S01.E06: Heads Have Rolled for Less

[edhopper]

You all write as if there is something logical or rational with these people. There are all petty, childish high schoolers whose concerns are imagined rules.

It's fun watching, but it is a farce. The dichotomy of watching Russell deal with actual problems while his wife obsessed on social standing is at the heart of how small the are.

[kristen111]

9 hours ago, Tango64 said:

Someone filled me in. I missed something.  What was the letter told the Christine Baranski character something wAs going on across the street?

Who knows?  That house and furnishings are so dark I can’t see a thing, and I have 20/20 vision.

Whats all the fuss with the table settings, and a footman for each of the Russels when they dine?  Bertha is only a social climber, not the Queen of England.  Geesh.  Too over the top.

 

 

[SailorGirl]

10 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Given so many in this cast are Broadway veterans, they really should do a musical episode.  I know it would be off brand for this show, but maybe they could do an episode where Mrs. Astor stages a musical and it becomes a big society thing to audition. 

AUDITION!!! My dear, you must be one of the "new" or just off a train from Doylestown, because the Old does not AUDITION. Next you'll be saying its in support of that upstart new opera house the new are building. . . . 
 

 

9 hours ago, Toodleoo said:

May I pull up a seat?

I've asked Bannister to set you a place. 

[eejm]

9 hours ago, Bulldog said:

Noticed Peggy referred to Marion as her friend.  I guess the boot incident is now forgotten. 

As dense as Marian can be, she has provided some connections for Peggy that have proven very helpful, particularly with Clara Barton.  The two do seem to have a genuinely good rapport with one another, and both women were in need of a confidante prior to their meeting.  
 

There’s a lot of give and take in their friendship.  I loved Peggy’s very practical throw down to Marian over the racist cab drivers.  Marian absolutely has a lot to learn, but I do think she and Peggy are believable as friends.

[Toodleoo]

49 minutes ago, kristen111 said:

Who knows?  That house and furnishings are so dark I can’t see a thing, and I have 20/20 vision.

Whats all the fuss with the table settings, and a footman for each of the Russels when they dine?  Bertha is only a social climber, not the Queen of England.  Geesh.  Too over the top.

 

 

While trying to fall asleep after watching this episode my mind got lost in the absurdity of having a huge staff to help rich people just sort of hang out and be rich. It was particularly evident when Agnes was so testy with the temporary Bannister (forgot his name) for errors that, in today’s world, are astoundingly minor.

Then again today’s rich and powerful have similar staff to help them hang out and exist/be rich, just with some slightly different jobs.  Yesterday’s maid helping a lady to dress is today’s stylist/MUA. It’s all so absurd.

[TV Diva Queen]

I really thought Mr MacCallister was going to go in on the flower choice for the luncheon. Everybody knows you do not have a fragrant flower in a dining table. As soon as I saw the lilacs, I was like “ohhhh she’s get in trouble”. And then no. I was wronf

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Carolina Girl said:

I’m liking Marion less and less.  She seems to be loyal to everyone except the woman who took her in, feeds her, clothes her and even gives her an allowance.   So in Marion world it’s perfectly okay for Bannister to deceive Agnes in a way that would hurt her when discovered.  

No doubt Agnes' pride was hurt but it's false pride, based on just prejudice. 

Besides, what's difference to Larry and Gladys who are keeping secrets from their parents? Should they also obey their parents' command about career and marriage because they live in luxury? 

There is a fault in Marian, though: she isn't interesting as one of the main character should be. I don't particularly care about her fate. 

[dmc]

1 hour ago, edhopper said:

You all write as if there is something logical or rational with these people. There are all petty, childish high schoolers whose concerns are imagined rules.

It's fun watching, but it is a farce. The dichotomy of watching Russell deal with actual problems while his wife obsessed on social standing is at the heart of how small the are.

I don’t think this show is at all satirical. Not only is it not satirical but Julian agrees with a lot of the worst nonsense.  I watched him do an interview on how Bertha was right to be concerned about herself and the party instead of the train accident.  Crying doesn’t help anyone…direct statement from writer.

 

There are absolutely people who think society is important. 
 

I think the Great Gatsby is satirical and allegorical.  Fitzgerald knows Tom and Daisy are ridiculous and dangerous. It is largely about the disillusionment of the American Dream.
 
Fellowes love this and these people.  He’s all in on critical tea parties. He writes about society because he likes it.

 

It looks ridiculous because it is not because the writer is making some larger point.

Edited March 1, 2022 by dmc

[AntFTW]

2 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

If Ward McAllister comes back, how do you plan to explain the different butler?

She offers Bannister $200 next time

[Pestilentia]

1 hour ago, edhopper said:

It's fun watching, but it is a farce.

Nah, I prefer to think of it as pretty history.

[Bulldog]

I think a lot of the criticism about the characters being obsessed with things like place settings and flowers and gloves, etc are because we are watching the show with 2022 eyes.  In that era, those things were a Very. Big. Deal., especially among the upper crust. 

We place similar importance on things today that are ultimately very silly.  I've seen people throw fits over receiving an email in ALL CAPS.   

[kristen111]

13 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

She offers Bannister $200 next time

I’m surprised Ada didn’t see him crossing the street.  She’s either sitting petting the dog, or looking out the window.

