S03.E01: Electric Sheep

[SmithW6079]

When Charley was whining about her dead superior officer and complaining that Isaac's sacrifice meant nothing, why didn't Ed point out that her superior officer sacrificed her life for Charley? So people do put others above their own survival.

Also, I couldn't help but think what a poor ship design it was that a stuck life pod had to be manually launched from inside the ship. That guarantees someone dies while trying to escape. 

this is way better than anything Trek is putting out right now.

Star Trek: Strange New Worlds would like to have a word.

I was planning to get Paramount+ for SNW,  but the more I read episode summaries, the more I'm disappointed. The use of TOS legacy characters (Uhura, Chapel,  M'Benga) and the dismantling already of canon (a Khan Noonien Singh descendant) just strikes me as lazy on the part of the writers. Introduce new characters, not rely on existing characterizations.

I'll stick to The Orville for my Trek fix.

Edited June 5, 2022 by SmithW6079

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, SmithW6079 said:

When Charley was whining about her dead superior officer and complaining that Isaac's sacrifice meant nothing, why didn't Ed point out that her superior officer sacrificed her life for Charley? So people do put others above their own survival.

Also, I couldn't help but think what a poor ship design it was that a stuck life pod had to be manually launched from inside the ship. That guarantees someone dies while trying to escape. 

I was planning to get Paramount+ for SNW,  but the more I read episode summaries, the more I'm disappointed. The use of TOS legacy characters (Uhura, Chapel,  M'Benga) and the dismantling already of canon (a Khan Noonien Singh descendant) just strikes me as lazy on the part of the writers. Introduce new characters, not rely on existing characterizations.

I'll stick to The Orville for my Trek fix.

I get the overall point, but canon (if we're talking broadcast materials, anyway) is silent on whether Khan had any descendants. All we know about his backstory, really is from Space Seed, that he and his followers fled Earth in a cryoship after having gained control of much of the planet and having their conquest foiled. It's entirely possible that he left some kids behind, or that his genetic material was used to create kids.

[Welshman in Ca]

17 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

That's missing the point, in my opinion. Seth has repeatedly said that this was never supposed to be a laugh-out-loud comedy like Family Guy. It was a gross miscalculation on FOX's part to market it as such. As he put it, he had always intended for it to be a "sci-fi/drama cake with comedy frosting," although I would say that it's really more of a comedy ganache.He means for it to be an homage to Star Trek: The Next Generation in particular, not a parody of it. That's why he's been gradually toning down the overt comedy (something that he started doing in Season 2), and now that Hulu has given him the freedom to tell stories on a more adult level than he could on FOX, he's deliberately amping up the sci-fi and drama and giving the comedy a more subtle, natural, and organic role as opposed to making the whole show a constant yukfest that overrelies on the sort of puerile toilet humor that most of us outgrew by the time we'd finished puberty. I, for one, applaud him for the new direction he's taken the show in.

I get what you're saying but I like at least some frosting on my cake, this was all cake, and not a well baked cake.

[iMonrey]

It's been so long since this show was on I couldn't really remember how much I liked it. I wasn't especially motivated to re-watch the first two seasons, so I wasn't sure how I would react to this new episode. 

Basically, I didn't care much for it. There has been a deliberate effort to make the show more serious and I don't think that's a good direction for it. This episode in particular leaned way too heavily into the morose. Learning that Seth is dating the actress playing Charly made me dislike it even more. Way too much screen time for a new character and now we know why.

I also don't know that stretching the run time past 43 minutes is good for this show. It felt like there was an awful lot of filler and I concur with those who found the music overwhelming and inappropriate at times.

Quote

That's missing the point, in my opinion. Seth has repeatedly said that this was never supposed to be a laugh-out-loud comedy like Family Guy. It was a gross miscalculation on FOX's part to market it as such. As he put it, he had always intended for it to be a "sci-fi/drama cake with comedy frosting," although I would say that it's really more of a comedy ganache.He means for it to be an homage to Star Trek: The Next Generation in particular, not a parody of it. That's why he's been gradually toning down the overt comedy (something that he started doing in Season 2), and now that Hulu has given him the freedom to tell stories on a more adult level than he could on FOX, he's deliberately amping up the sci-fi and drama and giving the comedy a more subtle, natural, and organic role as opposed to making the whole show a constant yukfest that overrelies on the sort of puerile toilet humor that most of us outgrew by the time we'd finished puberty. I, for one, applaud him for the new direction he's taken the show in.

