Figure Skating

[ShellsandCheese]

1 minute ago, absnow54 said:

Hypoxen, on the other hand, sounds kind of shady, and I suspect it will be banned soon.

I know the US has been trying to get it banned for some time, but again I think that's political because it's mostly used by Russians, Eastern Europeans, etc. I know there have been some supplements/drugs favored by Americans that Russia has tried to have banned. I truly hope (and I know that it's wishful thinking) that this is a wake-up call for these agencies that major overhaul and reform is needed. 

[peachmangosteen]

3 hours ago, choclatechip45 said:

There was an 11 year old competing in skateboarding. There is no age minimum in swimming. 

This is ridiculous. 

[choclatechip45]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Raising the age really wouldn't push out that many skaters due to finances.  If that was the case, the competitors in pairs and ice dancing would all be as young as the women competing.  The men also can stay competitive longer.

That's good to know! It's been a huge issue in Men's gymnastics in the US the funding is a mess and there is almost no depth because so many quit. 

[choclatechip45]

I had USA network on while I work from home and they had Sarah Hughes on. They asked her about if she supported  age change obviously she wouldn't have been eligible in 2002. She said unless more information comes out she is against it she thinks the best athletes should be competing. 

I was in 5th grade when she won. Was her victory that much of a surprise? I live in the NYC metro area so it was a big deal when she won and obviously I knew who Michelle Kwan was so they painted Sarah as the underdog. 

17 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

This is ridiculous. 

So apparently I was wrong due to the games being delayed she was 13. However, she was 11 when she fractured her skull trying to qualify for the Olympics. 

[MaryMitch]

Someone posted this on Twitter along with the comment "give the Canadian judge a gold medal" :

(If I can find the original tweet I'll add the link.)

 

edited to add: this is the tweet-

https://twitter.com/njwiens/status/1493708934946988033?s=20&t=ACzFNKiWTaBXTaf_yfzVcQ

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by MaryMitch

[Hana Chan]

Well, add this to the "IOC completely missing the plot" list:

https://sports.yahoo.com/not-a-great-deal-of-similarity-between-sha-carri-richardson-and-valieva-cases-072235847.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

In a nutshell, the IOC is claiming that Sha’Carri Richardson got suspended by the US Anti-Doping agency, which is what prevented her from participating in the Olympics and that the IOC had nothing to do with it. Technically, that is true. But what makes Sha'Carri's case to enraging in comparison to Kamila's is that the US actually upholds the standards of clean sportsmanship that the Russians flout on a regular basis. We can argue about whether or not marijuana should be on the prohibited list (though I can hardly consider it a performance enhancing drug as when I use my very potent gummies, I'm lucky if I can find my own feet), but Sha'Carri tested positive for it and accepted the penalty with a lot more grace that I would have shown.

Russia, OTOH, delayed in having Kamila's specimen tested in a timely manner as they are required to do so that the results only came out after the start of competition. What is especially enraging is that for a country that is not allowed to manage its own anti-doping program because they've been proven to be corrupt for so long, this is still being used as an excuse to keep Kamila in the competition. Russia has done nothing to earn the benefit of the doubt that this was an honest error and the more evidence that comes out, the more it appears that there was deliberate doping going on and this was not accidental or incidental. Other athletes have spoken out about the tremendous care they've taken to avoid inadvertently taking any medications that could come up on a drug test and with there being a collection of cardiac medications coming up in Kamila's test, her excuse doesn't fly. And it's not outside the realm of possibility that all of Eteri's girls are medicated and they just messed up on the timing of Kamila's dose so that she was the only on (so far) that came up with a positive test.

By all rights, everyone from Eteri's rink should be banned from competition until this is cleared up. But that's not going to happen because the IOC is too damned dense and spineless to see what is right in front of them.

[Minneapple]

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Serious question: is there some sort of bias against Asian female skaters? 

You know, I've actually been wondering this. Yuna didn't win in Sochi; then when you see scores like that for the South Korean and Japanese skaters compared to what the Russian girls get, it seems suspicious.

[Avaleigh]

2 hours ago, choclatechip45 said:

Abuse isn't going to stop due to age. 

I agree with this. Instead of raising the age to 18, to me it makes more sense to make changes to judging and scoring in addition to putting programs and support systems in place that protect athletes from all countries. Raising the age limit isn't suddenly going to make the abuse in Russian skating go away. The problem is deeper than that and needs to be fixed in a more meaningful way.

Michelle Kwan is often held up as the standard of what people want a female figure skater to be. A long career, strong technique, beautiful artistry. She was competing as a senior at the age of 12. She went to her first world championships at 13 years old. Her career benefited from having early experience. That isn't to say that I want the age to be lowered. 16 seems like a reasonable age. (And actually being 16. Not turning 16 at some point during the calendar year so that 15 year olds are still competing in the Olympics and Worlds.) 

It's 100% possible to have healthy athletes who aren't in abusive environments. Also, there are some athletes who want to wrap up their careers before they start college. To me that should be allowed. Not everyone wants to be an elite level skater deep into their 20s. That should be okay. 

