Figure Skating

[Hana Chan]

As bad as what is going on at Eteri's rink in particular and the Russian sports program in general, that doesn't excuse the judging that we saw today. It's bad enough that Eteri's girls are unjustifiably overscored, but then we get insult added to injury that many of the other girls were criminally underscored.

[specialj67]

Kaori should be in first. I know I should be happy she’s even in third going into the free, considering some of the BS judging. Hers was the program of the event for me. Even though Alysa doesn’t have the same PCS levels as the higher ranked skaters, I thoroughly enjoyed watching her today. She seemed like she’s was genuinely enjoying the whole experience, which is honestly all I could hope for for her. 

[jenh526]

1 hour ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Gymnasts like Dominique Moceanu also expressed how abusive the Karolyis were and her parents just sent her back.

Poor little Dominique. I remember watching a video of her falling on her head during a beam routine in competition. Apparently she wasn’t even checked for injury after this fall before going on to the next event.

It’s absolutely disgusting, these so-called adults preying on children. When a society can’t protect its most vulnerable, well, I just don’t know. It’s heartbreaking. I feel so bad for all of them, Valieva and her teammates included.

[TexasGal]

Washington Post story on Russian coaching methods.  They aren’t allowed to drink water during competition?  WTF?

 

[Lady Whistleup]

Here is the documentary of Alina Zagitova I was looking for. SHe's verbally abused and crying throughout practices. Go to 9:16 for a really sad segment where Alina says her mom is not allowed to visit her.

This is not normal. Not even in a Russian rink. Poor Alina. It's no surprise she quit -- why would you subject yourself to that if you didn't have to?

The sad thing is Eteri gives good technical advice. I feel like she'd be a good jump specialist. Just take out all the abuse, and she'd probably be great at teaching 14 year olds how to jump.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Lady Whistleup

[Mirabelle]

38 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

 

Also, the positive test occurred during the Russian National Championships in December which she won.  It was because she placed so high at the Russian championships that she competed and won at Europeans.  The skaters chosen for the Olympics are usually the top finishers at those competition who are chosen by their country's Olympic committee.  So, if she hadn't taken the med, then she might not have done so well at the Russian championship and then she wouldn't have been on the Olympic team at all.

Barring catastrophic injury, Valieva would have been chosen for the Olympic team regardless of her placement at Russian Nationals. She's literally broken records at every previous competition this season. Federations have a lot of leeway in how they chose their skaters for the Olympics. Yuna Kim didn't even compete at S. Korean nationals for a number of years because there was no competition - she was literally that much better than the rest of the women skaters. 

The US used to just send the top three finishers at Nationals but they've moved away from that now the field isn't as deep as it used to be. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Mirabelle

[Lady Whistleup]

It's really weird -- Valieva has been talked of as The One since her days as a junior. It was generally said that Anna and Sasha and Aliona couldn't hold a candle to Valieva and that is correct. She is a much stronger skater than them. Than the rest of the field, actually.

So you'd think the Russian federation would be keeping close tabs on her training, making sure this shining star was not overtrained or burned out by the Olys. Instead, they decided to dope her a bunch. SMH.

[scarynikki12]

I think that, historically, American ladies did well in skating for two reasons: 1) the coaches worked well under the 6.0 system and haven't been able to appropriately adjust to the scoring changes and, 2) skating in this country is expensive to maintain so there likely are a couple dozen people with the talent and capability to match the scores of the top skaters but just will never be known because they don't have the money.

[Rootbeer]

22 minutes ago, TexasGal said:

Washington Post story on Russian coaching methods.  They aren’t allowed to drink water during competition?  WTF?

 

Yep, Eteri felt that this caused them to be 'swollen' and would hinder their jumping.  This is not a medical fact, just Eteri's opinion as far as I can tell.  Water is apparently strictly limited and girls given diuretics if deemed too 'swollen'.  Many diuretics are also on the banned list, so I presume that was done carefully to avoid detection.  Diuretics can be used to mask other drugs which is why they're banned.  If a drug is mainly excreted through the urine, then causing the skater to urinate frequently will clear it from the system faster so that a drug test will be negative.

This, combined with the severely restricted diets Eteri uses in these young girls maybe makes it more clear why these kids were then given drugs that might help their stamina and endurance.  They obviously weren't getting adequate calories and hydration.

[Avaleigh]

3 hours ago, GreyBunny said:

As for the age, raise it to 17. It won’t shorten the window for healthy, properly trained athletes. Healthy, well-fed women in their 20’s are now doing skills in gymnastics that the underfed teens never could.

