S03.E05: A Tale of Two Topas

[PurpleTentacle]

7 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

Yaphit's species don't appear to wear clothing as a rule?  Plus I suppose, the naked ensign's bum looked like a humanoid bum, whereas Yaphit just looks like a puddle. 

That seems to be a very discriminatory policy, based on body shape. I doubt that would hold up if challanged.

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

15 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

Yaphit's species don't appear to wear clothing as a rule?  Plus I suppose, the naked ensign's bum looked like a humanoid bum, whereas Yaphit just looks like a puddle. 

That seems to be a very discriminatory policy, based on body shape. I doubt that would hold up if challanged.

Yes. 
However, as I suggested upthread:  ". . . a uniform would prevent Yaphit from doing his job of slithering into tight spaces to perform tune-ups and so forth."
Maybe the naked butt guy's naked butt will make another appearance when NB guy (Ensign Bolobar the Belkarian) points out Yaphit's nakedness and it gets explained as an exception made for Yaphit to perform his job better than any other species could?

I wonder if there are any Belkarian butts that are more attractive, and if the appearance of a bare attractive Belkarian butt could lead to a future comic relief B or C plot -- or even a more serious workplace rights plot with some comedic asides.

Edited July 3, 2022 by shapeshifter

[shapeshifter]

9 hours ago, ketose said:

I think Claire is a robosexual.

On 6/30/2022 at 3:46 PM, shapeshifter said:

I guess the key to Claire's attraction to Isaac was in her line about how he's the most honest man she's ever met, perhaps saying "man" to indicate that it made him sexually attractive to her as a heteronormative woman, which was then reenforced by her leading him away by the hand.
It was kind of weird to me too, but also thought provoking with regards to honesty about motivations.

I'm not sure if you were mostly just adding a little levity or being serious, @ketose, (or both) but Claire as a robosexual seems like an interesting concept for the writers to develop.

• Kaylons as sex slaves needing to be rescued? Perhaps too Battlestar Galactica derivative? 
• Kaylons developing feelings due to unintentional reprogramming as a result of being "in a relationship" with a humanoid?
  --which could trigger a Kaylon civil war between those who want to annihilate humanoids and those who see their usefulness and/or are their mates?
• Kaylons as honeypot spys? Oh. Wait. Already done with the Krill. But just like Captain Kirk never learned his lesson about fraternizing with new species, well, enough said about Ed.
  But if Isaac goes all mass assassin again (and kills Charly), I expect Claire would be definitely over it.
  Or not. Which could be a really long plot arc.

[Ottis]

8 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But even within the parameters of the route they chose, they probably could have done better.

I will *never* disagree with you on that point! You are correct, and you go on to state better writing choices as well for this ep. This is complete conjecture on my part, but it truly does feel on Orville like somehow it is Seth behind these misses, with some "smartest man in the room" syndrome going on. Orville very consistently tries to position itself as "good scifi," and just as consistently continues to make odd choices that cause it not *not* be good scifi. It's in the ballpark, it has some nice production values and plot concepts (which I assume is also Seth) it just can't find the right path. That consistency feels like a single source is behind it. But like I said, there is no way to know that unless you are a writer for the show.

For instance, I could picture the actual writers choosing your option of having Isaac do the surgery without telling anyone, or maybe having the Chosen One kid from a few eps ago leave behind technology to help M'Benga's daughter without telling anyone, and then Seth saying, "No, I want to do it this other way." And the original writing idea would have been both better and more consistent. But no one can argue with a guy who casts himself as lead and hires his own girlfriends as actors.

8 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Topa wasn't allowed to do more as a girl than he had been as a boy. The issue was that Topa was gravitating toward Kelly because she was unconsciously seeking her out as a female role model. Klyden disliked the influence Kelly was having on Topa's yearning to be female, and so cut off Kelly's access to Topa. I'm sure that if Topa had asked Bortus or Ed as a boy, he would have been able to do the same order.

That's conjecture. The reverse *could* have also been true - Topa as a boy asked, and was told no. We have no idea.

In terms of what we were actually shown, Topa was indeed allowed to do more as a girl than a boy (if you consider being on the bridge, in the captain's seat with the command staff, as "more" ... which I would). The show could have casually showed Topa as a boy on the bridge at any time. It didn't. What the *show* did, in order to congratulate itself, was choose to show Topa as a girl to do it, which leaves us to wonder why it didn't happen before with a child when Topa was training with Kelly *and* had made everyone pleasantly surprised by saying he (at the time) wanted to go to the Union academy. I'm just reacting to what was actually shown.

8 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I get that the Orville is the center of the universe for this show. But my point was that it seems like Topa's issues about his feeling female should have been addressed at least somewhat by the wealth of information that would be out there about Moclans who feel female.

Continue to agree with you here. This should not have been a mystery, as I noted in an earlier post. There have to had been many cases like this on Moclan, and even if the ruling government suppressed the topic you would think there would have been at least some info on how this had been handled (or rules aorund how it *should* be handled). But that info wouldn't have involved the Orville, so within this show, it didn't matter. This entire, complex societal issue is encapsulated in only Topa's tale, because the Orville is involved with Topa and that is how this show rolls.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Ottis

[Ottis]

On 6/30/2022 at 1:46 PM, shapeshifter said:

I guess the key to Claire's attraction to Isaac was in her line about how he's the most honest man she's ever met, perhaps saying "man" to indicate that it made him sexually attractive to her as a heteronormative woman, which was then reenforced by her leading him away by the hand.

