S02.E08: Slouching Towards Bethlehem

[maraleia]

In order to prevent a terrorist attack in New York that could result in catastrophe, Nolan must interrogate a suspected spy.

[MDKNIGHT]

I'm removing my comment because the change of order of the episodes may mean it is in the wrong place.

Edited August 5, 2014 by MDKNIGHT

[Chaos Theory]

Hey Irisa has her own cult.

I love me some Amanda heavy episodes....and she sure was rocking the side braid of justice and that black Jacket of justice. Its the full Outfit of Justice ensemble. Oh and side note....yes she does look good in an E-Rep uniform.

Kenya's alive! The Rosewood sisters are back together.

So are the Tarrs more dangerous when they are trying to kill each other or when they are getting along?

<~~~~edited for content

Edited August 8, 2014 by Chaos Theory

[HeySandyStrange]

I'm not sure what to think about Kenya being back...something seems off about the whole thing. The kidnappers were pretty quick to run off and leave her behind unchained. I like Amanda but I also felt she was off. I thought she would be more pragmatic and cool headed about something that involved thousands of lives, even if her sister's life was at risk on the other end.

 

I liked seeing The Tarr's Sensoth speaking his mind or actually speaking at all.  He had a valid point and I hope Stahma keeps it in mind.

 

The. Cult of Irisa is a nice turn of events

[Quilt Fairy]

and she sure was rocking the side braid of justice and her that black Jacket of justice.  Its the full Outfit of Justice ensemble.

Not to mention the dominatrix boots with the 5 inch heels.

[SimoneS]

I fear Amanda is in for heartbreak. I think that NuKenya is a clone or some kind of nanotechnology. Stahma murdered the real Kenya.

 

Nolan pivoted from loving protective father to torturer in a heartbeat. This episode is a reminder that he is much more than a happy go lucky lawkeeper.

 

I don't know what to think about Irisa and her followers. 

[Chaos Theory]

I don't know what to think about Irisa and her followers.

ArkRise. My guess is to restart the Pale Wars. Nolan talked about it alot with the guy he tortured. Something about the soldiers putting an end to the wars. My thinking is there is a whole group who want to start them up again and wipe out hunanity once and for all.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Chaos Theory

[ottoDbusdriver]

Who would have thought that an AMC Pacer would have survived the Pale Wars and still be in use ?  </snark>

 

ArkRise. My guess is to restart the Pale Wars.

 

Or maybe so the Votans can leave for better pastures on another planet.  The only Votan ship that needs to rise is the Kaziri -- once it's in orbit with it's fully functioning tech maybe the Votans can use it as a base to start rebuilding the fleet from the parts still in orbit so they can get the hell away from Earth.

Edited August 8, 2014 by ottoDbusdriver

[BungalowSummer]

I'm not sure what to think about Kenya being back...something seems off about the whole thing.

Yes. Kenya still has a way of stopping the narrative momentum. She's always a distraction, and I wonder if her reappearance is another distraction.

The exchange between Stahma and the Sensoth Raiga was wonderful. I wonder if Stahma didn't just make a very bad mistake by threatening him rather than reassuring him.

The idea of sweet little Bertie as a warrior in Irisa's Army just makes me laugh.

I appreciated that Nolan finally put into plain words what was happening to Irisa. As I thought, the Kaziri's Arkbrain manifests to each recruit as someone who can influence their actions, a personal god or relative.

I also liked the description of New York and the Manhattan Valley. It was a good reminder that this planet was fairly well f***ed up during the Pale Wars. Arkrise does not sound like a good thing for us humans, that's for sure.

I've loved this show and this season, but this episode was probably the weakest of the season. Kenya's failure to kill her captor was ridiculous. Amanda's ability to fool and subdue Nolan, recruit Treasure Doll instantly, obtain an E-Rep uniform, walk around the garrison freely and finally escape with the insanely high-value prisoner was ludicrous.

I will be interested to find out why they wanted the Irathient and who those two conspirators were.

