Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness (2022)

[Raja]

3 hours ago, arc said:

THR has a review I really like, but to me it also highlights one way the film fell short: the parallels between Wanda’s loss* and Strange’s loss are a little too thinly drawn. His dissatisfaction with having lost Christine isn’t a match for the despair that Wanda has over losing her sons. It never feels as potent, so there’s no weight to him spurning her offer of a universe where Stephen and Christine are together.

* also, whoa, I actually forgot that the third major loss of Wanda’s life was her brother. Which, again, the Wandavision show already touched on, but it still feels very heartless of this movie to compress her goal to strictly finding replacements for her sons, and not her brother and husband. 

Well on WandaVision,

Spoiler

Vision had left, not forced away, before "the show" was renamed for a single mother sitcom before it was " cancelled"

 

[Shannon L.]

It really pains me to say this, but my least favorite Marvel movie, which hadn't moved from that spot since the day I saw it in the theater, has finally been replaced with this one. I thought the attempts to make it both a horror movie and a typical Marvel movie where jarring and just didn't work.  Even the usual fun Marvel cameos were a let down.  The only thing I liked about it were the cool, Dr. Strange visual effects, and the strong performances (especially Elizabeth Olsen). Xochitl Gomez held her own with her co-stars and I really liked her character, so I'm looking forward to seeing her again, as well as what comes next with Strange and the new character played by Charlize Theron.    Overall, though, I was very disappointed in this one.  When I left the theater, I said "Well...Happy Mother's Day."  to which my daughter responded "Yeah, that movie should have been marketed like Deadpool marketed his movie as a romance movie.".  Our theater was full, as usual, but silent through most of it, which isn't typical for a Marvel movie. 

[Spartan Girl]

@Shannon L. may ask what your other least favorite one is?

[Shannon L.]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

@Shannon L. may ask what your other least favorite one is?

Captain America:  The First Avenger.  But, even in that one, I really liked the beginning.  The movie bored me to the point of fighting sleep after he turned into Cap.  I've tried watching it twice since then and I still kept getting distracted with other things starting around the same point in the movie.  I did appreciate the production design though, just like I appreciated the usual Dr. Strange special effects/CGI in this one (the bending and fracturing of the city).  However, I didn't enjoy MoM for any long length of time as much as I enjoyed the first part of The First Avenger. I just liked occasional brief moments throughout the movie.   Like I said in my previous post, though, the performances were strong.  I can at least appreciate that, too.

[tv echo]

Doctor Strange 2: Every Connection to WandaVision and Other Marvel TV Series (Including, Yes, Even THAT One)
By Matt Webb Mitovich / May 6 2022
https://tvline.com/lists/doctor-strange-multiverse-madness-wandavision-tv-series-crossovers/loki-sylvie-kills-he-who-remains-kang-disrupts-multiverse/

Marvel Studios’ Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness | Mind-Flip
Marvel Entertainment   May 7, 2022

Marvel Studios’ Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness | #1 in the World
Marvel Entertainment   May 8, 2022

Edited May 8, 2022 by tv echo

[greekmom]

Just came back from it.  It was ok.  I think the thrill going back to seeing a 3d movie really helped.

Our final thought was if Wanda is able to create Westview, the apple grove and do all those amazing things, she should have been able to recreate Tommy and Billy and not need access to the multiverse.

It was never explained if Tommy and Billy were still part of the Westview thing in the alternate universes.

[Proclone]

I just got back from seeing this and I kind of disappointed. In a vacuum, I'd probably like it. I know other people weren't really a fan, but I didn't mind Dr. Strange as a horror movie.  I actually like that several Marvel movies are other genres as well as being superhero movies.  And overall I felt like the performances were strong.

What I really didn't like about it, was what they did to Wanda.  It seems like the film ignores pretty much all her character growth...Especially in light of the events of WandaVision.  In the series, she learned how much she was letting her grief hurt those around her and she seemed to make some level of peace in letting Vision, Billy and Tommy go.  This movie just ignores all that (despite referencing the events of the show), and makes her willing to murder to get to the boys back. I also thought it was strange (no pun intended) that Vision wasn't really mentioned in all this.  There has to be a universe with Billy, Tommy and Vision all together, right? I mean the obvious answer is they couldn't get or didn't want to use Paul Bettany for some reason, but his absence on screen and more importantly as a lack of motive for Wanda seemed to make little sense, since she enslaved a town over her grief for him. 