Given Claire is older (certainly within the confines of this show, and IRL the actor is 61), that line to me read like a woman who is tired of men, period. And Isaac's lack of personal needs or motivations is easier for her to deal with at this point than human males. I don't know how I feel about her character or the stuff with Isaac. YMMV, but they seem to be having the actor playing Claire play "young" and put her in story lines (mom with young kids, woman looking for love) that don't fit. TOS did have a few love interests for McCoy, but they were fleeting and it never felt like he was on the prowl for a date, much less had kids. They need to either take this further than they have and make it a thing (older people have love lives, too) or they need to go in another direction. It feels a little anti-men at times right now. Again, just my opinion, and it isn't a strong one.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

. . . YMMV, but they seem to be having the actor playing Claire play "young" and put her in story lines (mom with young kids, woman looking for love) that don't fit. . . 

While your complete post above mostly fits with how I see the Claire-Isaac pairing on the show, my mileage (of which I have a lot, LOL) does vary with regards to your perception (if I understood correctly) of Claire seemingly dropped into romantic plots that don't fit the actor's (or the character's?) age.

For one thing, several centuries from now I imagine physical youthfulness might be easily maintained. 
And this would not just be WRT appearance.
For example, just this week I had to sadly accept that my 5 month old grandbaby is now too heavy for me to carry around without causing my own body harm.😞
But I can easily picture in the distant future someone of Claire's age +10 or 20 or maybe even 100 years having no problem carrying around an adorable 18-pound Lambykins. 
So Claire might be the perfect age mentally and physically to have kids, a lover, etc. 

But yes, excellent points about how someone who has had 60 years of life experience might see Isaac as the perfect blend of an expertly designed device to gratify her physical desires combined with the stimulating intelligence of the best minds known to humanoid-kind, and all without any needy baggage. 

Edited July 3, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Ceindreadh]

10 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I get that the Orville is the center of the universe for this show. But my point was that it seems like Topa's issues about his feeling female should have been addressed at least somewhat by the wealth of information that would be out there about Moclans who feel female. IRL, it's at least somewhat understandable that someone who is trans is not able to vocalize that feeling or find out more about LGBTQ+ people because there are various obstacles to that (religious stigmas, class/regional issues meaning that there can be wide gaps in access to information or the ability to encounter other LGBTQ+ people, etc.) But in the framework of the Union, it seems like such things should be non-issues. 

What information though would be out there?  The Moclans have previously insisted that the birth of a female is such a rare occurrence as to only happen once in a hundred years.  We know that's a lie.  Do you really think the Moclan ruling body is going to allow information about Moclans who feel female to be widely available or are they more likely to double down and pretend that it just doesn't happen. 

[ketose]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I'm not sure if you were mostly just adding a little levity or being serious, @ketose, (or both) but Claire as a robosexual seems like an interesting concept for the writers to develop.

• Kaylons as sex slaves needing to be rescued? Perhaps too Battlestar Galactica derivative? 
• Kaylons developing feelings due to unintentional reprogramming as a result of being "in a relationship" with a humanoid?
  --which could trigger a Kaylon civil war between those who want to annihilate humanoids and those who see their usefulness and/or are their mates?
• Kaylons as honeypot spys? Oh. Wait. Already done with the Krill. But just like Captain Kirk never learned his lesson about fraternizing with new species, well, enough said about Ed.
  But if Isaac goes all mass assassin again (and kills Charly), I expect Claire would be definitely over it.
  Or not. Which could be a really long plot arc.

I was thinking about Futurama (Don't Date Robots!) when I wrote that.

Given the timing, it seems like Isaac was trying to help Claire the most. He only offered his assistance when Claire was planning to resign her commission and leave the Orville. It reminds me of DS9 (Children of Time) where "future" Odo saved Kira for completely personal reasons, but in that case also at a great cost.

[Ottis]

15 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

For one thing, several centuries from now I imagine physical youthfulness might be easily maintained. 
And this would not just be WRT appearance.
For example, just this week I had to sadly accept that my 5 month old grandbaby is now too heavy for me to carry around without causing my own body harm.😞
But I can easily picture in the distant future someone of Claire's age +10 or 20 or maybe even 100 years having no problem carrying around an adorable 18-pound Lambykins. 
So Claire might be the perfect age mentally and physically to have kids, a lover, etc. 

I considered all this as I thought about how I respond to Claire's arc. In the end I rejected it, because TOS could have done the same thing. ANY sci-fi show could say "60 is the new 20 in the future." And that would be alright, I guess. But the goal of allegorical sci-fi is to have your real-life audience identify with the situation and characters, so that they think about the dilemmas proposed and the solutions offered and compare them to their own lives and situations.

For example, it's easy to say "this futuristic starship humans haven't even invented can travel to other worlds in hours," because none of us have any experience with warp drive starships. But you test the audience when you say "this person who looks 60 to you is picking up 20 year-olds and has a baby."  Obviously that isn't exactly what Claire is, but that's to make the point. Once you present possibilities that don't yet exist in the current real life, you risk losing that connection.

Which BTW, is why I have hated the multiverse in all the comic book movies and shows from the moment it became popularized. It is a ready-made reset for anything, and renders anything we see as viewers moot. You can watch people die and all of a sudden, they are back - just from a different universe or timeline! That was a step too far for me.

