S04.E07: Chapter Seven: The Massacre at Hawkins Lab

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, Redrum said:

This. You put it so much better than I did. There's two episodes left. Nothing relevant to the storyline involves Will coming out of the closet except scoring points in diversity. 

And this. "Oh look the kid we've had called a fag by his dad in season one REALLY IS GAY"

This. Doing a rewatch of season one right now and Steve is a grade A asshole at times but he also really seemed in love with Nancy even though he didn't really understand his feelings.

I do think Nancy and Jonathan were a genuine couple but I think he realistically understood that the distance and college was killing the relationship. I hate the dope thing this season.

First of all, we don't know what might be relevant to the storyline.

Second, it's not all about the plot. It's also about characterization. As has been discussed by other posters, the possibility of Will being gay has been part of his character from the jump. Seeing how that part of his character progresses is as important to the creators as any of the various heterosexual pairings and triangles there have been. I'm assuming that the writers aren't having a scoreboard for "points in diversity" in the way that you're saying. But even if they were, so what? It's their creation. They can make it as diverse or non-diverse as they want.

2 hours ago, MamaGee said:

What annoys me is they already have a gay character. 

Imagine if someone said, "What annoys me is they already have a heterosexual character" or "What annoys me is they already have a black character." 

[HelloooKitty]

On 5/28/2022 at 8:27 PM, Blue Plastic said:

  Why are/were there so many telekinetic kids around for Brenner to get his hands on?

This is kind of explained in the 1st companion novel. He was conducting experiments on persons of all ages originally. One of them was El’s mom. He gave them drug concoctions to try and help elevate their seemingly dormant psychic abilities. He discovered that young children responded best and were most mailable. So, when it was is discovered  that El’s mom was pregnant and had been while the experiments were going on, “papa” made plans to take the baby at birth as he felt her potential would be tremendous. 

[HelloooKitty]

On 5/29/2022 at 6:38 PM, overtherainbow said:

That would be quite a twist if he actually ends up being El's biological father, but it would make sense seeing as they both about match each other in terms of power

That would be a MAJOR retcon as the first companion novel makes it clear who her father is. 

[Dev F]

4 hours ago, steelyis said:

I'd feel a hundred percent better about Will and his possible queerness if the show did something tangible with it. I understand the series takes place during a period in American history when being anything other than straight would be a serious and dangerous issue for Will to deal with, but all this... pussy-footing, if you'll pardon the expression, is frustrating. It feels cynical and queerbait-y. A way for the creators to say: "Hey, we have a kinda sorta maybe gay kid (who we don't actually showcase all that much lately) as a main character! Aren't we inclusive?"

I would argue that at this point Will's storyline is meaningfully centered around the fact that he's queer, to the point that I would actually struggle to make sense of his season 3 arc at all without the gay subtext that connects his personal story to the sci-fi story. That is, over the course of the first few episodes of S3, he goes from A) denying the darkness in his past by insisting that he's just a carefree kid who wants to play D&D, to B) getting into a jealous fight with Mike that ends with Mike snapping "It's not my fault you don't like girls!" to C) realizing his childhood fantasy is "so stupid" and literally beating it to splinters with a bat, so that he's finally able to admit that the Mind Flayer is back and warn his friends.

The only way that A leads to B leads to C is if the confrontation in B somehow snaps him out of the childish delusion in A. And as far as I can tell, the only way that works is if "I'm not going to fall in love" is part of that delusion—if what he's covering up is not just the fact that the Mind Flayer is back but also the fact that he's gay and has a crush on his best friend, and Mike snapping him out of the latter delusion also snaps him out of the former.

Which is how Will gets to where he is this season: out to himself about his feelings but agonizing over how/whether to confess them to Mike.

Now, if you want to argue that Will's storyline should've gone somewhere else post-self-acceptance, I'm not sure I disagree with you. (I expected a very different story for Will/Mike/El this season: for them to reverse the triangle, showing Will and El as surprisingly well-adjusted, simpatico siblings who giggle over their normal teen adventures, while Mike, who's always recoiled at normalcy and was drawn to both of them because they were damaged weirdos, worries that he's losing the two most important people in his life to each other.) But it's hard to judge the writers' chosen alternative without knowing where it's going, and regardless of whether it ends up being any good, it's still a question of how the series chooses to portray a queer Will Byers, not whether they should portray him as queer at all, which I think is a long-since-settled question.

3 hours ago, MamaGee said:

What annoys me is they already have a gay character. 

Heh, that's kind of how I felt when they introduced Robin. But a part of me suspects that they gave another character an overt coming-out story as a dry run for Will's story, and maybe as a way to demonstrate to Noah Schnapp and his people that they could be more overt about the character's sexuality without alienating fans.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Dev F

[steelyis]

4 minutes ago, Racj82 said:

We've literally not seen any of the kids hooking up this season. Straight or gay. They aren't teasing you. They aren't queer bating. There is no time to to delve into it right now. So, they are giving little sprinkles of where EVERYONE is at romantically without having full plots about it. 

Also, they are characters. They don't need to "do anything gay" to define their sexuality. We still don't know what or how actually Will is actually feeling to put expectations on it and Robin is very much a main character. She's a part of the main cast and the main group. Her not being there from the beginning or whatever doesn't exclude that. 

I can see an issue with teasing out Will's possible feelings for Mike for too long. But, that is all I care about. Will hasn't had much character progression period. Whether or not he comes out, kisses a boy or anything of that nature is secondary to me. I want to see Will come out of his shell. I feel like he's been trapped one way or another since season 1 episode 1.

We certainly saw a lot of it last season though, didn't we? And there's the rub--no pun intended. We saw Mike and El, Lucas and Max, and Jon and Nancy in relationships; being couples. They had intimate moments together, and were allowed to openly express their feelings. What has Will gotten so far? What has Robin?

Dust.

Stranger Things is very clearly hetero-normative, and seems uncomfortable with showing anything different. It uses the implication of queerness to score brownie points, and it's becoming obvious they don't intend to change that any time soon. I personally don't care to see any of the kids involved in romantic scenes. The older I get less I want to watch a bunch of fetuses make out, but I'm not going to let the show pat itself on the back for inclusiveness when they've been shying away from putting in on the screen so far.

The show may take place in the eighties, but it's 2022 now, that's not going to fly anymore.

3 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Robin did an excellent job of explaining why this isn't happening early in this season. She knows what the stakes and consequences are if she comes out to the wrong person and makes a move that isn't reciprocated. Her life will be miserable and she doesn't want to risk it. This is from someone who has her sexuality figured out. I'm not sure if Will knows what he is yet. 

Last season, I thought Will was not yet interested in girls, because not everyone starts being interested in dating and romantic partners the same time. This season, when I saw Will pull away from the girl playing footsie with him, I started to wonder if he might be gay after all. It's still possible he wasn't interested in her specifically, but it made me wonder. 

That's all well and good story-wise, but it doesn't alleviate the real world problems the show has with showing gay people do more than talk about being gay and aim longing, suggestive looks that won't lead anywhere.

I love this show, and I would enjoy it if the gang just went around fighting demons and generally being awesome together. I would literally be okay if the kids didn't date until they're in college. But I can do without the apparent queer-baiting. That's all I'm saying.

