S06.E03: Temperance

[Athena]

Quote

Fergus worries about his new son's quality of life when the baby is bullied by superstitious Protestants; Claire performs surgery on Tom's hand.

Reminder: This is the No Book Talk topic. No discussion of the books is allowed including saying "in the books..." Posts may be removed without warning.

[ferjy]

That was a good episode. I like the laid back episodes, the actors really get to shine. I’m enjoying the calm before all the fighting starts. 

Lizzie must be in seventh heaven having the twins so besotted with her. 😄 Not sure if they’re going for a romance between Ian and Malva? Don’t think Tom Christie would be pleased. 

Claire would be kicking herself if she knew why Tom Christie so desperately wanted his hand fixed. I want to see her stomp into his house and crack the bones in that very hand, swearing a blue streak that she wasted her time on him. Damn her and her oath! I love the actor but what a horrid character Tom Christie is. They almost fooled me, showing a more decent side of him, talking to Claire. Then the monster reappeared. Kudos to Mark Lewis Jones for his convincing portrayal. I’ve seen him as a villain before, but Christie is so repulsive. 

Lots of Fergus and Ian in this episode, always a good thing. Well, except for the lousy storyline. Let’s hope the Fergus self pity and drinking arc is done with now. Ian’s story is much more interesting. I know I keep saying it, but John Bell always lights up the screen. Love seeing him stride in his Mohawk duds. 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

Ah, Sherlock Claire Holmes putting 2 and 2 together on Mr. Christie, and we learned Malva's mother was hanged as a witch. 

Lots of monologuing in this episode. All well done, but for a short season, you'd think they'd want to move the plot along. 

14 hours ago, ferjy said:

Claire would be kicking herself if she knew why Tom Christie so desperately wanted his hand fixed. I want to see her stomp into his house and crack the bones in that very hand, swearing a blue streak that she wasted her time on him. Damn her and her oath! I love the actor but what a horrid character Tom Christie is.

He's more an annoyance than anything. I think it was useful for him having a lot of scenes with Claire to get some insight to him, but there's not really much there. He's intractable and Claire's patience was amusing. I mean, Jamie's nice enough to read the bible with him in the surgery and  he's griping about being 'Jamie's man' as Claire is feeding him. Then he beats Malva. I think the real conflict will be that he'll side with the crown in the Revolutionary War. Actually, total speculation, but if the Cherokee fight on the side of the crown and part of the settlement does,  and the other clown with the 'Safety Committee' then the Frasers are going to have hightail it out of there. I still think the fire is their own doing. Although, again, no one is talking about future things too much. 

Roger is turning more into the town therapist than minister. 

I don't think Fergus should have thrown the drink in the woman's face, but he certainly should have told her off. 

Thanks, Claire, I'm familiar enough with the Boston Tea Party that you didn't have to tell me.  

 

[Glade]

Poor Fergus!  I'm glad Jaimie was there to stop him from killing himself; he did have such a traumatic childhood, and raising children is going to trigger that in a big way.  I'm also glad we found out that his qualms about his child being a dwarf were due to his seeing dwarf children trafficked and killed at the brothel, not "eww, it's a dwarf!"  His conversation with Claire made me think of Master Raymond though; wasn't he also a little person, who had a reasonably respectable profession (assuming he wasn't the same 'Master' that Fergus mentioned...) that Claire could have brought up?  Maybe she doesn't really think about him very much, though. 

Back at the beginning of season 3, Fergus and Ian seemed to be mates, but now they don't interact at all, which is a shame.  Fergus could have had scenes with Ian, scenes with Murtaugh in season 5, but instead they've just had Ian\Roger and now some Fergus/Roger.

I don't really buy that Jaimie would talk at length about Ardsmuir without ever mentioning Murtaugh's name once.  It makes all of the Ardsmuir material sound like so much more of a retcon now since they aren't mentioning him.  Christie would have been there when Lord John was in charge too; I wonder how they would regard each other if/when hopefully Lord John makes a visit.  This episode was trying to humanize Christie; who says he's educated and above superstition but loves to beat his kids and believes in witches such as his ex-wife.  I still hope he gets eaten by a bear or something. 