14 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

10 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I get that the Orville is the center of the universe for this show. But my point was that it seems like Topa's issues about his feeling female should have been addressed at least somewhat by the wealth of information that would be out there about Moclans who feel female. IRL, it's at least somewhat understandable that someone who is trans is not able to vocalize that feeling or find out more about LGBTQ+ people because there are various obstacles to that (religious stigmas, class/regional issues meaning that there can be wide gaps in access to information or the ability to encounter other LGBTQ+ people, etc.) But in the framework of the Union, it seems like such things should be non-issues. 

What information though would be out there?  The Moclans have previously insisted that the birth of a female is such a rare occurrence as to only happen once in a hundred years.  We know that's a lie.  Do you really think the Moclan ruling body is going to allow information about Moclans who feel female to be widely available or are they more likely to double down and pretend that it just doesn't happen.

I can go either way on this. You are right, Moclan wouldn't have wanted much of this info out there. That said, I have to assume, given the extent to which we were shown in that earlier episode that the prevailing belief is wrong, that *something* is out there. And even if it isn't, since the Orville discovered the truth, seems like there would be more info available to Union crews on how to handle these situations, IMO, even if contributions from the planet itself are scarce.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Ceindreadh said:

What information though would be out there?  The Moclans have previously insisted that the birth of a female is such a rare occurrence as to only happen once in a hundred years.  We know that's a lie.  Do you really think the Moclan ruling body is going to allow information about Moclans who feel female to be widely available or are they more likely to double down and pretend that it just doesn't happen. 

The Moclan government/culture does not have a monopoly on information about Moclan sexuality, history, politics etc. There is a limit to what they can control what is put out there. The Union bureaucracy might be willing to toe the line, but there are numerous people/planets who would presumably have some knowledge of female Moclans who would not have any reason to stay silent and who in fact would proclaim loudly that there was an injustice being done to female Moclans.

The firsthand stories of Moclans who are born female and their parents would be out there somewhere, even if it is largely confined to "Thank God/goodness we were able to avert tragedy and have our child's deformity corrected" and pro-conversion therapy materials from people who were born female. Sure, being in denial about such things might make them fewer than one might think. But if there's any equivalent of today's Internet, there would be people doing blogs, podcasts, posts about it that could be found through future Google.

We know that a highly popular Moclan author came out as female as part of Topa's case. One would think that information about her coming out of the closet would exist.

We know that there is a colony of female Moclans that exists. The information must be out there somewhere about those women's stories, the Underground Railroad that allows that colony to be found, etc.

The scientific and historical studies that discuss how Moclans became a mostly male species are out there.

The Union public records as to at a minimum the 2-3 times the Orville dealt directly with the issue of Moclan gender, not to mention any other times other ships may have done so over however many years the Union has existed.

Any outsiders' studies of Moclan culture looking at any of the related issues to a single-gender species. 

There are probably other sources of info that would be out there on the subjects of gender and Moclans.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[Affogato]

On 6/30/2022 at 11:32 PM, kay1864 said:

Glad to hear him sing, but damn that line was delivered too harshly.

It was, but I took it as a sign that he was anxious because of what he knew was happening elsewhere.

[Affogato]

4 hours ago, Ottis said:

Given Claire is older (certainly within the confines of this show, and IRL the actor is 61), that line to me read like a woman who is tired of men, period. And Isaac's lack of personal needs or motivations is easier for her to deal with at this point than human males. I don't know how I feel about her character or the stuff with Isaac. YMMV, but they seem to be having the actor playing Claire play "young" and put her in story lines (mom with young kids, woman looking for love) that don't fit. TOS did have a few love interests for McCoy, but they were fleeting and it never felt like he was on the prowl for a date, much less had kids. They need to either take this further than they have and make it a thing (older people have love lives, too) or they need to go in another direction. It feels a little anti-men at times right now. Again, just my opinion, and it isn't a strong one.

I find it hard to get a fix on what she sees in Isaac, but this episode shows that they both are important to the other, and I agree that she may well be happy enough not to have to deal with the complexities of a living man. She did choose to have the children on her own, so she is fairly independent, and is the dominant one in the relationship with Isaac. I don't think, maybe, 'tired of men' or antiman, but just that Isaac is what she needs, and she is okay with that.. It would be interesting if she turned out to be asexual, though. Hard to work into a show. And I don't think she needs to be asexual.

I don't think she is playing younger. If she had the kids when she is 45-50, this is not outside the realm of our current possibility (especially if she froze some eggs).

Really a good show, the music was great, the integration with the first season was superb. I hope we end up encountering the female moclans again.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Affogato said:

It was, but I took it as a sign that he was anxious because of what he knew was happening elsewhere.

This but I also thought is indicated how far he was stepping out of his comfort zone to do it. Singing for the crew was something he actively resisted and he only agreed to help Topa. 

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

This but I also thought is indicated how far he was stepping out of his comfort zone to do it. Singing for the crew was something he actively resisted and he only agreed to help Topa. 

I agree. His tone was too sharp, but I would have just put that down to nerves since, as you pointed out, he's always been shy about drawing any attention to himself or to his talents.

[supposebly]

4 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

But yes, excellent points about how someone who has had 60 years of life experience might see Isaac as the perfect blend of an expertly designed device to gratify her physical desires combined with the stimulating intelligence of the best minds known to humanoid-kind, and all without any needy baggage. 