ETA: Elizaveta Tuktamysheva is another example of someone who started their senior career at a young age. She was doing triple axels at 10 years old and is still able to do them in her mid twenties. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Avaleigh

[ShellsandCheese]

7 minutes ago, MaryMitch said:

Someone posted this on Twitter along with the comment "give the Canadian judge a gold medal" :

(If I can find the original tweet I'll add the link.)

LOL. And yet every other judge had Kamila first and most had Anna second. Even the USA and GBR and Korea; so clearly the judging is no longer just an East - West split. Perhaps the judges need more education and training to properly score….maybe they should take a class on unconscious bias because I think some people subconsciously prefer the Russians because in the last they did used to have superior basic skating skills: speed, edge control, that classic ballet training - but that’s not the case anymore and the judges either don’t seem to see it or don’t seem to care.

Edited February 16, 2022 by ShellsandCheese

[choclatechip45]

16 minutes ago, MaryMitch said:

Someone posted this on Twitter along with the comment "give the Canadian judge a gold medal" :

(If I can find the original tweet I'll add the link.)

What was the NED judge smoking? Putting Mariah before Alysa. I admit figure skating scoring confuses me, but that seems weird!

[Minneapple]

16 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Well, add this to the "IOC completely missing the plot" list:

https://sports.yahoo.com/not-a-great-deal-of-similarity-between-sha-carri-richardson-and-valieva-cases-072235847.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

In a nutshell, the IOC is claiming that Sha’Carri Richardson got suspended by the US Anti-Doping agency, which is what prevented her from participating in the Olympics and that the IOC had nothing to do with it. Technically, that is true. But what makes Sha'Carri's case to enraging in comparison to Kamila's is that the US actually upholds the standards of clean sportsmanship that the Russians flout on a regular basis. We can argue about whether or not marijuana should be on the prohibited list (though I can hardly consider it a performance enhancing drug as when I use my very potent gummies, I'm lucky if I can find my own feet), but Sha'Carri tested positive for it and accepted the penalty with a lot more grace that I would have shown.

Yes, this is absolutely true. The US federations take this stuff very seriously. Sha'Carri was banned by USADA, and US Track and Field had the option to send her to Tokyo but chose not to. She could have run in the 4x100 relay IIRC. Adam Rippon tweeted that all the American athletes have to go through USADA seminars about drug testing and banned substances, and they warn the athletes to be careful, even with OTC things like cold medications and topical ointments or creams for pain. Tara said that even as a 15-year-old, she knew the list of banned substances and she was very careful about any medication she took that might get her in any hot water. Do you think the Russian athletes have to go through a similar seminar with RUSADA? Hah! Russia's probably like, "Here's the list of banned substances, WINK WINK!"

Edited February 16, 2022 by Minneapple

[Rootbeer]

More information from experts about the drugs given to Kamila.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/winter-olympics/why-was-russian-olympic-skater-kamila-valieva-using-cocktail-of-substances/ar-AATWnwu?ocid=entnewsntp

For those of you who haven't heard of trimetazidine and hypoxen, it is probably because neither of those drugs is approved for any use by the FDA and are unavailable in the US.

The article contains information about other athletes who were found to have Trimetazidine in their urine and the consequences they suffered.  Hint: none of them were allowed to compete in the Olympics including a US swimmer who was found to have 0.1 nanograms/ml in her urine and was later able to prove that it came from the brand of bottled water she consumed.  Kamila's 'accidental' dosage gave her a level of 2.1 nanograms/ml.

 

3 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Yes, this is absolutely true. The US federations take this stuff very seriously. Sha'Carri was banned by USADA, and US Track and Field had the option to send her to Tokyo but chose not to. She could have run in the 4x100 relay IIRC. Adam Rippon tweeted that all the American athletes have to go through USADA seminars about drug testing and banned substances, and they warn the athletes to be careful, even with OTC things like cold medications and topical ointments or creams for pain. Tara said that even as a 15-year-old, she knew the list of banned substances and she was very careful about any medication she took that might get her in any hot water. Do you think the Russian athletes have to go through a similar seminar with RUSADA? Hah! Russia's probably like, "Here's the list of banned substances, WINK WINK!"

During her TV interview on the subject, Tara said that the USOC has a hotline for athletes to call with any questions about medications and that she and her mother called it multiple times before she took various things, just to be sure it was ok.

[galaxygirl76]

8 minutes ago, choclatechip45 said:

What was the NED judge smoking?

Is that a rhetorical question?

[Rootbeer]

23 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

 

Russia, OTOH, delayed in having Kamila's specimen tested in a timely manner as they are required to do so that the results only came out after the start of competition.

From what I understand, the specimens belonging to those who finished in the top positions at Russia's national figure skating competition were supposed to have been specially tagged to flag them for rush handling by the lab in Sweden.  Instead, the lab says that Kamila's specimen was submitted for routine processing, no indication that it should receive any special handling.  Amazing coincidence, isn't it?

[Hana Chan]

7 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

From what I understand, the specimens belonging to those who finished in the top positions at Russia's national figure skating competition were supposed to have been specially tagged to flag them for rush handling by the lab in Sweden.  Instead, the lab says that Kamila's specimen was submitted for routine processing, no indication that it should receive any special handling.  Amazing coincidence, isn't it?