[fauntleroy]

I was disappointed that they resorted to the cliché (giving "trope" a rest) of getting leverage on a character by threatening a family member. Amanda doesn't care that thousands of lives are at stake, because family! Bleah. Where does it end? Two weeks ago on Longmire, Barlow got his son out of jail by threatening the deputy with having his father lose business contracts! Naturally the deputy caved, because family! God. Just once I'd like to see a threat fail--I'm sorry about my sister/dad/etc, but there are bigger things at stake than just my family, so I must reject your threat. And as important, report it.  I'd like to see that done just once, for a change.

 

For now though, virtually any character on TV is reliably vulnerable in this way. It's tiresome.

 

Other than that, good episode. I'm glad the Sensoth spoke up to Stahma. His point was a good one. Amanda is gorgeous but a fool. I don't trust that that's really Kenya. The Irisa stuff is moving along nicely. Speaking of Irisa, Stephanie Leonidas was on the new Poirot last Sunday. Interesting to see her as a '30s society girl in England. Quite pretty, and big brown eyes.

[ramble]

The relationship between Nolan & Irisa is still what keeps me locked into this show. Stahma's continued artful deception is the other thing.

On the other hand, I'm beginning to actively loathe Amanda. As in, she sucks the joy of the scenes for me when she shows up. I can't quite put my finger on it but it's making me dream of hell bugs in her future.

Not enough Doc Yewll in this for me. I like at least a couple of good lines per episode. Also I've decided I like Datak interacting with Rafe far more than I like his interaction with Stahma, so I missed Rafe this episode.

Edited August 8, 2014 by ramble

[CletusMusashi]

Raiga/Stahma and Nolan/Irissa were the only scenes I liked this week.

Berlin looks good in a skirt, and I understand the reason for the sudden wardrobe change (screwing with Tommy,) but... really? You're a professional soldier who tends to get beaten up every week when you're wearing pants. Is now really the time for a makeover?

Do Sensoths... have lives? I mean like are there Sensoth neighborhoods with Sensoth religions and tradtions and families and whatnot? Or do do they all just get cloned somewhere, grow up at Alien Henchman Prep School, and then work for bad guys the rest of their lives?

I always liked Kenya, but just couldn't get excited about her this week. Maybe next week will have a script better suited to the actress.

With all the cloak and dagger stuff going on with the Collective, I wonder if we might see Christy or even Mercado go undercover as Votans. How well it would work depends on whether or not the writer of the week remembers that Castithans apparently now have super-bloodhound smelling.

Oh, and I liked the pre-interrgoation with Nolan and what's-his-name. I could have done without the torture that followed, but even that fit the plot well enough and at least it was something besides those boring Little Irzu visions, so I'll take it.

[MDKNIGHT]

I hope the continuity will make sense.  IF Kenya is NOT Kenya then why would she really be chained and try to escape when she was NOT on the phone with Amanda.  The whole thing could have been play acted if she's a fake.  OTOH why would the real Kenya not kill the dude when he was down ?  and why would they leave her unchained to be picked up by Ammanda? 

 

I know Stahma is evil but I had hoped she would at least be loyal to her thugs since they put her in power.  the big dude was right that if she reconciles with Datak for selfish reasons the thugs are dead and therefore they have no reason to be loyal to her.  I get she likes Datak's animal sex thing (or she just used it to get him to do what she wanted or a bit of both) but she has to use her brain and not her naughty bits to plan things.  Otherwise she becomes Datak-i.e. don't think just react emotionally.

 

Is it me or are the Rosewater sisters particularly good hand to hand fighters for people who weigh like 70 pounds?

I'mm looking forward to Stahmah's facial reaction when she finds out Kenya is in town.  I posited before that it would be funny if Castis get DARKER when they are frightened...Hey Stahma you look positively tanned.  You look like you've just seen a ghost!

[BungalowSummer]

Do Sensoths... have lives? I mean like are there Sensoth neighborhoods with Sensoth religions and tradtions and families and whatnot?

I think the moment I started to love this show was in the pilot, when a Sensoth was out for an evening walk with his little dog on a leash, a Yorkie, I think. The scene was just so funny, and it sums up the quirky cross-cultural sensibilities of this show. They've also shown a Sensoth matron pushing an old-fashioned baby carriage in the market. Very domestic.