[jmnf19]

51 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Thanks, Claire, I'm familiar enough with the Boston Tea Party that you didn't have to tell me. 

I know this is an American forum, but not only Americans watch Outlander so may not be as familiar with its history. 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

8 minutes ago, Glade said:

This episode was trying to humanize Christie; who says he's educated and above superstition but loves to beat his kids and believes in witches such as his ex-wife. 

I think he accused the wife of being a witch because she got pregnant when he was in prison. 'Witch' is just something he hides behind. 

 

[goldilocks]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Roger is turning more into the town therapist than minister. 

A minister and many other clergy usually do have therapy like duties for their congregation.

[goldilocks]

11 hours ago, jqdeco said:

 I love Cesar Domboy and Lauren Lyle.  I always wished they had more storyline throughout the books.  Also love Young Ian.  John Bell always shines.

Me too! I’d rather see more of them than Mumbles Brianna. And I love Young Ian too. I also hope we see more of John Grey soon.

[LoveLeigh]

I am confused. Why was that a hole Tom beating Malva? What was that book. Tom Jones?

Edited March 21, 2022 by LoveLeigh

[cardigirl]

I really enjoyed this episode, but I did shake my head at Claire offering the novel Tom Jones to Christie. The book is a collection of earthy, ribald, exciting, and humorous stories that include prostitution and promiscuity. No wonder Christie hated it! LOL!  Maybe she hadn't read it yet. 😮 It's also social commentary, and that might have offended Christie even more. 
Loved the scene of Jamie with the young boys. I don't know if that's from the book, but it was very well done. 
 

[DoctorAtomic]

Claire lent the book 'Tom Jones' to Mr. Christie while she was examining him. But it had swear words! Good thing Claire fixed his hand so he could effectively clutch his pearls. 

As for beating Malva. Probably because he can. For now. 

[sas616]

17 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

I really enjoyed this episode, but I did shake my head at Claire offering the novel Tom Jones to Christie. The book is a collection of earthy, ribald, exciting, and humorous stories that include prostitution and promiscuity. No wonder Christie hated it! LOL!  Maybe she hadn't read it yet. 😮 It's also social commentary, and that might have offended Christie even more. 
Loved the scene of Jamie with the young boys. I don't know if that's from the book, but it was very well done. 
 

I did the same.   What on earth was Claire thinking, lending him that book?  Actually, she probably did it for spite.  LOL!!

[Noneofyourbusiness]

5 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Roger is turning more into the town therapist than minister.

I've always thought that's the most useful part of a (good) priest's job.

5 hours ago, Glade said:

His conversation with Claire made me think of Master Raymond though; wasn't he also a little person, who had a reasonably respectable profession (assuming he wasn't the same 'Master' that Fergus mentioned...) that Claire could have brought up?  Maybe she doesn't really think about him very much, though.

Master Raymond was quite short and wrinkled but didn't have dwarfism.

4 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I think he accused the wife of being a witch because she got pregnant when he was in prison. 'Witch' is just something he hides behind.

Jamie said that Tom got word of his wife's death when he was in prison, and I doubt an accusation from an imprisoned man would be taken very seriously. Unless you mean that she was hanged for something else and Tom told his children it was witchcraft.

4 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

I am confused. Why was that a hole Tom beating Malva? What was that book?

Men like that don't need a reason to beat their daughters; they do it regularly to "keep them from going astray into wickedness".

4 hours ago, goldilocks said:

Me too! I’d rather see more of them than Mumbles Brianna. And I love Young Ian too. I also hope we see more of John Grey soon.

I'd like to see Jemmy interacting with Marsali and Fergus's kids. I think that so far all we've had is Bree mentioning in this episode that Mrs Bug was looking after all of them.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Lola82]

Was it my imagination or was that some awful CGI of the basket going over the waterfall?