[HelloooKitty]

Here’s my theory:

the upside down already existed as some sort of alternate, monster dimension possibly ruled by the mind flayer. 11 made an opening/gate that reached there and pushed 1 through. Once 1 was there, he begin to use his powers to shape that world into the world he remembered- his house, Hawkins- but they are all twisted and broken versions. Hawkins exists on a thin spot and thus the created upside down Hawkins is able to change and update itself via what leaks through from the real Hawkins. Maybe the world creates creatures and models them on what it hears, like say a d&d game. Maybe 1 is doing the creating. No matter how powerful 1 may be in that world, the “vines” connecting him seem to imply ( to me at least) that he is not in complete control of himself or the upside down. 
 

11 grows more powerful, the experiments being conducted continue to rub against that already thin fabric of reality. Eventual a full tear/gate is formed. Enter season one. When 11 closed that first gate, she damaged the upside down. It was no longer able to change and grow- thus it being stuck in ‘83. 
 

Every gate that is closed damages the upside down. No wonder the mind flayer is so desperate to get out! And now it’s running out of gates to do so! (Seasons 2-3)

as the henchmen are done away with and the gates sealed off the mindflayer is stepping up its offense. If our intrepid gang can stay enough steps ahead they may be able to seal it away for good.  

[Racj82]

1 hour ago, steelyis said:

We certainly saw a lot of it last season though, didn't we? And there's the rub--no pun intended. We saw Mike and El, Lucas and Max, and Jon and Nancy in relationships; being couples. They had intimate moments together, and were allowed to openly express their feelings. What has Will gotten so far? What has Robin?

Dust.

Stranger Things is very clearly hetero-normative, and seems uncomfortable with showing anything different. It uses the implication of queerness to score brownie points, and it's becoming obvious they don't intend to change that any time soon. I personally don't care to see any of the kids involved in romantic scenes. The older I get less I want to watch a bunch of fetuses make out, but I'm not going to let the show pat itself on the back for inclusiveness when they've been shying away from putting in on the screen so far.

The show may take place in the eighties, but it's 2022 now, that's not going to fly anymore.

That's all well and good story-wise, but it doesn't alleviate the real world problems the show has with showing gay people do more than talk about being gay and aim longing, suggestive looks that won't lead anywhere.

I love this show, and I would enjoy it if the gang just went around fighting demons and generally being awesome together. I would literally be okay if the kids didn't date until they're in college. But I can do without the apparent queer-baiting. That's all I'm saying.

Yes, I understand everything you've said and have disagreed with all of it. Agree to disagree. It's all good.

I challenge the Duffer Brothers to, in the final season, have a whole season where our central characters are all in the same place. They don't literally have to be in the same room at all times. But, I don't want the parents here, half the kids there, etc. Especially coming up on the end. I get why they dole out the plots this way. But, group dynamics are the most important part of the show. 

I try to never crap on child actors but the actress playing Erica is not good at this acting thing. Not the worst but her line delivery is often just poor. She was perfect as the typical annoying little sister in the background but I think she's exposed as a part of the team. Watch that scene with her against the head jock from a few episodes back they had to ADR the hell out of her to get that scene right and it still didn't sound correct.

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, steelyis said:

We certainly saw a lot of it last season though, didn't we? And there's the rub--no pun intended. We saw Mike and El, Lucas and Max, and Jon and Nancy in relationships; being couples. They had intimate moments together, and were allowed to openly express their feelings. What has Will gotten so far? What has Robin?

Dust.

Robin has feelings for her bandmate, but is scared to explore them for fear of rejection and fear that she will be exposed in her small town as a lesbian. Will presumably has feelings for Mike, who he knows does not have romantic feelings for him, and is afraid that he will lose his best friend if he tries to make a move. 

These are things that are perfectly understandable in 2022, let alone 1986 when it was far less publicly acceptable to be gay. 

Mileage may vary, but I find it more realistic that Will and Robin are slow starting up their relationships than Lucas and Max were able to date with relatively little static other than from Billy. 

[Dev F]

2 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Robin has feelings for her bandmate, but is scared to explore them for fear of rejection and fear that she will be exposed in her small town as a lesbian. Will presumably has feelings for Mike, who he knows does not have romantic feelings for him, and is afraid that he will lose his best friend if he tries to make a move.

Yeah, I woke up this morning with the realization that this is probably how the whole Will/Mike/El storyline is going to fit together: Just as Will has been reluctant to confess his feelings to Mike for fear of how he'll respond, perhaps Mike has been reluctant to declare his love for El because he doesn't feel worthy of a "superhero" girlfriend. And when Will finally opens up about his crush, Mike will assure him that it doesn't make him feel any different about him and it'll bring them closer together—and this will help Mike realize that his fears are also misplaced and give him the courage to open up to El about his love for her in turn.

Now, if that is what we're headed toward, I've got pretty mixed feelings about it. Philosophically, I don't love the idea that a gay character's story might be just the grist for the mill of a straight relationship. And narratively, it pulls against any justification for Will and El starting the season as such sadsacks, since giving them happy lives in California that Mike feels disconnected from seems like better setup for that sort of triangle of alienation (and would also make Will's queerness less of a means to an end, if he's otherwise well-adjusted and happy being out to himself and only anxious where his feelings for Mike are concerned).

But it all fits together logically in a way only one other possibility I can think of really does. And that possibility, that Mike hasn't expressed his love for El because he's struggling with his own sexuality, has always seemed unlikely to me despite the fervent (and sometimes surprisingly cogent) arguments of the Will/Mike shippers, just because I've always read Mike's arc as being more about his struggle with a fear of being ordinary than any sexual identity issues.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I think it's interesting that we have some people criticizing the show for not doing enough - they need to show Robin and Will being "gay" - and too much - they already have a gay character, they don't need another. 

I'm in the camp that from the beginning, Will's story has been about his feeling alienated because he recognizes he's "different" and that, in a lot of ways, his experience trapped in the Upside Down is a metaphor for being gay.

I'm straight, so I can't speak for what it was like to be a member of the LGBTQ+ community in the 80s. But by 1986, HIV/AIDS was very much known and there was a lot of hysteria about it, especially directed towards the LGBTQ+ community (very much like the Satanic Panic in the show. I imagine they want us to draw a parallel). Robin is unfortunately correct IMO that her being very public about being a lesbian would make her the town pariah.

Now, it's a show about supernatural demons, so they can do anything they like in terms of realism, etc. And it would be nice if Robin and Will could be shown having relationships in the same way as the straight characters. I think that they could have possibly made that work with Robin, since we don't know as much about her and her crush because they are newer characters. So that's possibly a failure of imagination on the writers' parts. But I also think that the show is not wrong in acknowledging how strong the homophobia was during this era. In fact, I would say that the show is under-selling it. It was really a terrible time period for the LGBTQ+ community. 

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Robin has feelings for her bandmate, but is scared to explore them for fear of rejection and fear that she will be exposed in her small town as a lesbian. Will presumably has feelings for Mike, who he knows does not have romantic feelings for him, and is afraid that he will lose his best friend if he tries to make a move. 

These are things that are perfectly understandable in 2022, let alone 1986 when it was far less publicly acceptable to be gay. 

Mileage may vary, but I find it more realistic that Will and Robin are slow starting up their relationships than Lucas and Max were able to date with relatively little static other than from Billy. 

I went to school in the early 80s. Since graduation, several people have come out. One is a very good friend of mine. I remember her having to pretend she had a crush on Steve Perry from Journey. Looking back, I feel so bad that she and others had to hide. 