[3 is enough]

Just now, Bulldog said:

I think a lot of the criticism about the characters being obsessed with things like place settings and flowers and gloves, etc are because we are watching the show with 2022 eyes.  In that era, those things were a Very. Big. Deal., especially among the upper crust. 

We place similar importance on things today that are ultimately very silly.  I've seen people throw fits over receiving an email in ALL CAPS.   

Totally agree!  There was an incredible amount of physical labor required to accomplish everyday tasks such as cooking meals and doing laundry. The very wealthy had servants to tend to all those tasks so they had time to focus on the finer details.  Also, I think the American upper class tended to compare themselves to the British and European nobility, and were determined to show they were every bit as cultured and refined.

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, RachelKM said:

While I agree that Marian spoke rather freely to Larry, to me that is part of why they seem to have chemistry. Marian doesn't seem to hold any of the prescribe rules.  To the extent that she's more talkative and open with Larry is why she seems to have more spark with him.  Her reserve with Raikes feels more like indifference. 

Yes, her interaction with Larry was totally refreshing to me because it seemed like an actual conversation I believed somebody would be interested in. Was there sexual chemisty? Not paticularly, but that's not a bad thing for now. In m and any stories this would be exactly what sets up Larry as the true love--Raikes' sexual allure is part of what's turning Marian's head. She really hasn't ever had much of a real conversation with him--as she herself said.

Like I said on the other thread, I think Agnes can be wrong and right about him at the same time. He doesn't come across to me like someone who's being dishonest or using Marian like a chess piece. As Peggy says, he doesn't seem to have a plan at all. He just wants what he wants in this moment. He could want something else later. Larry doesn't have any designs on Marian whatsoever, and we already know he's got plans--the type of plans Marian can get behind, too. 

 

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Knowing good manners makes it easier to socialize as one doesn't need to think all the time what to do but does things self-evidently. But as young I was taught that a good hostess as well as a really civilized person is the one who, if she notes that her guest had done a faux past, pretends not to notice it - or even does the same. 

Absolutely. I always think of this stuff as the opposite of manners. The whole point is to make people feel like they're doing something wrong and don't belong.

1 hour ago, edhopper said:

It's fun watching, but it is a farce. The dichotomy of watching Russell deal with actual problems while his wife obsessed on social standing is at the heart of how small the are.

 

44 minutes ago, dmc said:

I don’t think this show is at all satirical. Not only is it not satirical but Julian agrees with a lot of the worst nonsense.  I watched him do an interview on how Bertha was right to be concerned about herself and the party instead of the train accident.  Crying doesn’t help anyone…direct statement from writer.

While I think this stuff is stupid, I'm with Fellowes on this one. I just find it irritating watching George suddenly get up on a high horse as if he cares so much about the victims. He cares about his position same as Bertha. It's not like he's sticken over the thought it was his fault they died, he just wants to make sure there's an underling to take the blame. There's a lot of ways that Bertha needs a wake-up call, but if George does start betraying her or whatever I hope he, too, winds up finding out that all the stuff he thinks is just shallow on her part turns out to have the power to bite him on the ass.

Quote

We place similar importance on things today that are ultimately very silly.  I've seen people throw fits over receiving an email in ALL CAPS.   

(Sorry my quote function suddenly isn't working) I wouldn't throw a fit about it, but there's more reason to dislike emails in ALL CAPS than whee exactly your spoon is placed next to your plate. That's why it's more widespread, imo. 

[edhopper]

I didn't mean it is written as satire. It is written in all seriousness,  that is why it is even more a farce.

[dmc]

21 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, her interaction with Larry was totally refreshing to me because it seemed like an actual conversation I believed somebody would be interested in. Was there sexual chemisty? Not paticularly, but that's not a bad thing for now. In m and any stories this would be exactly what sets up Larry as the true love--Raikes' sexual allure is part of what's turning Marian's head. She really hasn't ever had much of a real conversation with him--as she herself said.

Like I said on the other thread, I think Agnes can be wrong and right about him at the same time. He doesn't come across to me like someone who's being dishonest or using Marian like a chess piece. As Peggy says, he doesn't seem to have a plan at all. He just wants what he wants in this moment. He could want something else later. Larry doesn't have any designs on Marian whatsoever, and we already know he's got plans--the type of plans Marian can get behind, too. 

 

Absolutely. I always think of this stuff as the opposite of manners. The whole point is to make people feel like they're doing something wrong and don't belong.

 

While I think this stuff is stupid, I'm with Fellowes on this one. I just find it irritating watching George suddenly get up on a high horse as if he cares so much about the victims. He cares about his position same as Bertha. It's not like he's sticken over the thought it was his fault they died, he just wants to make sure there's an underling to take the blame. There's a lot of ways that Bertha needs a wake-up call, but if George does start betraying her or whatever I hope he, too, winds up finding out that all the stuff he thinks is just shallow on her part turns out to have the power to bite him on the ass.

(Sorry my quote function suddenly isn't working) I wouldn't throw a fit about it, but there's more reason to dislike emails in ALL CAPS than whee exactly your spoon is placed next to your plate. That's why it's more widespread, imo. 

I told you all awhile back that this is complete set up for Bertha and George to start having issues due to her obsession with society.  It has been set up pretty heavy handedly that he doesn't care as much.  I feel we have practically been hit over the head with it.  He's going along with it, that's not the same as caring.

