Season 1 Talk: Childhood Games Turn Deadly

[Racj82]

1 hour ago, Evie said:

I always find that dubbing takes me out of shows. The voice acting just isn't that good, usually. I much prefer subtitles and the actors real voices. 

I'm never going to finish watching something if I have read out all the dialogue. Dubs all the way for me. 

It has been said that there are slight differences in dialogue that work better in subtitle version. 

[Melina22]

23 minutes ago, Racj82 said:

I has been said that there are slight differences in dialogue that work better in subtitle version. 

I prefer subtitles but my husband is like you, hates reading them. That said, I find the subtitles in this show extremely short and easy to read. 

[Racj82]

7 hours ago, Melina22 said:

I prefer subtitles but my husband is like you, hates reading them. That said, I find the subtitles in this show extremely short and easy to read. 

I'm a way I've seen both. It seems like every youtube reactor I watch uses subs so I've seen both.

[Scout Finch]

15 hours ago, Evie said:

I always find that dubbing takes me out of shows. The voice acting just isn't that good, usually. I much prefer subtitles and the actors real voices. 

I always use subtitles but tried the English audio so I wouldn't miss any dialogue when I turned away during gory parts. However, that only lasted about five minutes because the English voices didn't really match the weightier acting so I switched back to subtitles. Although there were a few times where I had my hand blocking everything on the screen except for the very bottom where I could still see the subtitles, I did okay with all the violence!

Edited October 10, 2021 by Scout Finch

[Dancingjaneway]

This show wasn't even on my radar because I hardly ever watch Netflix but a few people were talking about it in a Twitch chat & I got curious. Wow! This show was brilliant...up until the end. The characters were well crafted, they did a great job of getting us attached to them, the visuals were incredible & the story was well done.

Spoiler

Sadly, the ending was none of the above. It was like a different person had written the ending. The horrible twist with the old man felt cheap & lazy. The MC's hair was ridiculous & the whole police investigation went nowhere. I would love to know if that was his original ending or if he re-wrote it so there would be a season 2. The show was like a game of red light, green light in the way that it was intense, enthralling but didn't stick the landing & we lost. 

 

[Rickster]

I was not a huge fan of the reveal at the end either. I also thought the one misstep the show made earlier was the introduction of the VIPs, who were poorly acted and tonally didn't seem to fit with the rest of the show. Maybe they have some resonance in Korea as symbols of exploitation by foreign countries, since they were all foreigners?

I also thought the policeman's cell phone data might be a plot point in a season 2.

[Sheikh Yerbouti]

Do we still need to use spoiler tags now that the complete season has been out for a while? Just in case, here are my impressions having binged the entire season in one sitting equivalent to an actual long-haul flight to Korea.

Spoiler

 

I missed the clues that Player 001 was behind it all because I was too busy trying to figure out how the detective's brother was the Front Man if he'd only been missing for a short while, and why the Front Man felt he had no choice but to kill his brother. After the big reveal, I though Gi-Hun would be invited to be the next Front Man. And then any future season would have him restructuring the games so that altruistic behavior (a la Ali) would be rewarded and selfish behavior would get you eliminated.

I didn't trust Sang-Woo from the moment he suggested the team split up for the honeycomb game. He knew what it was, which is why he immediately volunteered for the triangle, the easiest shape. There was a moment when he faltered and seemingly was going to tell Gi-Hun not to choose the umbrella, but then he let his childhood friend go to a seemingly inevitable death anyway.

The games had an interesting progression. Two games where the players were basically competing against themselves, and there was no limit to the number who could progress to the next round (red light green light, honeycomb). Then on to the zero-sum games, where one's winning meant someone else had to die (tug-of-war, marbles). That's when the emphasis on teamwork came into play. Then a game of luck, where being first or last to take a turn made a difference in your chance of survival (glass bridge), then the final head-to-head competition of the squid game. Not to mention the free-for-all “special game” in the dormitory to encourage the players to turn on each other and cull the competition. Also not to mention how for all the talk of fairness in the games (hence the execution of the doctor and organ smugglers), the rules of the glass bridge changed mid-game when the players figured out the solution.

Leading into tug-of-war, at first I thought the scene where the players had to choose a team of ten was the game, and that at the end of the time period, any team that wasn't complete would be eliminated. So much focus on sexism and age and strength choices there. I was starting to feel really icky about how the show was portraying Mi-Nyeo (the outspoken woman with the long curly hair). The trope about open sexuality meaning you had to die and all that. Loved how they resolved the scene of last person out. That was the point where I also wanted to shout to people not to team up with their besties, in case they ended up playing against each other. That wasn't the case with the tug-of-war, but by the time we got to marbles, it was impossible to ignore the warnings NOT to partner with someone you cared about.

 

The fact that I pulled an all-nighter and spent nine hours reading subtitles (when I rarely watch tv without doing something else at the same time) is a testament to how great this show is. I don’t want a second season to ruin it.

And one last thing -- the fact that the story repeatedly emphasized that Sae-Byeok was a North Korean defector took me out of it. The actress is like 5'9, way too tall to play a North Korean in desperate straits. 

Edited October 10, 2021 by Sheikh Yerbouti

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Since the show has been available for a while and most posters have seen the entire show, spoiler tags are not needed.  If you have not finished watching a;ll episodes of season 1*, read at your own risk of being heavily spoiled. 