Edited August 8, 2014 by BungalowSummer

[GaT]

HA! I totally called it, I knew Kenya wasn't dead, but why is she wearing a bad wig? I think she's the real Kenya, but I think something has been implanted in her that's going to make her do something. Maybe she's a spy now & she doesn't know it, because there's no other reason for them to let her live than that they wanted her to go back to Defiance. 

[sjohnson]

Ticking time bomb scenarios are not just moronic but too closely associated with justifications for real life torture for me to like them. I instantly wondered why it would be necessary to send a schematic of the bomb to New York, as well as an actual bomb. In any event, the torture was just for the delectation of the audience, since the victim naturally confessed all. I think it would be funny if the next episode opened with the announcement that the bomb exploded and killed everybody, since the guy was lying distract the Ereps from the real location. 

[HeySandyStrange]

 

I know Stahma is evil but I had hoped she would at least be loyal to her thugs since they put her in power.  the big dude was right that if she reconciles with Datak for selfish reasons the thugs are dead and therefore they have no reason to be loyal to her.

 

I think Stahma, finally out of her cage and able to bask in her own brilliant evilness, is starting to get cocky.  I see that going south for her soon, especially if she forgets about the people who put her there. On the other hand, Datak has used his downfall and lack of power to wise up a little,imo, which could be a game changer in their dynamic. 

[Izeinwinter]

Okay, so the E-rep learn about the bomb plot, and promptly haul in the nightporter/spy. That pretty much has to mean they have known about him for a while, and left him in place as basic spycraft to learn his contacts, plots, ect.. So Rafe and Datak are utterly fucked. It's unclear how long his cover had been compromised, but if it is more than.. 3 days or so, the E-rep knows all about their little scheme. I have a feeling those weapon shipments may have acquired.. After-market modifications.. or something. 

[fauntleroy]

So Rafe and Dathak are utterly fucked. It's unclear how long his cover had been compromised, but if it is more than.. 3 days or so, the E-rep knows all about their little scheme.

 

I don't really follow. They may have known about his sympathies generally, doesn't mean they know specifics about anything. He wasn't in custody long, and revealed nothing except about the bomb before he was shot.

[Ottis]

I'm not sure what to think about Kenya being back...something seems off about the whole thing.

 

 

Except for Amanda's reaction, the whole "Kenya's alive!" plot seemed to be handled with indifference by everyone, including Kenya. The masked guy who had her sounded far too educated to be a true lowlife bad guy, so he clearly is someone pretending to be what he is not for cover. And even he didn't care much that she was wandering around (and Kenya, instead of running like hell, didn't care enough to leave when she broke free). Why should I care about any of it?

 

Nice close up of the six-inch heels on Amanda as she strode down the hallways. I don't usually notice things like that, but it was hard to miss.

[Chaos Theory]

Except for Amanda's reaction, the whole "Kenya's alive!" plot seemed to be handled with indifference by everyone, including Kenya.

Well for the most part, they had other stuff on their minds like a bombing in New York which does take precedence. As for Kenya I am not sure she is back. There was that dude in season one who was a clone or something. I think that is what "Kenya" is. Even if it is Kenya, she is in shock. I buy shock.

Anyway.....reaction time will be next episode. Reaction to Kenya being dead for a year deserves a full episode. Plus there are at least half a dozen people who have legit reason to either be happy or sad she is back...

Edited August 8, 2014 by Chaos Theory

[Latverian Diplomat]

Anyway.....reaction time will be next episode. Reaction to Kenya being dead for a year deserves a full episode. Plus there are at least half a dozen people who have legit reason to either be happy or sad she is back...

True, the Kenya situation needs to play out, but I'm not really looking forward to the Mia-Kirshner-brand scenery chewing the previews imply.

[thewhiteowl]

My reaction quickly changed from Yay! Kenya's not dead! To Crap! More Kenya nonsense. I hope to be wrong about the nonsense part.

[AV8n]

Run, Kenya, Run!  No, don't just stand there.  What if he's not... aw, cripes!

 

My initial thought was that Kenya's captor was Datak.  His stance and manner of speaking made me think that.  However, now I think it's probably a human.  The guys that attacked Pottinger's convoy were fond of masks, too.  The question is, why?  Are the captors VC, or do they have some other agenda?

