S04.E10: The Rise

[Catfi9ht]

5 hours ago, millennium said:

The teens are killing it with their acting skills.   Samantha came across as a vindictive, petulant brat all season, but in her final match she seemed every bit a warrior.   Tori is hard to like but impossible to hate.   Robbie was like a teenage Terminator until coming unglued in the last moments.  Miguel was the heart and soul of the whole season.   And Kenny seemed like a puppy that was kicked and kicked until it just turned mean. 

I love this character breakdown. Thank you for writing it.

[benteen]

18 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I do think it'd be funny to have an episode from the point of view of the other dojos in the Valley that are not insane. LOL.

Heheh.  It would be fun to get the perspective of another dojo to all the insanity and drama of Cobra Kai, Miyagido and Eagle Fang.  Just how completely insane it looks to everyone watching.  Kind of like Terry Silver telling Kreese how insane the plot of Karate Kid 3 was.  I've read some talk about expanding the "Miyagiverse" from the producers and here would be a chance.  The show has done a great job with creating new characters ao I think it would be worth a try.  Plus it brings an outside dynamic to bring into the Cobra Kai conflict.

Edited January 15, 2022 by benteen

[Danny Franks]

So Miguel's dad is 100% a cartel guy. This show doesn't have the subtlety to go in a different direction. Well, if they can stunt cast let's hope they get Wagner Moura to play him.

But 'going off to find my birth-parent' is never a storyline that a character gets when the writers have lots of plans for them. I wonder whether Xolo's increasing profile has them worried that they won't be able to keep hold of him.

The choreography of the fights was pretty on point, I have to say. Lots of quick action without the quick cuts that are often used to disguise awkwardness. Definitely some egregious slo-mo use, though.

Kenny becoming a power-mad arsehole was inevitable, as it seems to happen to almost all these kids. Can Robby bring him back? Well, going on this show's track record, the answer would be yes. Then Kenny will go bad again and turn good a third time.

But I did think Robby seeing the error of his ways was well done. It wasn't really him questioning his own actions, but seeing what Cobra Kai's influence was doing to another kid who he knows is good inside. That moment of hesitation cost him the win, but it didn't seem like he cared at all.

I did laugh at Robby stripping off his top and the ref shrugging at Hawk like, 'this is what the people want, pal.'

Tory vs Sam being the climax of the episode was a choice. It made sense, I guess, because their absurd rivalry is the only one that has run through the season. I don't buy Tory suddenly wanting to win fair and square and asking if Sam's okay at the end. Still, that's the next redemption arc, I guess. Maybe season five is Tory joining one of the other dojos and Sam joining Cobra Kai. I mean, she's the only person who hasn't been a part of it yet.

Edited January 15, 2022 by Danny Franks

[twoods]

Sam is definitely joining Cobra Kai. She looked defeated that she tried to win the right way. And Tory didn’t seem too thrilled about winning by cheating. They will switch spots and Daniel will watch in agony while Silver molds Sam into an angry fighter, without Miguel there.

[Amarsir]

On 1/13/2022 at 5:57 AM, moonshine71 said:

Anybody else ever wonder how awful the All Valley Tournament has been over the three decades between the movies and the show? None of the other dojos can manage to get anyone past the quarter finals against these 3 dojos full of students who have been training for just over a year at the most, many significant less. 

I can overlook that by reasoning that they're about the sport of it, or more self-defense focused. That only Cobra Kai and Miyagi-Do are really teaching competitive karate against equals. To that end, Eagle Claw wasn't even in the top 5 after the skills round. (Although Cobra Kai being #1 is still weird.)

Stranger to me is that the committee and announcer are still hung up on Daniel winning two championships in the early 80s. The show itself hung a lampshade on that by having Daniel tell the announcer that Johnny was also a two-time winner. But there have to be a lot of repeat winners in the last 3 decades and even if the fighting wasn't as good those years, those dojos have to be going "What the hell?" that they don't even warrant a mention.

