[Castiels Cat]

13 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

There's a difference between filing a corporate complaint and turning someone over to be tortured and imprisoned. Gunpowder could easily think that making a complaint to Vought was OK because Vought would protect him from SB's wrath by keeping it anonymous or the same control it exercises over all the supes. But he could think selling SB out to the Russians was a bridge too far because of various reasons:

• It's anti-American to give SB to the Russians because it would potentially let them catch up in the supes race.
• It's inhuman to let SB get tortured and experimented on the way the Russians would, and as much of a dick as SB is, he doesn't deserve it
• His personal brand is more tied to SB than the others and he would suffer if SB was to be "killed"

Gunpowder disputed Butcher's info although Butcher claimed to have proof...

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Gunpowder disputed Butcher's info although Butcher claimed to have proof...

I'll admit that I don't particularly remember what happened in this particular thread all that well. But there are a couple possibilities that occur to me:

1. Gunpowder was lying when he claimed he didn't know SB was sold out to the Russians. 

2. The other members of Payback did not include Gunpowder in the plan to sell SB out to the Russians because they didn't need to/they suspected he would not go along with it for reasons similar to what I mentioned in the earlier post.

Come to think of it, it really does not seem to make much sense for Vought to sell Soldier Boy out to the Russians at all. The reason the show gives is because they were ready to unveil Homelander as an even more powerful supe.

But a) they could have had SB and HL side by side. and b) they could have likely contained SB themselves. Why give him to the Russians to torture and experiment on other than "because we need the plot to happen?"

[Affogato]

22 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I'll admit that I don't particularly remember what happened in this particular thread all that well. But there are a couple possibilities that occur to me:

1. Gunpowder was lying when he claimed he didn't know SB was sold out to the Russians. 

2. The other members of Payback did not include Gunpowder in the plan to sell SB out to the Russians because they didn't need to/they suspected he would not go along with it for reasons similar to what I mentioned in the earlier post.

Come to think of it, it really does not seem to make much sense for Vought to sell Soldier Boy out to the Russians at all. The reason the show gives is because they were ready to unveil Homelander as an even more powerful supe.

But a) they could have had SB and HL side by side. and b) they could have likely contained SB themselves. Why give him to the Russians to torture and experiment on other than "because we need the plot to happen?"

Homelander was a kid in a skinner box at that time. Vought could easily have assumed he was going to be a lot more biddable than Soldier Boy. You know how currently temp V is their plan for the future, although it is untested and a lethal? So they also set up Homelander as the next wave of more controllable supes, not taking everything into account.

They wanted a new 'Seven' that was more easily controlled. Corporations often do fire a team, even if one or two of the team are good employees, to get a fresh start.

[MAK]

Vought is a corporation always looking at the bottom line. Who says they didn't know what the Russians were upto? 

It makes more sense that Vought was collaborating with the Russians in the testing of Soldier Boy's supe limits. Homelander was only 3-4 years old. He was not waiting in the wings. It is more possible that experiments done on Soldier Boy were also being performed on Homelander. Vought was making a custom super baby. Homelander was not only Soldier Boy's biological son, but he was also (probably) a compound V baby. Homelander was probably getting regular doses of V. 

IMO, the Russians were a fallback if Soldier Boy somehow escaped. Vought would have plausible deniability. What if he was being experimented on by Americans? And then escaped? Right now he was after the team who betrayed him, if he was held by Vought/America what would he have done?

[Smad]

There is no way Vought wasn't in control of whatever happened in Russia. Compound V is their most prized product and they have been very secretive and careful so it doesn't fall into other hands. Remember how Stan Edgar was like 'Idiot Homelander, you let our formula get out' when HL was making supe terrorists.

Why would Vought risk the Russians replicating it? Or just using SB's sperm to make a breeding program? And clearly experiments were done to SB as we saw in video footage. It would not surprise me if Vought used Russia because they would have a harder time doing this in America. And because of the Cold War it was even more ideal of a location. I wonder if SB always had that blast ability (did they tell us?) or if it's a result of the experiments. It could very well be they were trying to create an actual weapon that replicated the depowering effect.

Since I wonder wth Stan's plan was to be out of the supe business. They were still injecting babies with Compound V in S1. And the only ways to not have supes is to either not giving anyone Compound V anymore and wait till they all die off (good luck since some of them can probably live centuries) or to fry the V out of them. How was he planning to be out of the supe in 5 years?

