S03.E03: Hank & Dove

[paulvdb]

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After unearthing an empty grave, the Titans confirm that an old friend is alive - and behind the city's latest emerging threat. Then, when a Titan falls for Red Hood's trap, the team races against the clock to save one of their own.

Premiere date: August 12, 2021

[Jenniferbug]

Hm. Well. Can't say I didn't see that coming. They spent the episode telegraphing his death, though I did wonder at the end if they would suddenly pivot and surprise kill Dove instead. Krypto coming out of the explosion was so sad. 

Really not understanding what Jason is wanting or what his end game is here. Hopefully it all makes sense when it's revealed. I assume he's working with Scarecrow because Jason has never seemed to be a mastermind to pull this off with all the tech involved. 

Pacing has definitely improved this season and it seems higher budget. 

So is this season going to have 2 different arcs? Red Hood and then Blackfire? Did they get more episodes than the previous seasons?

[Sakura12]

I figured Hank was going to die since Alan Richardson got cast as the lead in another show. Having Dawn be the one that kills him was surprising. They really want to bring all the Titans down don't they. 

This also seems like too much planning for Jason. Jason never planned anything, he just reacted  Did the resurrection make him smarter? Or is someone else pulling his strings. 

I did like seeing Connor doing tech stuff, they rarely ever show the Lex part of Superboy. He's supposed to have Lex's intellect and they always just use his Superman powers. 

[cdnalor]

At this point, I'm going to say the pseudo Bane juice Jason was cooking up in his secret lab is responsible for his resurrection and transformation into the Red Hood.  It sure didn't help him when he went up against the Joker, though.

[KittenPokerCheater]

Of COURSE they kill him now that he's getting along with Dick.  

I wish they had killed off Dawn, but I suppose it makes sense that she would be the one to kill him.

Are we talking some kind of split personality thing with Jason?  After Hawk, I don't see how Jason can come back from this.

Wow, I'm loving the show this season.

[Sakura12]

I think that was the fear toxin that Jason was inhaling. Which makes me think Scarecrow is behind this. Because this is way to smart and planned to be Jason. I'm not saying Jason's dumb, but he's nowhere near criminal mastermind. 

Crane's whole thing is using people's fears against them. Maybe he's testing to see how far people would go if they were afraid for a loved ones life. If it is him, he got Batman to kill the Joker, a mother to kill 4 innocent people and Dawn killing Hank by choosing to kill Jason. And he didn't even need to dose them with his toxin. 

They can't use the Joker or Lex, so Scarecrow is the villian mastermind they can use. 

[UnoAgain]

I wanted to watch all 3 episodes to be sure.. But I'm not a fan of Barbara Gordon.. Not that everyone needs to be likeable.. Or that she didn't have some beefs.. But she unloads on Bruce even tho she knows he's only pretending to not feel it.. Then gets upset after he kills joker... Gets upset at the team when there was no real reason to.. It's not like the cops wouldnt have also assumed they were the parents

[BK1978]

Sorry if I am asking this in the wrong episode thread, but I watched all of the episodes at once and with the exception of the really big things, I honestly don't recall what happened in what episode.  Onto my question, who was the kid whose family owned the restaurant?  He obviously is going to be someone but I don't even recall them saying his name. 

[AnimeMania]

4 minutes ago, BK1978 said:

Sorry if I am asking this in the wrong episode thread, but I watched all of the episodes at once and with the exception of the really big things, I honestly don't recall what happened in what episode.  Onto my question, who was the kid whose family owned the restaurant?  He obviously is going to be someone but I don't even recall them saying his name. 

That is Jay Lycurgo as Tim Drake. You can google "Tim Drake" DC to find out how he might fit into the present story.

[Hanahope]

Well Hank and Dawn were both morons this episode.  I suppose it will be interesting to see what Dawn does from here. 

[KittenPokerCheater]

5 hours ago, Hanahope said:

I suppose it will be interesting to see what Dawn does from here. 

I hope she keeps her hands off of Robin.

(Team Starfire)

[AngieBee1]

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Well Hank and Dawn were both morons this episode.

So moronic that it was comical. But I really liked Hawk in this episode - stupidity aside. He faced his fate bravely and with warmth towards his teammates.  

But damn, Jason is worthy foe for the Titans.

[Primal Slayer]

The best part of the episode? Hank getting naked.

Worst part? Hank dying. 

Hawk/Dove I've grown to like even though they get WAY TO MUCH focus across the past 2 seasons and Alan Richardson played him perfectly so going through with his death actually made me a bit sad. 

I dont know what it is about Hank/Dawn but their episodes seem to be the only episodes that actually center around them as characters and they are the A-story and this one didn't change.