[Redrum]

1 hour ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

I'm straight, so I can't speak for what it was like to be a member of the LGBTQ+ community in the 80s. But by 1986, HIV/AIDS was very much known and there was a lot of hysteria about it, especially directed towards the LGBTQ+ community (very much like the Satanic Panic in the show. I imagine they want us to draw a parallel). Robin is unfortunately correct IMO that her being very public about being a lesbian would make her the town pariah.

Yeah, I don't expect the show to explore this unpleasant aspect of the 1980s but there's a reason my brother didn't come out to me in 1986 and it wasn't because I had issues or didn't already know, its that in small towns being gay meant being infected/possibly infected/untouchable

2 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

But I also think that the show is not wrong in acknowledging how strong the homophobia was during this era. In fact, I would say that the show is under-selling it. It was really a terrible time period for the LGBTQ+ community. 

They ARE underselling it. It was NOT ok to be out. I don't expect them to really get into it as the show IS about supernatural demons and I applaud and actually can easily see why Steve of all people is surprisingly cool about Robin (I think his horizons got broadened by his experiences in prior seasons) but I am going to be disappointed if Will comes out and everyone is totally cool. Thats just not realistic. 

[libgirl2]

11 minutes ago, Redrum said:

Yeah, I don't expect the show to explore this unpleasant aspect of the 1980s but there's a reason my brother didn't come out to me in 1986 and it wasn't because I had issues or didn't already know, its that in small towns being gay meant being infected/possibly infected/untouchable

They ARE underselling it. It was NOT ok to be out. I don't expect them to really get into it as the show IS about supernatural demons and I applaud and actually can easily see why Steve of all people is surprisingly cool about Robin (I think his horizons got broadened by his experiences in prior seasons) but I am going to be disappointed if Will comes out and everyone is totally cool. Thats just not realistic. 

I think if Will does come out to his friends, they will have a harder time with it. First, age, second, Robyn wasn't one of Steve's BFFs. He liked her but it isn't like this group. I hope they don't go too much into it as the focus should be more on the horror, but if he is, it does need to be addressed somehow. Maybe he would open up to El? I don't see her having an issue with it. 

[ch1]

5 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I think if Will does come out to his friends, they will have a harder time with it. First, age, second, Robyn wasn't one of Steve's BFFs. He liked her but it isn't like this group. I hope they don't go too much into it as the focus should be more on the horror, but if he is, it does need to be addressed somehow. Maybe he would open up to El? I don't see her having an issue with it. 

Jonathan or Joyce are the only answers.  They need to remember that this family actually exists and give them some scenes again.  The writers are so about Steve being surrogate big brother that they forgot that Jonathan actually is a big brother.  They forgot that Joyce went through hell to get Will back because Winona’s sole purpose is to be a prop in Hopper’s story apparently.   If Will where to come out to anyone it should be to one of the people who have proven how much they love him.  

[eleanorofaquitaine]

1 hour ago, Redrum said:

Yeah, I don't expect the show to explore this unpleasant aspect of the 1980s but there's a reason my brother didn't come out to me in 1986 and it wasn't because I had issues or didn't already know, its that in small towns being gay meant being infected/possibly infected/untouchable

They ARE underselling it. It was NOT ok to be out. I don't expect them to really get into it as the show IS about supernatural demons and I applaud and actually can easily see why Steve of all people is surprisingly cool about Robin (I think his horizons got broadened by his experiences in prior seasons) but I am going to be disappointed if Will comes out and everyone is totally cool. Thats just not realistic. 

One thing I wanted to add - while "Satanic Panic" was a thing in the 80s, I feel like it was not very widespread. I grew up in New England and while I heard stories on the news, etc. about D&D and Judas Priest or whatever, I don't remember there being really a lot of panic about it here. 

But homophobia was everywhere and panic around HIV/AIDS was widespread. That felt a lot more present in our everyday lives in the 80s than the idea that kids were becoming "evil" because of D&D. Like I said, I think that the writers want us drawing the parallel but if this were real life, that community meeting would have likely been more about AIDS than D&D.

Re Steve - yes, I think that having seen the world be infiltrated by demons from another dimension three times, he's adopted a live-and-let-live attitude that helps him to be accepting of Robin. But I doubt season one Steve, prior to being beaten up by Jonathan, would have been so accepting.

(Also, fingers crossed that season 4 Steve continues to avoid being beaten up by another human, though he certainly sustained some damage from the Upside Down bats).

Edited May 31, 2022 by eleanorofaquitaine

[SnapHappy]

I just thought Will just had a huge crush on El, not that he was in love with Mike.   

And I'll gatekeep the 80's a bit.  I know 2 guys and a girl I graduated High School with and NONE were out or came out in High School.  ZERO.  

It wasn't a homophobic or racist area, it just wasn't talked about.  Not everybody dates in High School.  They all came out well after their 20's and don't hide it anymore. 

Trying to force this show into an outwardly inclusive time and place for teenagers is futile.  Especially in a small Midwestern town.

I'm fine with what they're doing.  Obviously YMMV. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by SnapHappy

[libgirl2]

15 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

1. How did I not realize Murray is the sleazy brother in law from Fleabag?

2. Satanic Panic in my small town was stuff like, “Did you hear Ozzy Osbourne bit the head off a bat on stage?” And “I heard if you play this Beatles album backwards, it talks about Satan!” By 1986 when I was 15/16, we’d gotten rid of our VC Andrews books and moved fully into Stephen King.

3. What I do remember from 85/86 was the wife (Tipper) of a little known politician (Al) and the Parents Media Resource Center hearings on Capitol Hill about restricting my access to Prince albums and Cyndi Lauper’s She Bop. ParentsJam totally didn’t what I read or listened to. I read Wifey by Judy Blume in 1981 when my friends were reading Are You There God, It’s Me Margaret?  At the same time, watching these kids watching MTV isn’t interesting, so I don’t think that pop culture phenomenon plays well.  

About Jerk Jock Jason, he has experienced some real trauma so I don’t blame him for going off the rails. I mean, I don’t care if he’s Vecna fodder, but I don’t hate his guts. 

I believe it was the White Album. Oh, and don't forget Led Zeppelin. This was 79-83 when I was in HS. 

I also remember the PMRC hearings with Dee Snider, Frank Zappa and John Denver! 

[libgirl2]

20 minutes ago, SnapHappy said:

I just thought Will just had a huge crush on El, not that he was in love with Mike.   

And I'll gatekeep the 80's a bit.  I know 2 guys and a girl I graduated High School with and NONE were out or came out in High School.  ZERO.  

It wasn't a homophobic or racist area, it just wasn't talked about.  Not everybody dates in High School.  They all came out well after their 20's and don't hide it anymore. 

Trying to force this show into an outwardly inclusive time and place for teenagers is futile.  Especially in a small Midwestern town.

I'm fine with what they're doing.  Obviously YMMV. 

I didn't date in HS. The majority of my friends didn't either. Those who did did so Senior year. We were not the most popular group. 

[BlackberryJam]

27 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I believe it was the White Album. Oh, and don't forget Led Zeppelin. This was 79-83 when I was in HS. 

I also remember the PMRC hearings with Dee Snider, Frank Zappa and John Denver! 