 

I had forgotten that Sensoths could speak.  They always seemed more like Ape-Wookie servants.  He definitely had a good point about what would happen if Datak came back, but I wouldn't put it past Stahma to go scorched earth and risk it if she wanted him back..

[Ottis]

I find Stahma's slipping in and out of "subservient Casti woman mode" interesting. She is in it less and less, even in front of people who are not Casti. I don't know if that is intentional or inconsistency. She was practically lippy when talking to the ERep.

[Chaos Theory]

I find Stahma's slipping in and out of "subservient Casti woman mode" interesting. She is in it less and less, even in front of people who are not Casti. I don't know if that is intentional or inconsistency. She was practically lippy when talking to the ERep.

It is most definitely intentional. Right now she is at the hight of her power..,.of course she would be lippy.

Oh and the dude who kidnapped Kenya i am putting in my bet for Pottinger. There would be no need to disguise his voice unless we knew who he was he doe line to wear shiny armor.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Chaos Theory

[fauntleroy]

Run, Kenya, Run!  No, don't just stand there.  What if he's not... aw, cripes!

 

Right. Run Kenya run is what we might call "correct Kenya". Attacking the guy was absurd because he was a) huge and b) wearing exactly the kind of headgear that would make strangling him with the chain impossible.

 

Tiny person defeats much larger person another TV cliche.

 

But okay, grant for the sake of plot necessity that she somehow manages to knock out this gigantic body-armor wearing guy. What next? How about remove his headgear to see who the heck he is. Then verify that he is disabled, chain him up securely if you don't want to kill him. Then run like a bastard for an hour. Then make a call.

[MandolinMagi]

I was disappointed that they resorted to the cliché (giving "trope" a rest) of getting leverage on a character by threatening a family member. Amanda doesn't care that thousands of lives are at stake, because family! Bleah. Where does it end? Two weeks ago on Longmire, Barlow got his son out of jail by threatening the deputy with having his father lose business contracts! Naturally the deputy caved, because family! God. Just once I'd like to see a threat fail--I'm sorry about my sister/dad/etc, but there are bigger things at stake than just my family, so I must reject your threat. And as important, report it.  I'd like to see that done just once, for a change.

 

For now though, virtually any character on TV is reliably vulnerable in this way. It's tiresome.

There was a early episode of NCIS were Gibbs, when his family was threatened by a mobsters, claimed his father was dead (a lie), and promised to send all relevant info as the the whereabouts of his three ex-wives. 

 

Except for Amanda's reaction, the whole "Kenya's alive!" plot seemed to be handled with indifference by everyone, including Kenya. 

By "everyone, you mean Amanda and Nolan, right? No one else knows yet.

 

And yes, something is very off about Kenya

Edited August 8, 2014 by MandolinMagi

[sjohnson]

I'm really hard pressed to find anything good to highlight about the episode, which I like to do. And what you might call the Defiance theme has been more or less dropped. (Oddly Nolan mentions it even as he contradicts himself by torturing the spy, not to mention keeping the Kaziri secret.) 

 

So this might be a good time to mention again how good the underscore and source music are. The writing may not always be up to snuff but Bear McCreary is. In music Defiance is up there with the premium cable and broadcast networks and movies.

[Izeinwinter]

I don't really follow. They may have known about his sympathies generally, doesn't mean they know specifics about anything. He wasn't in custody long, and revealed nothing except about the bomb before he was shot.

 

The conversation with Stahma indicated they had been keeping an eye on the night porter for a while. They hauled him in because learning where the bomb was took priority over anything they could learn from passive surveillance. He didn't tell the E-rep anything about Dathak and Rafe, but he didn't need to, if the E-rep has been watching him, they already know, and are presumably just giving them enough rope to hang themselves with. This is standard spycraft - heck, the E-rep seems really fond of video, so there is a good chance Dathak is on tape.

 

So.. Kenya: Wth ? Why on earth would the votan collective have her on hand to black mail Amanda with at all? If Stahma shipped her to Brazil, there is no way to get her to defiance fast enough, so... Is Stahma secretly their chief intelligence officer for north america? (That would be funny as all hell) I suppose that whole getup the ransoming thug was wearing could hide one of her handmaidens as well as anyone else..

