Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022)

[Pearson80]

On 1/24/2023 at 12:15 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Happy for that. Though now it seems even more of a waste that they killed her off.

I am hoping that there will be another variant of Queen Ramonda from another time.  It would be great to see Angela play another version of Queen Ramonda. 

Angela was against Queen Ramonda's death and spoke to Ryan Coogler about her objections and he assured her that nobody ever really stays dead in the MCU so stay tune..

Edited January 26 by Pearson80

[tv echo]

Marvel Studios’ Black Panther: Wakanda Forever | Ruth E. Carter Behind the Scenes
Marvel Entertainment     Jan 25, 2023

[tv echo]

Making of: Underwater Scenes in Marvel Studios' Black Panther: Wakanda Forever
Marvel Entertainment    Jan 28, 2023

[AnimeMania]

I was watching the funeral scene wondering how many baby elephants had to die to make Shuri's earrings? After closer inspection, the tusks are not attached to her ears, but hanging off her headband on a string behind her ears.

[tv echo]

Marvel Studios’ Black Panther: Wakanda Forever | Tomorrow on Disney+
Marvel Entertainment    Jan 31, 2023

How Namor's Wings Work | Marvel Studios' Black Panther: Wakanda Forever
Marvel Entertainment    Jan 31, 2023

[Kel Varnsen]

Watched it tonight and mostly liked it. The ending I thought was kind of dumb though because I can't believe that it took almost dying for Namor to realize that some kind of mutual defence agreement with Wakanda, is still pretty useful, even if they don't attack anyone.

I am glad how they said that T'Challa died of an undisclosed disease. Because Jane having cancer in Thor was some top level bullshit, considering technology-wise the MCU is nearly on par with Star Trek (except for maybe teleporting).

Also a small thing but the effects of Namor's people turning blue when they came out of the water looked really good. The Boston car chase was pretty good although I couldn't help but wonder where that drone landed. 

It is also kind of amazing that a significant percentage of this movie is subtitled in several different languages. Kind of shows again how marvel is at a point where they aren't afraid to get try and get away with anything. Compare that to phase one and in First Avenger you had Nazi's talking to other Nazis in Germany and speaking English.

[Spartan Girl]

Good analysis from The Take, but I have to disagree that Shuri spared Namor because she still feels empathy for him—more like she wanted to avoid a war that  destroy more innocent lives. That doesn’t mean she’ll forgive him, let alone consider him an ally.

Shuri’s story arc and how her grief consumed her is almost exactly like Wanda’s. Only difference is that even at her lowest point, Shuri still had people who gave a damn about her.

[tracyscott76]

Finally saw this on Disney+ this weekend (timing didn't work out to see it in the theater). I feel bad saying this because of the crummy circumstances they had to deal with in making this, and A for effort, but...

I didn't really like it at all. It wasn't bad per se, but I found myself quite bored and restless through most of it, and it was the first time I felt like I was watching an MCU movie out of obligation. I've never cared for Shuri as a character, so having her as the lead didn't help, but even the scenes without her dragged for me. Maybe the sequence showing Namor's kingdom would have worked better in the theater, but as it was, I felt that it went on forever, and I kept thinking "let's move on, please."

While it was cool that Namor is in the MCU now, I didn't really enjoy him. I think this might be an instance of a character working well and being kind of fun in a comicbook setting (at least in the older comics), but in a modern, live action setting where everything is much more...well-defined, he and his army were so bloodthirsty (justified perhaps in the flashback, not so much in the present day) that I couldn't sympathize with them at all.

M'Baku was kind of cool, and Angela Bassett certainly earned her Oscar nomination, and the tributes to Chadwick Boseman were very nice, but other than that...eh. The post-Endgame movies have been much less universally solid for me, but I wouldn't mind watching any of them again (except possibly for the excessively graphic dispatching of the Illuminati in Dr. Strange). I can't say the same for this one, however, which makes me kinda sad 😕

[BetterButter]

 

[Lantern7]

26 minutes ago, BetterButter said:

 

“Catwoman vs. Aguaman”

Well done stuff. And yeah, way for the movie to show restraint by not deepfaking Chadwick.

