S14.E09: Is Love on the Table?

[Retired at last]

8 hours ago, Adeejay said:

That is because Ola didn’t say “chair.” The close caption was incorrect. I can’t stand the guy, but in all fairness what he said was, “I don’t know if I need to break a TEAR for her to understand.”  I re-watched the scene because I believe the other guys would have been uncomfortable with him “breaking a chair” and most likely would have said something. 

I am SOOOOO glad you posted this because I heard the same thing. I was wondering if there was something wrong with my hearing. They were talking about being "vulnerable" and crying and that is what I swore he said. I didn't get violence out of it - just a desperate man who would fake emotions to get his WIFE to do something he wanted. It doesn't make him less creepy, but I wasn't ready to describe him as violent - yet.

Now, if he really did say 'chair' it could be that the other guys didn't say anything because they were shocked or they did say something that we didn't see. 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Retired at last

[kristen111]

On 3/3/2022 at 10:43 AM, cinsays said:

well, yeah, she asked the questions and let him talk, but no hug to comfort him, nothing.

i think production just wanted her to ask so we could see why he was so sensitive and near tears a lot and she is just cold.

yeah, and then she decides what he's going to have instead of letting him pick something easy to start with.

I don’t care if it was her Birthday or She won the marathon.  You don’t take Mark to a place where he hates raw fish.  I think it was selfish of her, then trying to make him eat it.  Truthfully, I think he’s just biding his time until Decision Day and making nice.  Even if he suggested sushi, she should have declined knowing he didn’t like it.

Edited March 5, 2022 by kristen111

[cinsays]

35 minutes ago, kristen111 said:

I don’t care if it was her Birthday or She won the marathon.  You don’t take Mark to a place where he hates raw fish.  I think it was selfish of her, then trying to make him eat it.  Truthfully, I think he’s just biding his time until Decision Day and making nice.  Even if he suggested sushi, she should have declined knowing he didn’t like it.

I think she knew he would just hate it and she likes to see him uncomfortable. 

I keep thinking of her comment when she was helping him get stuff out of his home (hey, did you know she even was in hazmat gear just to help him??? what a saint..) that if the item "didn't bring him joy", he couldn't take it. 

Well, eating that raw fish sure didn't bring him joy, so let the poor man have a burger and you go eat that stuff by yourself.

[kristen111]

I’m trying to figure out O’s and Katinas marriage.  If he wants a woman who cooks a hot meal every night and likes to clean house and do everything he wants without complaints, he should go on line and find another woman from another Country who would be thrilled to come here and marry him and do everything he wants of a woman.  Like on 90 Day Fiance.  This guy gets the girl from another country and she cooks in a wok beside the bed while they watch tv.  Anything to please him.

[kristen111]

18 minutes ago, cinsays said:

I think she knew he would just hate it and she likes to see him uncomfortable. 

I keep thinking of her comment when she was helping him get stuff out of his home (hey, did you know she even was in hazmat gear just to help him??? what a saint..) that if the item "didn't bring him joy", he couldn't take it. 

Well, eating that raw fish sure didn't bring him joy, so let the poor man have a burger and you go eat that stuff by yourself.

Thank you.  Actually, I think she is testing him.  She’s looking to see how far she can push him before he explodes again.  He has her number, and will play nice until Decision Day.  Married one week and she’s telling the world about his personal habits like it’s funny.  I don’t like her method of madness at all.

[Allison1]

4 hours ago, Retired at last said:

I am SOOOOO glad you posted this because I heard the same thing. I was wondering if there was something wrong with my hearing. They were talking about being "vulnerable" and crying and that is what I swore he said. I didn't get violence out of it - just a desperate man who would fake emotions to get his WIFE to do something he wanted. It doesn't make him less creepy, but I wasn't ready to describe him as violent - yet.

Now, if he really did say 'chair' it could be that the other guys didn't say anything because they were shocked or they did say something that we didn't see. 

Break a tear like cry (which doesn't sound like "chair") or break a tear like go on a rampage (like "go on a tear" which does sound like "chair")?  The latter isn't much better than breaking a chair. 

[kristen111]

Boy oh boy.  This stupid show is making me realize how good I have had it.  My husband never complained if he didn’t have clean socks, or if I gave him a sandwich for dinner.  Nothing bothered him.  I cooked most of the time only because I love to cook and bake.  No one forced me.  I also worked because I wanted to, not because he wanted me to.  He was just happy to come home, see the kids and watch his sports.  Now I see that I am blessed.

[StatisticalOutlier]

9 hours ago, gingerandcloves said:

I rewatched and it does seem like he says "break a tear" but what does that even mean?

9 hours ago, ByTor said:

I guess cry?

What he said rhymed with "air," so it definitely wasn't "tear" as in cry (which rhymes with "ear").  