It's very sus, to say the least. And the idea that the Russian anti-doping agency should have been allowed any authority to overturn her immediate suspension is pretty laughable given the history of doping in the Russian sports programs. They're not allowed to test their own samples, but can make the calls about whether or not to suspend someone with a positive doping test? 

[Maelstrom]

4 hours ago, Good Queen Jane said:

This is the lamest thing I have heard, giving out torches instead of medals for competitions Kamilla was involved in.

How about shirts that say "I competed in the Olympics with a teamful of overscored cheaters and all I got was this lousy t-shirt"?

[kittykat]

Looking at that chart I'm giving some major side eye to the British judge.

[healthnut]

1 hour ago, choclatechip45 said:

I was in 5th grade when she won. Was her victory that much of a surprise? I live in the NYC metro area so it was a big deal when she won and obviously I knew who Michelle Kwan was so they painted Sarah as the underdog. 

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

Yes. Michelle was the definitive favorite with Irina Slutskaya being the potential spoiler. Sarah had gotten bronze at the previous Worlds but she also finished behind Sasha at Nationals and Sasha had been injured the previous season so Sarah was very much considered the 3rd American. Sarah had beaten Michelle and Irina at Skate Canada or the Grand Prix final, I can’t remember but she definitely wasn’t expected to win and she was 4th after the short program so she needed help to win.

I’m not surprised her or Tara’s opinion would not be in favor of raising the age limit but Sarah was 16 at SLC, not 15 like Tara. 

[choclatechip45]

2 minutes ago, healthnut said:

Yes. Michelle was the definitive favorite with Irina Slutskaya being the potential spoiler. Sarah had gotten bronze at the previous Worlds but she also finished behind Sasha at Nationals and Sasha had been injured the previous season so Sarah was very much considered the 3rd American. Sarah had beaten Michelle and Irina at Skate Canada or the Grand Prix final, I can’t remember but she definitely wasn’t expected to win and she was 4th after the short program so she needed help to win.

I’m not surprised her or Tara’s opinion would not be in favor of raising the age limit but Sarah was 16 at SLC, not 15 like Tara. 

Thanks! I do remember Michelle being the favorite, but again I was just watching NBC's coverage which I know is not always accurate. 

[absnow54]

4 minutes ago, healthnut said:

I can’t remember but she definitely wasn’t expected to win and she was 4th after the short program so she needed help to win.

Wasn't there a weird loophole in the scoring too, where Michelle was supposed to be in gold medal position and guaranteed silver, but because of Sarah's ranking, got pushed to bronze? Or am I making that up.

[Rootbeer]

Multiple physicians commenting on the theory that Kamila somehow got exposed to her grandfather's heart medication which resulted in a positive drug screen.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/more-sports/heart-experts-cast-doubt-on-claims-that-russian-skater-s-drug-test-was-contaminated-by-her-grandfather-s-medicine/ar-AATUtVb?ocid=entnewsntp

Quote

 “It reminds me of kids I knew who said they got venereal disease from the toilet seat,” says Dr. Steven Nissen, a cardiologist at the Cleveland Clinic.

 

[healthnut]

5 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Wasn't there a weird loophole in the scoring too, where Michelle was supposed to be in gold medal position and guaranteed silver, but because of Sarah's ranking, got pushed to bronze? Or am I making that up.

The old 6.0 system you had ordinals, the short program was 1/3 of the score and the long program was 2/3, so you .5 points times your placement in the SP and 1 times your placement in the LP. So Michelle got 0.5 pts for finishing first, Sarah got 2 pts for finishing fourth. Had Michelle finished second in the LP she would’ve won by having 2.5 pts to Sarah’s 3 pts. However, once Irina beat Michelle to finish second that knocked Michelle to third. So Sarah won with 2.5 pts, Irina had 3pts (2nd in both), and Michelle had 3.5 pts. Hence, back in that time, if you weren’t in the top 3 after the short, you didn’t control your own destiny. 

[Good Queen Jane]

18 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Wasn't there a weird loophole in the scoring too, where Michelle was supposed to be in gold medal position and guaranteed silver, but because of Sarah's ranking, got pushed to bronze? Or am I making that up.

That wasn't a loophole; that was the 6.0 scoring. Scores didn't matter; placement did. That was my superpower back in the day. I could calculate ordinals in my head and figure out out who needed to beat whom for the medals.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Good Queen Jane
ETA: what @Healthnut said.

[Dr.OO7]

The last several posters just typed everything I was going to about Sarah Hughes' victory. That was one of the best free skates I'd ever seen.

That 1992--2002 period was the absolute peak in the American dominance of ladies figure skating--winning medals at all four Olympics held (an American woman has won a medal at nearly every Olympics, for a total of 23, including 7 golds, statistics no other country can claim), winning the gold medal at 3 out of those four Olympics and having TWO American women on the podium all of those times.

I think both she and Tara were helped by the fact that even though they were likely to win a medal, the pressure on them to win gold was nowhere near as intense as it was on poor Michelle Kwan.

