S06.E06: The World Turned Upside Down

[Athena]

Quote

A dysentery epidemic spreads on the Ridge, and Claire falls deathly ill; she is almost recovered when the Christies arrive and drop a bombshell; as nefarious rumors spread like wildfire on the Ridge, tragedy strikes.

Reminder: The is the book talk thread. This may include spoilers for ALL the books. If you wish to remain unspoiled for any of the books, please leave now and head to the No Book Talk episode thread.

[NeenerNeener]

This one was tough to watch. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

UGH.

At least Claire didn’t go running down the hill like a teenager, with Jamie running after her. And also spared Malva insisting on shaving Claire’s hair.

I could have sworn that Malva was proved a liar in the buik when it was revealed she saw him bathing in the river. And I don’t remember if she was killed. My bet is on Allan having killed her.

Here’s hoping that this will at least stop Claire from dosing herself with ether.

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by GHScorpiosRule

[cardigirl]

Despite the horrific ending, I thought this was a great episode. Plenty of Jamie and Claire talking about their relationship.  So well acted.  I wonder why Brianna was not showing more than Malva. She tells people she's pregnant, but she never looked different, even though months had passed. That kind of took me out of the story a little. 

I have been enjoying this season a lot, though and will be said when we go back to Droughtlander. 

Edited April 10, 2022 by cardigirl

[GHScorpiosRule]

17 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

Despite the horrific ending, I thought this was a great episode. Plenty of Jamie and Claire talking about their relationship.  So well acted.  I wonder why Brianna was not showing more than Malva. She tells people she's pregnant, but she never looked different, even though months has passed. That kind of took me out of the story a little. 

I have been enjoying this season a lot, though and will be said when we go back to Droughtlander. 

Yeah, the timing, or rather the look of Malva’s pregnancy compared to Brianna’s doesn’t make sense IF Malva only became pregnant at the same time or right after Bree did. I say she was already 3-4 months along and hid it. So when “two months passed” Malva would be around 6 or 7 months. 

I will also admit I’m glad Claire wasna shaved bald. And it seems starting with this episode that they may have been filmed after Cait had her baby? She looked considerably thinner. And Jamie’s lines about her weight loss and the loss of her “arse” which he’s always been fond of (😅😅😅) coincided with this plot.

If I never hear Lionel’s voice or see his FUGLY FUCKING face, it will be too soon. It’s getting right up there with that FUCKING Black Jack Randall.

And I was also expecting Roger to come into the room and call Malva a fucking liar. But…PLOT! typical of Graphia.🙄😒

Edited April 10, 2022 by GHScorpiosRule

[GHScorpiosRule]

Sae I went back to the buik thread to see what I’d written about the Malva allegations and yup, Allan was in on it-and he was the one who had seen Jamie’s scars. I had been undergoing chemo when I was reading. At least the Show filmed what Jamie said to those brats that tried to drown Henri-Christian!

Not putting the below in spoiler tags as this is the buik talk thread!😏

On 1/26/2016 at 7:49 PM, peacefrog said:

I think her brother told her about the scars because he had bathed in the river with him and he was in on the plan to incriminate Jamie.

 

On 7/22/2015 at 10:06 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

I know I said it afore, but HOLYSHIT!!!!!

 

That is my reaction from reading the last few pages of the last chapter after Claire got the fever and was on the road to recovery. I am up to 56% and good Googly Moogly!!!! The flipping of emotions is takin' its toll on me!

 

Big rush of relief to read that Marsali's okay, and I don't have issues with how Fergus has reacted to the birth of Henri Christian; it makes him human. But I am surprised that from birth, a doctor and people can tell when a baby will be a Little Person. First I thought it might be Down Syndrome, but Marsali is only like 19?

 

So I'm not all over the place, I'll try to post my thoughts in order; or try to, at any rate.

 

So, Bonnet didn't die. But! He lost a testicle! Hee, at Dr. Fentiman describing to Claire how there was a hole right through the ball, and how he wishes he could have kept it, like he does with all those other specimans.  

 

And fucking Donner is still alive. AND he escaped! Ugh. And whaaaat???? There are like 200 more time travelers????  Jeebus Cripes!

 

And now I'm trying to figure out who it was that Jocasta recognized--if it's someone we, the readers have also met.

 

Man, but I'm starting to intensely dislike Malva, if not outright hating her. Blackmailing Roger? Not to sound overly melodramatic, but doesn't she realize who his father-in-law is? That said...

 

just how stupid is Roger? Did he seriously think no one would talk with him spending all his time with the Widow McCallum and Aiden?

But I did love him breaking the broom in two, because Bree's always been "I can do this MYSELF!" "I don't need any HELP! from you!" blah, blah, blah... And Roger just has this need to be needed and he's not getting that from Bree. That is, he doesn't think she needs him.

Not that excuses Roger from his stupidity, but Bree's passive aggressiveness is getting beyond annoying.

 

And despite what DG wrote, I don't think Roger has what they call "Mommy Issues" because that's so not what I'm seeing, but more, he feels he's in competition with Jamie. Not through any fault of Jamie's but again, what Bree says. "Maybe you should wait for Da....let Da handle it..." and blah, blah, blah...

 

Can Bree just shut up and remember what century she's in?

 

And I don't really want to start this debate again but I did read all the comments before the show even started, and there was a big debate over the spanking scene in Outlander, and it was brought up again after "The Reckoning", how in later buiks, the spanking is revisited--that is, how Jamie never says "Sorry" or apologizes for what he did, and that he was laughing and joking about it, which pissed Claire off again.  And that at least the show had him say sorry and ask for forgiveness. Well. I read that scene today. In this buik. And those past comments just don't take into account the context in which the spanking was brought up.