Jason as Red Hood...I just can't care that much and find him being the big bad as almost laughable. Of course the story is INSANELY rushed. Jason is all of a sudden being his best Batman with thinking through everything and knowing how others will react...this is not the Jason that we spent 2 seasons with or even the first 5 mins with this season. 

I am glad to have Barbara on my screen as I love me some Babs and her anger is justifiable but I feel like they are pulling a Laurel here with introducing the character to the audience and have her be angry in every episode so others are having a harder time enjoying the character. 

Bruce running away to lick his wounds is just.....they couldn't have killed him off?

[BK1978]

On 8/14/2021 at 1:03 AM, AnimeMania said:

That is Jay Lycurgo as Tim Drake. You can google "Tim Drake" DC to find out how he might fit into the present story.

That was who I thought he was but I did not catch the name.  Thank you.

They really are burning through years and years of stuff with Tim Drake being involved in this season as well.

[Hanahope]

On 8/14/2021 at 9:03 PM, AngieBee1 said:

So moronic that it was comical. But I really liked Hawk in this episode - stupidity aside. He faced his fate bravely and with warmth towards his teammates.  

But damn, Jason is worthy foe for the Titans.

He's only "worthy" because 1) they let him with their stupidity; 2) somehow he was able to steal a bunch of tech from batman; 3) he clearly has help

[Starry]

For the first time since early season 1 I am so invested in the show I can't wait for the next episode. The pacing works for me. If they managed to keep it up, I would be grateful.

I couldn't stand Jason and his drama before but Red Hood? I love him! If turning Jason into a scary criminal mastermind is their way of making me care for the character I am all for it.

I never had a problem with Hank and Dawn and was sad about Hank's death. Yes he was dumb, reckless and stubborn but I still felt for him and I am sure giving him touching interactions with other characters like Dick and Gar helped a lot. Still, I hope they won't undo everything that's happened in this episode and bring him back through some comic booky shenanigans. Death has to mean something. I don't know what this means for Jason. Killing is one thing. Murdering a team member? You don't come back from that. Or at least you shouldn't but we'll see how the show handles it.

I like Barbara just fine and think she was right about Bruce. Sure he feels for Jason and his death but he was being toxic about the whole thing. He was already planning on recruiting other kids.

I hope there's more to Scarecrow because his scenes are the only thing that's not working for me. The Titans are supposed to be smart and resourceful. They shouldn't need to go to him for help.

Can we get more Dick and Kory scenes? He said he was going to check on her in the last episode but then found her with the group and they never talked again. I miss their interactions.

What I didn't like in the past was the show's obsession with trying to juggle too many characters and too many plots at the same time. I hope they won't make the same mistake again. The cast is bloated and some of them are underused. I think that's why I am not really missing Rachel even though I've always liked her.

[Snapdragon]

Well, there goes my theory that the whole Red Hood thing was some sort of elaborate fake out by Jason and Bruce.  Hank's death...that was just tragic.  Poor Dawn.  She's my least favorite character but geeze, being the one that accidentally killed Hank?  That was harsh.  

[blackwing]

I haven't liked Hank and Dawn either, but I felt so bad for both of them.  Hank was trying to do his tough guy act but then admitted he was scared.  I figured he was going to die, but I thought he was going to pull the bomb out himself and make it detonate.  Instead, it turns out that Dawn set off the detonator.  Especially tragic since those extra five seconds were all that Connor would have needed to have gotten to the bomb.

Jason was very sick to target Hank knowing that Hank was vulnerable and insecure and yet he was the most likely to circumvent Dick and not tell him what was going on.  I don't get the point of making him strip and dive into the pool.  Presumably it was so he could see if there was a wire, and maybe to short out any hidden communication devices.  But if Hank had really wanted to lead Dick and team to find Jason, he could have just told them what he was doing.  Or have a drone or someone follow him.  Also, as soon as Hank entered that gym, Jason could have just attacked him and knocked him unconscious and then attached the bomb.

The cast was very bloated at this point, so I was expecting a few people to get cut.  I am assuming that Rachel is coming back.  Not sure about Rose, maybe she is gone, maybe she isn't.  I think Donna will probably come back.  I am not sure if Dawn will stick around.  And I really hope that Geriatric Bruce Wayne doesn't come back ever.

Did Dawn upgrade her suit this season?  Or has she always been able to shoot feather knives from it?  Or use it as a shield?  Have the wings always been metal?  In past seasons I just remember her punching and kicking and I don't remember her suit being used offensively or defensively.