*There is no confirmation whether this is a one or multi-season show. 

[Scout Finch]

6 hours ago, Sheikh Yerbouti said:

The fact that I pulled an all-nighter and spent nine hours reading subtitles (when I rarely watch tv without doing something else at the same time) is a testament to how great this show is. I don’t want a second season to ruin it.

Yesterday I also watched it in one setting. I kept looking up the specific USD equivalents to the Korean won and it was obvious that I was far from being the only one since whenever I did a search for a particular amount it was one of the suggestions when I would start typing it in the search bar! 

To break some of my tension--and because, frankly, I crack myself up!--when they would walk into a new game room and look around in wonderment before we finally got to see it too, I'd sometimes do those annoying expository lines from reality shows: "So we walk into this big, white room and we're wondering, 'What is that thing? What are they going to make us do?' And we have NO idea what game this is."

Edited October 10, 2021 by Scout Finch

[AnnieBananie]

I was really pleased that Korean-American actors were hired to do the dubbing, rather than just random white folks. (Because I feel that Hollywood would lazy out and hire guys. But Netflix has higher standards.)

[SourK]

On 10/8/2021 at 10:13 PM, Racj82 said:

Some of my favorite reactors The Normies just dropped their latest reaction. The moment when they realize the tug of war is literal cliffhanger was amazing.

 

Neat. I hadn't seen them before, but I just caught up on their Squid Game reactions. It's fun to watch people get stressed and surprised by this show.

10 hours ago, Sheikh Yerbouti said:

 

  Hide contents

The games had an interesting progression. Two games where the players were basically competing against themselves, and there was no limit to the number who could progress to the next round (red light green light, honeycomb). Then on to the zero-sum games, where one's winning meant someone else had to die (tug-of-war, marbles). That's when the emphasis on teamwork came into play. Then a game of luck, where being first or last to take a turn made a difference in your chance of survival (glass bridge), then the final head-to-head competition of the squid game. Not to mention the free-for-all “special game” in the dormitory to encourage the players to turn on each other and cull the competition. Also not to mention how for all the talk of fairness in the games (hence the execution of the doctor and organ smugglers), the rules of the glass bridge changed mid-game when the players figured out the solution.

 

The changes to the bridge game seem dodgy to me, too. I actually don't think this game show is a meritocracy, but Front Man seems to think it is, so I found it suspect that he would just randomly change the game because the contestants were doing too well. It felt like the writers needed a way for the final three to realistically survive the game, but then they also needed to kill off the extra person who helped them, because having four people in the finals would mess up the dramatic arc that builds to the final showdown. A simpler solution would have been to make it so there was something hanging overhead that cast weird shadows at either end of the bridge, so he couldn't see the last tiles properly -- or make it so somebody other than Front Man interfered.

In general, I think the game is a really good metaphor for how people get rich -- through the combination of luck, effort, and ruthlessness described in the final episode. Plus indirectly benefiting from evil -- like how everyone who survived indirectly benefited when Deok-su murdered a bunch of the contestants -- and finding favour with people who are already powerful (Gganbu). If you're a good person, you can't get rich without being traumatized by how wealth is produced.

So, in that sense, the thing where the game feels kind of random and unfair sometimes rings true -- I just don't buy that that matches Front Man's world view.

[anniebird]

Here's an interesting article about the subtitle translations and how they change the story because  of missed nuances. https://slate.com/culture/2021/10/squid-game-netflix-subtitles-translation-capitalism.html?fbclid=IwAR3PGieBbXLKzpOak6sXc3cCd4my_t8NvfOgWzayx8ZfELxlOnua-5D8P3A

When I switched from English to Korean audio I realized Ali was calling Sang-Woo Sa Bum Nim which I know, from my son's 7 years in Korean karate, means "Master" which is quite different from calling him "Sir." 

[Melina22]

That was an interesting article. I was particularly interested in the part which says that it's very difficult to convey all the subtleties of a different language and culture in the subtitles without losing the viewers. I mean, you want subtitles short and clear, not long explanations of language use. 

I think what annoys me is when people become extreme about the subtitles. The article actually implies that without more nuanced and perfect subtitles, the whole show is reduced to "violence p*rn" for people who just enjoy seeing Asian people killed, just like the VIPs. . I mean, what? I perfectly understood Ali's tragedy and relative situation despite the apparently subpar subtitles. 

I always accept that subtitles are always going to be imperfect, but I like to hear the original language. Even without understanding the language, hearing the real voices gives me so many clues. 

[PrincessPurrsALot]

I may rewatch with the Korean language on.  I listened to the dubbed version but found some of the voiceover actors very weak, especially the ones dubbing Mi-nyeo and Gi-hun.  Watching the actors expressions and actions was much more powerful.  I would like to hear their voices. 

I can agree with the article that Netflix does a poor job in translations.  I have watched a few shows in languages that I know a little of and have been surprised by how far off things can be.  Sometimes to whether or not the word "not" is included in a statement, completely reversing the meaning. 