And to Fellows credit, the details on the ridiculous at this time are accurate.  This is how people acted then regarding social rules and engagement.  

6 minutes ago, edhopper said:

I didn't mean it is written as satire. It is written in all seriousness,  that is why it is even more a farce.

Sorry I must have misread you, agreed

Edited March 1, 2022 by dmc

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, dmc said:

I told you all awhile back that this is complete set up for Bertha and George to start having issues due to her obsession with society.  It has been set up pretty heavy handedly that he doesn't care as much.  I feel we have practically been hit over the head with it

Yes, I agree.- and since Fellowes does take this stuff seriously, I don't think the lesson there will be that Bertha was wrong and deserved him betraying her because of it. 

[dmc]

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, I agree.- and since Fellowes does take this stuff seriously, I don't think the lesson there will be that Bertha was wrong and deserved him betraying her because of it. 

Agree the lesson will be Bertha was right and this party and social connections will save George from jail and ruin.

Edited March 1, 2022 by dmc

[dmc]

this btw is what happened with Jay Gould that George is based on.  He got in trouble over a market scheme and his connections did keep him out of jail

Edited March 1, 2022 by dmc

[blackwing]

Does anyone know how many episodes there are in this season?

Finally some display of a break between George and Bertha.  He's concerned about the fact that people died, that he may be blamed, and that their business may be ruined.  She's only concerned about appearances and her stupid luncheons.

So Agnes was rightly upset that her own butler lied to her and went over to help the "enemy".  If this weren't a TV show, I would imagine he would have been sacked on the spot.  I don't understand why Agnes backed down in the dining room.  Because the almighty Ward McAllister was there?  Agnes' family is very blue-blooded and the Van Rhijn family is very blue-blooded, so why would she be afraid of saying anything in front of him?  She doesn't like Bertha and I think if she wanted to accomplish her goals but not make a huge scene, she could have said something like "Excuse me Bertha, I am so sorry to interrupt your luncheon, but seeing as how I have been so kind as to loan you the services of my English butler for the occasion, I hope you can forgive my intrusion.  I need to speak to him as the footman who is acting as my butler for my luncheon in his place can't seem to find a particular piece he needs."

I also don't understand why Agnes is all aghast that Oscar may possibly be dating Miss Turner, a lady's maid.  He's 35 years old and has presumably never shown any interest in a woman.  There are perfectly good explanations why he was talking with Turner.  I'm sure he will explain to Agnes that he is using Turner to get in with the Russells so he can court Gladys.  If Agnes thinks the thought of Oscar with either Turner or Gladys is appalling, wait until she finds out that he is gay.

I am starting to truly dislike Marian.  She sure has adapted comfortably to high society in such a short time.  Wearing fancy clothes, going to luncheons, going to charity board meetings.  I would have thought her "fish out of water" phase should last a bit longer.  Instead, it's like she has instantly adapted into her role as society princess and is determined to make waves and change everything.

Interested to see where things go with Mrs. Chamberlain.  Did they purposely make Jeanne Tripplehorn look like a hag?  Granted, it's been ages since "Basic Instinct", but she looked aged and tired.  And that yellow/chartreuse/whatever colour it was dress on her was seriously hideous.  

Question:  why did Aurora and Bertha address each other as "Mrs. Russell" and "Mrs. Fane" but Aurora and Marian address each other with first names?  Is it because Marian is a younger woman?  Is it because they are semi-friends?  

14 hours ago, SailorGirl said:

I may be at a table for one, but I'm really enjoying this show. At first I was kind of "meh" about the downstairs staff, but I'm really liking that they're being presented with a lighter approach than the heavy-handed soap opera downstairs drama of Downton.

The only downstairs staff I really like is Mrs. Bauer, the Van Rhijn cook.  She is a kindhearted person.  Most everyone else is turning out to be a cartoon.  Bannister (greedy butler), Church (jealous and easily offended butler), Turner (dastardly ladys maid) , Adelheid (wide-eyed ladys maid), Bridget (wide-eyed kitchen maid with a touch of fragility), John/Jack (eager young footman), Miss Armstrong (nasty beeyotch).

13 hours ago, ZeeEnnui said:

If Armstrong lived now, she would be all over NextDoor saying all kinds of racist stuff about the neighbors and then get offended when anyone called her on it! (How dare you! I'm just concerned for... reasons). I love that Agnes sees right through her, and put her shiz on notice. 

Armstrong is the worst.  Devious and calculating and determined to be mean to everyone just because her mom sucks.  And yep, I am dealing with seeing one of those types on NextDoor right now.  Guy passive-aggressively complains about all his neighbours about every little thing they are doing, and when others are pushing back, he acts all affronted and says he is simply making objective observations.  Unfortunately I do think that Agnes valued her information about Oscar.  To the point where she no longer cared about Bannister.  Armstrong wants to get everyone in trouble to elevate her position with Agnes, and I hope she eventually falls.

 

13 hours ago, Tango64 said:

Someone filled me in. I missed something.  What was the letter told the Christine Baranski character something wAs going on across the street?

 

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

We don't really know yet. The substitute butler just handed her the letter when it came, she read it and marched across the street.

I think it was obvious that the letter said that Bannister was serving luncheon for Bertha.  Agnes immediately said "oh hell no" and stormed across and was determined to say something.  I think the only question is who sent it, and to me the obvious answer would be the jealous Church.