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Dr.OO7

[ombelico]

4 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

This is not something that easily can be answered, as we've had some absolute legends start their Olympic careers at very young ages. Sean White was a kid when he launched his Olympics career and it's shocking when you think of how many years we've watched him compete and he's retiring now at the ripe old age of 35. But I think it needs to be on a sport by sport basis and where there are problems, then it needs to be addressed. One 11 year old competing in skateboarding is a very different situation than having generations of Russian teenagers being used up like toilet paper.

The problem with having age restrictions on a sport-by-sport basis is that the anti-doping code applies to all sports the same. If WADA is essentially saying that someone 15 and under is too immature to be held to the anti-doping regulations, then it stands to reason that they are also too immature to be competing on the world stage, no matter which sport it is.

The issue with asking people like Tara Lipinski, Sarah Hughes, and Dominique Moceanu what they think about age restrictions is that they're (understandably) going to have the bias that their Olympic glory occurred at such a young age, and there's of course the chance the same outcome wouldn't have happened for them at a later age. They were lucky - it worked out for them (I mean only in terms of winning Olympic gold; I'm well aware of the abuses that Moceanu suffered at the hands of the Karolyis). However, that misses the countless number of young anonymous athletes who were pushed too far, too early, and either burned out or couldn't keep up as their bodies broke down. If their coaches had known that they needed to wait until 17 or 18 to compete at that level then perhaps their training schedule would have been approached very differently (and hopefully, more healthfully). 

[choclatechip45]

For gymnastics fans Vanessa Atler was asked about raising the age and her case is interesting since she barley missed the cutoff for the 96 Olympics and then missed Worlds in 1997 because the FIG raised the age to 16. She also said she wasn't in favor in raising the age because she thinks the best should be able to compete.

 

[MaryMitch]

The videos posted by Youtube user "Fran" (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_oCF_4x4dXpzQXOAe7mVEg)  are very informative. If you have time, they are worth watching, in particular this playlist:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXK6X45AZESL5Gi2J6f_dJ0DV87VmW3N0

 

[blackwing]

1 hour ago, choclatechip45 said:

I was in 5th grade when she won. Was her victory that much of a surprise? I live in the NYC metro area so it was a big deal when she won and obviously I knew who Michelle Kwan was so they painted Sarah as the underdog. 

42 minutes ago, healthnut said:

Yes. Michelle was the definitive favorite with Irina Slutskaya being the potential spoiler. Sarah had gotten bronze at the previous Worlds but she also finished behind Sasha at Nationals and Sasha had been injured the previous season so Sarah was very much considered the 3rd American. Sarah had beaten Michelle and Irina at Skate Canada or the Grand Prix final, I can’t remember but she definitely wasn’t expected to win and she was 4th after the short program so she needed help to win.

I’m not surprised her or Tara’s opinion would not be in favor of raising the age limit but Sarah was 16 at SLC, not 15 like Tara. 

Michelle Kwan was indeed the heavy favourite.  She was all but annointed by the media in the months leading up to the Olympics, I think she had won the past two World Championships, she was the veteran.  She was in first after the short program but then bombed her free skate, including if I remember correctly, at least one splat.  She had been so confident that this was her year that she had planned to do her exhibition skate to Sting's "Fields of Gold" while wearing a gold outfit.  Even after settling for bronze, she still used this song and outfit for the exhibition skate, and when she finished, she was full out sobbing.

I too am not surprised that Sarah and Tara aren't in favour of raising the age limit, but I think Tara at least said that if 15 year olds are allowed to compete then they should be held accountable, and not be able to hide behind the "I'm a minor" defence.

4 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Admittedly, I'm a casual fan, not an expert, but a blind squirrel could see how blatantly the Russians were overscored, particularly in PCS. I thought Kaori had the best program of the night in terms of presenting the whole package. I can't remember her name, but I thought the South Korean girl was amazing as well. Serious question: is there some sort of bias against Asian female skaters? 

I don't think so.  In 2006, I want to say the favourite was Sasha Cohen.  Shizuka Arakawa was in 3rd after the short program but then dazzled in the free and won the gold.  Yuna Kim and Mao Asada went 1-2 at the next Olympics.  I think this whole perceived bias against female skaters from Asian countries didn't really come about until the 2014 year when Kim lost to a Russian, and I think it's been exacerbated by the Skating While Russian perception and now will be even more increased by this Kamila debacle.

Wondering about people's thoughts on the ultimate end result.  Let's just say that Valieva finishes in first place.  Supposedly there is going to be a more detailed inquiry after the Olympics.  If she is found to have cheated, then she will be disqualified.  Does anyone think there is a good chance that is going to happen?  Or will it be business as usual, she's so young, let her pass?

I am cynical and I think she will win and be found to have done no wrong.  I am only just wondering if the ISU or whatever governing body has the stones to actually lay out some punishment for her coach, and in particular, Russia.

 

[Lady Whistleup]

The thing about banning "everything:" is that some athletes might genuinely need heart medication and then it turns up on the banned list.

I feel this is the right viewpoint:

Whatever is not banned that was in Kamila's system should not be held against her.