 

And who knew Jamie thought like I did, that "beating" means using one's fists, and what Jamie did was give Claire a good tawse, which didn't bloody her, or break her skin, or leave her with bruises. Okay, maybe the latter, and she couldn't sit for a few days.  Jamie goes as far to say if he had beaten her, he probably would have killed her. And Claire wasn't really hurt; what she was, was pissed.*

 

And all this got brought up again, because Claire told Jamie about Tom Christie hitting Malva with a switch on her nekkid bum.  And Jamie didn't see anything wrong with that, because, he probably thought she did something to be punished for. Aaaand then Claire brings up her own spanking, and I could see she's still pissed about it, and as she should be, but the joking/laughing? I, along with a friend, saw it as Jamie baiting Claire, because he likes it when she's in a temper, if that makes sense.  And of course, I'm one of the very few that had no problem or issue with the tawsing in Outlander.

 

That said, I just don't trust Malva.

 

It will be interesting to see how the Lizzie and the Beardsley plays out, because she was certainly showing signs of jealousy during the ether testing with Bobby.

 

And then the humor. I love the humor here.  After the sadness of learning that Manfred has the pox and he runs off, and then they learn he was spotted, and Jamie and Wee Ian go to investigate, I love, just really, really love how Claire tells Wee Ian, to NOT go investigating personally when he does so, and he's all like Auntie!!!! Really. Yes, really. And what does he end up doing? He ends up tupping the prostitute/madam, who had had sex with Manifred! So now, (after visiting Fentiman and discovering the metal syringes and what they're used for---eeeeeOUCH!), she points the finger and says, like "YOU!" and calls him a wretch, and frogmarches him to get a needle in the ass, I hope.

 

Right," I said.  "Fortunately, I have some penicillin left--and a nice dull syringe.  Inside with you, Ian, you abandoned wretch, and down with your breeks."

 

Me: LOLOLOL. Oh Wee Ian. Never ever change!

 

And The Adventures of Fergus and Wee Ian commence!

 

But before that I think was the hilarity of Jamie keeping at bay the "rebels" who were all fit and tied to tar and feather Simms. I totally loved that scene! Jamie tarring Neil with the...tar, the broken brooms around him, which told me that he broke them in half...Jamie baiting and taunting the crowd...and yes, Fergus and Wee Ian grabbing and splitting open the mattress, where everyone who was out for Simms' blood got feathered!

 

So, it looks like Bree might be pregnant. I wonder if she decided stop taking her "birth control" when she noticed how much time Roger was spending with Aiden and Amy? Because she started taking the "birth control" and never told Roger she was doing so.

I feel so bad for Bobby. I really like him. He's supposed to be English, but for the life of me, I can't figure out what kind of accent DG is going for with him. It's not Cockney and certainly not the upper crust Brit. I'm trying to "hear" him, but can't. Does that make sense?  I'm all over the place today, not making sense.

 

And then the "bloody flux" epidemic. It was all so convoluted that I didn't quite understand if Claire figured it out that it had come from the water? What? Because next thing I know, she's fallen to the ground and hit with the fever!!!! 

 

I read what happened, and I couldn't stop reading, and sat in my car, my very hot car, with the sun blazing through the windshield, until I got to the end of the chapter.

 

Those bitches, Malva and Mrs. Bug. Okay, mebbe Mrs. Bug really thought that was the best way to treat Claire's fever.  I really empathized with her, because that's how I felt when I started losing my hair and then my best friend came over and shaves the rest. I cried against her shoulder for a good few minutes; just like I did when I had gone to her a couple weeks before that, when she cut it short in a pixiesh cut; I really thought that would be the end of it. So my reaction was exactly like Claire's when she started crying. At first I thought that she had been found to be a witch or something, and her hair got shorn because of that and all that gobbeldygook wording DG was using was describing Claire being drowned or something.

But what gutted me was Fergus! Fergus!!!!! Puir, puir Fergus!!!! This just ain't right. It's just not. That he's come so far, what with losing his hand when he was just 12 or thereabouts, to feel as if he's dead, then Marsali can marry a "whole" man who would be able to take care of her and their children? And the way Jamie described to Claire, how he held and yelled at Fergus. Look, I consider myself a cynical bitch these days and it's only Nora and Nalini who can make me cry when I read some of their books. But DAMN.  The way Claire held Jamie against her breasts...

Oh, and Roger! But oh, oh, oh, Jamie. As he hunched over the window in grief...but I'd like to know why he laughed when he told Claire she was still beautiful. Relief that she's alive? I think so. The whole dialogue transition wasna verra clear. Par for the course with DG.

 

Sorry, I know I'm jumping all over the place, but the one time I really needed to see Bree being furious, it was over what was done to Claire, Just like when she told the hosebeast that Claire was Jamie's wife, and that she was their legitimate child.  I really needed her to rip Malva a new one.  And what those brats did to Henri Christian. I fucking fell more for Roger as he baptized him and threatened them with Hell.

 

And I sure would have loved to have seen what Jamie said exactly to those brats.

 

And I awwwed at how Jamie played catch the finger with Henri Christian.

 

And now I'm off to bed to continue wi' the reading, after I've had my dose of Laphroaig this evening.

 

I'm sure I left out some things, but that's what happens when I'm reading and just burning through. Skimming parts that don't interest me, and if I see Jamie or Claire's names, I go back, read and move along...

 

*It's the word I was struggling with when discussing with someone else, who hit the nail on the head for me.

 

[nodorothyparker]

See, Claire. This is what you get when you ether yourself again. You're stuck performing a DIY C-section on a dead woman in a muddy garden row.

It was really obvious for much of this episode that Cait the actress was pregnant while the character was not, traipsing all over the place in her in big shapeless apron. There was definitely some selective framing going on in certain scenes.