I can read lips, so I rewatched it but there's a cut exactly when he says the word.  If I were a suspicious person...

ETA:

Quote

Break a tear like cry (which doesn't sound like "chair") or break a tear like go on a rampage (like "go on a tear" which does sound like "chair")?

If we could see his mouth, it would be easy to tell if the sound was "tare" or "chair."   Just look at yourself in a mirror when you say "chair" and "tare."  Or "bare" or "fare" or "mare" or "dare."  You can tell all of these apart, but the "ch" is particularly distinctive.  And that's the one thing we can't see.  

Edited March 5, 2022 by StatisticalOutlier

[Jeanne222]

13 minutes ago, kristen111 said:

Boy oh boy.  This stupid show is making me realize how good I have had it.  My husband never complained if he didn’t have clean socks, or if I gave him a sandwich for dinner.  Nothing bothered him.  I cooked most of the time only because I love to cook and bake.  No one forced me.  I also worked because I wanted to, not because he wanted me to.  He was just happy to come home, see the kids and watch his sports.  Now I see that I am blessed.

Me too!  I complain about him but wouldn't want any other guy.  Honestly we are blessed.

[kristen111]

1 hour ago, Allison1 said:

Break a tear like cry (which doesn't sound like "chair") or break a tear like go on a rampage (like "go on a tear" which does sound like "chair")?  The latter isn't much better than breaking a chair. 

I just watched that scene again for the third time.  He said “ tear”.

[TzuShih]

On 3/4/2022 at 12:24 AM, Yeah No said:

  I think Olaj is immature and unsophisticated, and not being reasonable.  I think Katina sees the big picture with him and compared to the other men she's been involved with he looks like a catch, so she's deliberately not having conflicts with him over this.....

To Yeah No:   YES, YES, YES!  The immaturity of Olaj becomes more and more evident as each episode unfolds.  And what's really scary - as you suggest - is that <<"compared to the other men she's been involved with he looks like a catch...">>  😬 

I'm kinda confused about Katina.  In the introductory episodes, she was presented as a "cool, club girl -- an ex-party gal who was looking for a mature guy in her future."  So her current persona (or perhaps the way Prod. has decided to EDIT her) is pretty darn weird.  (The way Olaj is acting out wouldn't even be attractive to a Middle-School teen.)

[Elizzikra]

6 hours ago, kristen111 said:

I don’t care if it was her Birthday or She won the marathon.  You don’t take Mark to a place where he hates raw fish.  I think it was selfish of her, then trying to make him eat it.  Truthfully, I think he’s just biding his time until Decision Day and making nice.  Even if he suggested sushi, she should have declined knowing he didn’t like it.

My understanding was that Mark chose the restaurant because he knew that Lindsey liked sushi and he was trying to do something nice for her. 

[princelina]

12 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

My understanding was that Mark chose the restaurant because he knew that Lindsey liked sushi and he was trying to do something nice for her. 

That's what he said.  The fact that she ordered the grossest stuff for him to eat is on her 😄.

[Mercolleen]

On 3/3/2022 at 8:40 PM, princelina said:

Me neither.  But one clue was the flower that he put in her hair when they went to a berry farm - that sounds like something they did on their own, but we aren't allowed to see it because it doesn't fit in with the weeks theme of "Word Salads About Love" - are you in love?  How do you fall in love?  How do you know you are in love?  What do you love about love?  Do you love being in love?  Are you in love with love? Enough already.  Why doesn't anyone ask why their previous relationships ended?  That's what I'd like to know!

THIS! Can we please see more of them doing activities and asking normal questions to get to know each other instead of all the handwringing about where they are on the love scale? I fast forwarded most of this ep as I read the comments in the thread. Thanks to those who watched live for saving me time.

[Retired at last]

1 hour ago, Mercolleen said:

Thanks to those who watched live for saving me time.

That's the best part about living on the west coast - by the time the show is on here, the comments have already been posted, so that saves me a lot of time and aggravation. But, then by the time I do watch it, I feel like my comments are late to the party.

[Kdawg82]

Mark is so sweet.  His reaction to sushi in general was awesome (as a person who doesn't eat sushi). We're missing a lot though where they have a brutal fight and then it sort of glazes over and moves on. I guess they make up off camera? I think Mark is smart & knows eventually Lindsay will see herself on TV and she'll see how dirty she fights and manic she can appear.  

Jasmina has Michael's number. I believe she is a classy and decent woman and she will not be mistreated. I find it difficult to NOT be on her side. Maybe an unpopular opinion but there is something to what she is feeling and experiencing.  We may not be seeing it all. I'm inclined to believe her. 