I agree that athletes should be healthy, well-fed and protected. I'm just wondering how making the age 17 or 18 will put a stop to any of the issues the sport is currently dealing with particularly from the Russians. The focus will still be on having the athletes learn skills at as early an age as possible. Is the belief that the Russians will stop over training, drugging and underfeeding their athletes if we raise the age limit? Won't we just start having 18 and 19 year old waifs doing what Kamila, Anna and co are doing now?

I'm just wondering if there's a more effective way of conquering these and many other issues the sport is currently facing. At the moment, I think maybe addressing scoring issues could be more helpful here. If you can still have programs that are rewarded for doing elememts other than quads maybe we'd start seeing more athletes who spend time developing their artistry, extension, musical interpretation, etc. Reward Jason Brown programs. Quads can be rewarded but address PCS so that they aren't excessively given to skaters who clearly don't give a shit about skating skills. A person like Kaori or Loena should still mathematically be able to medal with clean performances.

Address the scoring issues and I think some of these other problems could be solved.

[Rootbeer]

Watching the NBC coverage and Tara just said Mariah Bell 'thrives on competition'.  Should we request that Lipinski be screened for drugs?

[Lady Whistleup]

Just now, Rootbeer said:

Watching the NBC coverage and Tara just said Mariah Bell 'thrives on competition'.  Should we request that Lipinski be screened for drugs?

Mariah seems like a nice girl, but has she ever put together two b2b clean programs?

[Rootbeer]

6 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

I agree that athletes should be healthy, well-fed and protected. I'm just wondering how making the age 17 or 18 will put a stop to any of the issues the sport is currently dealing with particularly from the Russians. The focus will still be on having the athletes learn skills at as early an age as possible. Is the belief that the Russians will stop over training, drugging and underfeeding their athletes if we raise the age limit? Won't we just start having 18 and 19 year old waifs doing what Kamila, Anna and co are doing now?

I'm just wondering if there's a more effective way of conquering these and many other issues the sport is currently facing. At the moment, I think maybe addressing scoring issues could be more helpful here. If you can still have programs that are rewarded for doing elememts other than quads maybe we'd start seeing more athletes who spend time developing their artistry, extension, musical interpretation, etc. Reward Jason Brown programs. Quads can be rewarded but address PCS so that they aren't excessively given to skaters who clearly don't give a shit about skating skills. A person like Kaori or Loena should still mathematically be able to medal with clean performances.

Address the scoring issues and I think some of these other problems could be solved.

Increasing the age limits might make it a little harder for abusive coaches and others to hide in plain sight since older teens might be more likely to complain, but, otherwise, I don't think it will matter a lot because figure skating is one of those sports that requires intensive coaching from a fairly young age.  Even if they cannot enter senior level competitions until 17 or 18, there are going to be 10, 11 and 12 year olds training intensively to get to that point and being subjected to draconian practices with even less oversight.

I think changing the rules to even the playing field so that jumps are not so overscored while other, more artistic, but also athletically challenging skills are given their due is more likely to result in significant change.  Certainly the score for attempting but missing, a quad needs to be revised.  Maybe deduct 1 point for the first fall and go up from there so the butt Zamboni skates aren't getting overscored.  Reward beautiful skating and not just frantic jumping.

There also needs to be stricter evaluation and supervision of the judges.  Check them out, make sure they're evenhanded in their scoring.  If they clearly overscore based on a skater's nationality, get rid of them.  There are too many out there who aren't judging the skating; they're basing their decisions on the nation represented, the reputation of the coach and a lot of other irrelevant stuff.

[specialj67]

I’ve seen elsewhere the suggestion that the judging panels be split—half of the judges are judging the specific elements and awarding the GOE, and the other half are looking at the program as a whole and awarding the PCS. I like this idea, but would it ever happen? Could it even work? I’d like to think so, but I was stupid enough to think things would change more after the 6.0 system was scrapped.

[ShellsandCheese]

1 hour ago, Lady Whistleup said:

It's really weird -- Valieva has been talked of as The One since her days as a junior. It was generally said that Anna and Sasha and Aliona couldn't hold a candle to Valieva and that is correct. She is a much stronger skater than them. Than the rest of the field, actually.

So you'd think the Russian federation would be keeping close tabs on her training, making sure this shining star was not overtrained or burned out by the Olys. Instead, they decided to dope her a bunch. SMH.