I'm glad too the show skipped Claire running off like a teenage girl in a snit. She still went for the big soap opera slap and storming out, but it was subdued enough that it came across more as I need to remove myself from this scene before I do something I'm really going to regret than the melodrama on the page. The show wisely prefaced all of this with the lovely bedroom talk about faithfulness that really highlighted the characters' history and chemistry, which in turn really helped sell the later stable scene of Claire declaring that of course she believes Jamie, that they're all in this space out of their own time for any of this to be happening in the first place because "I loved you more than the life that was mine." All the book running hither and yon aside, I've always liked that talk that gets to the heart of the Outlander story.

The young actress playing Malva gets full marks for the range she's shown in the role. For as scheming and vindictive as she was accusing Jamie, she looked so very vulnerable  and wavering when Claire went to try to reason with her, only to immediately fall back in line with the chosen narrative when Allan called her to heel. In the book, Allan will later tell Claire that she was going to Claire's garden to confess the truth because she had loved Claire too much to keep up the lie. We don't get much of that here as that conversation will come with the story wrap, but they still did a decent job of hinting at her following in Claire's footsteps as the path that might have been had she not gotten pregnant after a lifetime of Tom beating her and Allan molesting her from the time she was fairly young.

[GHScorpiosRule]

31 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

 

See, Claire. This is what you get when you ether yourself again. You're stuck performing a DIY C-section on a dead woman in a muddy garden row.

 

I’m sorry, I know that was a dramatic scene, but your comment above is what I was thinking and just made me 😂😂😂 because it’s true! I’ve been under anesthesia multiple times for the many surgeries I’ve had, and never did I have hallucinations like Claire did before she woke up. It’s like going to sleep without dreaming. You’re out and then you’re awake again. The only thing I ever did, which still embarrasses me to this day, was saying “You’re cuuuuuuute!” to the anesthesiologist as I was waking up. And I heard my doctor saying that clearly I was still under the effects!😅😅😅 I was young, and the anesthesiologist WAS cute. I had talked with him about the surgery. 
 

I rewatched seasons 4-5 on Friday and Saturday and there was a featurette about the fifth finale with Cait, Sam, the director, and writers. And Cait said the PTSD is something that will stay with Claire for the rest of her life. Or something like that. I can accept and understand that, but I sure as hell don’t want to see Lionel’s FUGLY FUCKING face after this season.

And like you also stated in episode 4, for someone who has been so in tune with Claire, and what she feels, etc., Jamie is being depicted as TOTALLY clueless about her PTSD, and seeing fucking liars who lie. Where’s Murtagh when you need him, to slap Jamie upside his heid?

 

ETA: At least Sam/Jamie didn’t look like a white pasty dead fish! I saw some color to his face.

WOT??? Jamie is written to have a ruddy/bronze tint to his complexion!

Edited April 10, 2022 by GHScorpiosRule

[Noneofyourbusiness]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I’m sorry, I know that was a dramatic scene, but your comment above is what I was thinking and just made me 😂😂😂 because it’s true! I’ve been under anesthesia multiple times for the many surgeries I’ve had, and never did I have hallucinations like Claire did before she woke up. It’s like going to sleep without dreaming.

It must vary. When Claire was demonstrating the ether on Lizzie and Josiah for Malva, she said that's what usually happens, but sometimes you have dreams.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Scarlett45]

Damn I have to say I was shocked. I knew Malva would falsely accuse Jaime of being the father, but I had no idea she would be murdered. Sweet Jesus that was an action packed episode. 
 

Malva was absolutely wrong to accuse Jaime and I was so damn angry at her. But Malva is so damaged, as angry as I am I am saddened- she didn’t deserve to die like that (the baby either). And to kill her on Jaime’s doorstep!

[sas616]

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And it seems starting with this episode that they may have been filmed after Cait had her baby? She looked considerably thinner.

They cut filming short partly due to Cait's pregnancy.   They never returned to filming after the baby was born.   So, she was pregnant throughout this episode.

[Eureka]

12 hours ago, NeenerNeener said:

This one was tough to watch. 

I kept thinking about how hard it must have been for Caitriona being pregnant while shooting this one.

[cardigirl]

Claire's speech to Jamie about how she doesn't belong "here," meaning the 18th century, was one of my most favorite scenes ever. I don't know if that is in the book, but her explanation of how difficult it is to live life out of her time, but love for Jamie is what pulled her there, pulled Bree and Roger there, and if he'd been unfaithful it would make her choice a foolish one, just resonated with me. Very very powerful scene and Cait was wonderful performing it. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by cardigirl

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, cardigirl said:

Claire's speech to Jamie about how she doesn't belong "here," meaning the 18th century, was one of my most favorite scenes ever. I don't know if that is in the book, but her explanation of how difficult it is to live life out of her time, but love for Jamie is what pulled her there, pulled Bri and Roger there, and if he'd been unfaithful it would make her choice a foolish one, just resonated with me. Very very powerful scene and Cait was wonderful performing it. 

I don’t think those lines were in the buik. But those who read them multiple times and even more recently, may be able to confirm. All I remember reading and 🙄🙄🙄 at how Claire left the house and ran down like a teenager, with Jamie running after her to tell her Malva was lying. It was ridiculous.

[Haleth]

Catriona was superb in that scene. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

I did love the parallel between Claire telling Jamie how he tried to die on her last season  with Jamie saying the same thing to Claire after she recovered in this episode.

I just ❤️ 💕 💗 ❤️ these two, and moreso with Sam and Cait in the roles.

[WatchrTina]

Does anyone remember the movie "Clue"?  In it the late, great Madeline Kahn has a line where she says "I hate him SOOOO MUCH . . . it's like . . . FLAMES . . . flames coming from the sides of my head . . ."

That's how I feel about Book!Malva.  As such, I could not make myself watch tonight's episode because I suspect she's gonna be a major player in it (based on what I recollect about the source material.)

Maybe tomorrow.