Olajuwaun needs to relax a little. I think generally most grown adults like to live in a clean home. I see his disappointment being very real when Katina doesn't keep the apartment clean.  HOWEVER, I find it a little inappropriate to keep equating it with being "a wife." A partner, husband, friend, roommate, son/daughter, parent= all those things that it could be expected from. If Katina isn't an Award-winning chef, so be it. Cooking maybe isn't her passion. It's not mine. My husband does pretty much all the cooking. My cooking is passable at best. In the words of crocodile Dundee "you can live on it, but it tastes like sh**." But my husband loves me. We compliment each other well & he always reminds me what a good wife I am. So no, cooking is not EVERYTHING & it's not all a "wifely" duty." 

 

[LuvMyShows]

20 hours ago, Kira53 said:

50 pieces of chicken for that small crowd suggest that somebody hasn’t given a party by themselves. I guess He didn’t tell her how many pieces to order.

Actually, it was Olu's decision to get 50 pieces.  When he brought the food in, he said "I got a little more than was asked" and then Katina expressed great surprise when he said he got 50 pieces.

5 hours ago, Auntie Anxiety said:

When I was a kid, women had just a few options. Nurse, teacher, secretary, librarian, housewife/mother. I grew up with one foot in the 50’s and one foot in the 70’s. 

10 minutes ago, TzuShih said:

I was lucky enough to be a part of the first Women's Liberation March up Fifth Avenue, NYC in the '70s. ...... But right at the same time, other women were starting medical school, law school, becoming nuclear physicists, etc!

Thought I'd provide a little counter-point here.  I grew up in an area with several major universities and hospitals, and there were definitely a good number of women doctors in the 1960s.  Looking at med school stats, in 1949, 5.5% of students entering medical school were women, but by 1974, that had risen to 22.4%, which is a lot of gain during the time in-between. (In the late 90s it was 45.6% and it's now over 50%).  And in 1970, women represented 10% of law school admissions.  My point is that there were more options for women than those few limited career fields, even in the 50s and 60s, but the options may have required geographic or financial advantages, or the fortune of being surrounded by parents/friends/teachers who encouraged pursuing such professions.  

[becauseIsaidso]

19 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

My understanding was that Mark chose the restaurant because he knew that Lindsey liked sushi and he was trying to do something nice for her. 

Thanks. I was under the same impression that the sushi restaurant was Mark's choice - which creates an entirely different dynamic.

2 hours ago, Kdawg82 said:

Mark is so sweet.  His reaction to sushi in general was awesome (as a person who doesn't eat sushi). We're missing a lot though where they have a brutal fight and then it sort of glazes over and moves on. I guess they make up off camera? I think Mark is smart & knows eventually Lindsay will see herself on TV and she'll see how dirty she fights and manic she can appear.  

Jasmina has Michael's number. I believe she is a classy and decent woman and she will not be mistreated. I find it difficult to NOT be on her side. Maybe an unpopular opinion but there is something to what she is feeling and experiencing.  We may not be seeing it all. I'm inclined to believe her. 

Olajuwaun needs to relax a little. I think generally most grown adults like to live in a clean home. I see his disappointment being very real when Katina doesn't keep the apartment clean.  HOWEVER, I find it a little inappropriate to keep equating it with being "a wife." A partner, husband, friend, roommate, son/daughter, parent= all those things that it could be expected from. If Katina isn't an Award-winning chef, so be it. Cooking maybe isn't her passion. It's not mine. My husband does pretty much all the cooking. My cooking is passable at best. In the words of crocodile Dundee "you can live on it, but it tastes like sh**." But my husband loves me. We compliment each other well & he always reminds me what a good wife I am. So no, cooking is not EVERYTHING & it's not all a "wifely" duty." 

 

The only thing that will make O relax is if June Cleaver walks through the door, pretty dress, pearls and vaccuum cleaner in hand and asks him for orders.

[JapMo]

I hated that Mark apologized to Lindsay. He has nothing to apologize for.  She's a brat and a bitch and a lothesome person.   

She keeps complaining that Mark isn't consistent.  I think what she really means is that on the airplane to the honeymoon, Lindsay apparently pissed off a lot of the MAFS.  Mark decided to rent a vehicle just for them so they didn't have to ride with the others so Lindsay wouldn't feel uncomfortable.  Lindsay's face beemed with joy at his gesture.  She wants Mark to continue to stick up for her and get into any detractor's face so she can continue to "be open and honest" and stir up as much shit as she wants and says rude, inappropriate things to near total strangers.  But Mark won't do that anymore.  So she whines that she's given her all to the marriage and now she's just focusing on herself, #1.

Lindsay will never change.  She loves everything about her and her life.  Mark is already over it, and just going through the motions until DD.

I think the show is becoming so hard to watch because they've had some real bad candidates the past few years...Chris, Virginia, Michaela, Johnny.