In this case, I would say any doping is coming from Eteri’s camp and I actually doubt the Federation was involved. I know it’s Russia but their Skating Federation has never been to known to be involved in some of the shenanigans happening in other sports. All the more reason, why this whole thing is just dumb dumb dumb and so unnecessary. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by ShellsandCheese

[Rootbeer]

6 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

In this case, I would say any doping is coming from Eteri’s camp and I actually doubt the Federation was involved. I know it’s Russia but their Skating Federation has never been to known to be involved in some of the shenanigans happening in other sports. All the more reason, why this whole thing is just dumb dumb dumb and so unnecessary. 

True, the Skating Federation has generally seemed to feel that fixing the judging at skating competitions was enough to keep Russia in the medals.  I guess Eteri has opened a whole new world of cheating to them and I am sure they're grateful.

[scarynikki12]

The current approach where just attempting a quad earns more points than a well executed triple reminds me of how the Chinese approached gymnastics in the 2008 Games. They just made sure the ladies had absurdly high start values and then it really didn't matter if the execution was great or not. The Code Of Points was promptly adjusted for the next quad so that couldn't happen again.

Earlier in the thread someone suggested that they set a cap for the elements rather than a base value and I like that idea as a starting point.

[Rootbeer]

On NBC's coverage tonight, Mike Tirico reported that the 2 other legal substances found in Kamila's urine are also cardiac drugs.  He quoted the chief of the US anti-doping agency who states that the combination of the 3 drugs would work together for 'increasing endurance, reducing fatigue and promoting greater efficiency in using oxygen'.  So, it seems that, even though 2 of the 3 drugs are currently legal, they all seem to do the same things. OK then.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Rootbeer

[Dr.OO7]

1 hour ago, Rootbeer said:

Yep, Eteri felt that this caused them to be 'swollen' and would hinder their jumping.  This is not a medical fact, just Eteri's opinion as far as I can tell.  Water is apparently strictly limited and girls given diuretics if deemed too 'swollen'.  Many diuretics are also on the banned list, so I presume that was done carefully to avoid detection.  Diuretics can be used to mask other drugs which is why they're banned.  If a drug is mainly excreted through the urine, then causing the skater to urinate frequently will clear it from the system faster so that a drug test will be negative.

This, combined with the severely restricted diets Eteri uses in these young girls maybe makes it more clear why these kids were then given drugs that might help their stamina and endurance.  They obviously weren't getting adequate calories and hydration.

We need an "anger" reaction.

The cruel irony is that in this kind of intense athletic competition, these girls need to STUFF, not starve themselves. You can't perform if you don't have the calories to burn for energy.

[Lady Whistleup]

Just now, Dr.OO7 said:

We need an "anger" reaction.

The cruel irony is that in this kind of intense athletic competition, these girls need to STUFF, not starve themselves. You can't perform if you don't have the calories to burn for energy.

Also, if you want to reduce appetite and watch your weight, every nutritionist will tell you to stay hydrated.

So ironically, not allowing them to drink water probably makes them crave food even more. 

I remember Evgenia Medvedeva said that when she stopped skating she had to remember "the food in the fridge will still be there tomorrow." I find that so sad because that's classic bulimia behavior.

[scarynikki12]

Beautiful skate from Higuchi. I love watching the Japanese and South Korean skaters. There's technical excellence and artistic merit but they all skate FAST which I would love to see rewarded. Maybe the judges can borrow those speed guns that cops use and give points based on miles per hour?

Yeah that no water thing is what actors do in order to look ripped shirtless. It's beyond dangerous which is why athletes in great shape are properly hydrated. 

[scarynikki12]

How cute is Alysa? She was having so much fun.

[legaleagle53]

1 minute ago, scarynikki12 said:

How cute is Alysa? She was having so much fun.

She reminds me of a young Michelle Kwan, except she's a little more outgoing than Michelle always seemed to be to me.

[Lady Whistleup]

2 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

How cute is Alysa? She was having so much fun.

I'm not sure she's having "fun." Her father is notorious as the most overbearing skating parent to ever skating parent. He moved her in the middle of the year to Colorado when she was thriving with her coaches at home. 

[scarynikki12]

1 minute ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I'm not sure she's having "fun." Her father is notorious as the most overbearing skating parent to ever skating parent. He moved her in the middle of the year to Colorado when she was thriving with her coaches at home. 

Maybe she was having fun cause she had a couple minutes away from him? 