Hahah…the evils of Led Zeppelin! I was a total free-range child, so by 1986, I’d moved through my Frankie Say Relax phase (JamDad on my FGTH shirt: Are you listening to my Frank Sinatra albums?) and well-established in my The Cure phase (JamDad butchering “Boys Don’t Cry” while walking through the mall was one of the most scarring experiences of my teen years.)

This reminds me of what I like about this show, the memories it brings up. 

We had no out gay kids in high school and only five Black kids in my four years of high school of 1200 students in total. We had more Korean than Black families. 

If a boy had come out as gay when I was in high school, he’d have been completely ostracized. Even the kids who would have sympathized would have avoided because of fear of the taint of otherness. I can understand Will’s fear and admire Robin’s bravery. 

Just looked at the actor’s real ages and Steve is 30. That’s a hoot because he looks 3 decades younger than Jonathan. I do not care about romances between any of the characters, even Joyce and Hopper. I do think Noah Schnapp is killing it as Will with all the unvoiced emotion. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by BlackberryJam
Typos. So Many Typos.

[libgirl2]

15 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Hahah…the evils of Led Zeppelin! I was a total free-range child, so by 1986, I’d moved through my Frankie Say Relax phase (JamDad on my FGTH shirt: Are you listening to my Frank Sinatra albums?) and well-established in my The Cure phase (JamDad butchering “Boys Don’t Cry” while walking through the mall was one of the most scarring experiences of my teen years.)

This reminds me of what I like about this show, the memories it brings up. 

We had no out gay kids in high school and only five Black kids in my four years of high school of 1200 students in total. We had more Korean than Black families. 

If a boy had come out as gay when I was in high school, he’d have been completely ostracized. Even the kids who would have sympathized would have avoided because of fear of the taint of otherness. I can understand Will’s fear and admire Robin’s bravery. 

Just looked at the actor’s real ages and Steve is 30. That’s a hoot because he looks 3 decades younger than Jonathan. I do not care about romances between any of the characters, even Joyce and Hopper. I do think Noah Schnapp is killing it as Will with all the unvoiced emotion. 

By senior year, I was the kid listening to The Cure! Plus we had MTV. I was the first girl in school to wear a mini-skirt! 

So yes, the show does bring up a lot of memories. Like last season with the mall. One of our mom's would drop us off and we would spend hours "hanging out". 

[Redrum]

51 minutes ago, SnapHappy said:

And I'll gatekeep the 80's a bit.  I know 2 guys and a girl I graduated High School with and NONE were out or came out in High School.  ZERO.  

It wasn't a homophobic or racist area, it just wasn't talked about.  Not everybody dates in High School.  They all came out well after their 20's and don't hide it anymore. 

I'll gatekeep as well. NO ONE was out at my high school although I did know of a few in that I was suspicious and later in life had it confirmed correct. 

Example? My junior prom date? Nice guy. Never knew he was gay until thirty years later he's my brother's date at Thanksgiving. 

I remember the Satanic Panic stuff as starting with D&D and the idea that people could and did get "lost in the game" and basically go crazy and think they were battling trolls because "it happened to that kid". However, 'that kid' was a real person and the actual disappearance of 'that kid' was only tangentially connected to playing D&D... but the story and the movie based on the story "Mazes and Monsters" (starring Tom Hanks) and tons of cheap horror novels based on the idea of demon possession thru playing D&D and Mothers Against Dungeons and Dragons had an impact. (MADD was debunked by Michael Stackpole) It just fueled the Satanic stuff with people linking all sorts of serial murder to Satanism, people saying they were born into Satanic cults (later revealed lying and or seriously mentally ill) and yeah, the whole toxic satanic childcare molestation thing where innocent people went to jail over crimes their toddlers were convinced by police to say they committed. The music banning was on the tail end of it.. It wasn't nonstop - the D&D aspect faded pretty rapidly in my neck of the woods but the "satanists in the woods" was something we teased each other about when we were.... drinking in the woods.

[libgirl2]

10 minutes ago, Redrum said:

I'll gatekeep as well. NO ONE was out at my high school although I did know of a few in that I was suspicious and later in life had it confirmed correct. 

Example? My junior prom date? Nice guy. Never knew he was gay until thirty years later he's my brother's date at Thanksgiving. 

I remember the Satanic Panic stuff as starting with D&D and the idea that people could and did get "lost in the game" and basically go crazy and think they were battling trolls because "it happened to that kid". However, 'that kid' was a real person and the actual disappearance of 'that kid' was only tangentially connected to playing D&D... but the story and the movie based on the story "Mazes and Monsters" (starring Tom Hanks) and tons of cheap horror novels based on the idea of demon possession thru playing D&D and Mothers Against Dungeons and Dragons had an impact. (MADD was debunked by Michael Stackpole) It just fueled the Satanic stuff with people linking all sorts of serial murder to Satanism, people saying they were born into Satanic cults (later revealed lying and or seriously mentally ill) and yeah, the whole toxic satanic childcare molestation thing where innocent people went to jail over crimes their toddlers were convinced by police to say they committed. The music banning was on the tail end of it.. It wasn't nonstop - the D&D aspect faded pretty rapidly in my neck of the woods but the "satanists in the woods" was something we teased each other about when we were.... drinking in the woods.

D&D was big in college, in HS I never even heard of it. What year is this season set in? 

[Redrum]

Just now, libgirl2 said:

D&D was big in college, in HS I never even heard of it. What year is this season set in? 

1986 is the current season.

I would have been a freshmenin high school in fall of '86 and by then, while I still had my D&D books the playing of the game had died off in my school. Video games and you know, sex, kind of killed it in the kids my age. 

[libgirl2]

3 minutes ago, Redrum said:

1986 is the current season.

I would have been a freshmenin high school in fall of '86 and by then, while I still had my D&D books the playing of the game had died off in my school. Video games and you know, sex, kind of killed it in the kids my age. 

Thanks. I thought so. There was something on there that my husband said wasn't right for the time period. He was in HS at that time. He played D&D a couple of times but didn't get into it. 

[MamaGee]

15 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

Also Henry telling El that together they could reshape the world and remake it however they see fit, "join me", sounded suspiciously like Darth Vader trying to convince his son Luke Skywalker to rule the galaxy together.

I saw this similarity, too. Also when El was fighting One, it was a lot like Dumbledore/Harry vs. Voldemort showdowns from the Harry Potter movies. 

[ichbin]

On 5/29/2022 at 1:31 AM, nomodrama said:

My thoughts watching that were that I would have had to start stacking furniture because I never would have been able to climb a bed sheet. I couldn't climb a rope in gym class to save my life when I was in high school. 

On 5/29/2022 at 2:01 AM, Demian said:

WHY IN HELL DID THEY MAKE US TRY TO DO THIS?  Just to humiliate us in front of our peers who actually could climb ropes?  Why was climbing ropes considered a skill we needed to learn?

Those  failed attempts at rope climbing left such an impression upon me that I also could only think in terms of those gym classes while watching that scene.  As I recall the rope in my school was totally smooth.  They didn't even give those of us less capable a fighting chance by putting in spaced knots to help us out.

Edited June 1, 2022 by ichbin

[Chicago Redshirt]

Random nerd flex:

My sister encountered a TSR person at an airport back in the early 1980s and did him a solid. I don't remember the details. Anyway, the TSR person asked if she had any siblings and on finding out that she did, he sent a bunch of roleplaying materials to us. There was D&D but there was also stuff for the less well-known games. I think they had a spy game called Top Secret and a Western game called Boot Hill and Gamma World, which was space-themed. I don't think we did much with it beyond D&D, but it's probably somewhere in my mom's house still.