[kristen111]

6 hours ago, Kdawg82 said:

But my husband loves me. We compliment each other well & he always reminds me what a good wife I am. So no, cooking is not EVERYTHING & it's not all a "wifely" duty." 

That is the sweetest thing I have read so far.  Refreshing.  I don’t think there any right or wrongs.  Whatever it takes to make a marriage work is fine.  Everyone is different.  No rules.

 

[Blissfool]

I think Katina is not used to taking care of herself, by herself. I think she's always had people doing things for her (mom, friends, boyfriends) and is a little immature in that regard. As Olajuwon said, he has to tell her what to do. As a mom of teenagers, it is so aggravating to have to tell teens to clean their room, or to have common sense enough to buy the correct item when you send them on a shopping errand, etc. They're a little helpless. Katina is a full-grown woman, she shouldn't have to be told when/how to do things.

That said, he's being over-the-top and a condescending ass because, again, Katina is a grown woman.

Also, let us not forget, that in the Getting to Know You episode Olajuwon didn't know when to put the cheese on the burgers when they were grilling.

A very unpopular opinion, if I am hosting a party I think it would be very tacky of me to tell my guests to bring the main entree.

[Blissfool]

On 3/5/2022 at 4:55 AM, ByTor said:

I guess cry?

He did say tear*. That's what I heard originally and also wondered what it meant.

*rhymed with chair, not with beer

(I wonder if the show would have dubbed it, so as not to promote violence)

[Blissfool]

Olajuwon is upset because he has not seen Katina cry in the three weeks he's known her. In my opinion, that is a good thing, but he thinks it shows that Katina is sub-human. She then shares a story on how an ex-boyfriend belittled her when she cried so she built a tough exterior.

Forward, a few days later, Olajuwon tears into Katina so much that he makes her cry (in a public place?)

My prediction for next week is Olajuwon will say his famous It was a test. A test to prove that my wife is a sensitive human. 

[Blissfool]

 

On 3/3/2022 at 4:14 PM, Mr. Miner said:

Did Jasmina really say to Michael what I thought she said in the preview? I was nodding off at that point.

I was shocked when I heard! Maybe it was clever editing. Perhaps they were having fun washing the car. 😆

On 3/3/2022 at 6:42 PM, Elizzikra said:

Well, to give credit where credit is due, he did go pick up the food although she had asked her friends to do so and they had agreed. Maybe he did it so he'd have something to bitch about later.

That's so Lindsey of him.

[Kiss my mutt]

Olajuwon is the type of guy that will cheat on you and then tell you it’s your fault and he has a laundry list of faults at the ready for Katina.  It makes me sad that he is considered an improvement. 

[Elizzikra]

Quote

The only thing that will make O relax is if June Cleaver walks through the door, pretty dress, pearls and vaccuum cleaner in hand and asks him for orders.

Eh - he'd probably bitch that she should already know what to do.

Quote

A very unpopular opinion, if I am hosting a party I think it would be very tacky of me to tell my guests to bring the main entree.

Mostly I agree. If I'm hosting, it's on me to provide everything. BUT I can see Katina, who works from home, asking a friend to pick something up that she has ordered and paid for, if it's on their way. 

[princelina]

1 hour ago, Blissfool said:

He did say tear*. That's what I heard originally and also wondered what it meant.

*rhymed with chair, not with beer

(I wonder if the show would have dubbed it, so as not to promote violence)

I remember hearing that now - I guess I thought it meant having a temper tantrum, since until now he's been calmly lecturing her.

[Yeah No]

On 3/5/2022 at 1:40 PM, kristen111 said:

I don’t care if it was her Birthday or She won the marathon.  You don’t take Mark to a place where he hates raw fish.  I think it was selfish of her, then trying to make him eat it.  Truthfully, I think he’s just biding his time until Decision Day and making nice.  Even if he suggested sushi, she should have declined knowing he didn’t like it.

I have been to a lot of sushi restaurants and with rare exceptions they don't just serve raw fish.  They also have plenty of cooked food too.  And cooked sushi.  He could have ordered pork cutlet or cooked fish.  I doubt she forced him to eat it.  He didn't look like he had a gun pointed at his head.  I think he was trying to be good natured and tried it just to please her. Of course the show probably encouraged him to order it to just to create a situation.  The show probably told him it would be a good idea to take her to a sushi restaurant for her birthday but their real motivation was to play up their differences and make her look bad.  It would be their MO to do that. 

[Yeah No]

On 3/5/2022 at 8:49 PM, princelina said:

That's what he said.  The fact that she ordered the grossest stuff for him to eat is on her 😄.