When Connor was introduced, wasn't he kind of like a child who didn't really know who he was or how to do anything?  I guess he must have "grown" a lot in between seasons.  Because now he's a tech whiz who can read manuals fast and then know how to solve/fix things.

[Racj82]

They've been hinting all through this arc so far that it's not just Jason alone and he couldn’t pull all this off. I don't why there is any assumption that he is doing this alone. It's also classic tv. They did a early reveal. Save the mastermind for a bigger reveal.

[Racj82]

11 hours ago, blackwing said:

I haven't liked Hank and Dawn either, but I felt so bad for both of them.  Hank was trying to do his tough guy act but then admitted he was scared.  I figured he was going to die, but I thought he was going to pull the bomb out himself and make it detonate.  Instead, it turns out that Dawn set off the detonator.  Especially tragic since those extra five seconds were all that Connor would have needed to have gotten to the bomb.

Jason was very sick to target Hank knowing that Hank was vulnerable and insecure and yet he was the most likely to circumvent Dick and not tell him what was going on.  I don't get the point of making him strip and dive into the pool.  Presumably it was so he could see if there was a wire, and maybe to short out any hidden communication devices.  But if Hank had really wanted to lead Dick and team to find Jason, he could have just told them what he was doing.  Or have a drone or someone follow him.  Also, as soon as Hank entered that gym, Jason could have just attacked him and knocked him unconscious and then attached the bomb.

The cast was very bloated at this point, so I was expecting a few people to get cut.  I am assuming that Rachel is coming back.  Not sure about Rose, maybe she is gone, maybe she isn't.  I think Donna will probably come back.  I am not sure if Dawn will stick around.  And I really hope that Geriatric Bruce Wayne doesn't come back ever.

Did Dawn upgrade her suit this season?  Or has she always been able to shoot feather knives from it?  Or use it as a shield?  Have the wings always been metal?  In past seasons I just remember her punching and kicking and I don't remember her suit being used offensively or defensively.

When Connor was introduced, wasn't he kind of like a child who didn't really know who he was or how to do anything?  I guess he must have "grown" a lot in between seasons.  Because now he's a tech whiz who can read manuals fast and then know how to solve/fix things.

They've shown her using her wings like blades before. 

Connor has the brains of Lex with the ability to read and understand information like Clark. None of this is out of bounds. It really isn't explored enough how smart Clark and Connor should be.

[Phillygurl]

Not Hank! He was comic relief and man-candy all rolled into one. He was like a teddybear I just wanted to snuggle. That being said, at risk of echoing everyone else, he was extremely stupid, as was Dawn. How can you trust the word of a person so maniacal to have been involved in the sadistic events from the previous episode? And neither had back up... whats the point of being on a team if your just gonna go rogue and do whatever you want anyway???

Also, How can there be a Dove with no Hawk? 

I really did ship them. 😔

[Bruinsfan]

Dawn was so STUPID to take a psychotic teenager at his word. (Hank was too, but at least that was in-character.) And there is no way that Jason Todd could have come up with all these wheels-within-wheels plots to torment the Titans. Are there any master criminals that would be so focused on breaking the team up with Deathstroke gone? Bruce's reaction to Jason's "death" seems to be beside the point to what's going on, which would rule out Batman's more vindictive villains.

When Hank told Kory to get out and take Krypto with her, my immediate thought was "Why? Not like he's in any danger." Sad to see it proven on screen, though. I am going to laugh and laugh if a future episode features Jason gloating at his former friends and getting cut off by Krypto flying through him.

[blackwing]

Stupid question, but if Connor is super fast and indestructible, why couldn't he just snatch the bomb out of Hank's chest and fly away with it?  Or close his hands around it and contain the blast?  We saw him tinkering with the deactivator components and he can move lightning fast.  I think they said if it was removed from Hank it would go off, but I don't know why pulling it out in a last ditch effort to save him wasn't even contemplated.  Or why couldn't he use X-ray vision to determine what to cut, and then heat vision to fry a wire?

With Connor on the team, they shouldn't need anyone else.  I guess the writers are trying to make him less omnipotent.

[AngieBee1]

I would have to rewatch the episode, but wasn't the device barbed? If Connor ripped it out, wouldn't it still kill Hank? 

[Phillygurl]

1 hour ago, AngieBee1 said:

I would have to rewatch the episode, but wasn't the device barbed? If Connor ripped it out, wouldn't it still kill Hank? 

Yes exactly. It was a device created by Wayne industries.

They went through all the trouble to prove the point that the only work around was the device Connor was working on. And they showed him using his speed and intellect to do something no one else could do.

I don't think they're making him impotent. I think the point was that this device couldn't have just been manhandled. 