14 hours ago, kristen111 said:

Not liking Nathan Lane’s part.  He looks like a fool.  What is the name of the piece Peggy’s Mother was playing on the Piano?

13 hours ago, Popples said:

According to Reddit it's Beethoven Piano Sonata # 8 in C minor (Pathetique). I hope that's accurate.

Agree about Nathan Lane.  No idea why society would have given this particular man so much power.  But what makes it worse is his portrayal.  I completely agree that he looks and sounds like an utter buffoon.  I am sure that McAllister probably was Southern, but the accent could have at least been refined a bit.  Most everyone alive today has never heard a recording of Ward McAllister (at least I don't think so?) let alone know who he was.

Specifically, it is the second movement of Beethoven's Sonata Pathetique.  Wonderful piece.  The first movement should be familiar to anyone who grew up with the Smurfs (which always used lots of classical music for its soundtrack).

11 hours ago, RachelKM said:

I like this show well enough.  And I love Christine Baranski, Audra McDonald, and Carrie Coon (seriously, it's a testament to her talent that Bertha is not utterly unlikable).  But this show suffers from the same issue of pacing and curious remote lifelessness in much of the writing and directing that Julian Fellowes's last project, Belgravia. That said, I'll stick with it. 

 

3 hours ago, dmc said:

I don’t think this show is at all satirical. Not only is it not satirical but Julian agrees with a lot of the worst nonsense.  I watched him do an interview on how Bertha was right to be concerned about herself and the party instead of the train accident.  Crying doesn’t help anyone…direct statement from writer.

I for one find Bertha utterly unlikeable.  I don't see any redeeming qualities in her at all.  The way she preened when she realised that Carrie Astor was in her house.  The way she preened at getting a luncheon with McAllister.  She is a classic user and fake as hell.  I loved when McAllister compared her house to Catherine the Great's house and the look on her face was "who da fuq is dat" and had to be rescued by Aurora.  She is a pretender.

Everyone talks about how great Carrie Coon is but I don't think this part is that difficult.  All you have to do is act like a cold beeyotch and speak in monotone.  I have never seen "The Leftovers" but I saw her in "Ghostbusters Afterlife" and I thought she was mediocre there too.

It's disappointing to me that Julian Fellowes views Bertha as his heroine.  But he has never really written with balance.  His villains often seem to get redemption or don't have to pay for their deeds.  I kept waiting for O'Brien to get her comeuppance for maliciously putting out the bar of wet soap that caused Cora's miscarriage.  She had plenty of opportunity to confess in that tearful bedside vigil but never did, and then the actress quit the show.  I also spent years waiting for Thomas to get his comeuppance, but he never did.  Fellowes seems to like his villains and doesn't care if they don't get their traditional desserts.  But it's even worse here that she clearly isn't even being treated as a villain in this show.

Edited March 1, 2022 by blackwing

[iMonrey]

This is the first episode where the servant characters felt properly integrated into the main story, as opposed to being an inorganic appendage. The butlers played such an important part they finally felt like truly realized characters. I also think it's a premature assumption on the part of the AV Club to assume Turner is the one who ratted out Bannister. Church is the one who made reference to having something deliberate to do, which is not fully explained unless the letter is the revelation of that something. 

I think the whole butler snafu also demonstrated that Bertha is not quite the society expert she pretend to be. It was a huge mistake on her part to insult her butler that way and not expect it to come back and bite her in the ass. 

Bridget certainly got over being traumatized by Jack's attention, didn't she? She was almost giddy playing his cheerleader as he was getting ready to serve luncheon. But as a footman, wouldn't he have done that already? Isn't that what footmen do? 

I also enjoyed Agnes putting Armstrong in her place about trying to cause trouble for Peggy. And I love the conspiratorial relationship between Turner and Oscar. 

Still not crazy about the stunt-casting of Nathan Lane. I don't see McAllister, I just see Nathan Lane.

Edited March 1, 2022 by iMonrey

[Noneofyourbusiness]

3 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Does anyone know how many episodes there are in this season?

http://thefutoncritic.com/showatch/gilded-age/listings/

So, it looks like we're in for quite the comedy of errors. In trying to seek revenge, Turner has landed herself in multiple new shades of trouble.

[dmc]

13 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Does anyone know how many episodes there are in this season?

Finally some display of a break between George and Bertha.  He's concerned about the fact that people died, that he may be blamed, and that their business may be ruined.  She's only concerned about appearances and her stupid luncheons.

So Agnes was rightly upset that her own butler lied to her and went over to help the "enemy".  If this weren't a TV show, I would imagine he would have been sacked on the spot.  I don't understand why Agnes backed down in the dining room.  Because the almighty Ward McAllister was there?  Agnes' family is very blue-blooded and the Van Rhijn family is very blue-blooded, so why would she be afraid of saying anything in front of him?  She doesn't like Bertha and I think if she wanted to accomplish her goals but not make a huge scene, she could have said something like "Excuse me Bertha, I am so sorry to interrupt your luncheon, but seeing as how I have been so kind as to loan you the services of my English butler for the occasion, I hope you can forgive my intrusion.  I need to speak to him as the footman who is acting as my butler for my luncheon in his place can't seem to find a particular piece he needs."