But I too got that Ali was an outsider to many of the contestants, much as Sae-byeok was derided for being North Korean.  The language distinctions that the article mentions; i.e., the difference between Sir and Master or Boss and using a person's name versus calling them brother, would have strengthened the English version of the show.  However, I did not see the show as violence porn.  The overarching themes of impacts of capitalism and imbalanced distribution of wealth were there along with many other deeper themes. 

[Evie]

Netflix translations aren't the greatest but the Korean honorific system is quite complicated. I don't think the casual viewer could keep up with longer explanations. Even with some watered down translations, I think the audience understood more than some seem to think.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Evie

[nomodrama]

On 10/9/2021 at 8:28 AM, Evie said:

I always find that dubbing takes me out of shows. The voice acting just isn't that good, usually. I much prefer subtitles and the actors real voices. 

I'm not a fan of dubbing either, but I had to watch this dubbed, I just couldn't sit still enough to burn thru this with subtitles, and I have to say the dubbing for this wasn't not that bad. At least it isn't Money Heist dubbing bad, I'm still haven't watched that one because I refuse to watch it dubbed. 

[hypnotoad]

Quote

The mystery and speculation is great fun but the characters, imo, keep you involved. It's why I still love Lost. I'm not complaining over ten years later about lack of answers. I got the answers I needed. The relationships between the characters and their arcs is what made it special.

We are kindred spirits on Lost - I loved it from beginning to end. I had no issue at all with the final episode. I cried at all the people finding each other again!

I binged this over a couple of days. I read subtitles. I find the English dub is usually pretty bad and it annoys me and pulls me out of the story.

I figured old dude was in on it when we didn't see his demise. I was a little annoyed it took the winner a whole year later and meeting with the head bad guy to finally help out that little boy. I get guilt and trauma but he sort of made promises!

I hated the red hair at the end, it was ridiculous. And also why red?!?

I don't think the show needs a 2nd season but I'm sure it will happen. He'll go after the people involved.

[libgirl2]

6 hours ago, hypnotoad said:

 

I figured old dude was in on it when we didn't see his demise. I was a little annoyed it took the winner a whole year later and meeting with the head bad guy to finally help out that little boy. I get guilt and trauma but he sort of made promises!

I hated the red hair at the end, it was ridiculous. And also why red?!?

I think it took him a year to help out because when he was done, he was shell shocked. Imagine going through something like that? He was wandering in a daze just trying to process it all. 

I read a theory on the red hair 

Spoiler

Its a symbol of red light/green light. Red is stop.... he is going to be the one who will stop this once and for all. 

 

[BetterButter]

 

[ctmd]

so I've obsessively watched and read so many things about Squid Game after completing it, but have not seen a single message of the cop/frontman's exchange and why cop said "you know" when frontman asked why he couldn't come with him. Did I miss something that I was supposed to know? Or is it just the obvious "you know I can't let you not kill me when I now know you've killed hundreds of other people." 

[Lamima]

Haven't read many posts. Like just the first handful. Because I am only on epi 3. But everyone seems to love this show. It is falling short for me. I guess I am the only one. But there is just too much suspension of disbelief for me. And then some stuff is just odd that I am wondering the meaning...like the little figurine jazz band thing (what is that supposed to mean?) and the colorful willy wonka staircase. 

[Racj82]

Well...the normies finally got to THAT episode. I'm always curious about everyone's reactions to episode six.

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by Racj82

[Racj82]

2 hours ago, Lamima said:

Haven't read many posts. Like just the first handful. Because I am only on epi 3. But everyone seems to love this show. It is falling short for me. I guess I am the only one. But there is just too much suspension of disbelief for me. And then some stuff is just odd that I am wondering the meaning...like the little figurine jazz band thing (what is that supposed to mean?) and the colorful willy wonka staircase. 

There is no one thing that everyone likes so you are not the only one. Having watched and loved the show, those things you brought up mean nothing to me. I know what they are but it doesn't matter. You don't have to catch every bit of symbolism. The characters, the obvious class struggles and the interplay of the game are the things that draw you in. As the show goes on, you get more and more into the characters and the game. Which tugs at you because inevitably you are going to lose these people. It's high concept meets engaging characters. It won't be for everyone but that is why most are loving it. I wasn't fully invested until episode 4 and from that point on, I was in.

[kittykat]

On 10/10/2021 at 3:09 PM, SourK said:

The changes to the bridge game seem dodgy to me, too. I actually don't think this game show is a meritocracy, but Front Man seems to think it is, so I found it suspect that he would just randomly change the game because the contestants were doing too well. It felt like the writers needed a way for the final three to realistically survive the game, but then they also needed to kill off the extra person who helped them, because having four people in the finals would mess up the dramatic arc that builds to the final showdown. A simpler solution would have been to make it so there was something hanging overhead that cast weird shadows at either end of the bridge, so he couldn't see the last tiles properly -- or make it so somebody other than Front Man interfered.

It reminds me of Peter Thiel every time he says the tech business is a meritocracy.  Sure Jan.

The Front Man's logic is flawed and dimming the lights in episode 7 was a totally unnecessary intervention.  He always says everything must be fair but the fact is even the most basic person can possess some sort of innate advantage in life.  Like a teen having a better grasp of the law because their parents are lawyers.  The glass guy using his life knowledge in a game is not more an advantage than hiding behind another person in red light green light. I think he did it because the VIPS we're bitching about it.  And count me in on those actors being God awful.  The one American looked and acted like a Poor Man's Armie Hammer, which is NOT a good thing.