Well, I think that is the point. A lot of fans liked the lighter tone and the comedic elements. As the show gets darker and darker those fans will like the show less and less. I get that it's a choice and that Seth wants it to be more serious but not everyone wants the show to be that. It's sort of a bait-and-switch when you fall in love with a show for a particular reason and they eventually take that reason away.

[DoctorAtomic]

Given the show picked up right after the robot war, I think the tone was appropriate. When the ship gets back to regular missions, the show could lighten up. Seth also wrote this one. He doesn't always write the episodes. I commend the narrative choice because they could have easily done a time jump and not dealt with any of these issues. The episode was unique because there wasn't really a B plot. 

The show was never whacky in the first place. They did a good job with injecting the humor organically into the story, and I don't see why they wouldn't want some of that going forward. I would like to see taking advantage of the extra run time for more character building. 

[cmahorror]

I enjoyed the first episode back but I do hope for some more lighthearted moments in future episodes. They needed to address the reality that many of the crew would be mad that Isaac was allowed to serve again, seemingly with no repercussions from his actions. Charley is our gateway character for that and I really did not have any problem with her. She was mad and had no problem expressing that. I thought the actress did fine with the material she was given and I bought that she would bring Isaac back to help relieve the boy of his guilt. She is hurting and doesn't want someone else to hurt if she can help them. Makes sense to me but YMMV. 

Isaac was a traitor to his crew and his inaction caused deaths - there is no getting around this. Because he is a robot and has no emotions, he can feel no regret or pain for what he did. That is one of the big reasons people seemed to have an issue with him - that he has no way of understanding just how devastating the attack and his part in it was to the feeling members of the crew. To him, it was just another day. To them it was a day that changed their entire lives and most of them for the worse. Isaac's inability to understand or comprehend this and his being able to still walk around like nothing happened is an open wound that is constantly getting salt poured into it - it will never heal as long as he is there. I like Isaac but they took him to the point of no return in the last season and no amount of whitewashing is going to change that.

Edited June 5, 2022 by cmahorror

[DoctorAtomic]

3 minutes ago, cmahorror said:

They needed to address the reality that many of the crew would be mad that Isaac was allowed to serve again, seemingly with no repercussions from his actions.

Whose call would it have been to reinstate Isaac? It would have to be way higher up than Ed. I would assume Ed made the call for Isaac to resume his position on the ship, but I'm thinking Admiral Ted Danson and them would be making the decision on his place as a Union officer. 

[kay1864]

16 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

what a poor ship design it was that a stuck life pod had to be manually launched from inside the ship.

Exactly! The pod should have had a long-handled wrench or something, for those situations.

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Welshman in Ca said:

I get what you're saying but I like at least some frosting on my cake, this was all cake, and not a well baked cake.

This is a really good way of putting it. I don’t mind shows going in a more serious direction but here it felt like that tone change accentuated the shows other issues.

It doesn’t help that they sidelined some of the best characters. The lack of Bortus particularly stood out but Kelly was also wasted here. Overall the show felt really off balance. 

[Yeah No]

3 hours ago, Dani said:

This is a really good way of putting it. I don’t mind shows going in a more serious direction but here it felt like that tone change accentuated that shows other issues.

It doesn’t help that they sidelined some of the best characters. The lack of Bortus particularly stood out but Kelly was also wasted her. Overall the show felt really off balance. 

I agree and here's another analogy - This episode was like when you fiddle with the bass and treble settings on your stereo.  The first two seasons were pegging the meter all the way over on the treble side while this episode was pegged all the way over on the bass.  I think few people like a sound that's too treble or bass and most of us would rather have more of a blend and balance of the extremes.