[domina89]

Something I found interesting is that the tattoos on the lab kids all begin with a zero.  Like instead of just tattooing a 1 on Henry, it's 001.  Eleven is 011.  Obviously they had plans to "make" at least 100 or more of these children in these ongoing experiments.  

[blueray]

3 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

I didn't date in HS. The majority of my friends didn't either. Those who did did so Senior year. We were not the most popular group. 

Me either. That is one thing that bothers me about a lot of shows (not just stranger things) but most people I knew didn't date in HS. My best friend had a boyfriend senior year, but she was the only friend I knew that had one and honestly they broke up by graduation anyway. We were in a nerdy group. So this is probably why. So Will not dating anyone isn't weird at all and the show doesn't need to focus on this. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by blueray

[Redrum]

Honestly TV tends to overplay high school dating a lot. I mean, I knew people who were "going steady" etc but it was more casual than any tv show ever depicts. Most people sorta knew you weren't dating your future husband in eighth grade. I knew maybe one or two couple from high school who ended up married after seriously dating in high school but honestly it wasn't that important. 

[Aryanna]

On 5/29/2022 at 12:04 PM, Harvey said:

Lots of people mentioned that. 8 might make an appearance in season 5.

Wait what?

I thought this was the final season. I'm not sure I can stick it out for another season.

[Chicago Redshirt]

59 minutes ago, blueray said:

Me either. That is one thing that bothers me about a lot of shows (not just stranger things) but most people I knew didn't date in HS. My best friend had a boyfriend senior year, but she was the only friend I knew that had one and honestly they broke up by graduation anyway. We were in a nerdy group. So this is probably why. So Will not dating anyone isn't weird at all and the show doesn't need to focus on this. 

While a lot of people (including me) did not actually date much or at all in HS, I'd wager that most of that group were interested in dating but for one reason or another just were not successful in pulling it off. (i.e., too shy, religious/parental/cultural barriers).

None of those things as far as we have shown apply to Will. Will has shown an absolute lack of interest in dating girls despite at least one being flirty with him, and the subtext-almost-text-at-this-point is that the reason is because he's attracted to Mike.

Circling back to the potential relevance to the story, we have seen that Vecna preys on people's trauma and fears. He has done so with Max as to guilt about Billy and Nancy as to guilt about Barb.

It's a safe assumption that he is going to move on to target the rest of Our Heroes at some point in the second half of this season or the final one.

As to Will, Vecna has a choice of subject matters that include his prior UpsideDown/possession experiences. But I'm guessing that it will also include guilt about his interest in Mike/being queer. 

[Cattoy]

On 5/29/2022 at 1:16 AM, Redrum said:

I'm terribly shallow. My god, the kid playing Mike is one unattractive kid.

and

On 5/28/2022 at 11:22 PM, Demian said:

I know it's a TV show and everything, but there is no way in hell Nancy has the upper-body strength to climb that bedsheet.

Not only do I have to agree with both of those statements, but Mike has less muscle definition that Nancy. I knew skinny, nerdy kids in the 80s who rode their bikes everywhere, and they had muscles! Bike riding was exercise. Mike's twiggy legs look like they would break if he actually had to pedal all day. Hope he's just in an awkward stage, or his future roles could be limited.

On 5/30/2022 at 4:23 AM, QuantumMechanic said:

It does seem strange he didn’t kill Brenner when he killed all those other people.

Actually, I saw this as a mirror of what he did to his real "Papa" - leave him alive to suffer the loss of the others, and to possibly take the blame this time as well.

Some random thoughts:

Steve/Nancy/Jonathan - did the actors playing Nancy and Jonathan break up in real life? I know at one point they were involved. If so, maybe they don't want to be on screen together? I don't mind if they get Nancy and Steve back together, although I think he could do better. I never liked Jonathan. He was a creepy perv taking photos of people from the woods. There's no walking back just how bad that was. Now he's a total waste of a person, and the guy who plays him just isn't a very good actor.

Will - he has always been The Victim. That was his role in S1 and S2, and the only defining characteristic he had. They've never developed a personality for him beyond that, and I just don't think the writers have any idea what to do with him.

Russia - lord, who thought this was a good idea? They never did explain how the Soviets were able to build a multi-level sub-basement facility in the middle of the US with no one noticing. That's a hell of a lot more complicated than building a mall. Let's not add in the fact it was next to a secret government facility that opened a gate to another dimension. Someone would still be watching Hawkins. We know the US government monitors phone calls in Hawkins, but they never noticed the Soviets building a huge facility or sending out radio messages? And they were able to sneak people out of the facility and out of the country?

Watergate - okay, obviously no one involved in the show has ever gone swimming in a natural body of water in spring in the Midwest. Hypothermia sets in very, very quickly in cold water. For some reason, this breaks my ability to suspend disbelief more than anything else this season. I could fanwank that the gate is heating the water, but that would screw with fishy behavior, and people would notice. Why does this bother me?

The orderly being 1 was obvious, but the rest of the reveal was nicely done - even if it took about 3 hours too much filler material to get there. I do wonder how honest he was being with 11. Did Papa really want to kill her, or did 1 think she'd be the easiest to manipulate? I'm leaning that she really was the strongest of the bunch - 1 managed to kill everyone else, and she took him out single-handedly. Oh, and opened a gate to another dimension in the process - not too shabby for a little kid.

The jocks and the bullying in California were way over the top for me. It's like the show is parodying the 80s at this point. I do remember the Satanic Panic, but I also remember most people rolling their eyes at the idea.

Eddie is okay as the shocked coward, but I didn't care for his introduction. Argyle is a needless addition. The cast is already getting too large, and - so far - his character hasn't been needed. Joyce either had $40,000 in the bank or had no trouble getting it, so why couldn't she have gotten a working car instead of sending her kids out with a reckless driver?

[blueray]

^I've read that the money came from a trust that Hopper sent up for Eleven. 

Argyle, I'm not a fan. I really hope that they leave him in Utah or somewhere. He's annoying and served his purpose. It would also make sense for them to switch cars somehow, as the pizza van is really obvious. 

[CarpeFelis]

On 5/30/2022 at 6:26 AM, blueray said:

Eleven: In my opinion the bullying scenes were harder to watch than the horror ones. I felt so bad for Eleven and didn't get how/why the bullies hated her that much. Like don't they have better things to do on a Saturday. And we never found out what she did to them. I know it was wrong but I so cheered when the Eleven clopped the girl, she deserved it!

Eleven never did anything to them. She was simply different enough (oddly dressed, no friends, slow in class) to be an easy target for Angela the Mean Girl. Angela made up “she’s a snitch” as an excuse to torment her at the roller rink. Then again, I do sort of wonder whether Angela was actually naïve enough not to realize that she was so blatant in her hate for El that the teacher was on to her all along, no snitching necessary. I wonder this because I can remember being a kid/teenager and having some things make little sense to me, or not be able to see where a situation was leading, where in retrospect as an adult it’s glaringly obvious.

[CarpeFelis]

On 5/30/2022 at 7:42 AM, Redrum said:

Its not about hate, not really. Its interesting, I was watching season 1 last night and Lucas couldn't stand El and was basically a similar sort of jerk to her. 