[tennisgurl]

Of course as soon as Hank and Dick start getting along, Hank gets blown to pieces. I have never been a big fan of Hawk and Dove (especially Dove) but I felt terrible for them here, what a messed up way to go, and then Dawn being the one who accidently got him killed. I guess they had to kill someone to really impress upon us how dangerous Jason is now and how far gone he is, but god dang he isn't fucking around. I do think that this seems a bit more diabolical then I would picture an evil Jason being, I would not be surprised at all if someone else is pulling the strings here. 

Seriously though, that was brutal. Poor Hank. Dawn's never impressed me with her brains before and her tendency to act like she knows best is always really annoying, but wow did that blow up in her face. Too soon?

Edited August 21, 2021 by tennisgurl

[AnimeMania]

Why was everybody scrubbing black stuff off of their arms, shouldn't they be scrubbing red stuff off of themselves. Krypto should have come out of the room completely red.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 8/16/2021 at 8:36 AM, Hanahope said:

He's only "worthy" because 1) they let him with their stupidity; 2) somehow he was able to steal a bunch of tech from batman; 3) he clearly has help

Also, because the Titans are not (for whatever reason) using all their resources to find him and not being particularly logical. 

Among the tactics they probably should have considered:

1. Contacting Bruce, Lucius Fox or someone at WayneTech (not to mention all the other high-tech outfits that exist) to have them work through how to stop the bomb on a parallel track

2. Freeze the bomb so it won't explode or put Hawk in suspended animation to buy even more time. (We know that Mr. Freeze exists in this universe, so it is a certainty that super-freezing tech exists, and a probability that suspended animation tech exists.)

3. Attempt to remove the bomb at some point before there was perceived to be a 0 percent risk. First of all, no simulation could necessarily calculate with perfect accuracy the risk. But given the high chance that Jason would cheat in some way, it makes sense to try when the risk was even as high as 20 percent. 

And then of course, the good guys essentially just let Jason get away after his killing spree. 

[Hanahope]

Did they really have to wait for 0% risk?  Really?  They couldn't be satisfied with 2%?  

[Bruinsfan]

If Dick had kept on top of the situation rather than chasing off after Jason, he might have told Connor that single digit chances were good enough as the countdown drew to a close. But Connor was way too full of self-doubt to make that call on his own; he was just proceeding with that "only 0% is good enough" directive from Dick.

I wish it had occurred to Gar to tell him GO when it hit 2% though.

[blackwing]

23 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

If Dick had kept on top of the situation rather than chasing off after Jason, he might have told Connor that single digit chances were good enough as the countdown drew to a close. But Connor was way too full of self-doubt to make that call on his own; he was just proceeding with that "only 0% is good enough" directive from Dick.

I wish it had occurred to Gar to tell him GO when it hit 2% though.

I didn't understand that either... when you are down to five minutes on the timer and you're at 2%, that's still a 98% chance of success.

[JTMacc99]

I also couldn't get past the idea of 98% or 99% chance of success was good enough, especially when the guy who was going to perform the extraction was in no danger of harm. 

But in this kind of show, I just have to accept that there is a "reason" that my logic is faulty. 

 

[phoenics]

I'm way late on commenting here about this episode but WOW.  This ep broke my heart - I really thought they were gonna save Hank, even though I knew the actor got another show and even though they practically telegraphed him dying.  I just had an irrational hope I guess that they would manage to save him.  Wow.

And like others, Hawk and Dove weren't my faves - but I defintely liked Hank way more than Dawn so I was really devastated to see him die.  Like - screaming at the tv in a loud "Nooooooo!" and then sitting in complete silence at the aftermath.  And I couldn't even blame Dawn - she must have been so desperate to save him and didn't think they would but man if she'd just waited 5 seconds Connor would have been able to get there and disarm it.  What a DIABOLICAL plan by Jason gaaaddddayum - poor Dawn.  She wasn't my fave (way too hypocritical and self-righteous on top of it for me) but sheesh I wouldn't wish that on anyone.  Wow.  Poor poor Dawn.  That just sucks.  I'd been hoping for a spin-off for Hawk and Dove ... not this?  Poor Dawn realizing what happened and that she detonated the bomb ... FFS that was awful.

Connor standing there in the flames and aftermath of the explosion gave me Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice vibes from when the capital explosion happened and Superman was standing in the middle of it all after the bomb went off.  Krypto walking out all somber and sad really made me emotional for some reason.  I don't know why that part made me lose it.

 

[Quark]

I've started watching this season in the last day or so. It's been brilliant so far! Sad to see Hank go, he was growing on me, even if he was extremely stupid this episode.

I hope Jason dies a gruesome death.