[Spartan Girl]

4 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

“Catwoman vs. Aguaman”

Well done stuff. And yeah, way for the movie to show restraint by not deepfaking Chadwick.

I agree with them saying they need to stop making Val happen. They had the chance in TFATWS and they squandered it.

But if I hear one more take about Namor being an antihero, I’ll scream. FFS he has willing to murder a teenager just because she invented a vibramium tracker. He didn’t just want to protect his people, he wanted to wipe out pretty much all surface dwellers and take over the world. How was that any better than Kilmonger?!

[Kel Varnsen]

On 2/6/2023 at 9:50 AM, tracyscott76 said:

I've never cared for Shuri as a character, so having her as the lead didn't help,

That was sort of an issue for me. I mean I still think I would have preferred a new T'Challa, although Shuri as BP and M'Baku as king of Wakanda could be interesting. The part where everyone was hiding out in his kingdom and he was annoyed by it was pretty funny. 

Although thinking about how he was kind I guess that means after T'Challa died there must have been a Warrior Falls ceremony where Ramonda becomes Queen right? Since she probably didn't actually fight anyone now I feel cheated out of what probably would have been an awesome Angela Bassett speech to convince the other tribes to let her be in charge.

[tracyscott76]

6 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Although thinking about how he was kind I guess that means after T'Challa died there must have been a Warrior Falls ceremony where Ramonda becomes Queen right? Since she probably didn't actually fight anyone now I feel cheated out of what probably would have been an awesome Angela Bassett speech to convince the other tribes to let her be in charge.

Or perhaps she fought M'Baku and beat him 😆

[Kel Varnsen]

14 minutes ago, tracyscott76 said:

Or perhaps she fought M'Baku and beat him 😆

That would have been awesome too.

 

[Bruinsfan]

See, THAT I would have had an easier time buying than Shuri suddenly becoming a world class martial artist when she'd spent all her previous time and energy becoming the nation's leading scientific genius.

[Kel Varnsen]

9 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

See, THAT I would have had an easier time buying than Shuri suddenly becoming a world class martial artist when she'd spent all her previous time and energy becoming the nation's leading scientific genius.

Being a scientific genius in the MCU doesn't seem that hard. I mean Scott Lang has a master's in electrical engineering and he seems like a dumbass. 

[Dani]

1 hour ago, Bruinsfan said:

See, THAT I would have had an easier time buying than Shuri suddenly becoming a world class martial artist when she'd spent all her previous time and energy becoming the nation's leading scientific genius.

Based on her driving and shooting skills in the first movie, all of her previous time and energy wasn’t focused on science. In a nation where the ruler is determined by combat and women are viewed as warriors, I would be more surprised if a princess didn’t have extensive fight training. 

[tv echo]

Marvel Studios' Assembled: The Making of Black Panther: Wakanda Forever is now available on Disney+...

Marvel Studios' Assembled: The Making of Black Panther: Wakanda Forever | Official Trailer
Marvel Entertainment    Feb 8, 2023

The Impact of Wakanda | Marvel Studios’ Black Panther: Wakanda Forever
Marvel Entertainment    Feb 8, 2023

[tv echo]

A Conversation with Danai Gurira & Simone Manuel | Marvel Studios' Black Panther: Wakanda Forever
Marvel Entertainment    Feb 10, 2023

[rmontro]

On 2/6/2023 at 9:50 AM, tracyscott76 said:

While it was cool that Namor is in the MCU now, I didn't really enjoy him. I think this might be an instance of a character working well and being kind of fun in a comicbook setting (at least in the older comics)

I enjoyed the movie for the most part.  But Namor was a big negative for me.  I just kept thinking "That's not the Sub-Mariner".  Namor worked in the comics because he's a completely different character.  He's not K'uk'ulkan, and he's king of Atlantis, not Talokan. 

I believe it was the director's decision to make him Mayan, and in my opinion it was a crap decision.  Why would you want to change something that worked so well in the comics for over 80 years?  This is akin to changing Galactus into a cloud (not quite that bad, but it's similar).  I'll also add I would have thought they would have chosen someone a little more jacked to play him, he looked too puny.