The only other option that makes sense is if they happened to have her there to use as leverage on Stahma, and changed plans or something. 

 

The Kaziri: We already knew it doing mass conversions, so what did we learn? Well, it is talking to all it's converts, not just little miss prophet.And it has a plan, it calls ark rise. Uhm. I have a feeling it means something entirely different to the shipmind than it does to the VC.  

[jhlipton]

But okay, grant for the sake of plot necessity that she somehow manages to knock out this gigantic body-armor wearing guy. What next? How about remove his headgear to see who the heck he is. Then verify that he is disabled, chain him up securely if you don't want to kill him. Then run like a bastard for an hour. Then make a call.

She had a long chain with a decent weight on it. Get a good swing and WHOMP. Body armor does nothing against inertia, pressure and the like. A solid blow to the head or neck and he would have been out. I was hoping she'd form the tray into a weapon and stab him in the spots armor doesn't cover.

So yay for taking some initiative -- boo for not using it as wisely as she could.

==========================================

I did like this episode standing the usual TV blather about torture on its head. Nolan got a lot more info from straight-talk -- one professional to another, and relating to the guy's moral quandary re his kids than he did with the "drill worms". This is the way it works in real life, according to the experts.

I'm not sure why a mid-level courier would have detailed info on where the bomb was placed other than PLOT!

[MDKNIGHT]

 

I'm not sure why a mid-level courier would have detailed info on where the bomb was placed other than PLOT!

 

I agree.  I thought for a while that he didn't KNOW the answer to thier questions but knew they wouldn't believe him so he'd rather go out a bad ass than a useless cog who didn't have the info in the first place.

 

Reg the trop of giving up something important because the bad guys have your family, on a human level I understand it but (a) most of the people who are put in that position in fiction are military or spies  or cops or some other TRAINED group, not average Joes so I find it hard to believe they'd cave so easily and (b) I would like to think that I would weigh in that just because you give in to terrorists it does not mean they'll honor thier bargain so you are probably screwing your country/organization/group/whatever and not even getting the pay off.  In fact I'd think terrorists would generally kill the loved one any way to tie up loose ends.  I would think trained people would think the hostage is probably dead either way so don't betray your side.  I'd be interested to know how this shakes out in reality but of course most of when this happens would never be known by the public and the FBI wouldn't know about kidnappings they aren't called in on so I guess they wouldn't know the outcome of those.

[sjohnson]

The criminals or spies taking or threatening the family of the cops is even more common than the ticking bomb but probably nearly as absurd. 

As a rule, real criminals or spies do not even directly attack the police or counter-intelligence because there are just too many ways for them to hit back. 

As near as I can tell, only if there is widespread corruption in a police force can assassinations of any problem honest cops (or judges in a European style system,) that can't just be ordered off by friends in the system, be hoped to "work" in derailing investigations. It seems to me that only real impetus behind this is the notion that making it personal for the cop or whatever is the only way for the stakes to matter. It seems to be the same as the emphasis on family, family, family. It's like Hollywood is leery of even pretending that people care about anything more abstract, or act from anything but self-interest. I don't know whether it's because the first audience for movies is the producers and Hollywood attracts a lot of amoral people, or what.

[jhlipton]

It's like Hollywood is leery of even pretending that people care about anything more abstract, or act from anything but self-interest.

"This time it's PERSONAL!"

 

I can't tell you how much I hate that cliche'.  "Normally, I'd do a half-assed job, but since it's my wife/sister/mother/unicorn, by damn, I'm going all-out!"  Far from getting me to sympathize with the hero, it makes me want to punch him in the face.

Edited August 8, 2014 by jhlipton

[Izeinwinter]

.. Protocol for any kind of emergency responder is to not do work related to your family. Informal reality is that cases involving kin of police get taken very seriously, so the realistic take would be "are you stupid? I called it in" -> Cut to exterior shot of absolutely insane overkill number of cops showing up. 

[Sakura12]

God. Just once I'd like to see a threat fail--I'm sorry about my sister/dad/etc, but there are bigger things at stake than just my family, so I must reject your threat. And as important, report it.  I'd like to see that done just once, for a change.