Mark is an adult.  If he didn't want to eat it he could have said something.  If he just acts accommodating how is that her fault?  If he was that against it not saying something is on him.  

I still think the show had something to do with making Mark eat the sushi hoping that it would create conflict, but he just acted good natured about it because he's not one to make a stir over anything.

When I was a kid my mother and I loved sushi and I'm old so that fact that we had sushi at all was quite rare at the time but it did exist in Manhattan.  My father wouldn't deny us that pleasure just because he didn't eat raw fish.  When we went there he ordered something else.  He loved pork cutlet and tempura.  It's that simple.  

[Yeah No]

On 3/5/2022 at 7:11 PM, TzuShih said:

To Yeah No:   YES, YES, YES!  The immaturity of Olaj becomes more and more evident as each episode unfolds.  And what's really scary - as you suggest - is that <<"compared to the other men she's been involved with he looks like a catch...">>  😬 

Thank you.  By the way I meant to reply to your post about being at the first Women's Lib. march up 5th Avenue.  I was there with my mother!

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, Blissfool said:

I think Katina is not used to taking care of herself, by herself. I think she's always had people doing things for her (mom, friends, boyfriends) and is a little immature in that regard. As Olajuwon said, he has to tell her what to do. As a mom of teenagers, it is so aggravating to have to tell teens to clean their room, or to have common sense enough to buy the correct item when you send them on a shopping errand, etc. They're a little helpless. Katina is a full-grown woman, she shouldn't have to be told when/how to do things.

That said, he's being over-the-top and a condescending ass because, again, Katina is a grown woman.

A lot of men still grow up like this because of mothers that do everything for them and women have been putting up with them forever.  But most men would stage a revolt if a woman came down on them about it the way Olaj is coming down on Katina.  Plus we don't know how reasonable his expectations are.  Just knowing that he can't go to bed without sweeping the floor and is so rigid about it that he berates her for not doing it makes me think his expectations are pretty unreasonable.

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, Blissfool said:

He did say tear*. That's what I heard originally and also wondered what it meant.

*rhymed with chair, not with beer

(I wonder if the show would have dubbed it, so as not to promote violence)

Maybe it's me, but I listened to it several times and on my TV it definitely sounds like "chair" not "tear".  I hear a definite "ch" sound that's a little too pronounced to be a "t". 

Also, the only context that the phrase "break a tear" comes up on the internet is with regard to crying, but that was not Olaj's pronunciation.  I don't think he would pronounce tear for crying as "tare".

Edited March 7, 2022 by Yeah No

[Yeah No]

Also, regarding Mark and the sushi, let's not forget what a good sport Lindsey was earlier in the episode when he made her a hamburger that was like shoe leather but continued to eat it despite it looking very hard for her to swallow, and told him she appreciated it very much that he made it for her.  I think Mark was trying to do the same for her with the sushi but found it too hard to actually eat it.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Yeah No

[princelina]

9 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Mark is an adult.  If he didn't want to eat it he could have said something.  If he just acts accommodating how is that her fault?  If he was that against it not saying something is on him.  

True enough - but if she wants him to like things she loves, there are better ways to approach it.  

[Yeah No]

1 minute ago, princelina said:

True enough - but if she wants him to like things she loves, there are better ways to approach it.  

Why is it on her for approaching it when it was HIS idea to take her for sushi?  I'm still not getting how everything is always her fault.  Mark said point blank that he took her for sushi because he knows she likes it.  That to me meant he was willing to put up with it to make her happy.  Why is that so wrong if she takes advantage of it?  My husband and I do that stuff for each other all the time.  I just made him a big spaghetti and meatball dinner for his birthday (which was a lot of work) because he asked for it.  He knows I'm trying to watch my weight and avoid certain fatty foods, but I'm not going to deny him what he wants just because it's not what I want.  It's his birthday and I'm there to please him.  He does similar stuff for me.  It may not be what he likes but he puts up with it for me on my birthday.  Maybe that's why we're married over 40 years and these people are still single.

[Yeah No]

33 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

Also, regarding Mark and the sushi, let's not forget what a good sport Lindsey was earlier in the episode when he made her a hamburger that was like shoe leather but continued to eat it despite it looking very hard for her to swallow, and told him she appreciated it very much that he made it for her.  I think Mark was trying to do the same for her with the sushi but found it too hard to actually eat it.

Quoting myself here - I think the above scenario is a microcosm of Mark and Lindsey's relationship in general.  She puts up with the stuff she doesn't like about him but feels like when the shoe is on the other foot he doesn't reciprocate by putting up with stuff he doesn't like about her.  I think she's been checked out since the bowling alley incident because she felt like she was overlooking what she sees as negative qualities in him to make the relationship work but that he is still unwilling and/or unable to overlook her negative qualities in return.  I'm not saying that either one of them is right or wrong, just trying to explain what's going on with them and why.  I see both sides of their situation.  Lindsey's negative qualities are what understandably turned Mark off but his negative qualities also understandably turned her off.  I don't know if these two have a future together at this point.