Not sure how the Emmys are going to react to this but really hope Lee Jyung-Jae gets some recognition.  

of all the side stories for only three episodes Ji-Yeoung was so gutting.  A tortured life that was never even given a chance to rebound.

I predicted both major twists with regards to In-Ho and Il-Nam but still felt satisfied because they were well done.  I felt better on my hunch on #001 when Mi-nyeo was still alive after marbles.  There's a joke to be found about Mi-nyeo not playing marbles well because doesn't have many left but I'll just leave it.  I'm glad she got her revenge in the end.  

if there is a season 2 there would be some form of cat and mouse game between Gi-Hun and In-Ho which could be interesting.  Two former winners, two completely different mindsets with how the game has left them.

I really enjoyed this.  All the messages will be with me for a while.

[30 Helens]

I binged this over two nights, because it is that compelling. But I may have nightmares for awhile, because it was also a LOT. But I think the ultraviolence, while shocking at first, also works against the emotional impact of later episodes. By the time I got to the part where people I cared about were being eliminated, I was so numb to the blood and shooting that it almost became rote. (Or maybe that was also the point.)

Either way, the girl who sacrificed herself for the Pickpocket still got me a little misty. And while I had already gone from liking Sang-Woo to mistrusting him after the triangle shape stunt, what he did to Ali made me want to push in the knife myself. Kudos for a well-played, well-written character arc.

A few other observations:

- As a non-Korean speaker, I can’t judge the accuracy of the subtitles, but they seemed fine to me. (I used subtitles, not CC.) Very often, subtitles use klunky, unnatural phrasing and you just know they’re missing the original intent. I felt like these got the ideas across in a way that was succinct, but not distracting. (I’m also not bothered by the criticism of using “sir” instead of “boss” because I think it conveys a similar deference.) The only thing that DID bother me about the subtitles is they were usually about 2 beats ahead of the dialogue. This was a problem when people were talking fast, because one person would be talking while the subtitle showed what the other person was about to say. Sometimes, it was hard to follow who was saying what.

- Did anyone else think 001 looked just like a Korean Christopher Walken? I mean, like brothers from a globe-trotting mother? All he needed for the full effect was a smoking jacket and glass of cham-pahn-ya. (Very old SNL reference.)

-Although the subtitles didn’t bother me, ironically the English speaking parts did. When the VIPs were talking, it sounded like very bad dubbing. It was so bad, it made me devise my own conspiracy theory:. What if the American Netflix feed shows a version of Squid Game with English-speaking VIPs, but when it’s shown in France the VIPs are French, or German in Germany, etc… so that every country sees its own capitalist elite as the villains. I mean, the probable truth is they just hired terrible actors (because who represents callous rich voyeurs better than Americans), but I still like my idea.

- I don’t know which Iphone that cop had, but I want one. That was some crazy battery life. Dude was still taking photos (and videos!) on day 5 or 6,  presumably without a recharge. Impressive!

On 10/12/2021 at 5:45 AM, libgirl2 said:

I read a theory on the red hair 

  Hide contents

Its a symbol of red light/green light. Red is stop.... he is going to be the one who will stop this once and for all. 

 

I think it was meant to mirror the red of the guards’ suits. Now that he has money, he’s joined the side of the oppressors, whether he likes it or not.

They certainly left the door open for a second season, but I hope it doesn’t happen. This one got its points across just fine, and I think it should stand on its own.

[The Mighty Peanut]

So I binged it and Netflix fully shamed me ("Are you still watching? STILL? ARE YOU SURE?") but I have no remorse. I can't remember the last time I have been so excited about a show. I really can't, like, I'm sitting by myself and I say to myself, "Self? Have you EVER been this into anything? I mean, I know we like post-apocalyptic dystopias, but The Handmaid's Tale doesn't make me feel some type of way like this does."

Personally, I want a season 2. The director has already talked about the plots he wants to explore for the second season (it has not been officially picked up, I don't think a spitballing random ideas counts as being a spoiler but better safe than sorry)

Spoiler

and among them are Gi-hun's inability to let go of the games and how far he is willing to go to stop them, In-ho's backstory and how he came to be Front Man, more about his brother and their relationship, where the guards come from and their social hierarchy, how is it that so many people can just disappear and no one notices (i.e. who in law enforcement and the government are keeping it under wraps), even how the recruiter got his job. 

My personal observations: Jun-ho is not dead. That was not a fatal shot and he would have likely fallen into the water; we already know he can swim. If there's no body, they're alive.

This isn't actually my personal observation, it's from a YT video about the old man: He was protected the whole time. When the red light, green light doll scanned the players for movement, Il-Nam was the only player on the field whose movement was never registered. During the tug-of-war challenge, his cuffs were the kind you could slip off, whereas the other players were physically padlocked. How the guards shut down the nighttime riots the minute Il-Nam said he was scared. Just so much stuff.

 

I want to know about the guards so much. I don't buy the theory that it's decided on what tile color chosen during recruitment, IIRC it's been debunked already and besides, this show has a very consistent color scheme and would probably go with hot pink and that greenish blue were they going to head in that direction. Since the square guy who took off his mask at gunpoint was so young, I'm wondering if they are criminal youth and this was how to avoid jail and/or life on the streets, or if their families are in trouble too and becoming a killer is the only way to help them. I want to find out where the majority falls between "just following orders" and "killing for fun and profit". 