Edited April 11, 2022 by WatchrTina

[Noneofyourbusiness]

2 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Does anyone remember the movie "Clue"?  In it the late, great Madeline Kahn has a line where she says "I hate him SOOOO MUCH . . . it's like . . . FLAMES . . . flames coming from the sides of my head . . .

One of my favorite films! Have it on DVD with all the endings.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[FnkyChkn34]

9 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And it seems starting with this episode that they may have been filmed after Cait had her baby? She looked considerably thinner. And Jamie’s lines about her weight loss and the loss of her “arse” which he’s always been fond of (😅😅😅) coincided with this plot.

 

4 hours ago, sas616 said:

They cut filming short partly due to Cait's pregnancy.   They never returned to filming after the baby was born.   So, she was pregnant throughout this episode.

I'm guessing they filmed out of order and did these scenes before Cait was showing, or they are using body doubles and CGI. There were a few scenes where she looked like her usual self, and a few where the apron was hiding a small bump. Probably a combo of all three options. 

[nodorothyparker]

8 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Claire's speech to Jamie about how she doesn't belong "here," meaning the 18th century, was one of my most favorite scenes ever. I don't know if that is in the book, but her explanation of how difficult it is to live life out of her time, but love for Jamie is what pulled her there, pulled Bri and Roger there, and if he'd been unfaithful it would make her choice a foolish one, just resonated with me. Very very powerful scene and Cait was wonderful performing it. 

That entire scene, starting with Jamie saying he won't apologize for something he didn't do and he can't say he's sorry without looking like he did, is lifted almost line for line from the book. I love the entire exchange too for how well it distills the entire Outlander story down to this one point. Going back and skimming recently I've been struck by how much of the dialogue and small bits of things the show has kept this season where in some of the earlier seasons whole stretches felt more like they were painting more broadly within the book outlines.

[Haleth]

6 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

 

I'm guessing they filmed out of order and did these scenes before Cait was showing, or they are using body doubles and CGI. There were a few scenes where she looked like her usual self, and a few where the apron was hiding a small bump. Probably a combo of all three options. 

She must not have gotten very big during her pregnancy.  While it's obvious they are hiding her tummy with the aprons and coats, she doesn't look all that pregnant.  If I hadn't known I might not have suspected.

Note to self:  If someone is really mad at you, confess to something small and innocuous.  Mary MacNabb.  Ha!

Edited April 11, 2022 by Haleth

[jacourt]

I read somewhere that they filmed scenes out of sequence because of the pregnancy.  That maybe why sometimes its obvious and others not.

[ch1]

58 minutes ago, Haleth said:

She must not have gotten very big during her pregnancy.  While it's obvious they are hiding her tummy with the aprons and coats, she doesn't look all that pregnant.  If I hadn't known I might not have suspected.

Note to self:  If someone is really mad at you, confess to something small and innocuous.  Mary MacNabb.  Ha!

The most obvious that CB has shown was in last week’s episode in the scene in the inn while she was unpacking.  You got a few glimpses of her belly before the camera changed the angle.  
 

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

She must not have gotten very big during her pregnancy.  While it's obvious they are hiding her tummy with the aprons and coats, she doesn't look all that pregnant.  If I hadn't known I might not have suspected.

Note to self:  If someone is really mad at you, confess to something small and innocuous.  Mary MacNabb.  Ha!

Ha! Mary MacNabb. 
 

Well Cait is taller(5’9 or 5’10) and taller women have longer torsos so sometimes they don’t show as much. 
 

 There were certain scenes to me, 2-3 episodes ago where even the costuming couldn’t hide her stomach. Her face was so full in the scene where they had sex in the barn, she looked so pretty radiant and glowing (and younger, Cait isn’t old but she’s not 25 any more).  
 

But yes, shows and movies don’t film in order- you have to think of schedules, the weather for outdoor scenes etc. 

[cardigirl]

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

That entire scene, starting with Jamie saying he won't apologize for something he didn't do and he can't say he's sorry without looking like he did, is lifted almost line for line from the book. I love the entire exchange too for how well it distills the entire Outlander story down to this one point. Going back and skimming recently I've been struck by how much of the dialogue and small bits of things the show has kept this season where in some of the earlier seasons whole stretches felt more like they were painting more broadly within the book outlines.

Then she is a better writer than I often give her credit for. 😜 I have not read all of the books, but I might be tempted to read this one. 

That scene was exactly has you described it, distilling the entire story to that one point.  I love the time travel aspect of the story, which is often forgotten (it seems to me) and the tug Claire must feel for her own time vs. living with Jamie (king of men or no).

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

Then she is a better writer than I often give her credit for. 😜 I have not read all of the books, but I might be tempted to read this one. 

That scene was exactly has you described it, distilling the entire story to that one point.  I love the time travel aspect of the story, which is often forgotten (it seems to me) and the tug Claire must feel for her own time vs. living with Jamie (king of men or no).

No, she's not. Gabaldon is good at...character moments/dialogue. But her writing as a whole? Blech.

We know from the pilot, in Claire's voiceover, that had she the choice to do it all again, she would "make the same choice." I swear, I don't remember the lines about how she doesn't belong in "this time" from the buik. And I remember reading and utterly rolling my eyes, metaphorically and literally, when Jamie goes chasing after Claire.

And we know the writers have moved scenes and plots between last season and this season. 

And mebbe I should post this in the Unpopular thread, but I am never ever, ever, ever, ever going to feel sorry for hosebeast No. 2, Malva, or have any empathy for her. Aye, I'm a mean, cold-harted wench.

[CountryGirl]

Perhaps UO, but this has been a very weak season for me.

Other than getting a bit of storyline for Fergus and Marsali (which was a damn tease as they were soon shipped off to New Bern) and Ian's backstory, this season has d-r-a-g-g-e-d. I found myself watching the clock last night, which I almost never have done through the show's run thus far.

I'm sick of Claire and the ether.