I feel like this is yet another example of everything these days being about extremes in just about every area of life.  Why can't anyone find the "happy medium" with anything anymore?  Too much comedy?  OK, next time we'll make the show dour, sour, gloomy and draggy.  Yeah, that's a solution!  NOT!  It's way too heavy handed.  What are people thinking anymore?  

[vibeology]

On 6/2/2022 at 9:33 PM, Dani said:

Eta: While watching the show I found myself wondering if Seth was dating the actress that plays Charly because something in how she was treated reminded me a lot of how Alara was treated in the pilot. A quick google search confirmed that they are dating and it just makes me feel icky. 

Of course he is. Seth does seem to consistently be a creep that way. Half your age plus 7, Seth and not your employees.

19 hours ago, cmahorror said:

Isaac was a traitor to his crew and his inaction caused deaths - there is no getting around this. Because he is a robot and has no emotions, he can feel no regret or pain for what he did. That is one of the big reasons people seemed to have an issue with him - that he has no way of understanding just how devastating the attack and his part in it was to the feeling members of the crew. To him, it was just another day. To them it was a day that changed their entire lives and most of them for the worse. Isaac's inability to understand or comprehend this and his being able to still walk around like nothing happened is an open wound that is constantly getting salt poured into it - it will never heal as long as he is there. I like Isaac but they took him to the point of no return in the last season and no amount of whitewashing is going to change that.

This reminded me of the scene where I was most on-board with the anti-Isaac faction. Claire brings Isaac in to talk to Marcus and Isaac says something along the lines of "I'm sorry and now that I've said I'm sorry you have to forgive me." It's not just a lack of emotions; it's a total lack of understanding that other people do have emotions about what happened. You don't have to feel remorse or guilt to understand that other people need time to process what occurred. I was horrified in that moment. 

[Ottis]

On 6/2/2022 at 2:50 PM, tennisgurl said:

Instead of jumping head first into action and seeing what the next big story would be

Actually, we did jump head first into the action with a very long space battle - which was meaningless without context and became boring - but we then learned it was a dream. I remember thinking, though, that someone wanted to grab the audience's attention with a massive special effects fest right from the get go.

On 6/2/2022 at 6:22 PM, phalange said:

The pteradon (?) fighter jet that Gordon drove looks pretty cool

Did they ever say what the point of that ship was? 

On 6/2/2022 at 7:33 PM, Dani said:

Eta: While watching the show I found myself wondering if Seth was dating the actress that plays Charly because something in how she was treated reminded me a lot of how Alara was treated in the pilot. A quick google search confirmed that they are dating and it just makes me feel icky. 

Ugh. That is incredible, that he did that *again.* I said it in season one and I still feel this way: Seth casting himself was a terrible choice. He is the weak link as an actor, often coming across as swarmy. And repeatedly casting women he is dating, too ... together this adds up to a vanity project that sometimes works as a Galaxy Quest-like parody but insists on trying to be "serious" and when it does so comes across as amateurish.

On 6/4/2022 at 2:28 PM, Joimiaroxeu said:

this is way better than anything Trek is putting out right now.

YMMV, I guess. I'd put Orville 3rd, after SNW and Discovery. Picard has been horrific. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 6/5/2022 at 1:52 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

Whose call would it have been to reinstate Isaac? It would have to be way higher up than Ed. I would assume Ed made the call for Isaac to resume his position on the ship, but I'm thinking Admiral Ted Danson and them would be making the decision on his place as a Union officer. 

It's been a long time since S2, but I want to say that Ed had a discussion with an admiral (I lean toward thinking it was Victor Garber's character rather than Danson's or Kelly Hu's but it could have been any of the above or even someone else) where the admiral basically deferred to Ed on whether to reinstate him.

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

Did they ever say what the point of that ship was? 

They didn't. I suppose there could be a need for a potentially stealthy, speedy, more maneuverable single-person fighter that the main ship or its shuttles can't fulfill. I'm sure it won't be too long before there's an episode where it's like "Thank goodness we have the Pteradon." 

[Joimiaroxeu]

4 hours ago, Ottis said:

YMMV, I guess. I'd put Orville 3rd, after SNW and Discovery. Picard has been horrific. 

You misquoted. I didn't make that statement you replied to.

[Ottis]

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

You misquoted. I didn't make that statement you replied to.