Lets be honest - El is irritating as fuck to be around. If we as adults didn't know her whole traumatic and heroic backstory, we probably wouldn't be on her side in her bullying incidents. From a social standpoint, El is *difficult* to be around. She stares inappropriately, she's almost non verbal and when she does speak, she is very childish. Her mannerisms are awkward and she is socially awkward.

And, for some odd reason, she was fixated on being best friends with Angela who clearly did not want to be friends and straight up lied to Mike (friends don't lie except when El is doing it) about how she was best friends with Angela and totally loaded with friends. Its not Angela's fault that El had built a weird fantasy in her mind on how they were besties.

Note - not justifying Angela's behavior - she's old enough to understand that "there's something not right about that girl" as my mom would say and not be such a raging bitch. Unfortunately empathy has to be learned, we're not born with it, and this is why kids who are a little quirky or outside the norm get bullied. In Will and Mike's case, they just simply need to find their places. They're the kids where college will be the world opening up to them. With El, especially with her shall we say exotic background and emotional immaturity? Its going to be a LOT harder. 

I think Eleven lied to Mike about being best friends with Angela because she wanted him to think her life in California was perfect, and she saw that Angela was Little Miss Popular. We didn’t see any indication that she actually tried to be friends with Angela. If anything, it looked like she kept to herself. 

I also think Angela saw her as an easy target because she was so different—slow in class, no friends, oddly dressed, socially awkward. Why do popular kids like this go out of their way to bully kids who are different? Probably a “Lord of the Flies” power trip.

[roctavia]

13 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

I went to school in the early 80s. Since graduation, several people have come out. One is a very good friend of mine. I remember her having to pretend she had a crush on Steve Perry from Journey. Looking back, I feel so bad that she and others had to hide. 

I was in HS in the late 90s and still had most if not all of the gay classmates I know of hiding it (or not figuring it out) until college/later. In college I had a gay friend, so we would go to some of the LGTB events together, we ran into someone I knew in highschool and I could see the panic on his face in running into me at that kind of event. So I could see the 80s being an even bigger worry!

Edited June 1, 2022 by roctavia

[BlackberryJam]

On 5/30/2022 at 10:42 AM, Redrum said:

Its not about hate, not really. Its interesting, I was watching season 1 last night and Lucas couldn't stand El and was basically a similar sort of jerk to her. 

Lets be honest - El is irritating as fuck to be around. If we as adults didn't know her whole traumatic and heroic backstory, we probably wouldn't be on her side in her bullying incidents. From a social standpoint, El is *difficult* to be around. She stares inappropriately, she's almost non verbal and when she does speak, she is very childish. Her mannerisms are awkward and she is socially awkward.

And, for some odd reason, she was fixated on being best friends with Angela who clearly did not want to be friends and straight up lied to Mike (friends don't lie except when El is doing it) about how she was best friends with Angela and totally loaded with friends. Its not Angela's fault that El had built a weird fantasy in her mind on how they were besties.

Note - not justifying Angela's behavior - she's old enough to understand that "there's something not right about that girl" as my mom would say and not be such a raging bitch. Unfortunately empathy has to be learned, we're not born with it, and this is why kids who are a little quirky or outside the norm get bullied. In Will and Mike's case, they just simply need to find their places. They're the kids where college will be the world opening up to them. With El, especially with her shall we say exotic background and emotional immaturity? Its going to be a LOT harder. 

Angela was a super bitch, but what you’re saying about El is dead on.

As to the bolded part, in 2nd grade a girl, we‘ll call her Jessie, in my class decided she and I should be best friends. I did not like her. I can’t remember why. I had two very good friends who would help me avoid her by ensuring she didn’t get to sit next to me. 

Jessie would follow me around on the playground. Tell people we were best friends. Ask the teachers to pair me with her for things. I wanted Jessie to stay the hell away from me. I told her I didn’t want to be her friend.  

Jessie told her mom that I was her best friend and her mom would always want to give me a ride home from school or to invite me over after school. I always, always refused. I was constantly anxious about it. 

This went on until I think right before the Christmas holiday. I don’t remember what happened, but in gym, we ended up on different dodge ball teams and I hit her with a ball in the stomach so hard she cried and went to the nurse’s office. I did not get in trouble for that because …well it was dodge ball and everyone was getting nailed. It was the late 1970s.

I was wrong for what I did, and I know it. I was also 8. Jessie stopped trying to be my friend. 

In no way is what Angela was doing right, but bullying is not as black and white as TV portrays it. Does Jessie remember me as a bullying bitch who was mean to her without cause? Probably. Do I remember her as a weird stalker who made my first semester of 2nd grade such hell that I would cry when I got home? Yes.

I had a similar thing happen with a boy when I was in 7th grade and he decided I was his girlfriend. He probably hates me too. 

El is a difficult personality and it’s got to be hard for her to find her way in normal society, let alone high school. Picking up and leaving her friend group had to be hard. 

So as a depiction of reality, the Angela scenes didn’t ring true to me. But as an homage to Carrie and some emotional catharsis to everyone who ever felt bullied, the skate worked. 

[AmigaJoe]

I'm really curious about the timeline. It seems like Eleven getting captured, Will's mom going to rescue Hopper, and Vecna going on a killing spree were all happening simultaneously. Yet this last episode seems to suggest Vecna's creation was in the past, before 11 escaped. How can that be? Her memories of all the killing in the facility could not be memories, but future echoes? They really tried to screw with the perception of events here...

[QuantumMechanic]

Some stream of consciousness thoughts about this episode and the season as a whole, in no particular order...

• I can't remember the the first season well enough -- does Nancy know who Brenner is?  It appears that her view into Henry Creel's memories shows the (young) Brenner and she hears the name.  But would she link that to El? How much of El's backstory does she know in terms of the lab and stuff.
• Since the One monologue was a single ongoing thing whose visuals cut back and forth between Nancy's and El's POV, what was each told?  Did both hear the entire monologue?
• I come down on the side that the Upside Down as a dimension was always there and El "merely" threw One into it.  And while I bet One formed a bunch of stuff on it (like his Hawkins house and probably other Hawkins stuff) it wasn't a completely formless void when he was thrown in.  I'm pretty sure I saw land and mountains and stuff in the lightning flashes as he was falling.
• I think (but am far less sure than of other things) that One created the Mindflayer.  That he loves spiders and the MF is very spider-adjacent seems a little too much to be a mere coincidence.  Unless...hmmm...the MF somehow was able to make a low-level connection to Henry Creel and influence him.
• So One has been in there since 1979.  Why did he wait 7 years to start attacking people in our world? Why can he open portals now?  Why didn't he start popping open portals to send over demogorgons to attack? (I mean I know/strongly suspect the real answer is that One/Vecna is something ginned up late in the game and wasn't in mind at all in the earlier seasons.)
• Was there any "native" life in the UD?  Or is One responsible for it all?  (Ties into the question of whether he created the MF or not.)
• Will El's void-walking (which was to practice her remote spying) in Season 1 be retconned into Brenner hoping to get a new portal open to the UD? The vol 2 previous showed a shot of Brenner looking pretty damned interested in the "healed" wall (which while a wall again still had a bunch of residual black tracing on it).
• I think either Jonathan or Steve is going to die.  If so, I hope it's Jonathan.
• Hopefully One will harvest the head jock.  He certainly has enough hate and anguish and trauma to be a candidate.
• As an A1000 owner it was great to see the machine with Suzie.  Too bad the first time it was shown it was using clearly a PC font.  At least the second time it was shown (during the location lookup) you see some legit-looking Workbench icons even though the colors were all wrong.  I want my blue and orange!
• Murray is the only thing making the ponderous, time-wasting Russia subplot even remotely worth watching.
• I find myself not caring about the California crew at all. Mike has turned into an annoying cipher and Will just mopes.  And the less said about Jonathan the better.
• Sadie Sink has been AMAZING this year.
• It's would probably be a retcon (because I don't believe they had even thought up Vecna in Season 3), but did Vecna empower the MF construct in our world to scramble El's mind so she'd lose her powers?
• In addition to feeding himself, are the portals Vecna is opening sufficient to allow the MF "smoke" in our world to reconstitute the MF avatar here?  The vol 2 preview seems to indicate that's a distinct possibility. And is that his plan?
• Why did Vecna give Nancy the look into his memories?  To gloat?
• I'm glad we're only getting a little of Erica this year.  She's OK in very small doses but is pretty annoying beyond that.
• I'm definitely concerned about Steve coughing as they arrived at the UD version of Eddie's trailer.  He's the only one who did.
• I guess the gravestone thing in the teaser trailer was just a continuity glitch.  The trailer had two glimpses of Max at Billy's grave.  One time the gravestone said "Billy".  The other time (which was when they showed her levitating) the gravestone said "William".  And we saw "William" in the actual aired gravestone scene.
• I have to think One/Vecna will be the Big Bad for Season 5, which I imagine will end with his final defeat at the hands of El which may once and for all end the threat of the UD to Earth (aside from governments trying to open portals some more, that is).  I wouldn't put it past the Duffers to have her die taking out One, though. 