Sang-woo. Listen, he did Ali dirty. He slit Sae-Byeok's throat. He let his childhood best friend choose the fucking umbrella. So, I get why people would hate him and consider him a villain. I actually don't; I think he just has the singular goal of making things right for his mother and if that means being ruthless, he'll be ruthless. He doesn't get pleasure out of killing, he doesn't seek out weaker people to kill like the gangster group, and his logic regarding Sae-Byeok was pretty on point--she was going to die anyway and as long as she was alive they ran the risk of leaving the game with no money. All he cared about was that money for his mom, his own life was secondary. He proved that with his last act.

Gi-hun. As much as I adore him, Gi-hun did some evil himself when he tricked the old man out of his marbles (even though he didn't and he lived blah blah blah blah). I also can't help but think he is screwing his daughter over YET AGAIN by getting her hopes up and then leaving for something more important that's related to large sums of money and dangerous men. He's not without sin. I'm not trying to shit on him though, I know he's a good guy and I can't emphasize enough how charming and lovable I think he is. It struck me that his life on the outside was plagued with rotten luck and bad choices, but on the inside he was a pretty lucky and shrewd guy--getting the 16 vest at the last minute, being in front of Ali at the exact right moment during RLGL, using just enough sweat and spit to show the guards a perfect umbrella.

Edited October 14, 2021 by The Mighty Peanut

[CrazyDog]

I finally finished this too, and while a fantastic series, it was not an easy watch. 

The "games" being presented as some sort of fair, equal opportunity chance to the hundreds of players, while never revealing that there would be a mass execution in game one was so anger inducing. The players may have known more about what they were getting into when they "chose" to return, but there is no denying that they were not given the full truth at the beginning. 

Not to mention the idea of "choice" in the lives of these characters is very complex. 

Ali, Sae-byeok, Ji-yeong, and the husband and wife team broke my heart. What a cruel yet brilliant twist as the games progress to turn them against each other as the players develop bonds. 

The VIPs seemed really unnecessary to the story, as well as the turning off the lights to the bridge game. 

I enjoyed the wits of the detective and his magic phone. Same question as to is this the first time his brother has hosted the games, and so gone missing? But he won a couple of years prior? I missed the date.

I've seen a lot of hate directed to Gi-hun online too, which I think is interesting. He is a lousy father, and (ex) husband, and I admit I almost turned off the show during the first 10 minutes of the first episode because he was such an unlikeable character, especially towards his mother. But his humanity through the rest of the series made me feel for him. A totally flawed character, but one I could root for. Watching him trick the old man during the marble game was so hard to watch, but at least we could see him wrestling with that decision.

I thought it was interesting that they spared him having to kill Sang-woo. I don't know how much of Sang-woo's motivations were himself vs. his mother. Not only was he facing huge financial ruin and shame, but also serious legal issues.

My only concern for a possible S2 is that I do not see Gi-hun as having the wits or means to take on the games, with the level of surveillance and resources they have. Maybe teamed up with the detective, who I am guessing is still alive. But Gi-hun is so impulsive and naive. Seeing him harden up a bit could be an interesting arc though.

Great show that I am still thinking about. 

[libgirl2]

There are a lot of loose ends that could use a season 2. I'm still wondering about the organs. 

Edited October 13, 2021 by libgirl2

[hypnotoad]

Quote

I think it took him a year to help out because when he was done, he was shell shocked. Imagine going through something like that?

Fair point and I get it but here's the thing - he chose to go back and suffer through it! I get him being appalled by the entire experience but it isn't like he was forced to participate! None of them were. Sure, they had no idea what was going on before red light, green light. But once they came back? They knew exactly what was happening and they knew full well what could happen.

[Mabinogia]

3 hours ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

So I binged it and Netflix fully shamed me ("Are you still watching? STILL? ARE YOU SURE?") but I have no remorse.

Hmm, not sure what it says about me that I binged the whole thing in one day and not once did Netflix check on me. Of course, I do know what it says about me that I saw the partner being put against each other one on one in the marble game coming a mile away. I mean, duh, if I'm an evil nutter who is executing people who fail at children's games for fun I'm totally going to play that mind fuck on them. Maybe that's why Netflix opted to just leave me to my own fate. LOL

This was one of the most intense emotional rollercoasters I've been on in a long time. Kudos to every single person involved in making this show, except for everyone involved in the stupid, ridiculously over the top VIP scene's. A show this gut wrenchingly intense should have better villains than a bunch of mask wearing, mustache twirling caricatures. Maybe they felt that making them seem like real humans would be too gut wrenching? 

[libgirl2]

29 minutes ago, hypnotoad said:

Fair point and I get it but here's the thing - he chose to go back and suffer through it! I get him being appalled by the entire experience but it isn't like he was forced to participate! None of them were. Sure, they had no idea what was going on before red light, green light. But once they came back? They knew exactly what was happening and they knew full well what could happen.

I'm not sure of the others but remember that scene with the claw and the toys? He couldn't stop until he won. He is a gambling addict. Even the danger can't stop that rush. And there are the people who are desperate and have nothing to lose.  