I also don't understand why Agnes is all aghast that Oscar may possibly be dating Miss Turner, a lady's maid.  He's 35 years old and has presumably never shown any interest in a woman.  There are perfectly good explanations why he was talking with Turner.  I'm sure he will explain to Agnes that he is using Turner to get in with the Russells so he can court Gladys.  If Agnes thinks the thought of Oscar with either Turner or Gladys is appalling, wait until she finds out that he is gay.

I am starting to truly dislike Marian.  She sure has adapted comfortably to high society in such a short time.  Wearing fancy clothes, going to luncheons, going to charity board meetings.  I would have thought her "fish out of water" phase should last a bit longer.  Instead, it's like she has instantly adapted into her role as society princess and is determined to make waves and change everything.

Interested to see where things go with Mrs. Chamberlain.  Did they purposely make Jeanne Tripplehorn look like a hag?  Granted, it's been ages since "Basic Instinct", but she looked aged and tired.  And that yellow/chartreuse/whatever colour it was dress on her was seriously hideous.  

Question:  why did Aurora and Bertha address each other as "Mrs. Russell" and "Mrs. Fane" but Aurora and Marian address each other with first names?  Is it because Marian is a younger woman?  Is it because they are semi-friends?  

The only downstairs staff I really like is Mrs. Bauer, the Van Rhijn cook.  She is a kindhearted person.  Most everyone else is turning out to be a cartoon.  Bannister (greedy butler), Church (jealous and easily offended butler), Turner (dastardly ladys maid) , Adelheid (wide-eyed ladys maid), Bridget (wide-eyed kitchen maid with a touch of fragility), John/Jack (eager young footman), Miss Armstrong (nasty beeyotch).

Armstrong is the worst.  Devious and calculating and determined to be mean to everyone just because her mom sucks.  And yep, I am dealing with seeing one of those types on NextDoor right now.  Guy passive-aggressively complains about all his neighbours about every little thing they are doing, and when others are pushing back, he acts all affronted and says he is simply making objective observations.  Unfortunately I do think that Agnes valued her information about Oscar.  To the point where she no longer cared about Bannister.  Armstrong wants to get everyone in trouble to elevate her position with Agnes, and I hope she eventually falls.

 

 

I think it was obvious that the letter said that Bannister was serving luncheon for Bertha.  Agnes immediately said "oh hell no" and stormed across and was determined to say something.  I think the only question is who sent it, and to me the obvious answer would be the jealous Church.

Agree about Nathan Lane.  No idea why society would have given this particular man so much power.  But what makes it worse is his portrayal.  I completely agree that he looks and sounds like an utter buffoon.  I am sure that McAllister probably was Southern, but the accent could have at least been refined a bit.  Most everyone alive today has never heard a recording of Ward McAllister (at least I don't think so?) let alone know who he was.

Specifically, it is the second movement of Beethoven's Symphony Pathetique.  Wonderful piece.  The first movement should be familiar to anyone who grew up with the Smurfs (which always used lots of classical music for its soundtrack).

 

I for one find Bertha utterly unlikeable.  I don't see any redeeming qualities in her at all.  The way she preened when she realised that Carrie Astor was in her house.  The way she preened at getting a luncheon with McAllister.  She is a classic user and fake as hell.  I loved when McAllister compared her house to Catherine the Great's house and the look on her face was "who da fuq is dat" and had to be rescued by Aurora.  She is a pretender.

Everyone talks about how great Carrie Coon is but I don't think this part is that difficult.  All you have to do is act like a cold beeyotch and speak in monotone.  I have never seen "The Leftovers" but I saw her in "Ghostbusters Afterlife" and I thought she was mediocre there too.

It's disappointing to me that Julian Fellowes views Bertha as his heroine.  But he has never really written with balance.  His villains often seem to get redemption or don't have to pay for their deeds.  I kept waiting for O'Brien to get her comeuppance for maliciously putting out the bar of wet soap that caused Cora's miscarriage.  She had plenty of opportunity to confess in that tearful bedside vigil but never did, and then the actress quit the show.  I also spent years waiting for Thomas to get his comeuppance, but he never did.  Fellowes seems to like his villains and doesn't care if they don't get their traditional desserts.  But it's even worse here that she clearly isn't even being treated as a villain in this show.

I don't know Coon or her resume but I don't think she is doing a good job.  

The character lacks nuance or vulnerability.  She's one note ambition.  

There is a performance where we sympathize with her because we realize what she has overcome and see that she is doing her best for Gladys in a time where your husband was your security.

Yes we get she wants to be on the list and be number 1 but her ambition could contrast with her other characteristics

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by dmc

[Tango64]

Nathan Lane is a fine actor, but as a Southerner I am so tired of this exaggerated Foghorn Leghorn trope that is supposed to make the man from down south appear delightfully eccentric and charming. Lane takes that tired portrayal to a new level. Not in a good way.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Tango64
typo

[dmc]

8 minutes ago, Tango64 said:

Nathan Lane is a fine actor, but as a Southerner I am so tired of this exaggerated Foghorn Leghorn trope that is supposed to make the man from down south appear delightfully eccentric and charming. Lane takes that tired portrayal to a new level. Not in a good way.