[Tenshinhan]

2 hours ago, rmontro said:

He's not K'uk'ulkan, and he's king of Atlantis, not Talokan.

What's so different about Atlantis versus Talokan?  One is borrowed from Greek mythology and the other from Aztec mythology.

 

2 hours ago, rmontro said:

Why would you want to change something that worked so well in the comics for over 80 years?

Just because something works well doesn't mean you cannot or should not change it.  And the length of time of something is even less of a reason not to change it.

I think the film's story makes it clear why the director chose to make the changes that he did.

[Kel Varnsen]

44 minutes ago, Tenshinhan said:

What's so different about Atlantis versus Talokan?  One is borrowed from Greek mythology and the other from Aztec mythology.

The idea of a king of Atlantis seems super generic to me so I am glad they went with something a bit more interesting. Plus it can still be the kind of thing where ancient people had their legend of a place called Atlantis but it was actually Namorn of Talokan they were seeing. Like how MCU Thor isn't exactly the name as Norse myth Thor.

Plus it seemed like they changed Namor way less than they changed Everett K Ross. But is anyone bothered by the fact that he is now a super competent CIA officer instead of an in over his head diplomat?

[Perfect Xero]

55 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The idea of a king of Atlantis seems super generic to me so I am glad they went with something a bit more interesting. Plus it can still be the kind of thing where ancient people had their legend of a place called Atlantis but it was actually Namorn of Talokan they were seeing. Like how MCU Thor isn't exactly the name as Norse myth Thor.

Since they tied Namor's origin to the Spanish in the Americas this isn't really possible. Plato wrote about Atlantis in 360 BC, so over 1800 years before Namor would have been born.

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The idea of a king of Atlantis seems super generic to me so I am glad they went with something a bit more interesting.

I'm glad you enjoyed it, but it just didn't work for me.  I've read a lot of comics though, and I was used to Namor the way he was.  He's a very classic character (he predates Aquaman), and IMO if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  Don't sacrifice one of your best characters just because one director wants to do something different with him for one movie.  The rest of the movie was fine, but the Namor part was meh, seems like a missed opportunity.  

[tracyscott76]

5 hours ago, rmontro said:

I enjoyed the movie for the most part.  But Namor was a big negative for me.  I just kept thinking "That's not the Sub-Mariner".  Namor worked in the comics because he's a completely different character.  He's not K'uk'ulkan, and he's king of Atlantis, not Talokan. 

I believe it was the director's decision to make him Mayan, and in my opinion it was a crap decision.  Why would you want to change something that worked so well in the comics for over 80 years?  This is akin to changing Galactus into a cloud (not quite that bad, but it's similar).  I'll also add I would have thought they would have chosen someone a little more jacked to play him, he looked too puny.

Switching Namor's origin isn't the part that bothered me really. I get why they did it, and it's just another way to get the character to the point he's at in the modern world. His overall motivations were similar, and that was fine.

It was more his attitude and actions that didn't feel like Namor to me, and he and his army reflected an increasing degree of grimness and violence in the MCU that I'm not loving, but was perhaps inevitable.

[Bruinsfan]

To be fair, Namor returned from a long absence at the beginning of the Silver Age as a villain and repeatedly led big invasions of the surface world, so his actions in the movie didn't feel particularly off brand to me. I mainly question how the hell the Talokians got the intel to track down Riri Williams when everyone but Namor has blue skin and needs life support equipment above water.

[tracyscott76]

8 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

To be fair, Namor returned from a long absence at the beginning of the Silver Age as a villain and repeatedly led big invasions of the surface world, so his actions in the movie didn't feel particularly off brand to me. I mainly question how the hell the Talokians got the intel to track down Riri Williams when everyone but Namor has blue skin and needs life support equipment above water.

The way his invasions were presented in the comics was very different from how the attacks were portrayed in this movie. In the comics, it was mostly property being damaged (Comics Code and all), and lots of bombast and grand language from Namor, when he wasn't getting distracted by a certain blonde, otherwise-engaged young woman. In other words, he was a villain, but he was fun and dynamic and kind of rootable in his own way.