[libgirl2]

26 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Hmm, not sure what it says about me that I binged the whole thing in one day and not once did Netflix check on me. Of course, I do know what it says about me that I saw the partner being put against each other one on one in the marble game coming a mile away. I mean, duh, if I'm an evil nutter who is executing people who fail at children's games for fun I'm totally going to play that mind fuck on them. Maybe that's why Netflix opted to just leave me to my own fate. LOL

This was one of the most intense emotional rollercoasters I've been on in a long time. Kudos to every single person involved in making this show, except for everyone involved in the stupid, ridiculously over the top VIP scene's. A show this gut wrenchingly intense should have better villains than a bunch of mask wearing, mustache twirling caricatures. Maybe they felt that making them seem like real humans would be too gut wrenching? 

I saw the masks as a way of them setting themselves above the "contestants", they hide behind their masks but the contestants are out there "bare" and out in the open. Also, maybe they don't want too many people to recognize them. I didn't have a problem with the VIPs, they disgusted me which is what they were supposed to do. 

A friend of mine compared the show to the movie, They Shoot Horses Don't They? If you aren't familiar with it, basic concept, desperate people willing to sacrifice themselves for money. 

[hypnotoad]

Quote

I'm not sure of the others but remember that scene with the claw and the toys? He couldn't stop until he won. He is a gambling addict. Even the danger can't stop that rush. And there are the people who are desperate and have nothing to lose. 

It was kind of obvious he was going to win but I was happy he did. He basically won fair and square (aside from a bit of shenanigans with old dude during the marble game). I liked seeing him grow during the competition.

But ...

Regardless of gambling issue or being desperate with nothing to lose - he made a choice knowing full well could/what would happen. Now he's going to fight against that game because he's so appalled by it? The game he clearly understood when he went back? I have no idea if all the years before, the players were given a choice but these players were and did. And now he has the money and he can easily go see his daughter and what did he do?

Quote

A show this gut wrenchingly intense should have better villains than a bunch of mask wearing, mustache twirling caricatures.

Well since main guy created the game because he was basically so bored with being all rich and stuff, I suppose the VIPs are supposed to be shallow and awful like that. I was glad the VIPs weren't on much.

[libgirl2]

30 minutes ago, hypnotoad said:

Regardless of gambling issue or being desperate with nothing to lose - he made a choice knowing full well could/what would happen. Now he's going to fight against that game because he's so appalled by it? The game he clearly understood when he went back? I have no idea if all the years before, the players were given a choice but these players were and did. And now he has the money and he can easily go see his daughter and what did he do?

Well since main guy created the game because he was basically so bored with being all rich and stuff, I suppose the VIPs are supposed to be shallow and awful like that. I was glad the VIPs weren't on much.

I think it was easier early on to make the choice, yes you would probably die, but you didn't really care that much about the others, so you figured you would just worry about yourself, you had no connection to them. Every man for himself. As the games went on, you got to know each other, you got to learn people's names..... and then came the marbles where it all came to a head, you betrayed a friend. And he betrayed the one person there that he seemed to care the most about. 

Exactly it on the VIPs, shallow, rich people who are amused by the poor masses who are their play things. 

Edited October 13, 2021 by libgirl2

[kittykat]

I thought Gi-Hun's choice to go back was more an epiphany.  Between his last meeting with Il-Nam and the encounter with the Salesman he realized that he was part of the problem by letting life go on.  This wasn't just one homeless person, he knows that at the moment he was going to see his daughter that 456 unfortunate people were going on a hell journey and 455 of them are going to be killed.  It didn't matter that they're strangers and out of sight but he still knows it's happening.  He may have stood by and waited for humanity to do something with the homeless man but this time HE is going to be the one to act.

[Melina22]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

Exactly it on the VIPs, shallow, rich people who are amused by the poor masses who are their play things. 

I might be in the minority, but I'm not cynical enough to think all mega-rich people are psychopaths who would get great enjoyment out of watching poor people kill each other. However, the ones depicted on the show ARE, so it makes sense they'd be extremely unpleasant to watch and listen to. So not that unrealistic. 

[Scout Finch]

15 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

A friend of mine compared the show to the movie, They Shoot Horses Don't They? If you aren't familiar with it, basic concept, desperate people willing to sacrifice themselves for money. 

It also reminded me of the The Magic Christian from 1969, which I watched a decade or two later and still remember the vat scene due to how gross it is! And also that Badfinger's "Come and Get It" plays over it:

"Billionaire Sir Guy Grand (Peter Sellers) thinks nothing of throwing his endless stream of money away. He adopts a street person (Ringo Starr), christens him Youngman Grand and sets about trying to illustrate to his new heir how virtually everyone in the world can be bought. He pays a traffic cop to eat a ticket, pays the Oxford crew team to sabotage a race and finally fills a vat with feces and money, inviting one and all to keep the latter if they don't mind putting up with the former."

Edited October 14, 2021 by Scout Finch

[libgirl2]

9 hours ago, Melina22 said:

I might be in the minority, but I'm not cynical enough to think all mega-rich people are psychopaths who would get great enjoyment out of watching poor people kill each other. However, the ones depicted on the show ARE, so it makes sense they'd be extremely unpleasant to watch and listen to. So not that unrealistic. 

of course not all rich people are like that, though it isn't the first time we have seen them depicted as. 