 

They sort of did that on Arrow on the CW, the father of the girl that was kidnapped by the big bad told her ex-boyfriend and sister that she was taken and they were both like the city's being destroyed right now and thousands of people are dying that is what comes first. Then later on when the bad buy called the hero to threaten to kill her, he said "Do what you need to do". I was shocked when they did that because it is something you rarely see done.

 

I wasn't the biggest fan of Kenya and if she is real how did she survive being poisoned and left in the woods? She was also really stupid with calling Amanda after running about 2 feet away from the place they were holding her. They obviously brought her back for a reason, so it's probably the cliche clone and/or sleeper agent. 

 

Irisa's storyline is still the most interesting one. She's got a cult of immortal Votans and that does not look good for the humans. 

Edited August 9, 2014 by Sakura12

[wanderingstar]

First time I've been remotely interested in Irisa's story. Sounds like this entity - or whatever it is - is taking different forms with different people.

 

Ah, I'm in the minority, but I didn't miss Kenya. I would have been fine if she didn't return.

[thuganomics85]

Finally caught this episode.  Not surprised that Kenya is still alive, but we'll see if this is worth it or not.  I'm guessing the question is if she truly is the Kenya from the past, or if there is some magical fuckery, going on around here.  I'm guessing we'll find out next week if Stahma truly killed her, or this was all a cover-up on her part.  Either way, her stuff was mainly by the numbers.  Hostage situation scenarios are overplayed, at this point.  And, while I get the appeal of pitting Nolan and Amanda against each other, it just made me dislike Amanda.  Of course, she would possibly endanger thousands of people for Kenya.  For all she knew, would the captor even keep his word to her?  Meh, not a fan of that.

 

Yeah, I"m worried that Stahma is starting to get full of herself, to the point that it will bite her in the ass.  The way she treated her worker about relapsing with Datak, makes me believe that her days of casually threatening her employees, are about to come to an end.  I doubt they will back Datak, but I'm sure they wouldn't mind ridding themselves of both Tarrs.  Between this and Kenya's return, Stahma better watch it.

 

Irisa's story is finally getting interesting.  I did enjoy the stuff between her and Nolan, and his reaction to realizing everything that was going on.

 

Bummed that Doc Yewll got easily tricked by Amanda.  Step it up, Yewll!

 

Man, Berlin just doesn't care anymore.  Tommy asks if she's dating Nolan, and she just flat-out goes "No, but we're totally banging!" Hah!  Hey, if you ask the question, be prepared for the truth, Tommy.

 

Overall, kind of a weak episode.  Not all that wild about Kenya, unless it goes somewhere.  I rather get more Tarr drama (where was Alak and Christie?  Or Rafe?), and more movement on the Irisa plot.

[Chaos Theory]

It's like Hollywood is leery of even pretending that people care about anything more abstract, or act from anything but self-interest.

 

"This time it's PERSONAL!"     I can't tell you how much I hate that cliche'

 

"Go ahead kill my sister,  I'll hold."

 

Don't get me wrong, I get both your points.  It is a cliche and when done incorrectly it grates.  (IE lets everyone go save the person in danger and damn the consequences or the fact that more people will die if we do.)  In this case it was just Amanda who has every reason to want to save Kenya.  And who honestly wouldn't at least pause and consider it in her place and damn the consequence and the rest of the word?  What made it less cliche was the fact that Nolan would have no part of it and told her that she had to take a step back and let him do his job.  He didn't help her.   Worse written shows he would have.   

 

I am pretty sure Nolan acted like a real lawman for a change.

 

I like Kenya and I am pretty sure her reappearance will add drama to at least three ongoing story lines.  I always did like the women of Defiance and they are the main reasons I watch this show so having another of my favorites back is aces with me.  

Edited August 9, 2014 by Chaos Theory

[MDKNIGHT]

Over on "Last Ship" the XO is contemplating trading the scientist with a potential cure for the plague that killed 80% of the population of earth to get his Captain back.  Now I'm sure it will all work out OK because it is that kind of show BUT come on there is no way a military person would sacrifice their mission of SAVING the human SPECIES over his Captain whose last order was Don't try to rescue me!   I mean it is nuts. No way would an xo even consider it.  I'm pretty sure the Israelis broadcast that they won't negotiate with terrorists because they figure if you pay off once people keep doing it more.  Now with kidnappings there is at least the fact that it is "only" money but on tv the bad guys want you to kill someone or let them blow up NY etc. 