I did not need a plague episode, not that I would ever need one and especially not while we are still in the midst of a pandemic.

I couldn't care less about Malva and baby-daddy drama. The way the episode came off, it didn't appear that Roger had revealed to Bree/company about Malva's tryst in the church but then Claire mentions it casually. The reveal that she had slept with Ian as well was a little bit more interesting but not all that surprising, given how she was hanging around with him and he was obviously attracted to her.

Then, the scenes I wanted to see - the Sons of Liberty discussions - we get a few lines of dialogue after Jamie returns. Show should be capitalizing on this rich history, with the revolution about to explode, not boring us with soap opera melodrama. We don't have time for all of this nonsense, with only two episodes left. I have been saying a lot of "get on with it!" this season.

And apparently the final scene of the previous episode was just dropped in there.

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

it didn't appear that Roger had revealed to Bree/company about Malva's tryst in the church but then Claire mentions it casually.

It took place in OffScreensville, after Malva dropped her bomb. Like I posted up thread, since Roger was just outside, he should have come in to let Tom and Allan know that Malva was lying and she threatened blackmail if he told anyone.

 

[CountryGirl]

21 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

It took place in OffScreensville, after Malva dropped her bomb. Like I posted up thread, since Roger was just outside, he should have come in to let Tom and Allan know that Malva was lying and she threatened blackmail if he told anyone.

 

I kept waiting for Roger to come in, call her bluff, and expose her. But even though he was right outside, nope. 

Now, we have to deal with "Who Killed Malva?" and sorry, I have to care about Malva to care about that kind of plot.

[SassAndSnacks]

Ok, this was a lot.  Like, a lot A LOT.  I've read ABOSAA probably 5 or 6 times, and it is in my Top 2 or 3 of the entire book series.  I hate the whole Malva plot, but I was foolishly looking forward to this episode because I love reading about Jamie being so terrified for Claire's health and the incredible conversation they have in the woods after the Malva reveal.  But...this one, I was really disappointed.  

This episode bothered me more than Never My Love, which is crazy, right?!  Because abduction and repeated assault and rape are really freaking disturbing, but THIS episode woke me up twice last night because it was so unsettling.  

My random thoughts as I watched - 

- Claire - "Whatever you do, don't touch your face!"  Lizzie - <touches face> Felt like I was watching one of my children not listen to me.

- Ugh...  Really missed Marsali frantically trying to nurse the MacNeill baby back to life.  It was jarring to me that she wasn't there, and I didn't like Malva taking on that job.  I suppose it was meaningful that a baby dying in her arms and her baby dying bookended the episode, but I will choose Marsali over Malva 10 out of 10 times.  Always.

- Oof.  Back to the old new theme song.  No, thanks.

- Again with the snakes.  I fucking hate snakes.  Why, Show?!  Oh, are we likening Malva to a snake?  That's a little on the nose, no?  Claire's fever dream was super cheesy.  They could have done better there.

- I want Claire to be sicker and for Jamie to be more beside himself.  He doesn't seem as concerned as he should be.  BuikJamie is sick with grief and worry.  ShowJamie is joking it up with Malva downstairs whilst his wife fights for her life.  Dinna like it AT ALL.  My JAMMF WOULD. NEVER.

- Claire's hair!  I fucking hate Malva.  I don't care.  All of these Malva sympathizers...pfft.  She is wretched.  

- But Roger, so sweet to Claire.  So loving and caring, positive and calm.  Too bad you're worthless in a few minutes when you stand outside while ridiculous accusations are thrown around and you don't come in and reveal what you saw.

- The scene where Claire visited Tom was really weak.  This was so revealing in the Buik.  There, you can tell that Tom cares for Claire.  He is genuinely concerned for her health, her recovery, and what happened to them.  He's more open to her questions about how they were both sick with something different than everyone else.  Here, he's like GTFO.  Dinna like it.

- Overall, the Malva baby reveal went better than I thought it would.  I thought it was well played by everyone, but I actually hated the aftermath.  The confrontation scene between Jamie and Claire is my favorite part of the whole book, because there is so much emotion and so much is said.  We get a glimpse into Claire's insecurities because of the life she lived with Frank, and we get this beautiful dialogue between J&C.  Cait here was wonderful, but I felt like Sam was phoning it in (all episode really).  I love that in the Buik, she runs off into the woods to get away from everyone and to process what just happened.  Here, they are having this deeply personal exchange in a more public space, and it didn't give the scene the intimacy is needed.  And the Mary McNabb bit was so stupid.  Unnecessary melodrama.

- Claire looked incredible having the wee dram with Jamie when he returned from the convention.  Season 1 hair, gorgeous lighting and robe.  Made my heart break when she mentioned that she was "getting by" or something to that effect.  Showing her loneliness and feeling of uselessness was so sad.  Who is Claire if she isn't helping people?  

- I'm over this ether bullshit.  So Malva was on her way to confess, triggering Claire and she turns to the ether instead of opening the door to Malva.  I guess we're to assume that had she opened the door, she would have saved Malva's life.  And I guess we're to assume (or eventually see) that Claire will blame herself for Malva's death.  

- I'll say it again.  I'll never understand why they put up with awful tenants who treat them like shit.  

- I think we could have done without the impromptu c-section.  Can you imagine being pregnant Cait and having to act that out for hours on end?

Ugh.  Sometimes, I wish I wasn't a bookreader, because I know the hell that comes next for Claire.  After this one, I'm not sure I can sit through the accusations, the raid on the house, and the imprisonment.  I mean, I will, but still...

19 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And I was also expecting Roger to come into the room and call Malva a fucking liar. But…PLOT! typical of Graphia.

That would have been so much better.