3 hours ago, Scout Finch said:

It also reminded me of the The Magic Christian from 1969, which I watched a decade or two later and still remember the vat scene due to how gross it is! And also that the Badfinger's "Come and Get It" plays over it:

"Billionaire Sir Guy Grand (Peter Sellers) thinks nothing of throwing his endless stream of money away. He adopts a street person (Ringo Starr), christens him Youngman Grand and sets about trying to illustrate to his new heir how virtually everyone in the world can be bought. He pays a traffic cop to eat a ticket, pays the Oxford crew team to sabotage a race and finally fills a vat with feces and money, inviting one and all to keep the latter if they don't mind putting up with the former."

Interesting, I have never seen that movie. 

[SourK]

18 hours ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

Sang-woo. Listen, he did Ali dirty. He slit Sae-Byeok's throat. He let his childhood best friend choose the fucking umbrella. So, I get why people would hate him and consider him a villain. I actually don't; I think he just has the singular goal of making things right for his mother and if that means being ruthless, he'll be ruthless. He doesn't get pleasure out of killing, he doesn't seek out weaker people to kill like the gangster group, and his logic regarding Sae-Byeok was pretty on point--she was going to die anyway and as long as she was alive they ran the risk of leaving the game with no money. All he cared about was that money for his mom, his own life was secondary. He proved that with his last act.

Sang-woo's mom needed money because Sang-woo stole everything she owned. Once he'd already lost the game, he asked Gi-hun to help her, but I think his main motivation was to get the cash he needed to buy his way out of trouble and possibly keep his reputation.

What I think is really interesting about Sang-woo is that he's the person who should have won the game. He played it "correctly" based on the cold-blooded worldview Il-nam has, but, just like Gi-hun brought out the human side of Il-nam, he also brought out the human side of Sang-woo, and forced him to confront how horrible the things he was doing really were. That argument they have about the glass maker is really important, because Gi-hun isn't willing to say, "Okay cool -- that was our best move in the game, so I guess it doesn't matter." He's horrified and he's not willing to let it go.

I didn't see this when I actually watched the show, but now I think it's really clever to have these two playing together and have them be childhood friends, from a time before Sang-woo became this person. There's something really powerful about having a character who's portrayed as the Fool look at a philosophy we've been taught to think of as normal and say, "That's such a horrible thing to believe that I won't accept it."

Cabin in the Woods vibes.

18 hours ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

I also can't help but think he is screwing his daughter over YET AGAIN by getting her hopes up and then leaving for something more important that's related to large sums of money and dangerous men.

This, I agree with. From her POV, her deadbeat dad just made her another big promise about how they'd spend time together, and then he immediately bailed.

17 hours ago, CrazyDog said:

I thought it was interesting that they spared him having to kill Sang-woo.

I found that whole sequence kind of messy and convenient. I get that it would kind of ruin the arc if Gi-hun was willing to kill Sang-woo for the money, but it felt like they went, "Okay, we need Gi-hun to win, and we really want him to walk away with the cash, but he can't be murderous, and he can't be selfish, and the only way to get the money is to be murderous and selfish, so..."

[30 Helens]

16 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

There are a lot of loose ends that could use a season 2. I'm still wondering about the organs. 

I didn’t like the organ story OR the rich voyeurs and was glad that neither took up too much time. I get that the theme of the story was class inequalities and rich preying on poor, but both of these subplots took it to anvil levels. Neither were particularly well done, either, perhaps because of the lack of subtlety.

15 hours ago, hypnotoad said:

Fair point and I get it but here's the thing - he chose to go back and suffer through it! I get him being appalled by the entire experience but it isn't like he was forced to participate! None of them were. Sure, they had no idea what was going on before red light, green light. But once they came back? They knew exactly what was happening and they knew full well what could happen.

I think the fact that they came back was meant to emphasize just how desperate their situations were. Things were so bad that even probable violent death was better than living like that. The games, at least, gave them a glimmer of hope. The only ones I didn’t understand were the husband and wife. They knew before returning that only one could survive to the end. Best case scenario was making it to final two, which would also be worst case scenario. Desperate or not, it made no sense. It would be like Gi-hun returning with his daughter.

[libgirl2]

3 minutes ago, 30 Helens said:

I didn’t like the organ story OR the rich voyeurs and was glad that neither took up too much time. I get that the theme of the story was class inequalities and rich preying on poor, but both of these subplots took it to anvil levels. Neither were particularly well done, either, perhaps because of the lack of subtlety.

I think the fact that they came back was meant to emphasize just how desperate their situations were. Things were so bad that even probable violent death was better than living like that. The games, at least, gave them a glimmer of hope. The only ones I didn’t understand were the husband and wife. They knew before returning that only one could survive to the end. Best case scenario was making it to final two, which would also be worst case scenario. Desperate or not, it made no sense. It would be like Gi-hun returning with his daughter.

I'm not so sure I liked the whole organ story either. I guess as you say, it is to emphasize the rich preying on the poor. 

We never really got a back story on the husband and wife, so it is hard to say what their motivation was. 