[princelina]

6 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

Why is it on her for approaching it when it was HIS idea to take her for sushi?  I'm still not getting how everything is always her fault.  Mark said point blank that he took her for sushi because he knows she likes it.  That to me meant he was willing to put up with it to make her happy.  Why is that so wrong if she takes advantage of it?  My husband and I do that stuff for each other all the time.  I just made him a big spaghetti and meatball dinner for his birthday (which was a lot of work) because he asked for it.  He knows I'm trying to watch my weight and avoid certain fatty foods, but I'm not going to deny him what he wants just because it's not what I want.  It's his birthday and I'm there to please him.  He does similar stuff for me.  It may not be what he likes but he puts up with it for me on my birthday.  Maybe that's why we're married over 40 years and these people are still single.

Because if she wants him to like it, and she knows all about it, she could order some things that he might find appealing rather than everything she thinks he'll find gross for her amusement.  That's how our friends got Mr P liking sushi.  If her most important goal is to just "be herself" then she has achieved that - good for her.  For now 😄

[Yeah No]

7 minutes ago, princelina said:

Because if she wants him to like it, and she knows all about it, she could order some things that he might find appealing rather than everything she thinks he'll find gross for her amusement.  That's how our friends got Mr P liking sushi.  If her most important goal is to just "be herself" then she has achieved that - good for her.  For now 😄

I don't think she ordered that sushi for her amusement.  He probably told her he'd be willing to try it.  I know the show wants her to look bad but I'm not buying that.  Again, Mark is an adult.  Lindsey is not his mother and it's not up to her to order for him.  He can order whatever he wants.  It's not on her if he decides to try to eat the sushi and doesn't order something he might like more.  It's on him.  It didn't look to me like he was doing this against his will or that she was forcing him to eat sushi.  And even if she did he still could have ordered something else and said he wasn't going to eat the sushi. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Yeah No

[Elizzikra]

53 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I don't think she ordered that sushi for her amusement.  He probably told her he'd be willing to try it.  I know the show wants her to look bad but I'm not buying that.  Again, Mark is an adult.  Lindsey is not his mother and it's not up to her to order for him.  He can order whatever he wants.  It's not on her if he decides to try to eat the sushi and doesn't order something he might like more.  It's on him.  It didn't look to me like he was doing this against his will or that she was forcing him to eat sushi.  And even if she did he still could have ordered something else and said he wasn't going to eat the sushi. 

He didn't look forced to me. I think he tried tacos and liked them so he figured he'd try sushi. He didn't like the raw fish. That's fine - he was a good sport, he tried it and he didn't like it. I'm sure he didn't starve; he either found something else on the menu he liked or he stopped for McD's and goldfish crackers on the way home.

There's a lot to dislike about Lindsey but I didn't think this activity reflected badly on her.

[princelina]

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

  I see both sides of their situation.  Lindsey's negative qualities are what understandably turned Mark off but his negative qualities also understandably turned her off.  I don't know if these two have a future together at this point.

The thing is - I get that she thinks she's overlooking his negative qualities, but IMO she's letting them fester in her mind, so that when he displeases her they all come spewing out in a rage.  As Pastor Cal pointed out - he is afraid to really talk to her.  But since PC told him that and her friends encouraged him also - he tried at the bowling alley (they were not in front of everyone) and it just made things worse.  Maybe she would have understood it better if he had a screaming rage at a producer in the bathroom that half of the bowling alley could hear?  I don't think they have a future together at this point because of how she "outs" things meant to humiliate him when she gets pissed off.  (And I was totally on her side after his "let's slow things down" on the honeymoon.). My main problem with her, I guess, is that she "knows she's a lot" and seems to be proud of being "a lot" and wants someone who can "handle" the fact that she's "a lot" and if they don't she gets pissed.  Which is fine if she likes being single.  If she wants to be in a relationship she could try toning a few things down and see if it serves her better.  I'm sure the night after she didn't rise to Alyssa's bait she and Mark had a fun time trash talking Alyssa after that dinner.  Who doesn't enjoy that? 😄 They could have done the same with Katina after bowling, but instead they got what they got. 

[cardigirl]

On 3/5/2022 at 1:40 PM, kristen111 said:

I don’t care if it was her Birthday or She won the marathon.  You don’t take Mark to a place where he hates raw fish.  I think it was selfish of her, then trying to make him eat it.  Truthfully, I think he’s just biding his time until Decision Day and making nice.  Even if he suggested sushi, she should have declined knowing he didn’t like it.