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, MAK said:

IMO, the Russians were a fallback if Soldier Boy somehow escaped. Vought would have plausible deniability. What if he was being experimented on by Americans? And then escaped? Right now he was after the team who betrayed him, if he was held by Vought/America what would he have done?

I'm surprised that Soldier Boy did not make the connection. He was absolutely convinced that Black Noir, at least, would never have gone along with the plan unless it was approved by Vought (and he was right.) But in his desire for revenge against those who betrayed him, Soldier Boy focused only on his team.

Maybe at first he just never believed that Vought would work with the Soviets? But after finding out that they were going to replace him, the connection between Vought and what happened to him was obvious; yet it still never seemed to occur to him to want to go after Stan Edgar.

Or maybe he was so cynical about Vought that he expected them to do stuff like this, and just figured it was nothing personal. Unlike what his team chose to do, which was definitely personal.

[Bergamot]

6 hours ago, Affogato said:

Huge uncontrolled blasts set off by ptsd is a really good reason to put SB down. 
 

even if he’s the sweetest guy in the world. 

Well, if the policy were to put down anyone whose trauma made them dangerous to others, you would need to do the same to everyone on the Boys team. Starting with Butcher, who would have been perfectly okay with the death of everyone in the Vought building if it meant he could get his revenge on Homelander -- if only Ryan had not been there. As a treatment for PTSD, though, it certainly is a way to avoid all those messy, time-consuming efforts to use therapy and medication to help those suffering from it!

Now that the CIA has Soldier Boy back in their custody, though, I have to think they are going to see Soldier Boy's blasts as a weapon that they need to learn how to use, rather than a problem to take care of because it causes danger to civilians. I think it would be stupid for them to allow Soldier Boy to wake up in order to do this, but I also totally believe that the government would be stupid enough to try something like this.

[gonzosgirrl]

39 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I'm surprised that Soldier Boy did not make the connection. He was absolutely convinced that Black Noir, at least, would never have gone along with the plan unless it was approved by Vought (and he was right.) But in his desire for revenge against those who betrayed him, Soldier Boy focused only on his team.

Maybe at first he just never believed that Vought would work with the Soviets? But after finding out that they were going to replace him, the connection between Vought and what happened to him was obvious; yet it still never seemed to occur to him to want to go after Stan Edgar.

Or maybe he was so cynical about Vought that he expected them to do stuff like this, and just figured it was nothing personal. Unlike what his team chose to do, which was definitely personal.

I assume that TPTB at Vought were just next on the list after he finished with his former team.

I also assume that each and every one of The Boys are on the top of the next payback list though. I'd be okay with that as a series finale :)

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

Well, if the policy were to put down anyone whose trauma made them dangerous to others, you would need to do the same to everyone on the Boys team. Starting with Butcher, who would have been perfectly okay with the death of everyone in the Vought building if it meant he could get his revenge on Homelander -- if only Ryan had not been there. As a treatment for PTSD, though, it certainly is a way to avoid all those messy, time-consuming efforts to use therapy and medication to help those suffering from it!

Now that the CIA has Soldier Boy back in their custody, though, I have to think they are going to see Soldier Boy's blasts as a weapon that they need to learn how to use, rather than a problem to take care of because it causes danger to civilians. I think it would be stupid for them to allow Soldier Boy to wake up in order to do this, but I also totally believe that the government would be stupid enough to try something like this.

I wasn't talking about policy, because that would mean I was talking about some agency. Yes, I think Soldier Boy is likely too dangerous to keep alive, even in custody, unless he is unconscious. Even then he presents a danger if someone plans on waking him up. Butcher, Hughie, Starlight all have trauma, but it doesn't result in them having no control and destroying a city block or two of occupied New York City trauma. Again, if he was the nicest guy in the world. This is ability to deal with him in a real world manner.

You take him home, have him to dinner, let him hold the baby. Right? How would you treat someone that volatile and radioactive, for that matter? Comparing him to a fighter pilot who had to bomb a city is disingenuous, although both may have trauma He is written as deliberately past that comparison.

We don't know if Grace is operating on her own or as a CIA operative as far as Soldier Boy goes.

I'm guessing at this point Soldier Boy is part of the endgame. So someone will wake him up.

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I assume that TPTB at Vought were just next on the list after he finished with his former team.