The character of Wanda that we've been presented to over all these movies, does not strike me as someone who's willing to murder in cold blood, especially not murder a teenage girl who has powers she can't control and who Wanda might see herself in, for purely selfish reasons. It was even a plot point in WandaVision that she wasn't really aware of all the pain she was causing.  And she did let the townspeople go when she realized it. Hell, Strange himself, points this out in the movie.

It's kind of character assignation to make her the straight up villain, even if they did keep her sympathetic. And frankly it's just poor writing. Character arcs should arc, having characters constantly revert or backslide and forget all the lessons they've learned, isn't particularly satisfying. And the funny thing is, they could have kept Wanda as the villain without it.  The easiest way was to continue from the after credits of WandaVision.  They show Wanda hear the boys cry for help.  I can't see Wanda murdering a girl simply to make herself feel better, but to protect her children, yeah I can see Wanda doing what she did in the film.  Just make it explicit that she trying to find the Billy and Tommy that were crying out for her, that she thinks are serious danger.  That makes her way more sympathetic.  She's not a villain who willing to sacrifice people for her own gain, she's a misguided mother out to protect her kids.

They also simply could have made this a Wanda from another universe. One that experienced Billy and Tommy but didn't learn the lessons of Westview.  Perhaps this one didn't even have a Vision or something else happened to him (perhaps he's hiding the children from her) and that's why she's not gung-ho about being with him too. Simply have America accidently bring this other Wanda into our universe. 

I don't follow entertainment news enough to know if this was the end of Olsen's contract with Marvel.  If it was, I'm very disappointed with how they chose to end the character. Even if it's not her last appearance as Wanda or the Scarlett Witch, I'm disappointed in what they chose to do with the character and how they chose to ignore her emotional growth.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Proclone

[Raja]

21 minutes ago, Proclone said:

I just got back from seeing this and I kind of disappointed. In a vacuum, I'd probably like it. I know other people weren't really a fan, but I didn't mind Dr. Strange as a horror movie.  I actually like that several Marvel movies are other genres as well as being superhero movies.  And overall I felt like the performances were strong.

What I really didn't like about it, was what they did to Wanda.  It seems like the film ignores pretty much all her character growth...Especially in light of the events of WandaVision.  In the series, she learned how much she was letting her grief hurt those around her and she seemed to make some level of peace in letting Vision, Billy and Tommy go.  This movie just ignores all that (despite referencing the events of the show), and makes her willing to murder to get to the boys back. I also thought it was strange (no pun intended) that Vision wasn't really mentioned in all this.  There has to be a universe with Billy, Tommy and Vision all together, right? I mean the obvious answer is they couldn't get or didn't want to use Paul Bettany for some reason, but his absence on screen and more importantly as a lack of motive for Wanda seemed to make little sense, since she enslaved a town over her grief for him. 

The character of Wanda that we've been presented to over all these movies, does not strike me as someone who's willing to murder in cold blood, especially not murder a teenage girl who has powers she can't control and who Wanda might see herself in, for purely selfish reasons. It was even a plot point in WandaVision that she wasn't really aware of all the pain she was causing.  And she did let the townspeople go when she realized it. Hell, Strange himself, points this out in the movie.

It's kind of character assignation to make her the straight up villain, even if they did keep her sympathetic. And frankly it's just poor writing. Character arcs should arc, having characters constantly revert or backslide and forget all the lessons they've learned, isn't particularly satisfying. And the funny thing is, they could have kept Wanda as the villain without it.  The easiest way was to continue from the after credits of WandaVision.  They show Wanda hear the boys cry for help.  I can't see Wanda murdering a girl simply to make herself feel better, but to protect her children, yeah I can see Wanda doing what she did in the film.  Just make it explicit that she trying to find the Billy and Tommy that were crying out for her, that she thinks are serious danger.  That makes her way more sympathetic.  She's not a villain who willing to sacrifice people for her own gain, she's a misguided mother out to protect her kids.