I get that part. What I don't get is that there is no reciprocating any feelings. So, in essence, he is a very sophisticated sex toy. Or a very smart escort. That does not equal a relationship in my book. It's just the usual Star Trek story of the tin man becoming more human (Spock, Data, Odo, The Doctor, Seven of Nine). Just this time, it's through the good love of a woman. Ugh.

I'm so very bored of that. And to me, it smells just a tiny bit of racism/speciesm since being human is always presented as something better.

I hope the show surprises me and the tin man stays the tin man. But I don't have high hopes.

[Yeah No]

I finally watched this episode.  I think Klyden is acting this way out of jealousy that he was never given the option to be female and he is taking it out on Topa.  "Misery loves company" after all.  I wonder if at some point we might see him again as a "her".  Although he is holding onto Moclan ideology pretty strongly to feel better about being a male, so I suppose he's not going to change any time soon but hold onto those views and perpetuate his self loathing.  And that's very sad, but understandable.

I am finding it interesting that people didn't notice the feminization of Topa's face after the procedure.  I've looked at a lot of computer generated faces that were changed from a male to a more female appearance and vice versa, and it looked like they did something very similar with Topa's face pre and post-procedure.  Specifically, post-procedure there were subtle changes to the jawline, width of the brow and eyes to all be more "gracile".  Females tend to have less heavy jaws and brow lines than males, and more feminine eyes.  In fact I even noticed that the person playing Topa was likely female and that some makeup and facial padding was added to make her look more male pre-procedure.  So post-procedure they just removed those things.

As to Yaphit not wearing a uniform, my guess is it's because he doesn't have any noticeable genitals that are exposed from not wearing one.  When Kelly told that nude officer that they could compromise if he wore some pants, that pretty much convinced me of that.    

What I found interesting is how the Union doesn't seem to have any sort of "prime directive" that would make the captain lecture Kelly for sticking her nose in the Moclans' personal business.  I'm personally happy she did, but it felt noticeably at odds with Trek on that point.  I kept thinking about how Picard would have lectured her to stay out of it.  The admiral's reasoning for not approving of the surgery was based on what it would do to the diplomatic situation but no non-interference ideology was expressed.

In all, a very good episode, though.  I appreciated the break from the constant action and "pew, pew" scenes, and a return to more personal issues and relationships within the crew.

[Yeah No]

16 hours ago, Ottis said:

Given Claire is older (certainly within the confines of this show, and IRL the actor is 61), that line to me read like a woman who is tired of men, period. And Isaac's lack of personal needs or motivations is easier for her to deal with at this point than human males. I don't know how I feel about her character or the stuff with Isaac. YMMV, but they seem to be having the actor playing Claire play "young" and put her in story lines (mom with young kids, woman looking for love) that don't fit. TOS did have a few love interests for McCoy, but they were fleeting and it never felt like he was on the prowl for a date, much less had kids. They need to either take this further than they have and make it a thing (older people have love lives, too) or they need to go in another direction. It feels a little anti-men at times right now. Again, just my opinion, and it isn't a strong one.

In her century maybe Claire isn't seen as too old for certain things and could have children at an older age, which I see as progress and applaud.  And any hint at any anti-men stuff I take as part of the character's personal baggage based on being burned in the past by men and reacting to it this way.  I don't see that as an age thing necessarily and not any evidence of any "anti-male" stance by the show in general.   YMMV.

[Chaos Theory]

On 6/30/2022 at 2:00 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

.

Are we supposed to think that approximately 10-15 years or more have passed since S1, or do Moclans just develop super-fast too?

I hate to be the person who counts tropes because it actually ruins the enjoyment of a show for me but when they are logical to use I am fine with them.   This is an oldy but a goodie and in science fiction logical,  Soap opera rapid aging syndrome.    With children who are "aliens" and need to wear alot of prosthetics you actually NEED to age them more then you might a human child.  Plus aging a kid 10 years is simply the way you need to go if you want to include them in a storyline.   You are not going to wait 10 years to tell a story that you can tell now. 

Topa was the perfect person for all this to happen to BECASUE both her (yeah it is her right?)  have been part of the storyline of Orville from the start and have had vastly different reactions to the mere idea that Topa was born a female.   Klyden has been on the side of tradition in large part because of shame.  Who knows the level of shame that was cast on him growing up and it would be interesting to dive into it even a little because he was born female.   It would explain his often extreme reactions through several Moclan episodes over the series that collimated in his complete rejection of Topa.   Say what you want about Klyden but New Horizons  remained true to his character as well. it would not have been realistic if he had a sudden change of heart. Not at this juncture. Not at this time.

The mentorship between Kelly and Topa was sweet and would love it to continue.  I do think the season has been one of the better ones because the show has mostly dropped the Ed/Kelly ship and had both characters focus on other things.   Kelly can focus on helping Bortus out with Topa.  She will need a female roll model and there is no one better the Kelly.

Loved that Issac was the one to perform the surgery.  It was an interesting way to get around The Union nixing the idea in large part because they actually NEED The Moclans to remain in The Union especially now that The Krill have left   Plus we finally got to hear Bortus sing.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Chaos Theory

[RedHawk]

5 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I finally watched this episode.  I think Klyden is acting this way out of jealousy that he was never given the option to be female and he is taking it out on Topa.  "Misery loves company" after all.  I wonder if at some point we might see him again as a "her".  Although he is holding onto Moclan ideology pretty strongly to feel better about being a male, so I suppose he's not going to change any time soon but hold onto those views and perpetuate his self loathing.  And that's very sad, but understandable.