I was just watching this Murder she wrote movie where they are in Virginia where I live and all the actors sound like they are from Georgia.  The South really gets a raw accent deal

[TV Anonymous]

Random thoughts:

• What Mrs. Russell did to Mrs. Van Rhiin was uncouth, even in today's standards. Hijacking one's employee without permission? Of course, Bannister was also in fault.
• So much fuss for one luncheon in a not-particular day. If the (fictional) lawyer did not have the lunch in the prescribed hour, that meant he did not et for the whole day?
• Speaking of luncheon, was it really a hardship of having just one lunch without a particular butler?
• Another speaking of luncheon, did Mr. Russell always have his lunch at home, every day?
• Mr. Larry wanted to be an architect. IIRC he was a Harvard business graduate. Did he not need to take engineering courses first?
• It is incredible to see how eager Mrs. Russell was to host Miss Astor. Of course with the hope to get access to Mrs. Astor.
• I have to say that I saw a bit of a look of defeat on Mrs. Van Rhijn face when she stepped into the magnificent dining hall.

[Hiyo]

Quote

Should they also obey their parents' command about career and marriage because they live in luxury? 

If they want mom and dad to keep subsidizing their lives, yes...

Quote

I think a lot of the criticism about the characters being obsessed with things like place settings and flowers and gloves, etc are because we are watching the show with 2022 eyes.  In that era, those things were a Very. Big. Deal., especially among the upper crust. 

Yeah, I can imagine the real new money families of that era acted pretty much this way and focused on the same things.

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I was just watching this Murder she wrote movie where they are in Virginia where I live and all the actors sound like they are from Georgia.  The South really gets a raw accent deal

Depends what part of Virginia, I guess.

Quote

What Mrs. Russell did to Mrs. Van Rhiin was uncouth, even in today's standards. Hijacking one's employee without permission?

What does one expect from the tacky and gauche nouveau riche? ;)

Quote

Mr. Larry wanted to be an architect. IIRC he was a Harvard business graduate. Did he not need to take engineering courses first?

No, but he would have taken math and physics courses. Unless he is planning to become an architectural engineer.

[dmc]

6 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

If they want mom and dad to keep subsidizing their lives, yes...

Yeah, I can imagine the real new money families of that era acted pretty much this way and focused on the same things.

Depends what part of Virginia, I guess.

What does one expect from the tacky and gauche nouveau riche? ;)

No, but he would have taken math and physics courses. Unless he is planning to become an architectural engineer.

there's no part of Virginia that sounds like a Georgia accent.

it like saying certain parts of France sound like England with regards to accents

There are different Virginia accents but still nope.  

But Hollywood thinks this

 

Gladys doesn't have any options in her parents subsidizing her life.  She hasn't been trained to do anything.  

Edited March 1, 2022 by dmc

[Hiyo]

Quote

there's no part of Virginia that sounds like a Georgia accent.

I guess, some of the southern and rural parts shore did sound suthern to me.

[dmc]

Just now, Hiyo said:

I guess, some of the southern and rural parts shore did sound southern to me.

Oh they do, there is a more Southern accent in Virginia and it does get sharper as you move further South.  It just still doesn't sound anything like Georgia or Kentucky for that matter.  All Southern accents are just different.  

But yeah in movies or tv they just find any southerner and that's it LOL

 

[KarenX]

8 minutes ago, TV Anonymous said:

• I have to say that I saw a bit of a look of defeat on Mrs. Van Rhijn face when she stepped into the magnificent dining hall.

She was definitely defeated and deflated. I think mostly by the fact Mrs Funes and her own niece were at a party across the street and she wasn’t even invited, but also at the bright display of the house.

We can knock it as tacky and overdone but it was fresh and new, and her place (literally) is so dusty and tired.

I kind of think she understood why Bannister, a consummate professional and master of his craft, took the job. What’s he doing in her house what’s she doing in her house what’s the point of her life no wonder Marian hates her… All that hit her at once.

She plays chess, a king’s game, but with the most fragile and anemic pieces you ever saw. She plays Solitaire. And her spinster son is mingling with servants in the street. She has no legacy.

Marian and Mrs Funes covering for her out of pity was hard to watch too. You just felt bad.

I’m hoping we see an Agnes Makeover and some power moves.

[sistermagpie]

44 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Question:  why did Aurora and Bertha address each other as "Mrs. Russell" and "Mrs. Fane" but Aurora and Marian address each other with first names?  Is it because Marian is a younger woman?  Is it because they are semi-friends?  

13 hours ago, SailorGirl said:

Aurora also calls Agnes "Aunt Agnes" so I assume (probably we know this but I forgot) that they're related? They're definitely more intimately connected than she is with Bertha.

[MollyB]

3 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

Although Agnes admitted to letting her anger get the better of her, I would have told Church to go fetch him when she arrived.

^^This.  In no way have we been led to believe that Agnes would go ballistic as she did.  She, in the same episode, dressed down the Bitter Maid with a quiet firmness that shows her mannered upbringing.  She may throw around a few quips/observations but they are well founded in fact, at least to her society.  This is not her first encounter with new money and social climbers such that it would make her lose her cool.  I get that having this woman and her over-the-top house right across the street is a major pain, but I can't see her barreling over there (in plain view of everybody!) only to be so overawed that she turned into a quivering lump of aspic.  And just a thought, didn't messengers wait to see if there was a reply?  Agnes could have sent a short note =heads have rolled for less= and saved herself an embarrassing trip.  I think Bannister would have seen the light.  However, if it was absolutely necessary to send her off in high dudgeon across the street, I wish she'd marched in without a word and dragged Bannister by his earlobe back home.