Whatever is banned that was in her system SHOULD be the basis of a suspension.

[Avaleigh]

21 minutes ago, ombelico said:

The problem with having age restrictions on a sport-by-sport basis is that the anti-doping code applies to all sports the same. If WADA is essentially saying that someone 15 and under is too immature to be held to the anti-doping regulations, then it stands to reason that they are also too immature to be competing on the world stage, no matter which sport it is.

The issue with asking people like Tara Lipinski, Sarah Hughes, and Dominique Moceanu what they think about age restrictions is that they're (understandably) going to have the bias that their Olympic glory occurred at such a young age, and there's of course the chance the same outcome wouldn't have happened for them at a later age. They were lucky - it worked out for them (I mean only in terms of winning Olympic gold; I'm well aware of the abuses that Moceanu suffered at the hands of the Karolyis). However, that misses the countless number of young anonymous athletes who were pushed too far, too early, and either burned out or couldn't keep up as their bodies broke down. If their coaches had known that they needed to wait until 17 or 18 to compete at that level then perhaps their training schedule would have been approached very differently (and hopefully, more healthfully). 

We'd still have juniors competing and doing triple axels, quads etc. Junior Worlds is basically just as tough as senior worlds in terms of the skills that the athletes are doing. The JGP scene is full of these Russian girls doing the same stuff the seniors are doing. Athletes are still going to learn skills at an early age in the hope that they can keep them after their growth spurts. 

How will the proposed age limit fix any of this? 

Learning a skill at an early age is key to mastering it. It’s why most skaters start skating so young. Johnny Weir starting late was an exception. Most people are 4-6 and once you learn singles, you move onto doubles. Once you get your doubles and combos, you move onto triples. Many skaters in non abusive environments get all of their triples at a very early age. 

Should a skater like Michelle Kwan have spent seven years at the junior level? Waiting until she turned 18?

[MaryMitch]

There HAS to be a way to ensure the safety of these skaters. It is not right for them to sacrifice their long term health for a couple years of "glory".  I don't know what the answer is; maybe limit the age at which they are legally allowed to train on the higher level jumps?  

[ShellsandCheese]

10 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

The thing about banning "everything:" is that some athletes might genuinely need heart medication and then it turns up on the banned list.

I feel this is the right viewpoint:

Whatever is not banned that was in Kamila's system should not be held against her.

Whatever is banned that was in her system SHOULD be the basis of a suspension.

I just think the whole business is overly complicated and it’s a mess of WADA’s own making. I believe there’s already a process that allows athletes to file for exemption if they must take a drug that is on the banned list, which is also problematic in my opinion. 

At the end of the day if Drug A is very similar to Drug B and both have the same performance enhancing effects; how do you justify A being okay and B being banned. I think this issue will come up more and more as more athletes seek to get that extra advantage and push the limits. 

As for Kamila, the focus should be on the banned drug and her punishment should be based on that - but I see why people are bringing up the other drugs.

Edited February 16, 2022 by ShellsandCheese

[choclatechip45]

5 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

The thing about banning "everything:" is that some athletes might genuinely need heart medication and then it turns up on the banned list.

I feel this is the right viewpoint:

Whatever is not banned that was in Kamila's system should not be held against her.

Whatever is banned that was in her system SHOULD be the basis of a suspension.

You can apply for an exemption. When Russia hacked Simone's file we found out she had an exemption for Ritalin. 

6 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

We'd still have juniors competing and doing triple axels, quads etc. Junior Worlds is basically just as tough as senior worlds in terms of the skills that the athletes are doing. The JGP scene is full of these Russian girls doing the same stuff the seniors are doing. Athletes are still going to learn skills at an early age in the hope that they can keep them after their growth spurts. 

How will the proposed age limit fix any of this? 

Learning a skill at an early age is key to mastering it. It’s why most skaters start skating so young. Johnny Weir starting late was an exception. Most people are 4-6 and once you learn singles, you move onto doubles. Once you get your doubles and combos, you move onto triples. Many skaters in non abusive environments get all of their triples at a very early age. 

Should a skater like Michelle Kwan have spent seven years at the junior level? Waiting until she turned 18?

Isn't that why Johnny was never able to master the quad? I've always heard that from former skaters in interviews. 

[healthnut]

2 minutes ago, blackwing said:

If she is found to have cheated, then she will be disqualified.  Does anyone think there is a good chance that is going to happen?  Or will it be business as usual, she's so young, let her pass?

I don’t know what to believe anymore because I was sure CAS was going to return in favor of the IOC, ISU, and WADA. I feel like the pressure will be immense from every other country that justice will ultimately prevail and she’s disqualified. Both her Nationals and European title should be vacated as well as any Olympic medals. She may end up with a short suspension but her career is likely over in a year anyway, that’s been the Eteri way. However, my fear is Russia cooks up some bogus defense, which the grandfather thing just can’t hold any water, and she’s exonerated. But right now, I’m going to stay optimistic that justice will prevail. In contrast, I have zero hope of any sanctions against Eteri or any fruitful investigation into Sambo 70. 