I liked this episode more than the others so far this season, and it had some excellent acting (and singing!) on display.

My main dislike was that I wish Klyden's part in the story had gone in another direction or his being born female been taken more into account. Splitting the focus between Klyden's inner struggle as well as Topa's could have made a much stronger episode.

When will someone tell Topa that Klyden was also born female and underwent the surgery that he was told "fixed" something very wrong with him? I was looking for that secret to be revealed to Topa and perhaps lead to deep conversation and developments between Topa and Klyden. I also think Klyden is subconsciously "jealous" (as well as fearful, confused, stunned, ashamed) that Topa wants to reverse the surgery and live as a female. He was brainwashed by his family and society into hating females, and thus his true self. He talked of his pain on discovering he had been born "deformed", pain that's clearly unresolved and affected his behavior from the moment Topa was hatched. 

I understand writing Klyden the way it was done, but I thought it was somewhat heavy-handed and predictable. I hope that one day Klyden will reappear and there will be a whole story about how he sought out the female Moclans and came to understand and grow more comfortable with his suppressed self, then expresses sympathy, acceptance, and love for his child, and understand Bortus' actions and forgive him. I didn't expect all that to happen in this episode, and his actions were believable and in line with the character, but I wish we'd seen more deeply into his feelings and internal struggle.

I'll miss Klyden, he and Bortus were so fun to watch as a couple. 

Edited July 4, 2022 by RedHawk
Spelling

[Affogato]

14 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I hate to be the person who counts tropes because it actually ruins the enjoyment of a show for me but when they are logical to use them I am fine with them.   This is an oldy but a goodie and in science fiction logical Soap opera rapid aging syndrome.    Especially with children who are "aliens" and need to wear alot of prosthetics you actually NEED to age them more then you might a human child.  Plus aging a kid 10 years is simply the way you need to go if you want to include them in a storyline.   You are not going to wait 10 years to tell a story that you can tell now. 

Topa was the perfect person for all this to happen to BECASUE both her (yeah it is her right?)  have been part of the storyline of Orville from the start and have had vastly different reactions to the mere idea that Topa was born a female.   Klyden has been on the side of tradition in large part because of shame.  Who knows the level of shame that was cast on him growing up and it would be interesting to dive into it even a little because he was born female.   It would explain his often extreme reactions through several Moclan episodes over al the series that collimated in his complete rejection of Topa.   Say what you want about Klyden but New Horizons  remained true to his character as well. it would not have been realistic if he had a sudden change of heart. Not at this juncture. Not at this time.

The mentorship between Kelly and Topa was sweet and would love it to continue.  I do think the season has been one of the better ones because the show has mostly dropped the Ed/Kelly ship and had both characters focus on other things.   Kelly can focus on helping Bortus out with Topa.  She will need a female roll model and there is no one better the Kelly.

Loved that Issac was the one to perform the surgery.  It was an interesting way to get around The Union nixing the idea in large part because they actually NEED The Moclan'ss to remain in The Union especially now that The Krill have left   Plus we finally got to hear Bortus sing.

It would be interesting if they find the female moclans in the unlikely fourth season and Klyden has joined them. But yeah of the moclans Klyden is the one with more Moclan story to tell. 

[Ottis]

6 hours ago, Yeah No said:

n her century maybe Claire isn't seen as too old for certain things and could have children at an older age, which I see as progress and applaud.

I addressed this point a few posts above. I'll add to that that if this was the intention of the show, they should include a few lines that make it clear. "Given medical advances over the past 200 years, humans routinely live past 125 and have children at 60!" IMO.

1 hour ago, RedHawk said:

My main dislike was that I wish Klyden's part in the story had gone in another direction or his being born female been taken more into account. Splitting the focus between Klyden's inner struggle as well as Topa's could have made a much stronger episode.

That's a really good observation. It would have made for a much more interesting character than the bluster we saw. I assumed, I guess, that Klyden instinctively lashed out at this issue *because* of his past, a sort of compensation to cover his pain. But nothing was ever made clear about that guess.

6 hours ago, Yeah No said:

What I found interesting is how the Union doesn't seem to have any sort of "prime directive" that would make the captain lecture Kelly for sticking her nose in the Moclans' personal business.  I'm personally happy she did, but it felt noticeably at odds with Trek on that point. 

The Union does seem to have some general rules, but they seem situational. If there weren't an ongoing war, with the Moclans as allies, the Union decision on Topa may well have been different. I don't know if I like that part of Orville. It's good to stand for something, vs. situational ethics. Orville is more like IRL I guess.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Ottis

[iMonrey]

Quote

I am finding it interesting that people didn't notice the feminization of Topa's face after the procedure. 

I did. I think the Moclan makeup is just so elaborate many people didn't notice the subtle differences.

Quote

You've just described Orville. They aspire to be good Trek, and good Trek is allegorical scifi. But they (Orville) 1) don't have the writing/producing horsepower/perspective to pull it off, and 2) they are way too proud of themselves for the positions they take. Orville is like a college freshman/person - lots of ideas bouncing around, and some strong stances, but very little nuance, actual experiences or ability to communicate its view well. 