Of course the show is going to focus on the leads, but that kind of reminder seems so unnecessary. Everyone watching already knows about the Karate Kid story. Heck, we probably watched a clip of it in a flashback 10 minutes earlier.

[Megras]

Maybe Daniel & Johnny are the only two still hung up on their past glories all the others have moved on with their lives and are no longer involved. Kind of how when an alumnus visits their old school they get bigged up.

[DoctorAtomic]

Oh, there's no doubt. That's why I was saying to have a segment from a different pov; someone else suggested that be via the local news. You could have a local field anchor getting a quote from another dojo sensei rolling his eyes about how 'here we go again with the drama now that these two are back And eagles don't have fangs you know!'. 

[readster]

Something I find interesting about Kenny and his older brother who was in juvey. These were good kids, Kenny's brother sadly wanted to be part of the "bad crowd" since their dad is active military and the mother seems to cast herself in work. More so now that Kenny's brother is in lock up for probably another year. Sadly, Kenny's bother put himself in the wrong situation that apparently got someone killed. Then he went into the: "Be the tiger or get eaten, but don't snitch." While Kenny was just the new kid and those assholes that Anthony hung with were: "hey let's make this kid's life horrible, just because he's the new kid." Until Kenny beat the shit out of all of them. While Kenny perfect explained to Anthony what he felt like and paying him back. That moment with the smile and Robbie seeing what had happened. That was well done. Hell, all these young actors are good, I really like the new Eagle Fang girl. She knows she lost, but she will do better next time. She isn't a quitter and Johnny really liked that. 

Edited January 23, 2022 by readster
eaten not even.

[Dobian]

So when Miguel was in the examination room with his back, who thought that Daniel was going to walk and and start rubbing his hands together?  Instead he got a bottle of lube from Johnny, lol.

Terry Silver started the season as the voice of sense and reason, and ended it as Terry the Sociopath again.  The writers were sure all over the place with this guy.

I was actually annoyed as the season progressed.  It's clear that kids are just pawns in this ongoing war between Daniel, Johnny, Kreese, and Terry.  And it's going to continue next season.  I'm glad they are bringing Chosen back.  He could take out all four of those numbskulls by himself and put an end to this nonsense.

[threebluestars]

I always felt Sam just liked karate for fun/bonding and actually competing/fighting isn't her thing. I think that's why she comes off so bad in all the fight stuff. She's operating out of fear and trauma and not because she actually wants to be there. I'd prefer it if she "retired" and didn't want to compete. Not because she's upset she lost, but because she just isn't into it in that way.

I'd also like to see Tory tell Sam the match was rigged.

A girl can dream lol.

I really hope Sean Kanan comes back as Barnes.

I'm imagining S6 will be everyone banding together when Miguel's cartel dad shows up to kill them all and karate saves the day lol.

[norcalgal]

2 hours ago, threebluestars said:

I always felt Sam just liked karate for fun/bonding and actually competing/fighting isn't her thing. I think that's why she comes off so bad in all the fight stuff. She's operating out of fear and trauma and not because she actually wants to be there. I'd prefer it if she "retired" and didn't want to compete. Not because she's upset she lost, but because she just isn't into it in that way.

I'd also like to see Tory tell Sam the match was rigged.

A girl can dream lol.

I really hope Sean Kanan comes back as Barnes.

 

ITA to your post...

As to Sean Kanan, he's on Bold & the Beautiful so I dunno if he can work both shows into his schedule.

 

[TVbitch]

I don't remember anything about the movies, but I really enjoy this show. It took me a while to figure it out it was more of a spoof/soap opera, but then I just rolled with it. However, like every good soap opera, they are endlessly recycling plots and playing musical chairs with pairings. I do hope they have a decent ending sketched out. 

WZ is great and so likable. How has he not been on my TV all this time?