In this movie, he was almost entirely morose and humorless, and the level of violence against actual people was ratcheted up considerably. For me, that made  him a very different kind of character, one that was impossible to enjoy or sympathize with.

Edited February 15 by tracyscott76
were/was change

[rmontro]

15 hours ago, tracyscott76 said:

It was more his attitude and actions that didn't feel like Namor to me, and he and his army reflected an increasing degree of grimness and violence in the MCU that I'm not loving, but was perhaps inevitable.

Agree his personality seemed completely off.  And aside from the green trunks and winged feet, his look was off also.

 

3 hours ago, tracyscott76 said:

The way his invasions were presented in the comics was very different from how the attacks were portrayed in this movie. In the comics, it was mostly property being damaged (Comics Code and all), and lots of bombast and grand language from Namor, when he wasn't getting distracted by a certain blonde, otherwise-engaged young woman. In other words, he was a villain, but he was fun and dynamic and kind of rootable in his own way.

Yes, you get it.  Unfortunately, it's pretty clear that they don't do these Marvel movies anymore to please comic book fans.  Which is a shame, because when they started out with Iron Man through the first Avengers movie, it definitely did appear that they were trying to please those fans.  I don't get that impression at all anymore.

[Chyromaniac]

Respectfully, I really don't agree with the idea that the MCU has abandoned comic fans.  They may not be the books that some fans know and love (or honestly me either, I was mostly a 90's X-Men reader), but clearly they're still drawing inspiration from comics ideas - stories and characters that have fans of their own.  Jane Foster becoming Thor and battling cancer.  Spider-Man meeting his alternate selves, or having to bargain away his relationships to protect the people he loves.  From my understanding, the Ms Marvel, Hawkeye, and Moon Knight shows were inspired by runs from specific creators, and She-Hulk certainly drew from the 4th wall breaking tone of her series.  Even for this film - the circumstances may be different, but Shuri having to take over as Black Panther from T'Challa is an idea rooted in comics lore.

And honestly, I don't think the current films are any more or less faithful than the Phase One films.  Yes - they did a great job of telling the origins of the classic Avengers.  But, I think they also benefit greatly from coming on the heels of the "no yellow spandex" X-Men and other attempts at "grounded" comic stories.   Like, "Cloud Galactus" was mentioned above - does anyone honestly think the pre-MCU era would have done better with Namor than this movie?  Imagine if Tim Story had made a third F4.  Sure, Namor probably would've been a white dude from Atlantis (Josh Duhamel?  Taylor Kitsch? Seann William Scott?) - but IMO there's no way we'd get the ankle wings.  And odds are good he'd just be a generic eco-villain - I can hear him now, "Well Reed - to me, humanity is the real pollution..."  Yawn.

Tenoch Huerta Mejia might not look exactly like the fish-man Bill Everett drew 80+ years ago - although to be frank, the only big differences I see are how he's presented racially/culturally.  But the character we get in this film is vibrant, interesting, and with a viewpoint and goals that are both uniquely his own, but also play into the political dynamics established for Wakanda in the MCU.  And yes, he feels like comics Namor to me.  I'm very interested to see when he pops up again, and in what context.

[tv echo]

Angela Bassett on 'Black Panther: Wakanda Forever' | The Awardist | Entertainment Weekly
Entertainment Weekly    Feb 21, 2023

Voices Rising: The Music of Wakanda Forever | Announce
Marvel Entertainment    Feb 21, 2023

[arc]

On 2/14/2023 at 10:19 PM, Bruinsfan said:

To be fair, Namor returned from a long absence at the beginning of the Silver Age as a villain and repeatedly led big invasions of the surface world, so his actions in the movie didn't feel particularly off brand to me.

Well, in the comics he's often a bit of an easily pissed off asshole, albeit with a pretty justified grudge about humans exploiting the ocean. I think it doesn't make as much sense in the MCU where this version is explicitly anti-colonialist, not just anti-surface-world. I guess there might not even be a conflict if Talokan was just as isolationist as Wakanda, but Namor is way more willing to launch wars than Wakanda under T'Challa or T'Chaka. And yeah, it doesn't even make sense for Talokan to wage war on the surface world. At least when Killmonger planned it, it was for Wakanda, a nation of air-breathing people. Talokans need the reverse-scuba gear to venture out of the oceans.