No, you didn't, but I pulled it out of your post because I couldn't find the original post. Apologies.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Seth casting himself was a terrible choice. He is the weak link as an actor, often coming across as smarmy. And repeatedly casting women he is dating, too ... together this adds up to a vanity project that sometimes works as a Galaxy Quest-like parody but insists on trying to be "serious" and when it does so comes across as amateurish.

I agree. I don't think this show works very well as straight drama given its beginnings, its cast, and its backdrop. It all seems to be framed as parody and then tries to be serious. I agree Seth as captain is a big part of that problem, it's hard to see him as a dramatic actor. There's just something about his face. Malloy doesn't really work as a serious character either. Yaphit is just plain silly. I'm sure Star Trek could have pulled off some sort of Yaphit-like character but the way Yaphit was introduced and has been used reeks of comedy. 

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 6/3/2022 at 11:34 PM, kay1864 said:

- Engineering now has a Galaxy Quest beryllium sphere!

- Anyone else noticed that Isaac’s costume has changed?

Because I can be a bit of a lecherous old broad, I mostly noticed, and was rather disappointed, that they changed the back of his costume from being rather close-fitting metallic, but still actually soft fabric pants that nicely outlined his little tush to something a bit more industrial. Ahem. Carry on.

Because, as luck would have it, I just started watching this show in the past week or so, and basically binged the first two seasons, I had no gap at all between the old incarnation and this one, and I have to say that the difference is rather stark, and I'm not liking the whole tone nearly as much. Hopefully they find a better balance as the season goes on.

As others have said, there is just way too much focus on the technology and action, which is my least favorite part of most movies and shows of the past decade or two. And the fact that they seem to be taking themselves so much more seriously is off-putting and ruins that intimacy and feeling that you were part of an in-joke that the first (and, though to a slightly lesser extent the second) seasons had. Again, I hope that they can find a balance, but if I was just checking the show out for the first time, and this was the first episode I'd seen, I would feel no great reason to keep watching. 

Because I have become quite fond of it, I'll check out a few more episodes to see whether the tone changes. But if it doesn't, I doubt I'll continue.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Jynnan tonnix

[RedHawk]

On 6/7/2022 at 3:50 PM, Jynnan tonnix said:

As others have said, there is just way too much focus on the technology and action, which is my least favorite part of most movies and shows of the past decade or two. And the fact that they seem to be taking themselves so much more seriously is off-putting and ruins that intimacy and feeling that you were part of an in-joke that the first (and, though to a slightly lesser extent the second) seasons had. Again, I hope that they can find a balance, but if I was just checking the show out for the first time, and this was the first episode I'd seen, I would feel no great reason to keep watching. 

Because I have become quite fond of it, I'll check out a few more episodes to see whether the tone changes. But if it doesn't, I doubt I'll continue.

I tuned in to the first season after a few episodes had aired thinking it would be mostly a "Galaxy Quest"-style parody. I quickly caught up after being pleasantly surprised that it was a blend of goofy comedy and space drama. I knew it was supposed to be set more than a century after the original ST and ST:TNG but I liked thinking it was the early days of Earthlings in space, before the Federation, and it made total sense that the crew at times were goofy and awkward and a bit militarily unprofessional.

In later episodes they amped up the action and drama without giving up the comedy and I happily followed along, becoming a big fan. Not sure where this is going now, but I'm not excited by more of the techy action either, and although I enjoy the great look of the show, I thought they did a fine job in S1 and S2. We're all at the mercy of Seth and I hope he doesn't over-reach and spoil it.

Edited June 9, 2022 by RedHawk

[Ottis]

After 4 tries, I finally made it through this ep. It was bad. The actress playing Charley wasn’t very good. Way too much of the doc’s kids. And then the weird, blaring music and spaceship porn that came out of nowhere. Also, now that we have SNW, Orville suffers by comparison. 

[chaifan]

After starting this season I decided to do a re-watch of Season 2.  There was almost no post-Krill Kaylon animosity towards Isaac in Season 2.  There was brief discussion among the main cast, then the decision to reanimate him, and then he was back on the bridge.  Then 2 or 3 more episodes with not a peep said about Isaac betraying the Orville crew, humankind and every bio-species in the universe.  So the full on Isaac hate that started Season 3 seems a bit of a ret-con. 