 

[Virtual]

So at least from the time 4x08 ended to now, Silver was planning on pushing Kreese out of Cobra Kai. Never thought he’d frame Kreese to have him arrested for Stingray’s beating.

But Kreese definitely had some sort of retribution coming for the way he treated Terry earlier in the season, acting like Terry should be in his control and bringing up his Vietnam triggers. Especially after Kreese was the one who came to Terry asking for his help (not the other way around) pulling him out of his awesome life that he had set up for himself.

Redemption possibilities aside, Kreese has done a lot of bad things that he should have to answer for (strangling Johnny, training impressionable students to beat on people).

Not a good idea for Miguel to go seek out his father. Carmen probably had a damn good reason for fleeing and not telling him about Miguel. I bet he’s in charge of a dangerous cartel or something!

Johnny might not be Miguel’s biological father, but he is definitely a father to him. He taught Miguel how to fight, gave him dating advice, pulled him back when he was getting too aggressive, and he was the one Miguel was able to depend on most when he woke from his coma and was learning to walk again. And his first instinct upon learning Miguel left to look for his bio dad was to go after him and make sure he is safe. Those all sound like things a father would do for his son.

I’m sure Kreese would call off the bet with Daniel and Johnny since Silver betrayed him and stole Cobra Kai, but I don’t see how he can get out of jail unless someone can attest to where Kreese was at the time of Stingray’s beating.

The writers have done it again. They pulled off something I never thought would be possible in Kreese being able to pull back some from his “no mercy at all times” stance. He was one of those TV characters on my list who I thought were destined to stay the undeniable villain. But these writers have pulled off making him seem redeemable. I commend them for that.

[greyhorse]

Finally caught up and finished this series.

Interesting that Johnny called on Kreese for help, only to see Kreese force him out of Cobra Kai.  And now it appears the same has happened to Kreese in regards to Silver.

I don't like the Silver character nor the actor, but have to admit that the actor does a really good job of portraying the evilness.  Didn't see the Stingray twist coming at all.  Kind of forgot who this Stingray guy was to begin with.  Hard to believe that a grown adult would allow himself to be subjected to a beating and then used as a pawn in some evil manipulations, just to get into a dojo that doesn't respect or believe in him anyway.  Why didn't Stingray just go to Miyagi Do or Eagle Fang?

A little surprised that there was no mention of the bet.  Wasn't the bet that Miyagi Do and Eagle Fang would have to close its doors?  Which is insane.  It's not like Cobra Kai would have ceased its operation if they had lost.

Tory is unlikable but I'm hoping she does the right thing and tells somebody she saw the ref getting paid off by Silver.

Also an unlikable character is the kid Larusso son.  He's a bully but has no reason to be a bully.  And his haircut is awful.

Loving that the nerd got the hottest blonde girl in the class.  Giving hope to nerds everywhere!

[Raja]

4 hours ago, greyhorse said:

 Didn't see the Stingray twist coming at all.  Kind of forgot who this Stingray guy was to begin with.  Hard to believe that a grown adult would allow himself to be subjected to a beating and then used as a pawn in some evil manipulations, just to get into a dojo that doesn't respect or believe in him anyway.  Why didn't Stingray just go to Miyagi Do or Eagle Fang?

 

Because Cobra Kai is bad ass and Eagle Fang has not built a reputation yet. The valley karate establishment couldn't even remember its sensei was the first two time All Valley champion.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Raja

[greyhorse]

11 minutes ago, Raja said:

Because Cobra Kai is bad ass and Eagle Fang has not built a reputation yet. The valley karate establishment couldn't even remember its sensei was the first two time All Valley champion.

Well, yes, it was a rhetorical question.  I think I recall Stingray from Season 2?  He joined Johnny's Cobra Kai, and wasn't he the guy that helped break up the brawl at the school in the finale?