Yeah. Notice this episode was written and directed by Seth MacFarlane. I don't think this episode was terrible but I do think it was very superficial and rushed, and about as subtle as a sledgehammer. The show is trying way too hard to be serious SyFy and IMO they just aren't pulling it off. It comes across as either derivative or amateurish. 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Yeah No said:

What I found interesting is how the Union doesn't seem to have any sort of "prime directive" that would make the captain lecture Kelly for sticking her nose in the Moclans' personal business.  I'm personally happy she did, but it felt noticeably at odds with Trek on that point.  I kept thinking about how Picard would have lectured her to stay out of it.  The admiral's reasoning for not approving of the surgery was based on what it would do to the diplomatic situation but no non-interference ideology was expressed.

Even in Trek the prime directive wouldn’t have applied because the Moclans are part of the Union. The prime directive is to protect other species from outside interference but that would go out the window once they become official allies. 

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I hate to be the person who counts tropes because it actually ruins the enjoyment of a show for me but when they are logical to use I am fine with them.

Me too. It is a well known trope but it also breaks the trope that the universe is filled with aliens that look and develop like us. Plus in this case it was established very early on so it doesn’t feel like a plot convenience. I take much more issue with Ed’s daughter which feels more contrived for plot reasons. I do really which the Klyden and Topa would have been recurring characters before this episode to set it up better. 

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Yeah. Notice this episode was written and directed by Seth MacFarlane.

Of course he did. I appreciate what he is trying to do and enjoyed the episode but this is one of those times where the show would have been better served with a trans writer taking the reins. Seth takes over writing when he cares about the issues but he doesn’t seem to under there are often other people with a better understanding of the issues. 

[Ottis]

11 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I am finding it interesting that people didn't notice the feminization of Topa's face after the procedure. 

Curious, why? I noticed she looked different, it seemed like the spiral ridges on the side of her head were different, and of course the actor changed some things including her voice. I didn't mention it because I figured I assumed she would be different given the procedure, and she was. I think it's interesting that people noted they didn't notice a change. Were they expecting something specific?

45 minutes ago, Dani said:

Seth takes over writing when he cares about the issues but he doesn’t seem to under there are often other people with a better understanding of the issues.

That's "smartest man in the room" syndrome. It's Orville's Achilles Heel, as I've noted in many posts. Seth managed to create this show and get it aired, and he has contributed to some good ideas and characters. But the show works best when Ed is a background character, and Seth lets others take the reins, IMO. Let the team get the ball over the goal sometimes. Adrian P is excellent, for instance. She probably should be the captain. 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Ottis

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

Curious, why? I noticed she looked different, it seemed like the spiral ridges on the side of her head were different, and of course the actor changed some things including her voice. I didn't mention it because I figured I assumed she would be different given the procedure, and she was. I think it's interesting that people noted they didn't notice a change. Were they expecting something specific?

I just went back to the episode to compare the before and after Topa. I still do not see much of a difference physically. Obviously her post-procedure voice is different. I don't know how to screen-shot for a side-by-side comparison, so maybe if I had that it would be more apparent. 

I would expect, especially given their advanced medical science, that Isaac would have given Topa more prominent female characteristics like breasts and curves. The examples of female Moclans we have seen generally seemed to have them. Now perhaps Topa is young enough that she wouldn't have developed in that way.

2 hours ago, Dani said:

Of course he did. I appreciate what he is trying to do and enjoyed the episode but this is one of those times where the show would have been better served with a trans writer taking the reins. Seth takes over writing when he cares about the issues but he doesn’t seem to under there are often other people with a better understanding of the issues. 

I don't think the episode needed to be a trans writer -- although that presumably would have improved things. 

23 hours ago, supposebly said:

I get that part. What I don't get is that there is no reciprocating any feelings. So, in essence, he is a very sophisticated sex toy. Or a very smart escort. That does not equal a relationship in my book. It's just the usual Star Trek story of the tin man becoming more human (Spock, Data, Odo, The Doctor, Seven of Nine). Just this time, it's through the good love of a woman. Ugh.

I'm so very bored of that. And to me, it smells just a tiny bit of racism/speciesm since being human is always presented as something better.

I hope the show surprises me and the tin man stays the tin man. But I don't have high hopes.

In all the Trek examples, the outsider was human at heart. They seem to be playing Isaac that way too. Despite his insistence that he does not have emotion as such, he was romantically interested in Claire and attached to her kids. In fact, it was those emotions that caused him to turn on his people. And it's those emotions that caused him to commit suicide.. 

It seems ridiculous that Claire would label the guy who had been spying on the Union for a year to betray them to his people "the most honest man she knows." If that is indeed true, she needs to get out more.

Then again, I take his "I was helping Topa only to increase my popularity with the crew" as transparent BS. Because a. the crew won't necessarily know or care about Isaac helping Topa b. there are a lot more direct ways for Isaac to attempt to boost his popularity and c. even among those who previously disliked/distrusted Isaac, the one kind act isn't going to come close to overcoming what Isaac is guilty of. 

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't think the episode needed to be a trans writer -- although that presumably would have improved things. 

Needed? It all depends. Needed to make a good episode? Clearly not since this was a good episode. Needed to be fully serve the characters as fully developed people rather than just a plot device? Absolutely. I am tired of the very special episode approach to issues like this. 