They also simply could have made this a Wanda from another universe. One that experienced Billy and Tommy but didn't learn the lessons of Westview.  Perhaps this one didn't even have a Vision or something else happened to him (perhaps he's hiding the children from her) and that's why she's not gung-ho about being with him too. Simply have America accidently bring this other Wanda into our universe. 

I don't follow entertainment news enough to know if this was the end of Olsen's contract with Marvel.  If it was, I'm very disappointed with how they chose to end the character. Even if it's not her last appearance as Wanda or the Scarlett Witch, I'm disappointed in what they chose to do with the character and how they chose to ignore her emotional growth.

All that I can say is Darkhold. In this case it seems as "all connected" didn't work.

Standing alone neither  Rami's work, where the Illuminati just assumed with the Darkhold a Dr. Strange had to be executed if he used it. And/or even in connection to Agatha's claims about using the Darkhold in WandaVision really spelled out to the audience what that meant when the series ended with the Scarlet Witch  reading it. That the Darkhold was stronger than all heroes.

[Hiyo]

Quote

That the Darkhold was stronger than all heroes.

That tracks with how it has been presented in the comics, so I am ok with that.

[Proclone]

2 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

That tracks with how it has been presented in the comics, so I am ok with that.

I'm not a comic reader, so I can't really speak to that.  But from a thematic and character point of view in the MCU it's poor storytelling.  It's not great storytelling to have a character learn certain lessons and then conveniently unlearn everything just because of a McGuffin.  We spent an entire series watching Wanda learn to deal with her grief.  To learn she can't just create (or steal) a family...But in this, that's exactly what she's trying to do.  Have the Darkhold corrupt her in some other way, if you need her to be the villain of this.  Don't just say to the audience that time you spent watching Wanda grieve and learn to move on was a ultimately pointless.

[Raja]

WandaVision ended with the scene of

Spoiler

what looked like a wicked witch not that of the good witch of the west to me. Wanda may have surrendered her hostages before that and went into exile. But WandaVision gave me the visual cues of a villain's heel turn

 

[Brn2bwild]

3 hours ago, Proclone said:

I can't see Wanda murdering a girl simply to make herself feel better, but to protect her children, yeah I can see Wanda doing what she did in the film.  Just make it explicit that she trying to find the Billy and Tommy that were crying out for her, that she thinks are serious danger.  That makes her way more sympathetic.  She's not a villain who willing to sacrifice people for her own gain, she's a misguided mother out to protect her kids.

I think the problem there is that Dr. Strange and America's obvious reaction then would have been: "Your kids are in trouble?  How can we help you get to them?"  That would fundamentally change the film, though in my opinion, not in a bad way.  It actually could have been very satisfying to watch them all on the same side for part of the movie, only for something to happen midway through that turns Wanda against America and Strange.

[Spartan Girl]

6 hours ago, Raja said:

WandaVision ended with the scene of

  Hide contents

what looked like a wicked witch not that of the good witch of the west to me. Wanda may have surrendered her hostages before that and went into exile. But WandaVision gave me the visual cues of a villain's heel turn

 

Foreshadowing is not the same as actual character development. Plus, the whole bit of Tommy and Billy calling out to her wasn’t at all referenced in the movie. Had the writers decided to include that, it might have made a difference.

I know Wanda’s plot lies at the feet of Feige and the writers, but let’s not forget Raimi has a history of two dimensional female characters. See also: Oz the Great and Powerful and Spider-Man.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Spartan Girl

[Dame sans merci]

18 hours ago, Shannon L. said:

It really pains me to say this, but my least favorite Marvel movie, which hadn't moved from that spot since the day I saw it in the theater, has finally been replaced with this one. I thought the attempts to make it both a horror movie and a typical Marvel movie where jarring and just didn't work.  Even the usual fun Marvel cameos were a let down.  The only thing I liked about it were the cool, Dr. Strange visual effects, and the strong performances (especially Elizabeth Olsen). Xochitl Gomez held her own with her co-stars and I really liked her character, so I'm looking forward to seeing her again, as well as what comes next with Strange and the new character played by Charlize Theron.    Overall, though, I was very disappointed in this one.  When I left the theater, I said "Well...Happy Mother's Day."  to which my daughter responded "Yeah, that movie should have been marketed like Deadpool marketed his movie as a romance movie.".  Our theater was full, as usual, but silent through most of it, which isn't typical for a Marvel movie. 