This episode was so calm, relatively speaking, that I found myself tense the whole time waiting for something awful to happen. 

More Grandpa Jamie please!

[BitterApple]

I don't like Malva, but watching her being beaten was horrible. She's clearly the scapegoat for Tom's misplaced rage  The wife isn't around to be punished, so she's the next best thing. 

I appreciate that we got more insight into why Fergus was so upset about the dwarfism (other than the obvious issue of being special needs in the 18th century). Heck, people are cruel in this day and age, I can't imagine how much worse it would've been back then.

I think that widow is going to end up having the hots for Roger. 

The punishment scene with the boys was really clever. I was half expecting one of them to opt for the poker though! 

Glade, I wish we'd get scenes of Ian and Fergus as well. They've known each other since they were kids and were basically raised as brothers. I don't think Ian would be this hands-off if he saw Fergus self-destructing. Hopefully the drinking storyline is done and dusted. It's not something I want to see dragged out. 

 

[Hanahope]

17 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I still think the fire is their own doing.

with the introduction of both ether and matches, i can see the fire being an accident.

Roger is moving closer to becoming a full time pastor.  they certainly could find worse, and clearly they need someone not based in superstitions, religious or otherwise.

Tom is definitely not going to like Ian chatting up Malva, whom he already believes, apparently, as a witch's spawn.

So are the Brown family and his ilk on Jamie's land, or just happened to be next to the Fraser property?  they sure seem to be in and about Jamie's land a lot.

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

So are the Brown family and his ilk on Jamie's land, or just happened to be next to the Fraser property?  they sure seem to be in and about Jamie's land a lot.

Brown and his "posse" are part of the Safety Committee whatever, that work for the Crown. He just uses whatever excuse he wants to come to the Ridge to try to provoke Jamie.

[sashabear21]

Poor Fergus, his traumatic childhood is understandably bubbling back up to the surface and poor Marsali knowing that he's not quite himself lately but unable to help him and having the added frustration of taking care of everything while her partner crawls in a bottle.  I hope this storyline is over and we get to see more happy times with them because they really are two of the best characters on the show! I also hope Claire giving a copy of "Tom Jones" to Christie was supposed to be a joke because otherwise I'm not sure why she would have done it as he really doesn't seem the type to have his mind opened by a book. I'm just surprised he didn't burn it! Jamie, Jamie, Jamie, do not go walking alone with a teenage girl and start teasing about how all the boys in the village must have a crush on her. I know it was meant to be friendly but it comes off as creepy, in literally every century it comes off as creepy.  Back up and ask yourself if you'd be comfortable with a 50 year old man having a conversation like this alone in the woods with Brianna when she was a teenager, because I'm pretty sure the answer would be no and would result in some Jamie Frasier flying fists of fury. Every episode needs more Rollo. 

[DoctorAtomic]

The Safety Committee doesn't reside on Jamie's land. I don't think it actually 'works' for the crown per se, but the crown tacitly approves of it. 

I think the Frasers whomever are going to set the fire to get out of there because I'm thinking everyone else is going to be on the side of the crown. Faking their death and getting out of there seems extreme but not that difficult. That's going to be a downer because that means the 'committee' and Mr. Christie 'win', even though they lose in the end. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

1 hour ago, Hanahope said:

So are the Brown family and his ilk on Jamie's land, or just happened to be next to the Fraser property?  they sure seem to be in and about Jamie's land a lot.

Brownville is relatively near Fraser's Ridge but not part of it. Both places are within the wide circle that the "Committee of Safety" runs their protection racket around, and so are other places.

49 minutes ago, sashabear21 said:

I'm just surprised he didn't burn it!

Well, he wouldn't do that because it's someone else's property (the landlady's, to boot) and he's not a vagabond, at least in his mind.

[taanja]

I like getting to see Fergus and Marsali's life -- all their issues and such. Because mostly they are used as filler and to prop up Claire and Jamie. I am OK with the Fergus drinks too much storyline - cuz dude! Life has been a shit hole for that poor child and I am wondering how he kept himself sober for all those years! It all seems pretty realistic to me.