[Jess14]

It seems like fixing the scoring system is a likelier way to fix the issue of fifteen and sixteen year olds dominating than changing the age limit. You’re still going to have abuse, but I don’t think age limits have much to do with that anyway. In sports like track and field, swimming, basketball, etc, athletes seem to hit their peaks when they’re in their 20s. Sure you have some young phenoms, but it’s not as common. Gymnastics and figure skating seem like the 2 sports where very young girls have dominated, but the code of points in gymnastics seems to have fixed that in some capacity….it’s difficult for the tiny girls who have little muscle mass or haven’t gone through puberty to throw the kind of difficulty needed on vault and floor on a consistent basis. It’s why China hasn’t been a real contender lately…they just don’t have the difficulty on either event. 

I think it’s harder for skating to fix the issue since skating doesn’t have multiple events to offset others. If you put more emphasis on the artistic side and away from quads, you just get even more subjectivity and favoritism for certain countries….

1 minute ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I just think the whole business is over complicated and there’s already a process that allows athletes to file for exemption if they must take a drug that is on the list. At the end of the day if Drug A is very similar to Drug B and both have the same performance enhancing effects; how do you justify A being okay and B being banned. 

As for Kamila, the focus should be on the banned drugs and her punishment should be based on that - but I see why people are bringing up the other drugs.

I don’t think anyone is saying Kamila should be banned for taking legal drugs. I just think it casts even more doubt on the silliness of her claim that the drug got into her system due to contamination from grandpa. She was taking a cocktail of similar drugs, so the odds of just this one getting into her bloodstream by accident is highly unlikely. And by accident, I mean the type that could result in an athlete not being punished at all. The team coach or doctor accidentally giving her a banned substance or giving it to her in a high enough dosage to where it was detectable at the time of the test (what I think is most likely) is not that type of an accident. That’s just doping.

[healthnut]

6 minutes ago, MaryMitch said:

There HAS to be a way to ensure the safety of these skaters. It is not right for them to sacrifice their long term health for a couple years of "glory".  I don't know what the answer is; maybe limit the age at which they are legally allowed to train on the higher level jumps?  

Honestly, I think the best thing is to ban quads for women. I know people may find that incredibly sexist but after listening to Polina’s podcast yesterday I feel that’s the only way forward. She wasn’t making a case for banning quads but  she said in order to learn quads they have to start doing doubles and triples years earlier than normal. This isn’t healthy. Plus the pre rotation technique in order to get these quads done is even more problematic. Polina believes if something isn’t done to discontinue that technique then American coaches as well as other countries will have to teach that technique instead of the proper technique in order to compete. I think she’s right. You can’t devalue the quads to disincentivize them (like they’ve done in pairs) because that would be devaluing them in men’s competition, too. 

I also think they should make PCS equal to the technical mark in ladies skating. It’s ridiculous it doesn’t carry equal weight especially with the explosion in tech category. 

[Rootbeer]

20 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

The thing about banning "everything:" is that some athletes might genuinely need heart medication and then it turns up on the banned list.

The medication in question is for people who have angina, that is, chest pain due to lack of blood flow to the heart muscle.  I cannot picture a circumstance where anyone, even a 15 year old, who has angina would be able to compete at the Olympic level in any sport.

There are multiple drugs that are on the banned list that can indeed by used by athletes who need them.  We've mentioned that Simone Biles has ADHD which is treated with amphetamines.  Amphetamines are banned, however, an athlete who needs to take them for a legitimate condition can submit evidence and be permitted to take them.  However, it has to be done openly and honestly before the competition, which is what Simone did and what Kamila did not do.  Interestingly, Kamila did list the two non-banned substances she was taking on her pre-competition medical forms.

[Ohiopirate02]

3 minutes ago, Jess14 said:

It seems like fixing the scoring system is a likelier way to fix the issue of fifteen and sixteen year olds dominating than changing the age limit. You’re still going to have abuse, but I don’t think age limits have much to do with that anyway. In sports like track and field, swimming, basketball, etc, athletes seem to hit their peaks when they’re in their 20s. Sure you have some young phenoms, but it’s not as common. Gymnastics and figure skating seem like the 2 sports where very young girls have dominated, but the code of points in gymnastics seems to have fixed that in some capacity….it’s difficult for the tiny girls who have little muscle mass or haven’t gone through puberty to throw the kind of difficulty needed on vault and floor on a consistent basis. It’s why China hasn’t been a real contender lately…they just don’t have the difficulty on either event. 

I think it’s harder for skating to fix the issue since skating doesn’t have multiple events to offset others. If you put more emphasis on the artistic side and away from quads, you just get even more subjectivity and favoritism for certain countries….

They can put in more rules that limit the amount of jumps allowed in a program, limit the amount of quads one skater can do in a program, add an extra step sequence, get rid of the bonus for jumps done in the second half of a program, etc.  The sport has options.

[choclatechip45]

One of the reasons I am against raising the age is because of someone like Kyla Ross who grew to be 5'7 and in her words her knees kept touching the ground on the lower bar (rules against adjusting the bars). It seems dumb to me to punish athletes because of body types especially when they are the best at 15. 