Along the same lines, I think it was a superficially clever but ultimately not great idea that Namor's name came from his adopting what Spanish conquistadors called him. It's presented as a sort of reclamation or to show how much he hates the Spanish and really all colonizers, but I guess I don't see why he wouldn't prefer to be called K’uk’ulkan. At least when he's making his initial overtures to Shuri, he wasn't coming as an enemy. The real reason is because the comics character is called Namor, of course. I'm just saying I wished they could have just called him Namor without tying it to how the Spanish called him the boy without love.

On 2/14/2023 at 1:10 PM, rmontro said:

I'll also add I would have thought they would have chosen someone a little more jacked to play him, he looked too puny.

I think it's great that Hollywood let off on the super ripped look, which is a bodybuilding ideal, but it's extremely unhealthy. Even professional bodybuilders can only look like that on competition days, because it takes a dangerous level of dehydration to look super cut. There's a viral image about how this change has happened in a generation, because Hugh Jackman's first movie as Wolverine was him looking just reasonably buff, and in one of his last ones he was both swole* and cut to an unreasonable ideal.

* which, let's be real, Hollywood training regimes do involve a lot of weight lifting and diet management but they almost certainly also include steroids.

Anyways, Huerta was pretty buff in this movie; he just hadn't taken body fat and hydration down to unsustainable levels to get super cut.

Edited February 24 by arc

[tv echo]

Wakanda Forever received five nominations for Critics Choice Super Awards...

Nominations Announced for the 3rd Annual Critics Choice Super Awards honoring Superhero, Science Fiction/Fantasy, Horror, and Action Movies and Series
February 22, 2023
https://www.criticschoice.com/2023/02/22/nominations-announced-for-the-3rd-annual-critics-choice-super-awards-honoring-superhero-science-fiction-fantasy-horror-and-action-movies-and-series/

Quote

(Los Angeles, CA – February 22, 2023) – The Critics Choice Association (CCA) announced today the nominees for the 3rd Annual Critics Choice Super Awards, honoring the most popular, fan-obsessed genres across both television and movies, including Superhero, Science Fiction/Fantasy, Horror, and Action. Winners will be revealed via a special announcement on Thursday, March 16.
*  *  *
BEST SUPERHERO MOVIE*
The Batman
Black Panther: Wakanda Forever
DC League of Super-Pets
Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness
Thor: Love and Thunder

BEST ACTOR IN A SUPERHERO MOVIE*
Benedict Cumberbatch – Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness
Paul Dano – The Batman
Colin Farrell – The Batman
Tenoch Huerta – Black Panther: Wakanda Forever
Robert Pattinson – The Batman

BEST ACTRESS IN A SUPERHERO MOVIE*
Angela Bassett – Black Panther: Wakanda Forever
Zoë Kravitz – The Batman
Elizabeth Olsen – Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness
Natalie Portman – Thor: Love and Thunder
Letitia Wright – Black Panther: Wakanda Forever
*  *  *
BEST VILLAIN IN A MOVIE 
Paul Dano – The Batman
Mia Goth – Pearl
Tenoch Huerta – Black Panther: Wakanda Forever
Joey King – Bullet Train
Elizabeth Olsen – Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness
Mark Rylance – Bones and All

Edited February 24 by tv echo

[tv echo]

NAACP Image Awards 2023: See the complete list of winners
By Lisa Respers France    February 25, 2023
https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/25/entertainment/naacp-image-award-winners-list/index.html 

Edited February 27 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Wakanda Forever Opens Big on Nielsen's Overall Streaming Chart, Poker Face Sets a New Peacock Record
By Matt Webb Mitovich / March 2 2023
https://tvline.com/2023/03/02/black-panther-wakanda-forever-nielsen-stream-chart/ 

Quote

With its Disney+ release, Black Panther: Wakanda Forever dominated Nielsen’s overall U.S. ranking of streaming programs, while Poker Face set another record for Peacock on the series chart.
*  *  *
Meanwhile over on Nielsen’s ranking of Top 10 Streaming Programs (which includes acquired fare, movies and whatnot), Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (with a running time of 2 hrs. 41 minutes) dominated with nearly 2.3 billion. minutes viewed, making it the third-most streamed movie in a measurement week since the chart’s 2020 debut. Also of note, The Last of Us (via HBO Max) rose two spots to No. 4, racking up 1.2 billion minutes viewed for its first four episodes.