44 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

On 7/3/2022 at 2:28 PM, supposebly said:

In all the Trek examples, the outsider was human at heart. They seem to be playing Isaac that way too. Despite his insistence that he does not have emotion as such, he was romantically interested in Claire and attached to her kids. In fact, it was those emotions that caused him to turn on his people. And it's those emotions that caused him to commit suicide.. 

I don’t see it. Or it may be more accurate to say I see it way less here than in any other example. Writers and audiences are prone to anthropomorphize characters like Issac so that is always going to bleed through to some extent but I think that most of what he has done can be explained without emotions. There were practical and nonemotional reasons for him to switch sides. On his own planet he had no power. He was just a tool that was intended to deactivate once his purpose was filled. There are logical reasons to side with the people hold you as a valuable part rather than the side who views you as disposable. 

44 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Then again, I take his "I was helping Topa only to increase my popularity with the crew" as transparent BS. Because a. the crew won't necessarily know or care about Isaac helping Topa b. there are a lot more direct ways for Isaac to attempt to boost his popularity and c. even among those who previously disliked/distrusted Isaac, the one kind act isn't going to come close to overcoming what Isaac is guilty of. 

I can’t agree. The women who hated him the most decided to save him because a teenager felt guilty so I absolutely think that helping Topa would make a difference. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

49 minutes ago, Dani said:

I don’t see it. Or it may be more accurate to say I see it way less here than in any other example. Writers and audiences are prone to anthropomorphize characters like Issac so that is always going to bleed through to some extent but I think that most of what he has done can be explained without emotions. There were practical and nonemotional reasons for him to switch sides. On his own planet he had no power. He was just a tool that was intended to deactivate once his purpose was filled. There are logical reasons to side with the people hold you as a valuable part rather than the side who views you as disposable. 

I can’t agree. The women who hated him the most decided to save him because a teenager felt guilty so I absolutely think that helping Topa would make a difference. 

I don't think that Isaac was expected to deactivate, but I could be not remembering Identity correctly. In any event, the way the story was presented, he only decided to switch sides when whichever young Finn was threatened. Any logical calculus about him not fitting in with the Kaylons or acting out of self-preservation did not kick in earlier.

The fact that Charly revived Isaac despite hating him to alleviate Marcus's guilt is a contrivance that does not make sense. There is no real reason to think that her reaction is going to be an accurate reflection of those who hate or distrust Isaac. But even if we were to take Charly as a barometer for the crew, Charly has not changed her opinion of Isaac. There is no particular reason to think that a normal human being who hates Isaac for his backstabbing of all of humanity and willingness to see all biological lifeforms die will say "Oh, but he helped do something nice for one girl who I like so that makes up for the betrayal and genocide." Of course, because these are characters, the writers can bend them into whatever shape that they want to and it may indeed be that in a future episode Charly does come to forgive Isaac. I'm just saying it's both unrealistic for it to actually happen, and unrealistic for Isaac to think that it would happen at least, based on such a minor contribution to the ship's wellbeing.  Given that they have not forgiven him after his contributions were key to saving the Union, period, I don't see how they are going to move any closer to having a positive opinion of him because he helped Topa.

[Colorado David]

I would agree with Chicago here. The saving of the Union, by scope of sheer numbers of people saved, is one could argue morally greater than a surgery to save (well not save, alter or correct)  one person. So if they don't like him for saving 1000s of people, they won't like him more for saving one person. (Unless you wish to make the argument they know Topa personally, and may not know the 1000s who might have perished.)  

All of which begs the question do they treat him equally as biological life forms? Politely and professionally, sure - but in terms of value of life, I would say IMO they like him, but I doubt he gets the same 'equality' treatment as biologicals. I think since he is perpetual and can be deactivated and reactivated, the sanctity of his life is not given the same importance of we biologicals with our shorter life spans. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't think that Isaac was expected to deactivate, but I could be not remembering Identity correctly. In any event, the way the story was presented, he only decided to switch sides when whichever young Finn was threatened. Any logical calculus about him not fitting in with the Kaylons or acting out of self-preservation did not kick in earlier.

Isaac was deactivated as soon as he completed his mission. The crew took him back into fix him not realizing that there was nothing wrong with him. Isaac’s original mission was to to determine of the Union was worth preserving. They had an it’s us or them belief. That it was impossible for the Kaylons to coexist with biological organisms because they would eventually try and enslave the Kaylon.

While Ed, Kelly and Claire are arguing with the Kaylon leader Isaac is clearly waffling. When asked point blank if the Union is worth preserving he doesn’t respond. He goes along with the takeover but he speaks up on behalf of the crew before he turns. He intervenes and attempts to stop them from killing a crew member. He is reluctant the whole time. Being told to kill Ty is the final thing that causes him to switch sides but there was a lot more characterization involved over those two episodes. Having it be Ty had more weight from a storytelling perspective put I don’t think that he would have killed any of them. 

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Of course, because these are characters, the writers can bend them into whatever shape that they want to and it may indeed be that in a future episode Charly does come to forgive Isaac. I'm just saying it's both unrealistic for it to actually happen, and unrealistic for Isaac to think that it would happen at least, based on such a minor contribution to the ship's wellbeing.  Given that they have not forgiven him after his contributions were key to saving the Union, period, I don't see how they are going to move any closer to having a positive opinion of him because he helped Topa.