Why should she decline?  Why must the woman always step back?  When I was a young mother and wife, I remember SO MANY TIMES subjugating my wants over everyone else's because, well, I wasn't important. If I wanted mushrooms on my pizza, I was the ONLY one who did, so, we never got mushrooms on the pizza. Or olives, or onions, or any of the other veggies I liked.  And yes, I allowed that to happen to me because I believed that HIS wants took precedence over mine.  He didn't like Chinese food, so we didn't ever get Chinese food. He didn't like Mexican food, yadda yadda yadda. UGH. He loved seafood, which I only liked, but guess what restaurants we visited the most often?  

If I had to do it over again, I would go ahead and order what I wanted, because I wanted it. Not worry overmuch about what he wanted, as he was a big boy and could choose for himself. 

Back before DVR-ing and lots of cable choices, guess who always lost out on which show to watch on TV? Yep.  

Now, we had plenty of things we did agree on, but if there was a difference of opinion, guess who's opinion won out?

I really dislike the thought that between couples the woman must always subjugate her desires so as to not upset the man. 

[Elizzikra]

Quote

I really dislike the thought that between couples the woman must always subjugate her desires so as to not upset the man. 

I hate the thought that either partner always has to defer to the other. There should always be some space for compromise.

[cardigirl]

5 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

I hate the thought that either partner always has to defer to the other. There should always be some space for compromise.

Agreed, and I think that Mark taking Lindsey to a sushi place because he knows she likes it, was a great gesture, and I think she appreciated it. He deferred to her tastes.  He may not end up liking sushi, but he might learn that offering to meet her halfway will reap big results. 

 

[kristen111]

1 hour ago, cardigirl said:

Why should she decline?  Why must the woman always step back?  When I was a young mother and wife, I remember SO MANY TIMES subjugating my wants over everyone else's because, well, I wasn't important. If I wanted mushrooms on my pizza, I was the ONLY one who did, so, we never got mushrooms on the pizza. Or olives, or onions, or any of the other veggies I liked.  And yes, I allowed that to happen to me because I believed that HIS wants took precedence over mine.  He didn't like Chinese food, so we didn't ever get Chinese food. He didn't like Mexican food, yadda yadda yadda. UGH. He loved seafood, which I only liked, but guess what restaurants we visited the most often?  

If I had to do it over again, I would go ahead and order what I wanted, because I wanted it. Not worry overmuch about what he wanted, as he was a big boy and could choose for himself. 

Back before DVR-ing and lots of cable choices, guess who always lost out on which show to watch on TV? Yep.  

Now, we had plenty of things we did agree on, but if there was a difference of opinion, guess who's opinion won out?

I really dislike the thought that between couples the woman must always subjugate her desires so as to not upset the man. 

My God.  Can we not have an opinion anymore?  They are just married and having problems.  She was testing him to see how far she could go.  Nobody told you to put yourself last.  You did it on your own.  No woman has to step back.

 

[princelina]

At the very least - the next time she yells, "I put on a hazmat suit for YOU!" he can respond with, "I ate raw fish for YOU!" 😄

[Crashcourse]

4 minutes ago, princelina said:

At the very least - the next time she yells, "I put on a hazmat suit for YOU!" he can respond with, "I ate raw fish for YOU!" 😄

That'll shut her down! 😆

[cardigirl]

29 minutes ago, kristen111 said:

My God.  Can we not have an opinion anymore?  They are just married and having problems.  She was testing him to see how far she could go.  Nobody told you to put yourself last.  You did it on your own.  No woman has to step back.

 

Of course we can have opinions. I gave you mine, in that I didn't think she was wrong in going to the sushi place with him, when he suggested it, even though she knew he didn't care for it. It's an easy pattern to get into.

My solution was to enjoy the things I wanted when my husband was traveling. The kids and I would have things for dinner that I knew he didn't care for.

The meal thing was just an example. You said you didn't think she should have gone ahead and enjoyed the sushi meal regardless of why they were there (not even her birthday), just because Mark didn't like sushi.  I'm saying, she shouldn't have to deny herself just because he's not got the most experienced palate. And it was one time. Maybe she'll go to the goldfish place with him next time.  😁

[Yeah No]

3 hours ago, princelina said:

The thing is - I get that she thinks she's overlooking his negative qualities, but IMO she's letting them fester in her mind, so that when he displeases her they all come spewing out in a rage.  As Pastor Cal pointed out - he is afraid to really talk to her.  But since PC told him that and her friends encouraged him also - he tried at the bowling alley (they were not in front of everyone) and it just made things worse.  Maybe she would have understood it better if he had a screaming rage at a producer in the bathroom that half of the bowling alley could hear?  I don't think they have a future together at this point because of how she "outs" things meant to humiliate him when she gets pissed off.  (And I was totally on her side after his "let's slow things down" on the honeymoon.). My main problem with her, I guess, is that she "knows she's a lot" and seems to be proud of being "a lot" and wants someone who can "handle" the fact that she's "a lot" and if they don't she gets pissed.  Which is fine if she likes being single.  If she wants to be in a relationship she could try toning a few things down and see if it serves her better.  I'm sure the night after she didn't rise to Alyssa's bait she and Mark had a fun time trash talking Alyssa after that dinner.  Who doesn't enjoy that? 😄 They could have done the same with Katina after bowling, but instead they got what they got. 