As for Charley, I'm not familiar with the actress and don't care a bit about her relationship with SMcF.  I just think the character is horrible, and seems shoehorned into an already well-meshed cast.  Talla was incorporated seamlessly in Season 2, so we know it can be done.  It just wasn't done well with Charley. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by chaifan
corrected Krill to Kaylon

[AmigaJoe]

On 6/2/2022 at 2:28 AM, MSterling said:

I'm not a big fan of Charly at this point. The episode looks very nice, but it was almost too much "Look at all this production value!" with the battle scenes.

It was nice seeing Yaphit in the space suit.

And it's good to see the show back.

Why is it when I first saw all the solo shots of her, did I immediately thought- 'Seth's gotta be hitting that'...

Edited July 2, 2022 by AmigaJoe

[Dobian]

This show painted itself into a corner with Isaac in season 2, turning him into a mass-murdering war criminal.  It essentially wrecked the character, and they had to address it at the start of season 3.  The problem is, the writers had to bend over backwards on the forgiveness arc for the sake of keeping this character on the show, which was very unrealistic.  First of all, it wouldn't have been up to the captain of the Orville.  Isaac would have been brought up on war crimes charges and shipped off to whatever prison to await trial.  He certainly never would have been allowed to serve on a ship again, even if he somehow miraculously beat the charges.  The whole argument that he switched sides and helped the humans defeat the Kaylons doesn't remove his accountability.  He still has blood on his hands.

Isaac committing suicide was the only way the writers could achieve some sort of character reset, and I don't think it works.  I only started watching this season, and I'm guessing they are going to have the characters develop amnesia to the horrors of season 2, and welcome good ol' Isaac back into their adventures.  Except for Gordon, who I guess will come around after a while.  And maybe a side plot where Charly sees that Isaac isn't such a bad guy after all.  Which would ring false.  I know if I was made to work with someone who I knew was responsible for my friends and colleagues getting blown up, that would be an irreconcilable issue.  That's the problem when you take a character too far down the villainy path.  Now if they had ended with Ed's eulogy then the resolution would have worked.  Though it would have meant no more Isaac.  But they wanted to keep Isaac as a character on the show, and are resorting to some emotional manipulation with the suicide to make it happen.  Isaac going on trial would have been a more authentic path, but the writers don't want to go in that direction.  So he gets several thousand people killed and says he's sorry, and the others have to forgive him.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Dobian

[Chicago Redshirt]

I don't even know if Isaac has ever actually said he regrets his actions or wished he took different ones.

I don't think he is capable of the emotion of regret.

They have implied that what turned him around was that he didn't want to be complicit in the murder of Ty in cold-blood, but I don't know if they have sufficiently explored the internal logic behind his heel-face turn.

[Emma9]

On 6/3/2022 at 5:58 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

He was 100 percent down with the "Kill the meatbags" agenda, and was cool with the takeover of the Orville and his crewmates being killed. Thank Avis he had boned Claire and bonded some with her kids, or else he probably wouldn't have switched sides.

'Probably' nothing, the whole "What if Kelly hadn't boned Ed" AU episode was entirely based on literally that.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Emma9

[Morrigan2575]

Finally watching S3, thankfully it's on D+ now. I'm glad they addressed the fact that it didn't all go back to normal with Issac. Some may have forgiven him but, there are many who can't/won't. 

The anti-suicide message was a little heavy handed.  I wish they would have been a little less blunt with the message  

[aemom]

I was wondering why Halston Sage left The Orville, but hearing now, that he is daing Anne Winters, who plays Charly, I cannot help but wonder, if she was dropped from the show because they split up?

MacFarlane is a talented man, but this whole bit of dating your much-younger employees is really gross to me and puts a whole tarnish on my liking him.

It also seemed that in many scenes, they were trying to have some distance between actors - likely Covid protocols. 

I wonder how they will handle Yaphit as well.

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 9/2/2022 at 11:44 PM, aemom said:

I wonder how they will handle Yaphit as well.