Has that poor Malva girl done something that makes people hate her? or are they getting references from the book? because the show hasn't shown her being anything out of the usual except that her father beats her on the regular.

Claire mentioned something about her only being 18 years old and Jamie and Tom have been out of prison for 20 years. and Tom heard of his wife's death while in prison. So is Malva not Tom's daughter? or was her mother NOT the mother of her brother (can't remember his name)

 

[DoctorAtomic]

That's what I was thinking - Malva isn't Mr. Christie's daughter and he beats her for it because his wife isn't around. I think she and the brother have the same mother though. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

36 minutes ago, taanja said:

(can't remember his name)

Allan.

38 minutes ago, taanja said:

Claire mentioned something about her only being 18 years old and Jamie and Tom have been out of prison for 20 years. and Tom heard of his wife's death while in prison.

No, they've been out for less than 18 years. Claire said that Malva would have been conceived while Tom was still at Ardsmuir.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[taanja]

21 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

That's what I was thinking - Malva isn't Mr. Christie's daughter and he beats her for it because his wife isn't around. I think she and the brother have the same mother though. 

When the show first introduced the characters and they made a point of saying that Tom (and Jamie) had been out of prison for 20 years and Jamie mentioned specifically that Tom got news of wife's death while in prison -- I thought -- but that girl Malva looks to be about 16 - 18 years old. So who is her mother? Hm?

I figure Tom beats her cuz she isn't his daughter. 

[Cdh20]

57 minutes ago, taanja said:

When the show first introduced the characters and they made a point of saying that Tom (and Jamie) had been out of prison for 20 years and Jamie mentioned specifically that Tom got news of wife's death while in prison -- I thought -- but that girl Malva looks to be about 16 - 18 years old. So who is her mother? Hm?

I figure Tom beats her cuz she isn't his daughter. 

It’s been 17 years since Ardsmuir prison closed. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

1 hour ago, taanja said:

When the show first introduced the characters and they made a point of saying that Tom (and Jamie) had been out of prison for 20 years

The only mention there's been of 20 years this season was at the funeral, when Hiram, who was not at Ardsmuir, said he had taken care of his mother-in-law these past 20 years. I checked all three transcripts for every instance of the word "years" to be sure.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[taanja]

16 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

The only mention there's been of 20 years this season was at the funeral, when Hiram, who was not at Ardsmuir, said he had taken care of his mother-in-law these past 20 years. I checked all three transcripts for every instance of the word "years" to be sure.

Oh ok. So you are all saying 17 years since the prison closed?

 The show shows me that Tom beats his daughter -- like every day. hey! mass murderers aren't born they are made - year after abusive year - so that poor little girl probably has a lot of repressed anger. When she blows...look out!

[gingerella]

Well the only thing I enjoyed about this week's episode was Grandpere Jamie reprimanding those boys over trying to see if Henri-Christian floats. That? Was classic JAMMF Scottish learning right there! Touch the hot poker OR touch the dwarf baby, YOU decide! Great lesson learned, though it seemed he could have hit home a bit more about how people who look different from you are just like you, same feelings, etc. so do unto others, etc. etc. etc. That? Would have been a 'complete' life lesson.

I was sort of hoping that Tom would pass out and they could administer ether and put him out altogether. It was sort of amusing to see Jamie reveling in the situation, like the comment from the bible about the right hand, that was some good stuff right there. More of that and less of depressing shit, please Show?

I feel for Marsali, she's seeing her mother's failed marriage to a drunkard play out in her own life and she's too strong to put up with that shit. Also, I guess Fergus is more emotionally damaged than anyone thought, poor guy. But let's get over this hump because this isn't real life, it's supposed to be a show that's entertaining and right now it's not entertaining me. It's depressing me. I have enough depressing shit in life to, well, depress me. I don't need to hate watch a show that's filled with more really depressing shit.