[Danny Franks]

This movie is kind of a mess. I know they had to scramble to make adjustments because of Chadwick's passing, but I don't think they did a good job at all. Honestly, the whole thing was really boring, which is worse than if it was bad.

The script is all over the place, and I really struggled to pay attention to all the muttered dialogue. They don't have a lead that has the charm to make up for it. Shuri just doesn't work for me as a main character. She's dull and the actress is far too limited to headline a big, CGI-driven action movie. She has no presence.

Namor should have been arrogant charisma personified and he wasn't. Very disappointing introduction for the character. Also, the wings do not work on screen. 

The movie really only came to life when at least one of three actors were on screen - Angela Bassett, Winston Duke and Lupita Nyong'o. And none of them were on screen enough. Three actors with so much charisma and gravitas, and they're just side characters. Mad. Then they killed one of them off, just for the sake of it.

I got really tired of murky, poorly lit scenes after the first twenty minutes. But this movie was at least thirty minutes longer than it needed to be.

All in all, so very underwhelming and disappointing. I'd watch an M'Baku movie, or a Nakia one. Hell, I'll happily watch those two do anything.

Edited March 4 by Danny Franks

[Kel Varnsen]

On 2/24/2023 at 6:40 AM, arc said:

think it's great that Hollywood let off on the super ripped look, which is a bodybuilding ideal, but it's extremely unhealthy. Even professional bodybuilders can only look like that on competition days, because it takes a dangerous level of dehydration to look super cut. There's a viral image about how this change has happened in a generation, because Hugh Jackman's first movie as Wolverine was him looking just reasonably buff, and in one of his last ones he was both swole* and cut to an unreasonable ideal.

For a lot of super heros it doesn't make a lot of sense either. Like if Namor has super powers from exposure to vibrainum, then why does he also need to be super jacked. And if he is magically super strong how does he even work out? Then again it is not as stupid as Peter Quill be being crazy ripped because like that guy can maintain any kind of workout routine or diet. But yeah anytime I read a story about how an actors shirtless or big flex scene has to be the first think shot because it is impossible to maintain that look it sounds so stupid.

[tv echo]

Wakanda Forever won an Oscar for Best Costume Design...

Oscars: Complete Winners List
BY KIMBERLY NORDYKE   MARCH 12, 2023
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/2023-oscars-winners-list-1235349224/ 

Quote

Best Costume Design
Babylon — Mary Zophres
Black Panther: Wakanda Forever — Ruth Carter (WINNER)
Elvis — Catherine Martin
Everything Everywhere All at Once — Shirley Kurata
Mrs. Harris Goes to Paris — Jenny Beavan

Edited March 13 by tv echo

[Spartan Girl]

Glad for the costume win but I’m still upset Angela lost. Bring in a “comic book movie” didn’t stop Heath and Joaquin from winning the Oscar so what the hell?! Has she not given EVERYTHING?

 

[festivus]

I just watched this movie the other night and it was hella boring. I haven't seen any of the other Oscar nominated movies but if I as a Marvel fan was bored then I can imagine the voters not even watching the whole movie.

That being said Angela was the best thing about it. I would not have made Shuri the Black Panther, the actress just don't got it. And I did like her in the first movie in her genius teenager role. Just don't think she can carry a movie. 

Namor bored me to tears. This may just be my old people eyes but this movie was way too dark. I was ready to be wowed by the underwater kingdom but I couldn't even see that shit. 

[tv echo]

‘Everything Everywhere All At Once’, ‘The Boys’ Top Critics Choice Super Awards
By Patrick Hipes    March 16, 2023 
https://deadline.com/2023/03/2023-critics-choice-super-awards-winners-list-movies-tv-1235301769/ 

Quote

BEST ACTRESS IN A SUPERHERO MOVIE
Angela Bassett – Black Panther: Wakanda Forever