[QuantumMechanic]

27 minutes ago, AmigaJoe said:

I'm really curious about the timeline. It seems like Eleven getting captured, Will's mom going to rescue Hopper, and Vecna going on a killing spree were all happening simultaneously. Yet this last episode seems to suggest Vecna's creation was in the past, before 11 escaped. How can that be? Her memories of all the killing in the facility could not be memories, but future echoes? They really tried to screw with the perception of events here...

El getting captured and brought to Nevada, Joyce going to Alaska, and Vecna killing the teens are all co-temporaneous in 1986.  Vecna's creation was in 1979.  It does get a little confusing because as part of the memory conceit they have El seeing herself in her memories as the grown-up El, except when she sees herself in a mirror and a couple of other scenes where we see the 9yo or 10yo El.  But all the stuff in Project Nina is being driven by Brenner playing videotapes of 1979 stuff to her.

[AmigaJoe]

15 minutes ago, QuantumMechanic said:

El getting captured and brought to Nevada, Joyce going to Alaska, and Vecna killing the teens are all co-temporaneous in 1986.  Vecna's creation was in 1979.  It does get a little confusing because as part of the memory conceit they have El seeing herself in her memories as the grown-up El, except when she sees herself in a mirror and a couple of other scenes where we see the 9yo or 10yo El.  But all the stuff in Project Nina is being driven by Brenner playing videotapes of 1979 stuff to her.

But we see Brenner and the other kids at the facility dead. Up until then, he was interacting with Eleven in a seemingly re-captured state. The other scientist (Paul Reiser) was back after a (seemingly) long absence. All suggests this is happening now (1986). If the final show-down between Eleven and 001 ended up with El turning him into Vecna and Brenner's death happened in 1979, how is that possible?

[CarpeFelis]

9 minutes ago, AmigaJoe said:

But we see Brenner and the other kids at the facility dead. Up until then, he was interacting with Eleven in a seemingly re-captured state. The other scientist (Paul Reiser) was back after a (seemingly) long absence. All suggests this is happening now (1986). If the final show-down between Eleven and 001 ended up with El turning him into Vecna and Brenner's death happened in 1979, how is that possible?

Brenner didn’t die in 1979, that’s how.

[QuantumMechanic]

Just now, CarpeFelis said:

Brenner didn’t die in 1979, that’s how.

Which clear on multiple levels:

0) Didn't the opening of the first episode of this season say "September 1979"?  And then we saw the outcome of the massacre, placing it in 1979.
1) We see repeated shots from immediately after the Eleven/One fight (you can tell because of the broken window (and all the dead people)) where the injured Brenner is yelling "Eleven, what have you done??"  So Brenner is clearly not dead in 1979.
2) In 1986 he tells El "Will you revisit the past one more time with me?"  He then picks the September 1979 video tape to play to El, further indicating that the massacre was in 1979 since the whole point of the 1986 Project Nina "therapy" is to have El relive her past memories so she can re-discover what specific trigger memory she used to access her powers.

[silverstream]

On 5/29/2022 at 6:58 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

2. Was there a reason why One was taking a shine to El as opposed to the others, or was he trying this recruitment with each of the younglings? Are we supposed to think pedo vibes? Or is it because El is more powerful than the others?

On 5/29/2022 at 7:04 PM, Harvey said:

2. It's because El is the strongest, he views her as being on his level. He mentioned multiple times that they are "the same" and in an earlier episode he talked about the similarities more, how things were hard for him too in the beginning.

I didn't get either why One fixated on El so much... I thought he might just be buttering her up so she'd remove the chip, but him asking her to stay in the room while he stepped out and killed everybody else seemed genuine. I don't really feel the "she's the strongest" explanation because she clearly wasn't the strongest of the kids at the facility, at least not from what we saw - when she beat Two that one time, it didn't seem like the other kids were expecting that, and she didn't seem self-confident about her powers either. So the next closest to his "we're the same" explanation seems to be that he sees his psychopathy (?) in her, which, besides kind of icky, is also clearly not true - yeah, El can overreact with violence (I'm one of those who think the skate thing was OTT for the situation - hit her with her fist? sure, but the skate could have easily taken out Angela's eye), but that's always been when she loses control or feels powerless, never her first go-to response, and she usually seems to feel awful about it.

Who knows, maybe he is her father, as some have speculated.

I'm also curious whether we get more information on One's backstory - why/how did his mom suspect he had magical powers? How did she get in contact with Brenner, of all people? Or did she just get in contact with a random psychologist, and the rest is part of One's delusions - but that wouldn't explain why he woke up in Brenner's lab following the murders (at least, that's what's implied). Either way, Brenner just figuring out how to replicate his innate(?) magical powers somehow seems awfully convenient when we already had a perfectly good explanation. Maybe this wasn't the first generation of moms/kids to be experimented on, and Brenner/mom were already involved in some other experiment.

Last but not least, I noticed that cough - the show better not kill Steve!

[thuganomics85]

Just finished the Stranger Things film... err, I mean season finale.  Wait, that's not right either: the finale for part one actually!  Whew, think I got it right now!

Kind of saw the twist coming, but I thought it was a solid reveal that will help connect a lot of this.  The Vecna is not only Victor Creel's son who always had these powers and had a few screws loose clearly, but he was also the orderly in all of those Eleven flashbacks that, yep, was actually One this entire time.  Turns out that after he killed his mom and sister, Dr. Brenner somehow got a hold of him and once he realized he couldn't be controlled, he was trying to "recreate" him with all the others.  And it turns out it was One that actually caused that massacre after tricking Eleven into helping him.  He tried to kill Eleven too, but she was able to defeat him and send him to the Upside Down World after getting a boost from a happy memory instead (suspect that is actually the key to defeating him and not just simply music.)  Curious to see what the next step in his plan is.  Jamie Campbell Bower did a good job with just flipping the switch to pure crazy in the end.