I also assume that each and every one of The Boys are on the top of the next payback list though. I'd be okay with that as a series finale :)

Well, this isn't a story about Soldier Boy, his trauma and his revenge, so I doubt that is what the rest of the show will be about.

[gonzosgirrl]

34 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Well, this isn't a story about Soldier Boy, his trauma and his revenge, so I doubt that is what the rest of the show will be about.

The first part of my post was in response to the question of why he didn't go after Vought along with Payback. I assume he didn't think he was going to be captured, so his plan was to go after Stan/Vought next.

Kripke stated explicitly in an interview that Soldier Boy was kept alive for a reason. I'm not saying his revenge in endgame - but if he's wakened (say, as a weapon for Grace/CIA) and has the opportunity, I'd guess that it would at least be part of the equation.

It's true that as long as he can be triggered by this Russian music/flashback, he's too dangerous to be out in the world. My guess is that the CIA will spend their time learning how to control that (off screen until such time as the story ends), and then they'll use him for whatever the end game is.

Edited July 13, 2022 by gonzosgirrl

[Bergamot]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I also assume that each and every one of The Boys are on the top of the next payback list though. I'd be okay with that as a series finale :)

Yeah, me too! I'm sure that they are not going to be on his Christmas card list! 😊

You're right, Kripke did hint that there is a reason that Soldier Boy is still alive, and said that we would see him again. And it makes sense that if the government had someone so powerful in their possession, there is going to be the desire to use that power. They made sure that at the end they were ready to take him into captivity, with the gas mask and the chamber to keep him in.

40 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm not saying his revenge is endgame - but if he's wakened (say, as a weapon for Grace/CIA) and has the opportunity, I'd guess that it would at least be part of the equation.

Yes, it might not be what the government has in mind, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't happen if they tried to use him for their own purposes.

It is interesting that Vought, which has been working since the beginning to infiltrate Supes into the military, now may be looking to move them into positions of power in the political sphere. For all we know, their endgame may be to reach the point where basically Vought IS the government. I wonder if Victoria is working on her own, or if Edgar is still there behind the scenes?

[wknt3]

On 7/11/2022 at 12:57 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think it's pretty clear that we're supposed to think of Blue Hawk as racist, but I wouldn't be surprised if some viewers thought Blue Hawk had a point.

I thought those viewers stopped watching when "the show got all political"?

[blackwing]

What was the point of The Deep and A Train this season?  

Deep killed the VP candidate presumably because Homelander and Victoria Neuman wanted him to?  There was a clear shot of the poster of The Deep standing behind Homelander.  Why couldn't Victoria just have blown the VP candidate's head herself?

I'm truly annoyed that A Train has survived.  To me he is one of the more despicable and self-centered characters on the show.  I truly have zero interest in him or his redemption.  Can't believe that they killed off Supersonic, who seemed like a promising character, and yet we are stuck with this asshole.

[Mabinogia]

With The Deep, I think the reason he's still around has more to do with his wife than him. I think they have some story they are going to tell with her. There's a reason she was there for the Seven meetings, and was mouthing what The Deep was saying (clearly she is his puppet master and has some scheme in mind). 

As for A-Train. Just ugh. As much as I hat Deep, there are moments when I do feel bad for him. Not that I forgive him for the crap he's done, but I can kind of see why he is the way he is. IDK if it's just better writing, better acting or what but I don't get that with A-Train. He just comes off as a little shit. 

I have a feeling his storyline is going to involve having Blue Hawks heart in him. What that storyline is going to be, IDK, nor do I really care. I'd be fine if he just went away with no explantion. 

[caracas1914]

There is a storyline purpose with The Deep as a barometer of how obsequious and subservient someone can get with Homelander, well, him and the current CEO bald lady. Or maybe, I dunno, a dumbed down version of Aquaman has endless comic appeal to me.   

Homelander seems to be a Superhero Caligula, where everyone trembles because at a whim he just offs who he wants if they fall short, and let's face it, EVERYBODY falls short and disappoints him.

However the show is in "The Handmaiden" territory of  season 3 where the relentless pessimism just grinds everything down.   Homelander is so heads and shoulders above everyone that the tension is dissipating.   Maybe Frenchie with some mad scientists can improve on the V compound so at least the Boys have a viable reason to stand toe to toe with Homelander, because otherwise the plot convulsions why he doesn't blast them all to smithereens is getting ridiculous.