I guess while we'll always see Daniel as the ultimate protagonist of this show, it is, after all, named Cobra Kai.  So I supposed Johnny really is supposed to be the #1 lead.  But we naturally know that won't happen as this is the Karate Kid franchise.

[Raja]

1 minute ago, greyhorse said:

Well, yes, it was a rhetorical question.  I think I recall Stingray from Season 2?  He joined Johnny's Cobra Kai, and wasn't he the guy that helped break up the brawl at the school in the finale?

I guess while we'll always see Daniel as the ultimate protagonist of this show, it is, after all, named Cobra Kai.  So I supposed Johnny really is supposed to be the #1 lead.  But we naturally know that won't happen as this is the Karate Kid franchise.

I wouldn't say Stingray was helping to break it up, he seemed more like a combatant on the Cobra Kai side even if he had school security credentials.

[Virtual]

It’s bad enough that Stingray was willing to let Silver beat him within an inch of his life just to be part of a karate community, and sad as well. Did no one want to be his friend in High School, and he constantly got made fun of/called a loser? I can’t think of any other reason he lacks so much self respect. 

Everybody that was in Cobra Kai when he initially joined in Season 2 were no longer there, except Tory and Dieter. I guarantee you the only reason Kreese’s Cobra Kai students (at least Kyler, Piper and several others who follow the hype and popularity train wherever it goes) liked him was because he threw them a party.

[Silver4life]

Anyone else think silver is misunderstood? Kreese was always bringing up Vietnam to almost blackmail silver to following his orders and I personally think by paying the refs in the last episode he was only evening out the obvious bias they already had towards their favourite Daniel son and his do jo.

[Silver4life]

On 2/23/2022 at 3:31 AM, Virtual said:

It’s bad enough that Stingray was willing to let Silver beat him within an inch of his life just to be part of a karate community, and sad as well. Did no one want to be his friend in High School, and he constantly got made fun of/called a loser? I can’t think of any other reason he lacks so much self respect. 

Everybody that was in Cobra Kai when he initially joined in Season 2 were no longer there, except Tory and Dieter. I guarantee you the only reason Kreese’s Cobra Kai students (at least Kyler, Piper and several others who follow the hype and popularity train wherever it goes) liked him was because he threw them a party.

On 2/23/2022 at 3:31 AM, Virtual said:

It’s bad enough that Stingray was willing to let Silver beat him within an inch of his life just to be part of a karate community, and sad as well. Did no one want to be his friend in High School, and he constantly got made fun of/called a loser? I can’t think of any other reason he lacks so much self respect. 

Everybody that was in Cobra Kai when he initially joined in Season 2 were no longer there, except Tory and Dieter. I guarantee you the only reason Kreese’s Cobra Kai students (at least Kyler, Piper and several others who follow the hype and popularity train wherever it goes) liked him was because he threw them a party.

Silver gave stingray what was coming yo

him. He has no time for weakness 

[CeeBeeGee]

Jesus, Kenny. Now I don't feel sorry for you. Now you've turned into just another Cobra Kai asshole, another bully.

Poor Miguel. Johnny is simply not hearing him.

"I blew it." At least Johnny admits it was his fault.

Nie to see Danny finally realizing that Eagle Fang is just as valid a way to do karate as Miyagi-Do.

Is Robby allowed to compete like that, without a belt, his uniform (gi?) flapping open? It seems like that would be a violation.

Yayyyyyy Eli! Robby is the runner-up, two years in a row.

Yayyyyyy, Johnny and Danny respecting each other again!!!

Howwwww do these kids all not have MAJOR injuries? Getting kicked in the jaw? Is this exaggerated or are all karate meets like this? I mean, I'm afraid to learn the jumps in skating because I don't want to fall, this looks brutal.

I'm calling it now, Terry Silver will be arrested before the end of Tory and Sam's fight. I can't see why they would've shown us Stingray waking up otherwise.

Look at Kreese, finally learning and growing! God, I love the writing on this show. Plus, I think he genuinely feels paternal, in his weird way, toward Tory.