 

[Jess14]

10 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

They can put in more rules that limit the amount of jumps allowed in a program, limit the amount of quads one skater can do in a program, add an extra step sequence, get rid of the bonus for jumps done in the second half of a program, etc.  The sport has options.

I would be ok with any of those options. They need to do something. 

6 minutes ago, choclatechip45 said:

One of the reasons I am against raising the age is because of someone like Kyla Ross who grew to be 5'7 and in her words her knees kept touching the ground on the lower bar (rules against adjusting the bars). It seems dumb to me to punish athletes because of body types especially when they are the best at 15. 

 

I agree, but I think this is the case no matter where the cutoff is. What’s the difference between a girl who turns 16 on December 31 in the Olympic year and one who turns 16 one day later on Jan 1 - basically nothing, but one is eligible for the Olympics and the other isn’t. Look at Nastia Liukin. She could’ve made the 2004 team, but had to wait four years, which included a bad ankle injury and a growth spurt  only to lose Olympic gold to an underaged He Kexin… And one can argue that He Kexin would’ve been screwed had she not competed because she actually was the best bar worker in the world in 2008. No matter what the cutoff is, there is someone who loses out.

[Avaleigh]

15 minutes ago, healthnut said:

Honestly, I think the best thing is to ban quads for women. I know people may find that incredibly sexist but after listening to Polina’s podcast yesterday I feel that’s the only way forward. She wasn’t making a case for banning quads but  she said in order to learn quads they have to start doing doubles and triples years earlier than normal. This isn’t healthy. Plus the pre rotation technique in order to get these quads done is even more problematic. Polina believes if something isn’t done to discontinue that technique then American coaches as well as other countries will have to teach that technique instead of the proper technique in order to compete. I think she’s right. You can’t devalue the quads to disincentivize them (like they’ve done in pairs) because that would be devaluing them in men’s competition, too. 

I also think they should make PCS equal to the technical mark in ladies skating. It’s ridiculous it doesn’t carry equal weight especially with the explosion in tech category. 

Instead of banning quads for women can't they just penalize the skaters who use the technique that will damage their body? If you do a quad with the wrong technique then score it as if they did a double. Penalize pre-rotation. If they don't get the reward for doing it improperly then they'll stop doing it. 

[Rootbeer]

17 minutes ago, choclatechip45 said:

One of the reasons I am against raising the age is because of someone like Kyla Ross who grew to be 5'7 and in her words her knees kept touching the ground on the lower bar (rules against adjusting the bars). It seems dumb to me to punish athletes because of body types especially when they are the best at 15. 

 

 I can see that, but, as they say, life is not fair.  If a guy who loves to play basketball doesn't grow to be well over 6 feet tall, then he is not very likely to make the US basketball team.  Maybe we should be training middle schoolers to be jockeys since small size is required there, too.  If a gymnast might grow too tall for the apparatus, then she should find another sport, not expect the rules to be changed so she can compete before she gets grows.  Certain body types have advantages in different sports, letting young kids compete with grown-ups is not the answer.

If nothing else, this whole situation has shown that the ridiculous rule that any athlete under the age of 16 is a 'protected person' and won't be held accountable for cheating needs to be changed.  It seems like that was a major part of Russia's 'defense' of Kamila.  If she is old enough to compete with adults, she is old enough to be disqualified if she cheats.  I am fine with scrutiny of her coaches and team medical personnel, but she should not be free to compete.  For that matter, if Kamila is 'protected' and cannot be suspended, then suspend Eteri and expel her from China.  It is incomprehensible that no one can be held responsible for the issue and, until the rules get tightened, the Russians have just found a new way to cheat without consequences.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Rootbeer

[Rootbeer]

12 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Instead of banning quads for women can't they just penalize the skaters who use the technique that will damage their body? If you do a quad with the wrong technique then score it as if they did a double. Penalize pre-rotation. If they don't get the reward for doing it improperly then they'll stop doing it. 

If preventing permanent damage to the body is the goal, then you'd have to ban virtually every jump, especially for petite women and young women who haven't finished growing.  Landing on one foot after a jump puts tremendous pressure on the hip and spine.  That is particularly true if the bones are very small or haven't finished growing.  

Also, the pre-rotation is a technique that has become widespread, especially in Europe and not just amongst Russians.  There will be howls of protest from dozens of coaches who have always trained their skaters to pre-rotate their jumps.  There will be outrage that the US is trying to stack the deck in favor of Americans since most US skaters don't pre-rotate because they weren't taught to do it.

It is also important to remember that the ISU has members from all over the world and Russia has a lot of influence there.  Just because the US thinks certain rules need to be tightened doesn't mean the Russians won't manage to block it, just like they did when the US wanted to ban one of the legal drugs Kamila was taking.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Rootbeer

[healthnut]

10 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Instead of banning quads for women can't they just penalize the skaters who use the technique that will damage their body? If you do a quad with the wrong technique then score it as if they did a double. Penalize pre-rotation. If they don't get the reward for doing it improperly then they'll stop doing it. 

I’m not against that, I’m not even sure if it can be done without it. Before Trusova, Sasha Cohen tried and I believe Miki Ando landed one that was a quarter turn short. Right now there’s nothing in the rule books that judges takeoff, they only look at the landing. 