18 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

The show wisely prefaced all of this with the lovely bedroom talk about faithfulness that really highlighted the characters' history and chemistry, which in turn really helped sell the later stable scene of Claire declaring that of course she believes Jamie, that they're all in this space out of their own time for any of this to be happening in the first place because "I loved you more than the life that was mine." All the book running hither and yon aside, I've always liked that talk that gets to the heart of the Outlander story.

These scenes were lovely.  Bolded comment gives me a lump in my throat.  Cait nailed that dialogue.

18 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Jamie is being depicted as TOTALLY clueless about her PTSD, and seeing fucking liars who lie. Where’s Murtagh when you need him, to slap Jamie upside his heid?

This.  This is the man who tracked her period FFS.  He can't tell that she's been sniffing ether?  Also, can no one smell this on her?  I'm sure she consistently smells of medical things, but to continuously smell of ether even when she isn't making it or treating someone with it?  I don't know.

13 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Claire's speech to Jamie about how she doesn't belong "here," meaning the 18th century, was one of my most favorite scenes ever. I don't know if that is in the book, but her explanation of how difficult it is to live life out of her time, but love for Jamie is what pulled her there, pulled Bri and Roger there, and if he'd been unfaithful it would make her choice a foolish one, just resonated with me. Very very powerful scene and Cait was wonderful performing it. 

I watch her play this role, and I cannot believe that she doesn't get even more attention for how amazing she is.  The dialogue in this scene is some of DG's very best work. 

2 hours ago, cardigirl said:

but I might be tempted to read this one. 

This is one of the better ones, imo.  A lot of action, decent flow, not as much minute ramblings about random stuff. 

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And mebbe I should post this in the Unpopular thread, but I am never ever, ever, ever, ever going to feel sorry for hosebeast No. 2, Malva, or have any empathy for her. Aye, I'm a mean, cold-harted wench.

In addition to TeamShallow, we can also join each other in TeamColdHartedWench, if that's the case.  I have no empathy for this girl.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

11 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

I want Claire to be sicker and for Jamie to be more beside himself.  He doesn't seem as concerned as he should be.  BuikJamie is sick with grief and worry.  ShowJamie is joking it up with Malva downstairs whilst his wife fights for her life.  Dinna like it AT ALL.  My JAMMF WOULD. NEVER.

THIS SAE, SAE MUUUCH! Just that one piddly scene of him holding her hand betwixt his? Fuck you, Graphia.

11 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

The confrontation scene between Jamie and Claire is my favorite part of the whole book, because there is so much emotion and so much is said.  We get a glimpse into Claire's insecurities because of the life she lived with Frank, and we get this beautiful dialogue between J&C.  Cait here was wonderful, but I felt like Sam was phoning it in (all episode really).  I love that in the Buik, she runs off into the woods to get away from everyone and to process what just happened.

I hated her running into the woods like a fucking teenager, but after that, the dialogue between them was wonderful. I'm blaming Toni Graphia. She fucking wrote this episode.

She can do better because she also wrote for Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman, and ye all ken the amazing scenes between Michaela and Sully!

I had to like yer entire post, because I agreed wi' most of it.

Aye, I'm feelin' a wee bit salty, today. I blame it on watching the season finale of season 2 last night, and "A. Malcolm" and "The First Wife."

Edited April 12, 2022 by GHScorpiosRule

[cardigirl]

My unpopular opinion is that I've really enjoyed this season. There have been so many intimate moments between Claire and Jamie, and so beautifully acted, that I watch every episode without fast forwarding at all. 

I know that there have been complaints at the lack of "sexiness" that was in the earlier seasons, but this season is beautiful.  I've always thought Outlander was one of the most beautiful shows filmed, even when they are in "North Carolina." 

I'll link an article I just read that I thought touched on a lot of the episode.  I enjoyed this recap.

[Cdh20]

My reading ahead has finally done exactly what I expected: left me disappointed in what should be the most exciting episode of the season. I wished I was my husband, being shocked, & asking a million questions & answering them himself since I refuse to do spoilers! 
 

Things I liked : Jamie & Claire’s chats in bed 

Cait’s acting

Jessica’s acting( I will miss you, you’re time here was too short). I will look for her in other projects. I think she was perfectly cast here! 
 

The cliffhangerish ending in the garden! 
 

Jamie’s reaction to the accusation ( truly looked surprised, & like “this is ridiculous”).

Claire ending the barn conversation with knowing Jamie was innocent because he would never turn his back on his child.❤️
 

Claire playing detective regarding Tom & her’s illnesses. 

Things that left much to be desired: the lack of seriousness that Claire was ill. Clearly no one thought she was going to die! Especially not Jamie ( The writers had to throw in his chitchat with Malva to set up her accusation because they hate subtlety🙄). I mean it came straight from the book, where we are in Claire’s POV, but I foolishly expected more. 
 

Jamie & Claire’s barn talk- why are they standing 20 feet from each other? (Is this Covid protocol?)

The timeline not being clear- I hope when Claire pulled out that baby everyone realized  Malva was much further along than she let on, & that Jamie most definitely could not be the father. Not that anyone should have thought that even for 1 moment! 
 

P.S. I highly doubt a woman like Claire would worry much about a haircut. Hair grows back! However I kinda liked how in her ether nightmare we saw her insecurities about her hair, age, sexiness. It was a good throwback to her insecurities about her looks when she was returning to Jamie & Frank had cheated on her. 

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Cdh20

[SassAndSnacks]

35 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

Claire ending the barn conversation with knowing Jamie was innocent because he would never turn his back on his child.❤️

Oh yes!  This was such a great addition to the already superb book dialogue.  

36 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

I kinda liked how in her ether nightmare we saw her insecurities about her hair, age, sexiness. It was a good throwback to her insecurities about her looks when she was returning to Jamie & Frank had cheated on her.

I thought this was so wonderful and honest.  Who hasn't felt this way, even occasionally?  Especially when you aren't feeling your best or like your normal self.  

 

37 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

My reading ahead has finally done exactly what I expected: left me disappointed in what should be the most exciting episode of the season.