And Tory showing growth as well! I love it.

Okay, so maybe Terry won't be arrested during their fight--but surely he will be arrested?

HOLY SHIIIIIIIIIII

OMG, Tory had to have been devastated seeing Silver pay off the ref. 

Beautiful scene between Robby and Johnny.

Silver with the truth bombs! "Your weakness is Johnny Lawrence."

I KNEW IT!!!!!!!!!! Loved Kreese figuring it out immediately. "What did you do?" 

Oh shit, I think I know what's about to happen--

NAILED IT.

Surely the police will be able to look at the forensic evidence (for one thing SIlver is noticeably taller than Kreese so his kicks would land differently) and tell it wasn't Kreese? I will say, there's a certain rough justice in Silver stealing Cobra Kai from Kreese, when Kreese did it to Johnny.

Tory can ID Silver as a cheater and they can check the ref's bank account.

[CeeBeeGee]

On 1/3/2022 at 1:36 AM, Ambrosefolly said:

I would go as far as to call Tori an asshole. She did try to kill Sam and disfigured her, egged on Hawk to break Dmitri's arm and participated in a home invasion that injured several kids and trashed someone's home, helped Cobra Kai hold Hawk down while Robby cut off his mohawk (even though Silver and Kreese told them not to attack Eagle Fang or Miyagi until the All Valley, something Johnny honored in the first film), and never apologized to the people she directly hurt, except Amanda.  Doesn't mean the audience can't like her or sympathize with her plight, but again, her shitty situation doesn't give her the right to terrorize people.

However, I think Amanda made the right call in giving Tory the okay to return to school & trying to help her out. Because Tory is ultimately a stressed out kid with a huge chip on her shoulder. Hopefully Tory flicker of genuine concern after beating Sam in the match was real & she will make amends next season as Hawk did this season. 

I was impressed with her flicker at the end, it reminded me of Johnny being gracious in defeat at the end of the first film. But yeah, she has been a gigantic, criminal asshole and Sam has every right and reason to despise her.

 

On 1/4/2022 at 7:02 AM, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

Thomas Ian Griffith's limitations as an actor keep me from fully engaging in the Kreese/Silver storyline. He just doesn't do well with any kind of subtlety. We buy Silver and Kreese's friendship mostly because Martin Kove (in great shape and obviously having the time of his life) sells the hell out of it.

I have to say, Martin Kove's acting has greatly improved since the '80s. He was a little embarrassing in some of those scenes, the worst being "You're a pushy little bastard, aintcha? But I like that!" He's much more minimalist now.

Edited April 3, 2022 by CeeBeeGee

[Lugal]

I ended up binging this series in about a week, but kind of funny how Daniel and Johnny (unintentionally) and Kreese and Silver (intentionally) ended up creating rival karate gangs.

This was badass episode (to quote Johnny), I love how everything came together, Johnny and Daniel finally on the same side and respecting each other.  I'm looking forward to seeing Miyagi-Fang next seasons.  You know Daniel and Johnny aren't going to quit.  Especially if they end up teaming up with Chozen.

Ending with the Tori/Sam match felt right.  They both have their asshole moments, but you can understand why they hate each other. But I think Tori did take Johnny's lesson to heart about beating your opponent at their strongest and not on technicalities or due to Silver's bribes. I think this may be the start of Tori's redemption.

My personal theory is that Mike Barnes is Tori's father, rather than Miguel's.  Mostly because I can believe Peyton as Sean Kanan's kid more than Xolo.  Especially when Yaya said that Miguel resembles his father.

As for Sam, I think she may go dark, but I doubt she'd join Cobra Kai, because there's too much bad blood there and it would mean betraying all her friends.  Personally I think it would be interesting to see her take Chozen's lessons while going for vengeance against Tori.

I also assume in future seasons they'll have an Over-18 All Valley Karate Tournament, because I would think a lot of these kids will be aging out of eligibility soon.