What's interesting about Lindsey is that I see her as more typical of a person from the general Boston area than Mark is.  I've known my share of people a lot like her from that area.  She's a straight shooter.  What you see is what you get, and sometimes you see a little too much.  She'll tell you what she thinks directly with no BS and if you don't like it, well that's your problem.  She is true to herself and lets the chips fall where they may.  While that may be offensive to some people there's an upside to this in that she is a loyal and true friend.  She will give you the shirt of her back, but just don't cross or betray her or there may be hell to pay for it.  Lindsey is not a person that hides her feelings or things about her to make other people like her.  Mark is more like that.  He is afraid to let others know what he thinks because he can't handle it if they don't like him and he causes conflict.  He tries to be agreeable on the surface but may underneath be very angry, which throws a wrench into working anything out with him.  Lindsey will not hide it when she's angry but wearing it all on her sleeve all the time can be unnecessarily hurtful and destructive to relationships.  But the upside to that is that you'll never wonder where you stand with her.    

Anyway, I think there is a fundamental difference in the way Lindsey and Mark are as people and how they communicate and it would be a little hard for them to make a go of a relationship.  If Mark had a relative that was more like Lindsey and was used to being around people like her that would help, it doesn't look that way.  Plus she's definitely "a lot" even for a person like I've described above and so that makes her even harder to deal with.  I'm thinking of one woman from Boston I knew that was very much like Lindsey and there would be NO WAY I could be friendly with her.  But her husband, who was also from Boston (and a very diplomatic person), was crazy about her.  He once told me his mother was like that.  I guess Mark's mother is nothing like that!

The interesting thing is that Bostonians like Lindsey actually have more in common with native New Yorkers, who can also be very direct, straight shooters.  We are actually very friendly and have hearts of gold but often get an undeserved reputation for being "rude".  The Massachusetts counterpart to that is being called a "Masshole".  When I first moved to CT I felt like a bull in a china shop because here people are definitely less direct and more into looking appropriate and not sharing too much.  People don't even honk here if someone falls asleep at a red light, while in NY if you are even 2 seconds late to respond someone usually honks.  That says it all.

[kristen111]

4 hours ago, princelina said:

The thing is - I get that she thinks she's overlooking his negative qualities, but IMO she's letting them fester in her mind, so that when he displeases her they all come spewing out in a rage.  As Pastor Cal pointed out - he is afraid to really talk to her.  But since PC told him that and her friends encouraged him also - he tried at the bowling alley (they were not in front of everyone) and it just made things worse.  Maybe she would have understood it better if he had a screaming rage at a producer in the bathroom that half of the bowling alley could hear?  I don't think they have a future together at this point because of how she "outs" things meant to humiliate him when she gets pissed off.  (And I was totally on her side after his "let's slow things down" on the honeymoon.). My main problem with her, I guess, is that she "knows she's a lot" and seems to be proud of being "a lot" and wants someone who can "handle" the fact that she's "a lot" and if they don't she gets pissed.  Which is fine if she likes being single.  If she wants to be in a relationship she could try toning a few things down and see if it serves her better.  I'm sure the night after she didn't rise to Alyssa's bait she and Mark had a fun time trash talking Alyssa after that dinner.  Who doesn't enjoy that? 😄 They could have done the same with Katina after bowling, but instead they got what they got. 

100 times YES.

[TzuShih]

18 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Thank you.  By the way I meant to reply to your post about being at the first Women's Lib. march up 5th Avenue.  I was there with my mother!

Wow!!!!!  Wonder if we bumped into each other.  ☺️  (Altho I must have been a few years older than you! 😄  I was working on Park Ave and 51st St (Clairol Headquarters....just before I gave up office work and turned to what I loved - acting and writing).  At 3 PM, practically ALL the women who worked there left their desks/offices and joined up the march around 51st St and Fifth.  I was so young then (tho not as young as YOU were! Lol!), and I felt that we were 'changing the world!'  Well...we sure made a darn good start!  How wonderful that your mother took you on the march!  BRAVO!  P.S.  I'm still in the city - UWS near Riverside Park & West End.  Still "hoping to change the world."  😁