And don't get me started on the woman who exclaimed "Aunt Agnes!"  WTF? Agnes has another niece? No, this is just 'new money' bad manners.  The only person who showed any class at all was George, who actually stood when a lady entered the room.

9 hours ago, RachelKM said:

And Marian's story seems to be mostly drifting through New York Society being mildly affronted by the rules and prejudices she stumbles upon in her path and having the world's most placid, uninteresting romance in the face of disapproval ever to grace my screen.

Marian should be swapped out with Gladys.  Bertha could protect her/keep her prisoner and marry her off to some prince.  Gladys would have the benefit of interacting with some intelligent people who are not tramping on the bodies of others to get ahead.  Also, Marian could learn to speak in a less affected bland manner.  Bertha could teach her soooo much.

 

14 hours ago, dmc said:

I think I am ready to admit I don't like this show.  It's not awful but it's not particularly good either.  I am not attached to the characters or what happens to them. However, it can be fun to watch a show where you don't care what happens to anyone.

^^again, this.  I'm a big Edith Wharton fan and have read House of Mirth so many times that I have it on Kindle because the book wears out.  I was looking forward to this show to see my mental picture of turn-of-the-century New York on the screen.  I'm so disappointed.  I feel as if the show was written to cash in on the period and its scandals, values, etc., but the mind writing it is firmly planted in the present times.  Very confusing.

[sugarbaker design]

8 minutes ago, MollyB said:

I'm a big Edith Wharton fan and have read House of Mirth so many times that I have it on Kindle because the book wears out. 

I love The House of Mirth!  But that book and this TV show are nothing alike.  The House of Mirth is darkly serious with grim consequences, The Gilded Age is a big gooey bonbon.

[Hiyo]

Quote

Gladys doesn't have any options in her parents subsidizing her life.  She hasn't been trained to do anything.  

All the more reason why she has to obey them.

[dmc]

1 minute ago, Hiyo said:

All the more reason why she has to obey them.

Yes she stuck with no options or course of action.  Sort of like a captor has to obey the kidnapper...

[blackwing]

13 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Aurora also calls Agnes "Aunt Agnes" so I assume (probably we know this but I forgot) that they're related? They're definitely more intimately connected than she is with Bertha.

 

12 minutes ago, MollyB said:

And don't get me started on the woman who exclaimed "Aunt Agnes!"  WTF? Agnes has another niece? No, this is just 'new money' bad manners.  The only person who showed any class at all was George, who actually stood when a lady entered the room.

Ah right... I believe that Aurora Fane is indeed Agnes' niece.  I don't think it's a blood relation, I think she is the daughter of a sibling of Agnes' husband.  So maybe that's why there was the familiarity between Marian and Aurora, although I still think it odd since they aren't actually cousins themselves.  Aurora is Oscar's first cousin, but Marian to Aurora is merely a cousin's cousin.

How old is Aurora supposed to be?  She easily looks 45.  Her husband looks 30.  Do they have any children?  She looks old enough to be Marian's mother and they are supposed to be the same generation.  I'm assuming that Agnes' husband was a bit older than her and therefore his sibling (Aurora's parent) is/was probably a bit older than Agnes.

[sistermagpie]

19 minutes ago, MollyB said:

And don't get me started on the woman who exclaimed "Aunt Agnes!"  WTF? Agnes has another niece? No, this is just 'new money' bad manners.  The only person who showed any class at all was George, who actually stood when a lady entered the room.

10 hours ago, RachelKM said:

Of all the things New Money gets wrong, they don't accidentially refer to strangers as "Aunt." LOL. Miss Fane always calls her that. 

I think the women were mostly fine in the way they reacted to her. They don't have to stand up for a lady entering a room, and they covered up fo her weirdly appearing out of nowhere in the middle of lunch. She was caught being unclassy herself. 

7 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

All the more reason why she has to obey them.

Well, she could elope with some guy if she just wants an ordinary life as somebody's wife--but seems smart enough to know that wouldn't be the best move. She's found a better way to pressure her mother by becoming friends with Carrie Astor. 

[MollyB]

2 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Ah right... I believe that Aurora Fane is indeed Agnes' niece.

Thanks for the clarification. 😊 I missed her backstory.  I still think it was in poor taste to shout out like that, though.

[BabyBella94]

Almost everyone has raised questions about Raikes yet Marian ignores them. 

[dmc]

1 minute ago, BabyBella94 said:

Almost everyone has raised questions about Raikes yet Marian ignores them. 

Marian has a lot of spunk but limited smarts

[kristen111]

3 hours ago, SailorGirl said:

AUDITION!!! My dear, you must be one of the "new" or just off a train from Doylestown, because the Old does not AUDITION. Next you'll be saying its in support of that upstart new opera house the new are building. . . . 
 

 

I've asked Bannister to set you a place. 

I don’t know if Cynthia Nixon is considered a veteran actress or what, but she been given a part as a bit of a nilly or daft.  Whatever.