In the bigger picture, the show is a strange mix of 80s and modern tropes, which can sometimes be kind of glaring.  Like lots of 80's movies, parents were largely absent and authority figures in general were variously apathetic, incompetent or gung ho which can make them comical or villainous depending on the story.  Then we have the modern ideas of more developed villains who are at least offered a chance of redemption, and a more gray morality.  But the central theme of the show is balance whether it's watching kids go from bully victims to bullying assholes and finally back to decent people, or just finding the right mix of 80's and 20's tropes.

[BlueSkies]

On 5/2/2022 at 2:29 PM, Lugal said:

In the bigger picture, the show is a strange mix of 80s and modern tropes, which can sometimes be kind of glaring.  Like lots of 80's movies, parents were largely absent and authority figures in general were variously apathetic, incompetent or gung ho which can make them comical or villainous depending on the story.  Then we have the modern ideas of more developed villains who are at least offered a chance of redemption, and a more gray morality.  But the central theme of the show is balance whether it's watching kids go from bully victims to bullying assholes and finally back to decent people, or just finding the right mix of 80's and 20's tropes.

I agree.  And that Johnny and Daniel aren't any better than each other and or their styles.

The Miyagi Do method is great having balance in all aspects of life and fighting defensively.  But in life there are times you have to be aggressive and can't just be on defense all the time.  

Even their music tastes:  when Miguel got introduced to Pete Cetera and Christopher Cross through Daniel he told Johnny they are both cool as is his more heavy metal music he likes.  

[marinw]

It just occurred to me that although Danny is objectively more financially successful than Johnny due to his car dealership, Johnny, like Miyagi when he was first introduced in the original KK, is a maintenance / handyperson. I think that’s a nice, subtle touch.

Edited July 29, 2022 by marinw

[BlueSkies]

11 hours ago, marinw said:

It just occurred to me that although Danny is objectively more financially successful than Johnny due to his car dealership, Johnny, like Miyagi when he was first introduced in the original KK, is a maintenance / handyperson. I think that’s a nice, subtle touch.

While how much money and resources a man has doesn't define him, it's interesting to me next season Silver I'm sure can match Daniel's money and resources.  If not more.

When we got re-introduced to Johnny and Kreese, Kreese was homeless and Johnny was a maintenance man as you mentioned who just got fired and drank too much 

Edited July 30, 2022 by BlueSkies

[BlueSkies]

On 3/9/2022 at 7:42 AM, Silver4life said:

Anyone else think silver is misunderstood? Kreese was always bringing up Vietnam to almost blackmail silver to following his orders and I personally think by paying the refs in the last episode he was only evening out the obvious bias they already had towards their favourite Daniel son and his do jo.

A little late to this party as I just joined these forums.  But yeah part of me feels for Terry.

I don't blame Daniel for not forgiving him but I do think Terry was sincere in his apology to him.  Terry still had his more subdued personality at first running the dojo.  Daniel's reaction to him and Kreese constantly gaslighting him brought out the beast again by the series end 

[BlueSkies]

Terry said in the 5th season he paid off the refs as "insurance".  Not that they actually decided for Tory.

I still say Sam and Tory are equal in terms of fighters

[Raja]

On 1/13/2022 at 2:57 AM, moonshine71 said:

Anybody else ever wonder how awful the All Valley Tournament has been over the three decades between the movies and the show? None of the other dojos can manage to get anyone past the quarter finals against these 3 dojos full of students who have been training for just over a year at the most, many significant less.

On this mid season 6 rewatch having forgotten how far a particular fighter went up the tournament. The none of the other dojo's showing up was more noticed.  I could head canon that while all these other kids took the discipline and training over the years.  They were limited to half speed sparing until the tournament times came.  The Miyagi-Do, Cobra Kai and Eagle Fang fighters except for Devon and Piper, who rose to the top were combat veterans of the school and house fights