I'm so sorry, for you, that you are now part of the "I love it but I'm kinda disappointed" Club but I am happy that you are here with us.  :-)  

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Cdh20 said:

Claire ending the barn conversation with knowing Jamie was innocent because he would never turn his back on his child

For me, I would rather she said she believed him because he would NEVER CHEAT ON HER. Child is secondary, as far as I'm consairned.

[Cdh20]

31 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

For me, I would rather she said she believed him because he would NEVER CHEAT ON HER. Child is secondary, as far as I'm consairned.

The point was he doesn’t need to say it for her to know it! I know we did see her dealing with some insecurities over the years, but I believe she knows his love & fidelity matches hers.

[WatchrTina]

RANDOM THOUGHTS WHILE WATCHING

The closed-caption typist is not a fan.  They wrote "When we were in Paris and we lost faith . . ."  not Faith.  Whoever wrote that didn't understand the reference to Jamie and Claire's first child.  (This bugged me to an unreasonable degree.)

They also captioned Brianna's use of the word "Da" as "Dad" and I can't even . . .

 

THE GOOD

Oooooh, I like the reference to Claire having a nightmare/vision/premonition of a "snake in the house."  Was that from the book?  I do so love those occasional hints we get to Claire's supernatural gifts.

The quiet conversation in bed between Jamie and Claire was a really nice moment.

Adso!  (Good grief, that's an adorable cat.)

 

THE BAD

I hate that in both the show and the book Claire can't really be 100% sure what, if anything, happened between her and Malva due to her hitting the ether again.  Claire, JUST SAY NO!  (Her use/abuse of that drug just feels so wrong.)  

Is it really credible that Claire would have spent that much time in Malva's company and NOT noticed that she was pregnant?  (Especially as she was played by such a petite woman.)

 

THE UGLY

Malva's death.  Ugh.  Aaaaand here we go into a plot-line that I hate with the white-hot passion of a thousand suns.  I mean, I know Claire was hoping she could save the baby but . . . ugh!   I hate, hate, HATE her attempted Cesarean in the book, though of course it was absolutely in character of her to try (with no thought of the consequences to herself if the attempt was unsuccessful). 

Oh and the false accusation that Jamie fathered Malva's child . . . I've always DESPISED that plot-line.  I was really annoyed with Diana when she wrote the scene of Claire fleeing the room after the false accusation was made and, alas, they kept it in the show.  I know that later (both in the book and the show) Claire declares that she never actually believed it, and that she was just so upset and shocked by the ugliness of the accusation that she needed to be AWAY from the Christies.  But still . . . I've always felt that her failure to immediately say "Bitch Please!" in response to Malva's accusations was out of character.  (But as a wanna-be writer I get that it was necessary for Claire to be SEEN to be very upset by the accusation, thus giving people a credible reason to believe her capable of killing Malva.)

I really DO love this book series but absolutely everything touched by the Christies turns to shit, so this part of the book is just SO depressing.  It really says something that I'm looking forward to a WAR if it means we can get away from the *&^%$#@! Christies.

Edited April 11, 2022 by WatchrTina

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I really DO love this book series but absolutely everything touched by the Christies turns to shit, so this part of the book is just SO depressing.  It really says something that I'm looking forward to a WAR if it means we can get away from the *&^%$#@! Christies.

😂🤣

[SassAndSnacks]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

I really DO love this book series but absolutely everything touched by the Christies turns to shit, so this part of the book is just SO depressing.  It really says something that I'm looking forward to a WAR if it means we can get away from the *&^%$#@! Christies.

Preach.  I would rather cross the Delaware in my bare feet in the midst of a blizzard to attack some drunk, but still scary, Hessians than to ever deal with the Christies again.  The Revolution was ugly, but the Christies are uglier. 

[NJRadioGuy]

I have one major quibble and it's far more substantial than the goings on on the Ridge. The Letter that Tom Christie was writing when Claire came around was dated January 27, 1775. January in the mountains of western North Carolina is usually a Real Winter with a ton of snow and freezing temperatures. But that's not the quibble. A short while after that, "A few months later" appears on screen, and it appears to be during spring.

Well something rather remarkable happened on April 18th of that year, that I think either Claire, Bree, or Roger Mac would have (or should have) remembered: The Shot Heard 'Round The World. The battles of Lexington and Concord, that actually kicked off the War For Independence. I'm no historian but even I remember that from grade school!

Edited April 11, 2022 by NJRadioGuy

[Eureka]

39 minutes ago, NJRadioGuy said:

I have one major quibble and it's far more substantial than the goings on on the Ridge. The Letter that Tom Christie was writing when Claire came around was dated January 27, 1775. January in the mountains of western North Carolina is usually a Real Winter with a ton of snow and freezing temperatures. But that's not the quibble. A short while after that, "A few months later" appears on screen, and it appears to be during spring.

Well something rather remarkable happened on April 18th of that year, that I think either Claire, Bree, or Roger Mac would have (or should have) remembered: The Shot Heard 'Round The World. The battles of Lexington and Concord, that actually kicked off the War For Independence. I'm no historian but even I remember that from grade school!

I think it said two months later, which would have made it late March.

[nodorothyparker]

11 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Then she is a better writer than I often give her credit for.

Gabaldon's capable of writing some really great scenes or stretches of dialogue. She writes great characters when she cares enough to flesh them out properly and not default to "oh he's just an evil rapist who rapes." And she's managed to string it all together to tell a pretty long-running story that has us all here. But she also doesn't work with an outline and it sometimes really shows. If you follow her on social media, you soon see that she writes the scenes she wants and then worries about how to order them into a coherent narrative at a later date. And good gods does she need an aggressive editor to periodically ask "Do you really need this? All of this?"

I think it says a lot that she so proudly tells the story about how the original Outlander was supposed to be "a practice book" to learn how to write a novel. 