[healthnut]

Former Olympian Polina Edmonds posted a great podcast episode on what doping does in figure skating and the problems with women doing quads. 
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/2022-olympics-doping-scandal/id1525495252?i=1000551112896

[Rootbeer]

6 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I'm not sure she's having "fun." Her father is notorious as the most overbearing skating parent to ever skating parent. He moved her in the middle of the year to Colorado when she was thriving with her coaches at home. 

Maybe she was having fun because she knew her hard to please father would be happy with her performance.  Or, maybe, part of the reason that she's able to deal with his crazy ways is because she really does love to skate.

[Lady Whistleup]

Ok another observation: I can't think of another sport where there's such a disconnect between practice wear and competition wear.

If you look at skaters in practice, they live in warm hoodies and black leggings. In competition, they are wearing dresses held together by illusion fabric and the bedazzler.  I wonder if the judging would be fairer if there was like more of a uniform standard -- skate in some sort of uniform.

[choclatechip45]

35 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

The current approach where just attempting a quad earns more points than a well executed triple reminds me of how the Chinese approached gymnastics in the 2008 Games. They just made sure the ladies had absurdly high start values and then it really didn't matter if the execution was great or not. The Code Of Points was promptly adjusted for the next quad so that couldn't happen again.

Earlier in the thread someone suggested that they set a cap for the elements rather than a base value and I like that idea as a starting point.

Aly Raisman's Amanar would like a word. 

19 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I'm not sure she's having "fun." Her father is notorious as the most overbearing skating parent to ever skating parent. He moved her in the middle of the year to Colorado when she was thriving with her coaches at home. 

I think that is exactly why she is having fun at the Olympics. The rest of the team have been like older siblings. She was able to build a snowman, get into a few snowball fights, have peach juice and get cute stuffed animals from the cafeteria. Alysa is living her life at the Olympics and I'm here for it. 

[scarynikki12]

2 minutes ago, choclatechip45 said:

Aly Raisman's Amanar would like a word. 

Aly was overscored but it wasn't a team strategy like in 08.

[legaleagle53]

7 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Ok another observation: I can't think of another sport where there's such a disconnect between practice wear and competition wear.

If you look at skaters in practice, they live in warm hoodies and black leggings. In competition, they are wearing dresses held together by illusion fabric and the bedazzler.  I wonder if the judging would be fairer if there was like more of a uniform standard -- skate in some sort of uniform.

That would never work, because artistry is still a part of the sport, and that includes the costuming, which is supposed to be coordinated with the music and the expression as part of the artistic presentation.

[choclatechip45]

5 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

Aly was overscored but it wasn't a team strategy like in 08.

Yes Amanars were part of the Martha's strategy in 2012. The nickname was the United States of Amanars. 

Speaking of Alysa I saw on Reddit she is clapping back to trolls on insta who are calling her a traitor to China because of her father. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by choclatechip45

[scarynikki12]

Just now, choclatechip45 said:

Yes Amanars were part of the Martha's strategy in 2012. The nickname was the United States of Amanars. 

Aly's the only one that I remember as being poorly done and I'm talking about on the level that China did where they made every gymnast have massive start values, including elements some of them just couldn't do, on every apparatus to guarantee a gold which no other country did then or since. 

So did the judges take anything off when Kamila missed her axel? I feel like we need to get a forensic accountant to check their bank records for any recent influx of cash.

[GeminiDancer]

I caved and I watched her short program. Everything about it is a farce, from the fact that she's still there to that BS score she got. I had no sympathy for her tears. None.

[galaxygirl76]

1 minute ago, scarynikki12 said:

So did the judges take anything off when Kamila missed her axel? I feel like we need to get a forensic accountant to check their bank records for any recent influx of cash.

I think the points box said 4.80, base was 8.00. If I remember correctly from the morning Trusova's box said 4.00 after her fall.

[CeeBeeGee]

I turned off the TV while The Doper was skating. She fell on her 3A?

[emmawoodhouse]

West coast here, so watching live was out of the question. Johnny and Tara were pretty ruthless commentating on Kamila's presence. Johnny seems to be re-evaluating everything he thought he knew about Russia.

Just now, CeeBeeGee said:

I turned off the TV while The Doper was skating. She fell on her 3A?

Stepped out and underrotated.

[scarynikki12]

Kamila was barely penalized for her axel while You's entire routine is under review. Of course.

[annzeepark914]

Just now, emmawoodhouse said:

Johnny seems to be re-evaluating everything he thought he knew about Russia.

Now this is amazing!  

[choclatechip45]

Dumb question how can Sasha do so many quads but can't do a triple axel?

Isn't triple axel considered the easier jump?