I would imagine it would be easy enough to cast another voice actor for Yaphit. I've never found Norm Macdonald to have a distinctive enough voice that I'd really notice the difference, though (I'm sure mileages vary here), and Yaphit's role was pretty peripheral most of the time. I don't know that they'd be looking for someone to really mimic the voice, or just find someone with a similar sort of vibe. Heck, Seth could probably voice Yaphit himself.

[DoctorAtomic]

David Spade can do a Norm-adjacent voice. 

[Bort]

Or they could just have a couple lines of dialogue about Yaphit having to go back to his home gelatinous mass.

On 9/2/2022 at 10:44 PM, aemom said:

I was wondering why Halston Sage left The Orville, but hearing now, that he is daing Anne Winters, who plays Charly, I cannot help but wonder, if she was dropped from the show because they split up?

Halston Sage left to take a role on Prodigal Son. Now, did they break up first or did her leaving precipitate the breakup, I don’t know.

[aemom]

35 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

Or they could just have a couple lines of dialogue about Yaphit having to go back to his home gelatinous mass.

Halston Sage left to take a role on Prodigal Son. Now, did they break up first or did her leaving precipitate the breakup, I don’t know.

Stuff that I read seemed to imply that she was not leaving by choice. :(

[Bort]

21 minutes ago, aemom said:

Stuff that I read seemed to imply that she was not leaving by choice. :(

She ended up on Prodigal Son almost immediately so I had assumed that’s why she left but yeah, I just did a little googling and it seems like she was ousted. So ok then, they broke up and she was out. Reason #1 as to why you shouldn’t date your boss. 

[basil]

Quote

what a poor ship design it was that a stuck life pod had to be manually launched from inside the ship.

Quote

Exactly! The pod should have had a long-handled wrench or something, for those situations.

Or, y'know, a ten second delay before the door closes?

[Deskisamess]

On 6/3/2022 at 9:02 PM, Affogato said:

Apparently she is dating Seth. I don't think the show needed another character at this time, really, since they probably won't get the group together for another season.

By the way, I do like an 'angry bitch'. If someone is called an 'angry bitch' it is usually because they are challenging the norm and making someone uncomfortable. I may not always agree with them, but I like them for it. So, someone likes an 'angry bitch'.

Geez, he's almost 20 years older than she is. 
This epi was a yawn. 

[Deskisamess]

On 6/7/2022 at 11:54 AM, iMonrey said:

I agree. I don't think this show works very well as straight drama given its beginnings, its cast, and its backdrop. It all seems to be framed as parody and then tries to be serious. I agree Seth as captain is a big part of that problem, it's hard to see him as a dramatic actor. There's just something about his face. Malloy doesn't really work as a serious character either. Yaphit is just plain silly. I'm sure Star Trek could have pulled off some sort of Yaphit-like character but the way Yaphit was introduced and has been used reeks of comedy. 

Malloy will always be the doctor smoking pot who is responsible for doctor Romano having a helicopter dropped on him. (From ER many moons ago)

[rmontro]

The special effects bit with the Pteradon just struck me as a way to appeal to nerds (wow, what a cool ship), or a way to sell toys to kids.  Although I'm not aware of any such toy, so maybe I'm wrong.  

I don't dislike the Charly character.  I thought her reactions seemed natural, and even Mercer said she could be right that Isaac still posed a threat.  Anyway, it was more interesting to me that she changed her mind about not helping Isaac, then if she had just been on board with the viewer's perspective to begin with.

[Raja]

On 6/6/2022 at 10:33 AM, Ottis said:

Did they ever say what the point of that ship was? 

As a Trek homage they were introducing their version of Voyager's Delta Flyer. I'm assuming its coming later. Without large use of transporter and depending upon shuttles, an "escort", what Defiant of DS9 was billed as in her opening, can see a use.

Seen a year later than the ship porn scenes plays like the opening to Star Trek The Motion Picture, with a longer than anticipated hiatus due to network changes and COVID we had that extended welcome back scenes, However the Orville is not the Enterprise with the Trekkies long waiting for more, even if we are used to new content coming at a more furious pace than 70's fans