I agree with your point. I just don’t think that it being unrealistic if it was real is an issue as far as Isaac’s actions. These characters are living in this unrealistic world where they make stupid choices like rushing a surgery of someone who will be an adult in under a year and risking a war over it. To me that doesn’t mean that Isaac is being emotional. Just that the writing isn’t very well though out. Characters like Isaac are always a problem because they are limited by the skill of the writers and it requires many plot contrivances. So I can’t agree that his reason was transparent BS because I do think the writers really thought that was cold, calculating and accurate logic. I have no doubt that he is probably right. It may not convince Charly since hating Isaac is 80% of her personality at this point but I could see it changing Gordan’s opinion. 

[RevBrett]

So very nice to see Klyden gone. I suspect that a drinking game which involved how often the phrase “Klyden sputters” appears in scripts would result in planetary inebriation. Very much not hoping for a Claire/Isaac resumption, but a couple of episodes behind so that may already be settled.

[Dobian]

On 7/3/2022 at 6:58 AM, shapeshifter said:

I'm not sure if you were mostly just adding a little levity or being serious, @ketose, (or both) but Claire as a robosexual seems like an interesting concept for the writers to develop.

Well it is much more realistic to portray as a kink than a genuine physical attraction to a robot, that is about as robot-looking as it gets.  It would be like if Maureen Robinson had an affair with Robot on Lost in Space.  I can totally get people wanting to get it on with the hosts in Westworld.  But Isaac?  No.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Dobian

[SmithW6079]

While I thought the episode was well done, I find the Moclans and their anti-female society to be as tedious as the Klingons and their "honor above all" society. If we never had another story where they're the primary plot I wouldn't complain.

[Emma9]

On 7/2/2022 at 7:27 PM, Ceindreadh said:

Honestly, maybe the simplest solution would be to just arrange the schedules so that Ensign nudie wouldn't be on shift on any day that they weren't going to be wearing clothing. 

That. Or go with a Clever Manka kind of solution and put some kind of covering on him that wasn't 'technically' clothing but also covered up everything that the other crew would prefer not to see. Could be as simple as a blanket toga or as techy as one of the portable image-holo-generator-things.

~

On 7/3/2022 at 12:48 PM, ketose said:

Given the timing, it seems like Isaac was trying to help Claire the most. He only offered his assistance when Claire was planning to resign her commission and leave the Orville.

Same, and I was expecting that to be at least part of the the 'hidden motivation' he revealed - that if he didn't do the surgery, Claire would, which would mean she'd no longer be around to boost his 'efficiency'.

[Quickbeam]

Every time I see Yaphit, I miss Norm MacDonald more. 
 

This episode drew me back decades to my start in pediatric nursing. It was not at all unusual to see 1-2 babies on the census with “ambiguous genitalia” as the diagnosis. Back then the thinking was to make them all “girls”. Obviously that has proven disastrous in so many cases. 
 

I thought the episode handled it well. 

[edhopper]

It was a very good, thought provoking episode. I want to defend the Admiral, she was right. I will note that she did not say the Union will stop Topa from the procedure, she said she could not allow a Union ship and it's officers from doing it. No matter Topa's feelings, risking losing the Moclans as allies, and thereby losing the War and billions of lives, was not worth the risk. As someone once said, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."

I get what Ed and Kelly said about Topa being in danger going elsewhere, but surely, with all the planets in the Union, they could have found a way. Dr. Finn resigning her commission would be the same as going to another doctor, because she still should not have operated on the Orville.

[rmontro]

On 6/30/2022 at 2:00 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I wonder what it would be like to watch an episode like this and to be opposed to LGBTQ+ rights. Like do you confront your own beliefs or just write it off as Hollywood being woke or do you say "well, that's different, it's totally natural that some people are female"?

I just want to point out that in this scenario, Topa was being restored to her actual biological sex.  This story was cleverly written.

[lucindabelle]

Lol at the Way of this show whenever there’s a concert or a bit of theater it’s always for the 20th century. Last episode there was a scene from the Broadway musical Annie today, when Fordes sings, he sings two songs for the 20th century. Not even the 21st.

That said as someone who sees a lot of Broadway I was pretty disappointed.  Bortus sounds very amateurish, and not like a Broadway singer pretending to be an amateur but like that’s really the best he can do. meh.

I had forgotten the topa backstory so just assumed it was a girl from the get go. The eyes! So wide and pretty. Just sounded like a girl with a deep voice.

after the surgery they took off whatever they’d put on her face to make her jaw wider, and her chin was all pointy, and she spoke in her normal register. Such a pretty girl.

that said I found this a bit heavy handed overall. I enjoyed it but OG Star Trek and Kirk himself wouldn’t have put an alliance in jeopardy this way…especially when he/she could have waited.

oh! I was so SURE Claire was going to tell Isaac “you’re the most honest man I know- and a terrible liar.”

cuz he SO did it for Topa.

[anna0852]

This episode was so well done! We're supposed to hate Klyden but the writers/actor/director were masterful in showing that however misguided he does love his child and more than anything is reacting to his own untreated mental health issues. The clincher for me was the worry when Topa didn't show for their game at the simulator. And then when Topa confronted her parents, it was evident that he really and truly believes that the gender surgery corrected a genuine defect, that he was desperately trying to give his child a good life.

What could have been such a black-and-white storyline did a masterful job of introducing shades of grey.