The more I see Brianna the more simpering her acting is. I'm not sure if it's the actress, as so many say, or if it's how the role is written and her American accent. I wonder if we'd like her better if she spoke with an English or Scots accent. Everything seems better with a Scottish burr doesn't it? Speaking of which, Ric Rankin IS a fabulous actor, and I am enjoying his presence more and more. He's really grown into his character hasn't he?

Enjoyed the glee and amazement that Marsali had over Brianna creating a spinning wheel for her. Okay, there WAS something non depressing to entertain me, I stand corrected! That was cute and a nice reference to bringing the future into the past.

What else? Those bitter pills who disrespected Henri-Christian were very unChristian-like, were they not?

And WTF Claire?!? Giving Tom Jones to a priggish asshole like Tom Christy? What was she thinking? Unless she'd not gotten to the racy parts yet...Why do that? Just to cause more conflict? Has she not learned ANY lessons about behaving more modestly or low key in the 1700's?

And last but not least, I do not dislike the slightly haphazard Redcoat chap who brought the guns for the Cherokee. He's always been polite to Jamie and doesn't seem like a total asshole.

That's all I got folks, there is less and less to write about each season...

[Noneofyourbusiness]

2 hours ago, taanja said:

Oh ok. So you are all saying 17 years since the prison closed?

Yes, about that.

59 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Speaking of which, Ric Rankin IS a fabulous actor, and I am enjoying his presence more and more. He's really grown into his character hasn't he?

He was great in The Crimson Field, too bad it was prematurely cancelled.

59 minutes ago, gingerella said:

And last but not least, I do not dislike the slightly haphazard Redcoat chap who brought the guns for the Cherokee. He's always been polite to Jamie and doesn't seem like a total asshole.

And his name is Donald MacDonald; what's not to like? ;)

Edited March 22, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

And last but not least, I do not dislike the slightly haphazard Redcoat chap who brought the guns for the Cherokee. He's always been polite to Jamie and doesn't seem like a total asshole.

I think it's important to have a character like that because Jamie getting on the rebel side of the war will have consequences. It's easy to root against the 'committee' because they're just bullies. I'm similarly interested what happens with Jamie and the Cherokee now that he will bring them guns. Although, they probably should have asked for ammo too.

[BoldDays]

On 3/23/2022 at 2:52 AM, gingerella said:

The more I see Brianna the more simpering her acting is. I'm not sure if it's the actress, as so many say, or if it's how the role is written and her American accent. I wonder if we'd like her better if she spoke with an English or Scots accent. Everything seems better with a Scottish burr doesn't it?

On the accent, I did wonder when the  Christie’s met Claire, Brianna and Roger why they (or no one) ever asks why Brianna has an American accent given her mother is English and her father is Scottish and it is known they all came to America within the last few years. Brianna adopting an accent more similar to her family when they went back in time may have made more sense, and an opportunity to revert to actress’s own accent

[GHScorpiosRule]

46 minutes ago, BoldDays said:

On the accent, I did wonder when the  Christie’s met Claire, Brianna and Roger why they (or no one) ever asks why Brianna has an American accent given her mother is English and her father is Scottish and it is known they all came to America within the last few years. Brianna adopting an accent more similar to her family when they went back in time may have made more sense, and an opportunity to revert to actress’s own accent

I’ve always said they should have let the actress use her normal English accent-it’s a lower pitch and sounds so much more natural than her horrible American one. And it would be believable that Brianna would have an English accents as both Claire and Frank, who raised her, were British. What’s worse is in season 2, Bree is telling Roger her accent is actually a Boston one, when she meets him.  Yeah, riiiiiiiight.

[goldilocks]

3 hours ago, BoldDays said:

On the accent, I did wonder when the  Christie’s met Claire, Brianna and Roger why they (or no one) ever asks why Brianna has an American accent given her mother is English and her father is Scottish and it is known they all came to America within the last few years. Brianna adopting an accent more similar to her family when they went back in time may have made more sense, and an opportunity to revert to actress’s own accent

I wish they had done that. I often think that she’s uncomfortable doing the American accent and that’s why she slurs over her words. Concentrating on it may be hindering her acting too. 