Homelander parenting Ryan is going to be such a clusterf***, imagine the first time that kid really gets petulant and annoying and doesn't give back unconditional love to Daddy.  So I expect Becca to rise up with the values she instilled in her supe son.  

[roamyn]

4 minutes ago, caracas1914 said:

Homelander parenting Ryan is going to be such a clusterf***, imagine the first time that kid really gets petulant and annoying and doesn't give back unconditional love to Daddy.  So I expect Becca to rise up with the values she instilled in her supe son.  

And that’s why Becca didn’t want to leave Ryan, ever.  Other than love of course.

She was worried that the world would end up with two Homelanders (three if you count SB).  Hopefully some of his mother’s and Grace’s teachings will reign the kid back.  But the creepy smirk on his face at the end of S3 does worry me.

Hey since this is a Kripke show, maybe Becca can come back somehow.  Aft all Kripke always brought Sam & Dean back.

[Castiels Cat]

On 7/13/2022 at 3:31 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

The first part of my post was in response to the question of why he didn't go after Vought along with Payback. I assume he didn't think he was going to be captured, so his plan was to go after Stan/Vought next.

Kripke stated explicitly in an interview that Soldier Boy was kept alive for a reason. I'm not saying his revenge in endgame - but if he's wakened (say, as a weapon for Grace/CIA) and has the opportunity, I'd guess that it would at least be part of the equation.

It's true that as long as he can be triggered by this Russian music/flashback, he's too dangerous to be out in the world. My guess is that the CIA will spend their time learning how to control that (off screen until such time as the story ends), and then they'll use him for whatever the end game is.

Nobody puts JA in a box. Not even the Dabbling Hack could do that.

 Definitely see Payback part Deux.

[SherriAnt]

My big 3 from this were; Todd cheering on a murder?! I hope they show if he gets consequences from his wife? (Sorry, forgot her name)

Did anyone else think Ryan looks sickly? He's very pale with dark circles around his eyes.

And why did Noir see cartoons? Did I miss an explanation in past seasons?

[Castiels Cat]

On 8/4/2022 at 2:46 AM, SherriAnt said:

My big 3 from this were; Todd cheering on a murder?! I hope they show if he gets consequences from his wife? (Sorry, forgot her name)

Did anyone else think Ryan looks sickly? He's very pale with dark circles around his eyes.

And why did Noir see cartoons? Did I miss an explanation in past seasons?

Noir is apparently mentally ill and apparently spend his spare time hanging out in n abandoned, derelict fast food pizza restaurant from his childhood. He feels safe there. The imaginary cartoon mascots of the restaurant are his only friends and confidants, even accompanying him to work, and he eats beans. Those cartoons tell Noir everything he needs to hear just like HL's magic mirror.

[babaGAReeb]

I wish more was done with him, he is my favorite character. But he is senselessly murdered by a-train the hypocrite.

Justice for Blue Hawk! a-train deserves to be executed, he is a drug addicted criminal who should die already. 

[CaptainE]

On 9/28/2022 at 5:52 PM, babaGAReeb said:

I wish more was done with him, he is my favorite character. But he is senselessly murdered by a-train the hypocrite.

Justice for Blue Hawk! a-train deserves to be executed, he is a drug addicted criminal who should die already. 

Yeah, I for one am glad we don’t need to see the douchebag blue hawk again.  He got what was coming to him.

Edited October 1, 2022 by CaptainE

[babaGAReeb]

On 10/1/2022 at 7:12 AM, CaptainE said:

Yeah, I for one am glad we don’t need to see the douchebag blue hawk again.  He got what was coming to him.

He did not deserve to be killed by a drug addicted criminal, the very threat he protects us from.

Bluehawk has flown to heaven now. May he watch over us. 

[CaptainE]

4 hours ago, babaGAReeb said:

He did not deserve to be killed by a drug addicted criminal, the very threat he protects us from.

Bluehawk has flown to heaven now. May he watch over us. 

He was a criminal as well in case you forgot.
Heaven?  Watch over?

You do know this is fiction don’t you?

Odd

Edited November 27, 2022 by CaptainE
Added information

[babaGAReeb]

On 11/27/2022 at 9:02 AM, CaptainE said:

He was a criminal as well in case you forgot.
Heaven?  Watch over?

You do know this is fiction don’t you?

Odd

No he wasnt, all he did was defend himself

the spirit of what he represents is very real, the spirit of justice