Not surprised that Nancy, Robin, and Eddie were able to save Steve from being some monsters' meals, but I certainly hoping the coughing fit was just a fake-out and not a sign of something worse.  Granted, I would be totally surprised if the show actually kills a fan favorite like him, but I guess anything is possible.  Until I'm proven wrong, I'm just going to continue to believe he ain't going anywhere but will always be suffering in some form, because that's Steve's lot in life.

Enjoyed Steve and Eddie bonding over how annoying they both think Dustin can be at times, but how they are also jealous of one another because both love that Dustin thinks they're cool.  Oh, and Eddie gave him a shirt to "protect" his modesty, because I guess he's not a fan of Shirtless Steve (granted, all that blood might have knocked back some of the appeal.)

Looks like it is Nancy's turn to be in peril/Vecna's clutches.  Doubt she's in trouble though: especially since they've got a love triangle to solve!

Glad Hopper and Joyce (along with Murray) have been reunited.  Pleasantly surprised Dmitri made it out in one piece as well.  Still not wild about this Russian plot, but I grew to like the interplay between David Harbour and Tom Wlaschiha.

These parents and cops are going to learn real quick that if you leave the kids by themselves for just a few moments, they will find a way to thwart y'all.  They're some resourceful little buggers!

I'm guessing Will, Jonathan, and Mike were just too busy traveling to Nevada and it wasn't worth checking in on them for this one.

Pretty good first half, I think.  Some issues like the overlong episodes (but honestly wasn't as bad as it could have been.  This show is at least good pacing wise) and subplots (especially anything that has to do with Russia), but I enjoy this new threat, some of the new characters, and the returning players have mainly been used well (although, I hope they all reunite soon.)  Cast is still great.  Harbour was his normal reliable self and Joe Keery continues to steal every scene he is in, but I think I'll give Sadie Sink the MVP trophy for these episode: especially the 4th one.  Can't wait to see what is in store for the second half!

Edited June 5, 2022 by thuganomics85

[PurpleTentacle]

On 5/30/2022 at 4:19 AM, Emily Thrace said:

Neither of those drugs have been around "hundreds of years".

Aphetamins were first synthesised in 1887.

LSD was first synthesised in 1938, but Psilocybin has the exact same effect and has been used by humans throughout history.

On 5/30/2022 at 4:19 AM, Emily Thrace said:

Its not definitive because no one has studied the generational effects of these drugs.  Its been implied since the second season that the drugs caused Eleven's abilities.

Both drugs have been studied extensively. There are not many drugs and medication on the planet that have been studied as much.

On 5/30/2022 at 4:19 AM, Emily Thrace said:

We know LSD can't have created One since it didn't exist yet.

That's just not true. LSD was first sold in 1949. 1 is ~10 in 1959. The timeline would absolutely work out.

On 5/30/2022 at 4:19 AM, Emily Thrace said:

Of the drugs readily available in WW2 amphetamines make more sense with MK Ultra than say morphine.

No.

[AmigaJoe]

8 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Which clear on multiple levels:

0) Didn't the opening of the first episode of this season say "September 1979"?  And then we saw the outcome of the massacre, placing it in 1979.
1) We see repeated shots from immediately after the Eleven/One fight (you can tell because of the broken window (and all the dead people)) where the injured Brenner is yelling "Eleven, what have you done??"  So Brenner is clearly not dead in 1979.
2) In 1986 he tells El "Will you revisit the past one more time with me?"  He then picks the September 1979 video tape to play to El, further indicating that the massacre was in 1979 since the whole point of the 1986 Project Nina "therapy" is to have El relive her past memories so she can re-discover what specific trigger memory she used to access her powers.

So the reality is that El is still a prisoner at the NINA facility. The other kids are dead, and she and Dr Brenner are alone there?

[Chicago Redshirt]

12 minutes ago, AmigaJoe said:

So the reality is that El is still a prisoner at the NINA facility. The other kids are dead, and she and Dr Brenner are alone there?

Yes, what happened in 1979 was that Young El was being bullied by her psychic siblings, One groomed her and persuaded her to remove his implant, and with his powers restored he went on a rampage, killing all the other psychics and a bunch of guards (but not Dr. Brenner). The rampage continued El stopped him, inadvertently pushing him into the Upside Down, creating the first (as far as we know) gate to the Upside Down and turning him into Vecna.

It's not entirely clear whether the Upside Down existed previously, or whether it had indigenous lifeforms if it did. It seems pretty clear that Vecna was helped at least shape part of it into a mirror version of Hawkins, and that he had at least some connection to the other denizens of the Upside Down. (He talks about how he remembered everyone he killed, referring to Barb. Well, Vecna didn't personally kill Barb, so he seems to be claiming connection over what did). It's also not clear why Vecna is only now personally taking action, or what the relationship is between Vecna and the Mind Flayer. (Dustin threw out the theory that Vecna is the Mind Flayer's general, but it could be the other way around, or they could be rivals,  or one could just be an extension of the other or they could have nothing to do with one another). 

Fast-forward to this season and 1986. El has gone to the Nevada facility where Project Nina is, and she is undergoing treatment to try to restore her powers. That treatment has included reliving the events of 1979 and thereabouts, including the titular massacre at the lab. In 1986 in the Nevada facility, Dr. Brenner is there, Dr. Owens is there and a bunch of support staff. The California crew of Will, Mike, Jonathan and Argyle are en route there.

At least on the surface, El has been told that she is free to go if she wants to by Owens. Whether that's true or not, who knows?

Edited June 1, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[eleanorofaquitaine]

7 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Yes, what happened in 1979 was that Young El was being bullied by her psychic siblings, One groomed her and persuaded her to remove his implant, and with his powers restored he went on a rampage, killing all the other psychics and a bunch of guards (but not Dr. Brenner). The rampage continued El stopped him, inadvertently pushing him into the Upside Down, creating the first (as far as we know) gate to the Upside Down and turning him into Vecna.

It's not entirely clear whether the Upside Down existed previously, or whether it had indigenous lifeforms if it did. It seems pretty clear that Vecna was helped at least shape part of it into a mirror version of Hawkins, and that he had at least some connection to the other denizens of the Upside Down. (He talks about how he remembered everyone he killed, referring to Barb. Well, Vecna didn't personally kill Barb, so he seems to be claiming connection over what did).

Fast-forward to this season and 1986. El has gone to the Nevada facility where Project Nina is, and she is undergoing treatment to try to restore her powers. That treatment has included reliving the events of 1979 and thereabouts, including the titular massacre at the lab. In 1986 in the Nevada facility, Dr. Brenner is there, Dr. Owens is there and a bunch of support staff. The California crew of Will, Mike, Jonathan and Argyle are en route there.

At least on the surface, El has been told that she is free to go if she wants to by Owens. Whether that's true or not, who knows?

It's probably true insofar as it goes. They are out in the desert and she's a young teenager who has some survival skills but only so far. Without her powers, it would be difficult for her to leave. (Of course, I assume that Owens wouldn't just drop her in the desert but then, El would still be in the position of wanting to help her friends).

In the end, there's more reasons for El to stay than to leave. Granted, Brenner is still an unethical, manipulative jerk - but he is the key for her to get her powers back and that is something El wants.