[tricksterson]

Am thinking that kenya has been given the Manchurian Candidate treatment.

[shapeshifter]

Quick question: What was Datak's motivation to kill the spy/night porter?

No surprise that Irisa quickly forgets about Kenya and the silly humans in New York.

I was disappointed that they resorted to the cliché (giving "trope" a rest) of getting leverage on a character by threatening a family member....

God. Just once I'd like to see a threat fail--I'm sorry about my sister/dad/etc, but there are bigger things at stake than just my family, so I must reject your threat....

Every time I see it, I wish, for just once, the threatened character would say something like, "Go ahead and kill him/her. You don't know how many times I wanted to do it myself. Mom always loved him/her best," and mean it. Same for a parent or child. I mean, aren't most murders committed by family members?

Writers, you are so missing an opportunity here for interesting plot development. Big plan to manipulate character by kidnapping family member fails because family members can't stand each other's guts. Even better: Family member plans the whole kidnapping thing to get the family member murdered. Actually, that one might have been done. But y'all know what I mean.

Oh and the dude who kidnapped Kenya i am putting in my bet for Pottinger. There would be no need to disguise his voice unless we knew who he was he doe line to wear shiny armor.

Interesting theory. Would that mean he's not human? Or is he doing it for "family"?

The writing may not always be up to snuff but Bear McCreary is. In music Defiance is up there with the premium cable and broadcast networks and movies.

So say we all. Er, at least you and me.

And yes, something is very off about Kenya

The wig. Edited August 9, 2014 by shapeshifter

[Izeinwinter]

Quick question: What was Datak's motivation to kill the spy/night porter?

 

He is plotting an armed uprising against the earth republic. The E-rep was going to forcibly upload the spy's entire memory to get at the location of the new york bomb, but his entire memory would include Datak's plot, at which point Datak gets put in front of a firing squad. Or, if they are feeling really ironic, on a shaming rack. 

I figure killing the spy didn't actually do him any good, because the E-rep had been watching the porter for a while, so most likely, his entire little scheme is going to come to a really embarrassing end. Also, suspect that Stahma knows this, and just had him do the deed to cover up her own involvement with the guy, which was executed with sufficient discretion that the E-Rep can't nail her without the memories. She's not reconciling - she's giving the walking dead man one last shag. 

Edited August 9, 2014 by Izeinwinter

[Black Knight]

Every time I see it, I wish, for just once, the threatened character would say something like, "Go ahead and kill him/her. You don't know how many times I wanted to do it myself. Mom always loved him/her best," and mean it. Same for a parent or child. I mean, aren't most murders committed by family members?

 

Game of Thrones, Walder Frey. When threatened with the murder of his wife, he responded, "I'll find another."

 

I think Stahma really screwed up when she not only didn't reassure her henchman, she threatened him. She's getting a little too power-drunk, and it's making her not as careful as she has been up to now.

 

Kenya definitely feels off to me. Something about her behavior here, although I suppose that could be written off as shock, but also the Stahma factor: If this really is Kenya, Stahma did her no favors by sparing her life. If Stahma cared enough about Kenya to refuse to kill her, you'd think she'd also take some minimal measures to give the spared Kenya a slightly better life than being held hostage, mistreated and beaten up by thugs. If she didn't care enough to ensure Kenya would be okay, she wouldn't care enough to spare her life in the first place. I think the real Kenya is dead.

[sjohnson]

For me the real problem with Kenya isn't how she's acting since I never thought she was a believable character. It's that resurrection is no big deal. She's not a Votan? That's why that ship resurrected her at the same time as Nolan...it couldn't tell them apart!

[Suit and Tie]

I am wondering if all the people that Irisa made immortal will become the crew of the AI ship and jet off to find a new planet to settle.