[Melina22]

24 minutes ago, 30 Helens said:

I think the fact that they came back was meant to emphasize just how desperate their situations were

Yes. Gi-hun had people threatening to remove his organs if he didn't repay money he didn't have. At least by returning he had a slight chance of surviving intact, with money. 

Usually I hate violent shows and never watch them. No horror, no zombies, walking or otherwise. But very occasionally a show will suck me in despite the violence. I watched all of Better Call Saul and Goliath, for example. 

My techniques are simple and would horrify purists. Lots of fast-forwarding, some muting and strategic blanket use. Sometimes I just close my eyes, although that makes it hard to read subtitles. Anyway, I made it through this show seeing a minimum of gore, and got to watch a surprising amount of riveting TV. 

Last note - yesterday I watched a YouTube video of an interview with the actor playing Gi-hun and his smart friend. For me, Gi-hun made the show because despite the stupid and selfish things he does at the beginning, he has an open, kind face, and exudes empathy for others. (When he isn't gambling away their money.) But the actor was strangely unrecognizable. I couldn't tell if his face is now actually different, or if he's such a good actor that he's unrecognizable as himself. Weird. 

The actor playing Ali wasn't present, but the director noted that there are few Korean-speaking foreigners for roles, but that the role of Ali went to someone who for some strange reason had moved from India to Korea to study acting. Wow, did that ever pay off for him!! 

[libgirl2]

2 hours ago, Melina22 said:

Last note - yesterday I watched a YouTube video of an interview with the actor playing Gi-hun and his smart friend. For me, Gi-hun made the show because despite the stupid and selfish things he does at the beginning, he has an open, kind face, and exudes empathy for others. (When he isn't gambling away their money.) But the actor was strangely unrecognizable. I couldn't tell if his face is now actually different, or if he's such a good actor that he's unrecognizable as himself. Weird. 

 

I have seen pictures of him and I think he looks different too. 

I read somewhere that the actor who play Il-nan is known for playing monks! I can see it.

Edited October 14, 2021 by libgirl2

[Melina22]

40 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I have seen pictures of him and I think he looks different too. 

I wonder if he got plastic surgery? What a shame if he did. His face was so likeable and expressive. It was a big part of what made him accessible to me as the protagonist, even though his actions at times weren't great. 

[libgirl2]

2 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

I wonder if he got plastic surgery? What a shame if he did. His face was so likeable and expressive. It was a big part of what made him accessible to me as the protagonist, even though his actions at times weren't great. 

I don't think so. Its more the way he carries himself and something in his eyes. He is a nice looking man. 

[30 Helens]

3 hours ago, Melina22 said:

Usually I hate violent shows and never watch them. No horror, no zombies, walking or otherwise. But very occasionally a show will suck me in despite the violence. I watched all of Better Call Saul and Goliath, for example. 

Better Call Saul?? I mean, I guess lawyers can be scary, but I would never think of that as a violent show. Whatever possessed you to watch this one? I can’t imagine the stack of quilts and blankets you must have been diving under, lol.

52 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

I wonder if he got plastic surgery? What a shame if he did. His face was so likeable and expressive. It was a big part of what made him accessible to me as the protagonist, even though his actions at times weren't great. 

I read that he also works as a model, so he’s probably happy with his face the way it is. I think he just looks different because of the makeup and hair— he’s pretty disheveled in this role. (And, as libgirl2 said, the acting! He did a good job.) Oddly, I never really warmed to him as the protagonist. I guess I wasn’t able to fully overcome my annoyance at his earlier actions. I was pulling for Ali, Sae-byeok and Ji-yeong the most. (That marbles episode was a heartbreaker for me.) I never liked the old man very much, either, even when he was at his most miserable. Don’t know if that makes me unfeeling or prescient.

Edited October 14, 2021 by 30 Helens

[Thalia]

On 10/10/2021 at 4:13 AM, Dancingjaneway said:

this show was brilliant...up until the end.

Add me to the list of those who were underwhelmed by the ending.  Kind of interesting, but hardly jaw dropping.  I also wanted to know more about the cop's brother.  I can see a sequel focusing on him and Gi-hun, and their different reactions to winning the game.  

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Thalia

[CrazyDog]

4 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

The only ones I didn’t understand were the husband and wife. They knew before returning that only one could survive to the end. Best case scenario was making it to final two, which would also be worst case scenario. Desperate or not, it made no sense. It would be like Gi-hun returning with his daughter.

There could technically be more than one winner though, right? At least it was ambiguous. It was just mentioned that as players were eliminated that their money would be added to the pot. But Gi-hun thought that he could split the money with Sae-byeok, as long as they both agreed to end the games. Or would ending the games result in them being able to leave alive, but without anything? I don't recall, and I don't want to rewatch, ha.

[libgirl2]

22 minutes ago, 30 Helens said:

I never liked the old man very much, either, even when he was at his most miserable. Don’t know if that makes me unfeeling or prescient.

The old man made me very sad as my father passed away from brain cancer. Something in the way he stood, the way he walked kind of crouched over, the confusion and his face, reminded me so much of my dad (who isn't Asian at all). It was hard for me to watch him in the marble game as I felt so bad. And then at the end.... I didn't! 

[thejuicer]

I think they explained in Episode 1 that if players decide to end the game, the prize money would be split amongst the deceased players' families.