1 hour ago, NJRadioGuy said:

Well something rather remarkable happened on April 18th of that year, that I think either Claire, Bree, or Roger Mac would have (or should have) remembered: The Shot Heard 'Round The World. The battles of Lexington and Concord, that actually kicked off the War For Independence.

Well, they're a little distracted at the moment. But they're also in the back country and remember how long it's going to take news to travel. You see it over and over again in the books that it's one thing to know a historical date and another thing to actually see it come to pass.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

6 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

RANDOM THOUGHTS WHILE WATCHING

The closed-caption typist is not a fan.  They wrote "When we were in Paris and we lost faith . . ."  not Faith.  Whoever wrote that didn't understand the reference to Jamie and Claire's first child.  (This bugged me to an unreasonable degree.)

They also captioned Brianna's use of the word "Da" as "Dad" and I can't even . . .

Same. I hate it when closed captioners get it wrong. Especially when have the characters saying something completely different that only has the same number of syllables.

[NJRadioGuy]

4 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Well, they're a little distracted at the moment. But they're also in the back country and remember how long it's going to take news to travel. You see it over and over again in the books that it's one thing to know a historical date and another thing to actually see it come to pass.

The residents of the Ridge would have no clue, of course, but at least one of Claire, Brianna, and/or Roger should definitely have remembered and discussed it with Jaime. "Ye willnae hear of it for weeks, but the first shots in the war will have started tonight in Massachusetts. <Kosh>And so, it begins </Kosh>."

I hope the start of the war becomes the central theme of these last two episodes and that the nonsense with Claire is wrapped up far faster than it was in the buik.

I find these melodramatic Dire Perils Of Our Heroes™ to be tiring by now, and it takes away from the overall storytelling. I do wish they'd move the pace along a bit faster. Just as Lady Stoneheart was cut from Game of Thrones, Malva and Tom Christie could just as easily have been dropped completely from the story, especially since the war starting is a complete game changer overall, and nothing except Tom Christie's interactions with Jaime at Ardsmuir really adds to the characters' stories in my view. And as much as we all loathe Tom Christie, the actor portraying him, Mark Lewis Jones, is doing so brilliantly. I'd love to see him on stage. He knows how to command a scene.

[areca]

6 hours ago, NJRadioGuy said:

Malva and Tom Christie could just as easily have been dropped completely from the story

There is no way they are going to give up the "married to Lord John" storyline, and that one starts here.

[nodorothyparker]

Tom Christie is also a key part of the answer to the mystery of the news report that Claire and Jamie died in a housefire that initially got Bree and then Roger moving to trip through the wayback. Every change the show has made has been a butterfly wing flapping beyond just the immediate change.

Claire being forcibly hauled off the mountain over Malva's murder puts her squarely in the current governor's orbit and catches us back up with how the Revolution is coming along in North Carolina. I assume we'll also be hearing more about current to them events there.

[SassAndSnacks]

10 hours ago, NJRadioGuy said:

I hope the start of the war becomes the central theme of these last two episodes and that the nonsense with Claire is wrapped up far faster than it was in the buik.

Fingers crossed!  The "Claire as a Prisoner but now as a Midwife but now as a Secretary" shenanigans were really tiresome.  

10 hours ago, NJRadioGuy said:

I find these melodramatic Dire Perils Of Our Heroes™ to be tiring by now, and it takes away from the overall storytelling. I do wish they'd move the pace along a bit faster. Just as Lady Stoneheart was cut from Game of Thrones, Malva and Tom Christie could just as easily have been dropped completely from the story, especially since the war starting is a complete game changer overall, and nothing except Tom Christie's interactions with Jaime at Ardsmuir really adds to the characters' stories in my view. And as much as we all loathe Tom Christie, the actor portraying him, Mark Lewis Jones, is doing so brilliantly. I'd love to see him on stage. He knows how to command a scene.

Yes and YES!  I eventually came around to Tom Christie in the Books, and I'm really enjoying the Show's portrayal of him.  

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Claire being forcibly hauled off the mountain over Malva's murder puts her squarely in the current governor's orbit and catches us back up with how the Revolution is coming along in North Carolina. I assume we'll also be hearing more about current to them events there.

I'm ready for some war action.  I know they couldn't really get into it this season because of Covid filming protocols, but I want to see some battle scenes.  Personally, I'm so excited to see the Battle of Monmouth on the Show, and dammit, it had better happen!  

[Noneofyourbusiness]

10 hours ago, NJRadioGuy said:

Just as Lady Stoneheart was cut from Game of Thrones, Malva and Tom Christie could just as easily have been dropped completely from the story

Maybe not the best example, since cutting Lady Stoneheart was a terrible mistake that made Game of Thrones more mundane and was one of the proofs the showrunners didn't understand the books they were adapting.

[kwnyc]

15 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Well, they're a little distracted at the moment. But they're also in the back country and remember how long it's going to take news to travel. You see it over and over again in the books that it's one thing to know a historical date and another thing to actually see it come to pass.

True enough...how long would it have taken for word to reach North Carolina from Boston? Even with Ben Franklin's new post office? ;-) It would have had to either been brought over hundreds of miles of roads, or on a boat down to Wilmington.

[SassAndSnacks]

24 minutes ago, kwnyc said:

how long would it have taken for word to reach North Carolina from Boston?

I could be wrong, as this was likely one of the "hmmm, this looks like a good part to skim" moments in the book series, but isn't there a scene in ABOSAA where the Frasers received a care package of sorts from Auntie Jo and in it was a batch of newspapers from Wilmington detailing either Lexington and Concord or the Boston Tea Party and the papers were 6 months old?  News would likely reach the larger coastal cities relatively quickly due to trade, packet boats, etc. and could be printed in shops there, but it would be weeks until those papers made it to the back country homesteads.