[susan vance]

I believe that the Amanda of the first season would have been able to resist the threat to Kenya's life, and work to find a way around it, but I also bought that the Amanda of this season - who's lost her sister, her role as mayor, and her home to the Earth Republic - would not be able to find the strength to turn away from the chance to save her. I have been really impressed by how the show has grown this season, demonstrating a complexity and darkness I hadn't really expected from it. One moment I kept thinking of in this episode was when Amanda hallucinated Nolan and all of the awful things he said to her, revealing how she thinks of herself in her darkest moments. Amanda may put up a strong front, and she might have kicked her drug habit, but I believe she's barely hanging on right now. which made her vulnerable to the threat. I thought Julie Benz did a good job showing that Amanda realized the cost of what she was doing every step of the way.

 

One thing I thought was interesting was Nolan being the voice of reason (and believably so) when he owes his life to a similar bargain that Irisa made, the cost of which hasn't been made completely clear. I liked how they didn't make it explicit but I thought it gave a nice layer to his side of things. 

 

The Tommy/Irisa/Nolan/Berlin quad of madness is still interesting to me, though I wish there were more scenes between Tommy and Irisa to show how his knowledge of what she's going through has been playing out. I also think the Tommy/Nolan friction makes sense to me, and is another element that has been nicely underplayed since I believe neither of them would ever be willing to really verbalize the feelings underneath their actions. Tommy was an orphan who had begun to see himself has having a place in the Nolan/Irisa family unit, only to have both of them disappear without a trace at the end of the first season and arrive back without an apology at the start of the second - I can see where his anger comes from. Nolan's side is a little less clear to me, but I think a lot of it is guilt over leaving Tommy behind, a guilt he would never admit to because I think Nolan has made a place in his heart for one person - Irisa - and while he clearly cares for other people, I think he's unwilling to take them on in a more meaningful way. In the first season finale, he was willing to let the Earth Republic kill Tommy rather than reveal Irisa to them, and Irisa was the one who turned herself in to save him. I think the show does a good job with things like Irisa's love for Tommy, which she's never admitted out loud, but I see it driving her actions - trading her life for his, picking him as the person to confess her troubles, watching him from rooftops. I want those two crazy kids to work it out! 

Edited August 11, 2014 by susan vance

[MDKNIGHT]

 

believe that the Amanda of the first season would have been able to resist the threat to Kenya's life, and work to find a way around it, but I also bought that the Amanda of this season - who's lost her sister, her role as mayor, and her home to the Earth Republic - would not be able to find the strength to turn away from the chance to save her.

I hadn't thought of it that way.  Good point.  At least in this case the extortionist picked a particularly vulnerable person so it makes more sense.

 

I do think that Irisa has feelings for Tommy but I feel bad for Berlin. 

 

Speaking of Berlin.  Did anybody else get the impression that although Stahma was trying to cause friction between Tommy and Berlin by disclosing she could smell Nolan on her (how the heck did Stahma know Tommy and Berlin were a thing so that it would matter?)  that she also was flirting with Berlin a little during her interogation? 

[BungalowSummer]

 

Did anybody else get the impression that although Stahma was trying to cause friction between Tommy and Berlin by disclosing she could smell Nolan on her (how the heck did Stahma know Tommy and Berlin were a thing so that it would matter?)  that she also was flirting with Berlin a little during her interogation?

 

I got the impression that she was flirting with Tommy, talking up his "promotion" and so forth, then downplaying Berlin's rank by calling her "Miss Rainier" -- in other words, sticking her in the lowest possible rank in Casti eyes, the unmarried woman. Also an unmarried woman who has the stench of sex with Nolan on her. That part I assumed was Stahma's attempt to put both Tommy and Berlin off balance. It worked, too.

 

As for Stahma knowing, I think there's very little that gets past Stahma in that town. I had been wondering why Stahma wasn't stepping in to stop Christie's antics at the Janus Club. Last week, though, when Datak was issuing orders to find Jalina's killer, he asked where Alak was. Stahma's expression, very slightly rolling her eyes and looking away, indicated to me that she knew exactly where Alak was and what was happening between him and Christie.

Edited August 11, 2014 by BungalowSummer

[margol29]

I am in the camp of please don't bring Kenya back. I was so happy when she was killed off last season. And no more bringing people back from the dead. Dead is dead!!!

 

I really like the Tar drama. I like Datak doing his laundry in the sink.