[ShellsandCheese]

33 minutes ago, healthnut said:

Honestly, I think the best thing is to ban quads for women. I know people may find that incredibly sexist but after listening to Polina’s podcast yesterday I feel that’s the only way forward. She wasn’t making a case for banning quads but  she said in order to learn quads they have to start doing doubles and triples years earlier than normal. This isn’t healthy. Plus the pre rotation technique in order to get these quads done is even more problematic. Polina believes if something isn’t done to discontinue that technique then American coaches as well as other countries will have to teach that technique instead of the proper technique in order to compete. I think she’s right. You can’t devalue the quads to disincentivize them (like they’ve done in pairs) because that would be devaluing them in men’s competition, too. 

I also think they should make PCS equal to the technical mark in ladies skating. It’s ridiculous it doesn’t carry equal weight especially with the explosion in tech category. 

Wouldn’t the same apply to boys and men though? If jumping is that bad for little girls, does the same apply for little boys? 

[Lady Whistleup]

38 minutes ago, healthnut said:

Honestly, I think the best thing is to ban quads for women. I know people may find that incredibly sexist but after listening to Polina’s podcast yesterday I feel that’s the only way forward. She wasn’t making a case for banning quads but  she said in order to learn quads they have to start doing doubles and triples years earlier than normal. This isn’t healthy. Plus the pre rotation technique in order to get these quads done is even more problematic. Polina believes if something isn’t done to discontinue that technique then American coaches as well as other countries will have to teach that technique instead of the proper technique in order to compete. I think she’s right. You can’t devalue the quads to disincentivize them (like they’ve done in pairs) because that would be devaluing them in men’s competition, too. 

I also think they should make PCS equal to the technical mark in ladies skating. It’s ridiculous it doesn’t carry equal weight especially with the explosion in tech category. 

Why just for women? Quads for men is also incredibly bad for them. Yes we love Nathan Chen but a 22 year old should not have as many hip problems as Nathan does. 

I just find banning steps for women incredibly sexist. It reminds me of the days women could not vote or own their own bank account.

[choclatechip45]

15 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

 I can see that, but, as they say, life is not fair.  If a guy who loves to play basketball doesn't grow to be well over 6 feet tall, then he is not very likely to make the US basketball team.  Maybe we should be training middle schoolers to be jockeys since small size is required there, too.  If a gymnast might grow too tall for the apparatus, then she should find another sport, not expect the rules to be changed so she can compete before she gets grows.  Certain body types have advantages in different sports, letting young kids compete with grown-ups is not the answer.

If nothing else, this whole situation has shown that the ridiculous rule that any athlete under the age of 16 is a 'protected person' and won't be held accountable for cheating needs to be changed.  It seems like that was a major part of Russia's 'defense' of Kamila.  If she is old enough to compete with adults, she is old enough to be disqualified if she cheats.  I am fine with scrutiny of her coaches and team medical personnel, but she should not be free to compete.  For that matter, if Kamila is 'protected' and cannot be suspended, then suspend Eteri and expel her from China.  It is incomprehensible that no one can be held responsible for the issue and, until the rules get tightened, the Russians have just found a new way to cheat without consequences.

f you are allowing a 13 year old compete in skateboarding at the Olympics you should allow a 15 year old who is about to turn 16 years old compete in gymnastics. If Kyla Ross  was the same age as Simone I would have no issue because rules are rules. A 13 year old is still a protective person under WADA and said 13 year old also fractured their skull at age 11 trying to qualify for the Olympics. 

 

1 minute ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Why just for women? Quads for men is also incredibly bad for them. Yes we love Nathan Chen but a 22 year old should not have as many hip problems as Nathan does. 

I just find banning steps for women incredibly sexist. It reminds me of the days women could not vote or own their own bank account.

How old was Nathan when he started learning quads? Probably at a young age which again why raising the age isn't going to change training. 

[absnow54]

11 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

Also, the pre-rotation is a technique that has become widespread, especially in Europe and not just amongst Russians.  There will be howls of protest from dozens of coaches who have always trained their skaters to pre-rotate their jumps.

Isn’t this the technique Nathan Chen uses too?

[Rootbeer]

3 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Why just for women? Quads for men is also incredibly bad for them. Yes we love Nathan Chen but a 22 year old should not have as many hip problems as Nathan does. 

I just find banning steps for women incredibly sexist. It reminds me of the days women could not vote or own their own bank account.

The main issue is the size of the hip in question.  The smaller the bone, the less mature; the more likely it will be permanently damaged.  Women have smaller bones than men, younger women have not finished growing.  Therefore, young women are more likely to suffer permanent damage because of their biology.

That doesn't mean that anyone who does jumps in figure skating cannot suffer permanent injury, just that women, especially the young ones, are at highest risk.

[Lady Whistleup]

3 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Isn’t this the technique Nathan Chen uses too?

Yes it is. Nathan has only had Russian coaches so he uses that technique. 

I read that the American straight-line technique is not good for learning quads. That's why Jason Brown or Johnny Weir struggled with quads.