 

 

 

 

[dmc]

39 minutes ago, MollyB said:

^^This.  In no way have we been led to believe that Agnes would go ballistic as she did.  She, in the same episode, dressed down the Bitter Maid with a quiet firmness that shows her mannered upbringing.  She may throw around a few quips/observations but they are well founded in fact, at least to her society.  This is not her first encounter with new money and social climbers such that it would make her lose her cool.  I get that having this woman and her over-the-top house right across the street is a major pain, but I can't see her barreling over there (in plain view of everybody!) only to be so overawed that she turned into a quivering lump of aspic.  And just a thought, didn't messengers wait to see if there was a reply?  Agnes could have sent a short note =heads have rolled for less= and saved herself an embarrassing trip.  I think Bannister would have seen the light.  However, if it was absolutely necessary to send her off in high dudgeon across the street, I wish she'd marched in without a word and dragged Bannister by his earlobe back home.

And don't get me started on the woman who exclaimed "Aunt Agnes!"  WTF? Agnes has another niece? No, this is just 'new money' bad manners.  The only person who showed any class at all was George, who actually stood when a lady entered the room.

Marian should be swapped out with Gladys.  Bertha could protect her/keep her prisoner and marry her off to some prince.  Gladys would have the benefit of interacting with some intelligent people who are not tramping on the bodies of others to get ahead.  Also, Marian could learn to speak in a less affected bland manner.  Bertha could teach her soooo much.

 

^^again, this.  I'm a big Edith Wharton fan and have read House of Mirth so many times that I have it on Kindle because the book wears out.  I was looking forward to this show to see my mental picture of turn-of-the-century New York on the screen.  I'm so disappointed.  I feel as if the show was written to cash in on the period and its scandals, values, etc., but the mind writing it is firmly planted in the present times.  Very confusing.

The writing and acting are not great here.  It's by no means the worst show on television but it could be so much better.

There are a lot of decisions made here that I think that are lending to its being bad.

And I sort of have a theory...when Fellowes did Downton he was sort of unknown and subject to network supervision and notes. Notes on plots and casting...I suspect since he has made a name for himself... HBO is backing off and letting him make most of the calls. 

 And I think there is a huge difference between books and tv writing.

I think there is huge difference between tv and theater acting.

There's no way HBO would hired this Marion if they had a hand in casting.

Edited March 1, 2022 by dmc

[Hiyo]

Quote

when Fellows did Downton he was sort of unknown

Well, he had won an Oscar before he started Downton...

[kristen111]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

  12 hours ago, Popples said:

According to Reddit it's Beethoven Piano Sonata # 8 in C minor (Pathetique). I hope that's accurate.

Thanks so much.  I had it on my You Tube Library, but suddenly two weeks ago, my playlist of songs and videos disappeared into thin air.  Over a hundred at least.  I’m waiting for one of my kids to check it out.  Anyone ever have that happen?   I never deleted anything.

Edited March 1, 2022 by kristen111

[dmc]

5 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

Well, he had won an Oscar before he started Downton...

Right for a screenplay.  Not the same as being a showrunner.  

[blackwing]

26 minutes ago, kristen111 said:

I don’t know if Cynthia Nixon is considered a veteran actress or what, but she been given a part as a bit of a nilly or daft.  Whatever.

She is indeed a veteran Broadway actress and I would say she's definitely considered a "name" actor on this show.  She is the second biggest name behind Christine Baranski.  Maybe Audra McDonald has higher stature than her due to all of her Tony Awards but Audra is a recurring/guest actress on this show.

I know lots of people loved her as Miranda Hobbes the first time around but then hated her in the Sex and the City revival.  Frankly, I never liked Miranda Hobbes.  I always thought she was cold and unsympathetic.  If Nixon had been given the part of Agnes, I think I would have simply seen her as "Miranda Hobbes in 1880s New York".

So I feel like casting her as the kindhearted, sort of simple, and almost a bit ditzy Ada works well for her.

Edited March 1, 2022 by blackwing

[dmc]

3 minutes ago, blackwing said:

She is indeed a veteran Broadway actress and I would say she's definitely considered a "name" actor on this show.  She is the second biggest name behind Christine Baranski.  Maybe Audra McDonald has higher stature than her due to all of her Tony Awards but Audra is a recurring/guest actress on this show.

I know lots of people loved her as Miranda Hobbes the first time around but then hated her in the Sex and the City revival.  Frankly, I never liked Miranda Hobbes.  I always thought she was cold and unsympathetic.  If Nixon had been given the part of Agnes, I think I would have simply seen her as "Miranda Hobbes in 1880s New York".

So I feel like casting her as the kindhearted, sort of simple, and almost a bit ditzy Ada works well for her.

I think her performances here is one of the best ones

[Hiyo]

Quote

Right for a screenplay.  Not the same as being a showrunner.  

The show was sold as "From the Academy Award winning writer of Gosford Park...", so he wasn't unknown.

Also, who knows how his relationship with Carnival Films and ITV was like when he was doing Downton.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Hiyo

[dmc]

5 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

The show was sold as "From the Academy Award winning writer of Gosford Park...", so he wasn't unknown.

Also, who knows how his relationship with the network was when he was doing Downton.

A lot of people have won screenplays that are unknown in television.  

And no we don't know hence the word, THEORY.

Most networks give notes, people like Shonda Rimes talks about the notes they used to get from ABC.  But as a show becomes more successful and or you have a hit...you tend to get more autonomy from the network for creative decisions. 

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by dmc