[nara]

On 3/20/2022 at 5:50 PM, LoveLeigh said:

I am confused. Why was that a hole Tom beating Malva? What was that book. Tom Jones?

She is a woman and therefore sinful. Geillis said her husband thought something similar 

Seeing Cesar Domboy act makes me really angry that they gave him no opportunity for a couple of seasons.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

20 hours ago, BoldDays said:

On the accent, I did wonder when the  Christie’s met Claire, Brianna and Roger why they (or no one) ever asks why Brianna has an American accent given her mother is English and her father is Scottish and it is known they all came to America within the last few years. Brianna adopting an accent more similar to her family when they went back in time may have made more sense, and an opportunity to revert to actress’s own accent

Claire's cover story is that after Culloden she was across the sea in 18th century America raising Brianna while she and Jamie thought each other were dead, remember? All the 18th century characters know and believe Bree is American.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Eureka]

21 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I’ve always said they should have let the actress use her normal English accent-it’s a lower pitch and sounds so much more natural than her horrible American one. And it would be believable that Brianna would have an English accents as both Claire and Frank, who raised her, were British. What’s worse is in season 2, Bree is telling Roger her accent is actually a Boston one, when she meets him.  Yeah, riiiiiiiight.

Lol, I agree, not even close to a Boston accent. (I grew up in New England and though I don’t have one, even I could put on a better Boston/Downeast accent.)

[TV Anonymous]

So Brianna kept on 'inventing' things ahead of time? What would she invent next? Internal combustion engine?

[Noneofyourbusiness]

5 hours ago, TV Anonymous said:

So Brianna kept on 'inventing' things ahead of time? What would she invent next? Internal combustion engine?

Like Deke's songs in Agents of SHIELD.

[mythoughtis]

I know it was for the plot, but why didn’t Jamie say something  to Fergus much sooner than he did?  Why wait until a suicide attempt? Everyone knew he was drinking too much and Claire  certainly knew about the bruises.  
Claire is correct, Marva isn’t biologically Tom’s. He takes out his anger about her mother and his misplaced theory that Marva is a bad seed on her.  The whippings are hard to watch. 
It does  seem that Christie has a more favorable opinion of Jamie than he shows Jamie. At least he tells Claire nice things about Jamie.  
 

[GHScorpiosRule]

35 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

Claire is correct, Marva isn’t biologically Tom’s.

It’s Malva.

[mythoughtis]

24 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

It’s Malva.

Oops.  Thank you for the correction.  I will try to remember next time.  I will not correct my post as that would  make yours moot.  

[gingerella]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

It’s Malva.

I prefer Mulva...

[Camera One]

Well, this episode actually surprised me.  I was seriously expecting Claire to go downstairs and pass out on ether with Tom Christie in the next room, giving him more ammunition against her.  Turns out the only not-so-smart thing she did was to give Tom a book he clearly wouldn't approve of.  He is not your friend, Claire, and let's say it again together.  Don't. help. ingrates.  Or at least forget to sterilize the scalpel or something.

Overall, I'm glad we got another relatively quieter episode.  All that talk of Scotland made me wish we were there instead of the 18th century version of Little House on the Prairie.  

I enjoyed seeing more of Fergus in particular and also Marsali, but again, this type of storyline I find difficult to enjoy.  I agree with the points above that it was strange how neither Jaime or Ian tried to talk some sense into Fergus.  I really hope this arc is over now, though it would be unrealistic and it would mean Fergus goes back to being a glorified extra.

This episode raised a good point about the importance of education.  It went back to Jaime's point that religion could be used as a weapon.  Roger's sermons might change some minds, especially for the children who are exposed to their parents' discriminatory views.  

I sort of like Malva, though I have mixed feelings about where they seem to be going with Ian.  I wonder about the brother, who clearly doesn't approve of what his dad is doing to his sister, but he also backed that despicable couple who was insulting Fergus' son.  

[DoctorAtomic]

*Young* Ian.