[Lady Whistleup]

In fairness to Johnny, he had a kind, nurturing coach and ... was not successful or consistent. He switched to a stern Russian coach who got him back on track and he had some of the most successful competitions of his life. I think he probably believed that Eteri was just a stern Russian coach and that approach is necessary to harvest medalists. And to a degree, I agree with him. I have a co-teacher who wants to be the kids' friends and it's total chaos when he teaches. They think I'm wicked but I'm not, I just have expectations.

I don't think Johnny was aware of the state-sponsored doping, and the totally absurd CAS ruling. 

Just now, choclatechip45 said:

Dumb question how can Sasha do so many quads but can't do a triple axel?

Isn't triple axel considered the easier jump?

No the triple axel is often the hardest jump because it relies on height and distance. For instance, Patrick Chan could land quads but never the triple axel. Nathan Chen's 3A is okay but not as consistent as his quads.

[Hanahope]

Its difficult because the axel takes off from a forward edge, while the other jumps are from the rear.  So the 3A is actually 3 1/2 rotations, from the front, which is harder for some.

Kamila didn't fully fall on the axel, she "fell out of it" on her landing, but didn't fall to the ice.  so it wasn't quite the same kindof deduction.

[scarynikki12]

Ok the potential Trusova medal simply because she has five quads in the free is exactly the problem. Yes, she may skate perfectly but she did a bad job in the short so the expectation shouldn't be that her medal chances all come from the free. What's the point of two programs if you can just win with one? Also, if she falls on every quad she'll likely still medal which is also bullshit.

And another Skating While Russian occurs. Hey, judges, she hasn't done quads yet so maybe don't give her points as if she did.

[Minneapple]

7 minutes ago, choclatechip45 said:

Dumb question how can Sasha do so many quads but can't do a triple axel?

Isn't triple axel considered the easier jump?

The axel is the hardest jump because you take off going forward, plus it’s an edge jump not a toe pick jump. You actually do a full extra half-revolution because you start going forward and end going backward. And you have to land on an outside edge which is harder than landing on an inside edge. If you ever hear about “flutzes,” that’s a lutz jump that a skater is fudging on her inside edge rather than the outside edge because it’s easier to land. Sasha Cohen was notorious for her flutzes. 

This skating lesson has been brought to you by my childhood ice skating lessons. I never got beyond learning a waltz jump and a camel spin.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Minneapple

[scarynikki12]

Another thing about the axel is that, since it's the only one that has a forward takeoff it's never going to be practiced as often as the other jumps combined. No matter the foot placement every other jump begins backward so the skaters are always going to have the most familiarity from that angle. 

[choclatechip45]

9 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

In fairness to Johnny, he had a kind, nurturing coach and ... was not successful or consistent. He switched to a stern Russian coach who got him back on track and he had some of the most successful competitions of his life. I think he probably believed that Eteri was just a stern Russian coach and that approach is necessary to harvest medalists. And to a degree, I agree with him. I have a co-teacher who wants to be the kids' friends and it's total chaos when he teaches. They think I'm wicked but I'm not, I just have expectations.

I don't think Johnny was aware of the state-sponsored doping, and the totally absurd CAS ruling. 

No the triple axel is often the hardest jump because it relies on height and distance. For instance, Patrick Chan could land quads but never the triple axel. Nathan Chen's 3A is okay but not as consistent as his quads.

thanks for the explanation!

I think Johnny always admired the Russian figure skating program while he was skating because he saw that they got results while he was always fighting with his federation. I remember him saying he hated the American approach to skating and plus his love of the USSR from the cold war because he doesn't understand why America hated the USSR as a 5year old.

It's like the US Men Olympic gymansts who to this day  will say at least Martha got results. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by choclatechip45

[galaxygirl76]

I'm about 8 years older and Johnny and I remember the cold war very differently.

[scarynikki12]

I have to admit I actually like Shcherbakova's short program. I was ready to see some falls but she skated well and I loved her music. If her free is like this then I'd be fine with her being the winning ROC lady (assuming she doesn't also prove to be doping). 

[scarynikki12]

Sakamoto's short was gorgeous. Perfect music, tons of speed, great execution. When Tara mentioned that she made her double axel look so easy it reminded me that that should be what the judges are basing the scoring on. Not the difficulty but how effortless the move is. A perfect double axel is better than a struggling triple. At least they put her in third so maybe the ROC ladies will each implode enough that Sakamoto can pull off a gold win? 

[HartofDixie]

This doc on Russian rhythmic gymnasts is worth checking out.

https://youtu.be/Tgj5sUH3ULM