Mine too, even though it was opening day. The vibe was very flat.

I think...I kind of hated this? Somehow both dull AND over-stuffed, characterisation that was shallow as a puddle, horrible dialogue, a forgettable score, and direction that looked distractingly dated. Welp. 

[tv echo]

Elizabeth Olsen on ‘Doctor Strange 2,’ Her Marvel Contract, and How She Never Met Some of the Cast While Filming
BY STEVE WEINTRAUB  PUBLISHED 2 DAYS AGO
https://collider.com/elizabeth-olsen-marvel-contract-doctor-strange-2-multiverse-of-madness-wanda/ 

Quote

Exactly. I'm so curious, when you were going into making this movie, did you know this might be the last time? Because I heard rumblings that maybe you signed a contract extension. I'm just wondering.
OLSEN: I sign extensions every time they want me to do a movie. I just signed a very short one at the beginning, so everything's constantly just, it's always adjusting for me. No. I don't think of this either as the end.

You're one of the most popular characters in the Marvel universe. I don't see you going away. You know what I mean?
OLSEN: I don’t know in what capacity I'll be back. I don't know how to do it without, I don't want spoilers.
*  *  *
I loved your performance in this movie. Did anyone ever explain to you why you're not actually also searching for Vision in one of the other multiverses?
OLSEN: No. There's a whole list of things, like my brother, my parents. I think the main reason when we would talk about if there is this multiverse, and in the version of the universe this woman wasn't with Vision. We liked having that be a mystery. For some reason he's not in her world. I always thought of her as more of a domestic Wanda. They got divorced. They're separated. She's not wearing a wedding band for a reason. Like those kinds of things. We liked the idea of her being on her own. The idea really is that the most important thing once you become a mother in the world are your children, and that's why.

Someone said to me maybe it was the Darkhold corrupting her, making her just laser focused on finding the kids.
OLSEN: The kids are part of her myth as well. I think that's also part of it. I do think that once you're a mother the loss of your child is more painful than any other loss you could ever experience. That's really why.
*  *  *
Years ago at the Age of Ultron junket there's a great viral clip going around, I'm sure you've seen it, where you are talking about the House of M. Someone's asking you what you'd like to see with Wanda in the future. You're like, "House of M, but Marvel will never do it." I'm curious since you can see the future, what are you hoping that happens to Wanda in the future? Clearly you know what's going to happen.
OLSEN: I don't.
*  *  *
No. I know. I'm teasing.
OLSEN: Someone just said, "Because you're bringing in X-Men, Wanda's a part of the X-Men franchise. Why can't Wanda be there too?" In my mind I'm like, "Yeah. Why can't Wanda be with the X-Men too?"

I have no idea. I don't know what I want. I know I want it to matter. There's no reason to continue to tell these stories unless they're really strong, good stories, and that they're adding something to the entirety of the MCU. I will be there if there's a great idea.

Marvel's Elizabeth Olsen Wants a Rekindled Romance Between Wanda & White Vision
By SPENCER PERRY - May 6, 2022 
https://comicbook.com/marvel/news/marvel-elizabeth-olsen-rekindled-romance-wanda-white-vision/ 

Quote

As fans may recall, the conclusion of Marvel's WandaVision on Disney+ saw the two heroes taking off to different corners of the MCU. Wanda went into the wilderness and began studying the Darkhold while Vision...well, we don't know where he went, but where he is he's the White Vision now. Speaking in an exclusive interview with ComicBook.com, actress Elizabeth Olsen revealed to us she's eager to have the pair reunite and rekindle their romance, replying enthusiastically "Yeah!" when we asked her about it. "I always want to be reunited with Paul Bettany painted faces," Olsen added. "That face is amazing."

Despite this hope and desire, Olsen revealed that she has no idea what the future holds for her in the MCU, saying: "I don't. I don't. I think fans usually have the best ideas and I genuinely don't know where we go from here and what the limitations are of the MCU because I don't follow what their plans are....I feel like the fans always know what the plans are, even when they're not announced. And so I don't. I do have this image... There are a few images in my head of, I think they're from Witch's Row, as she's aging and decaying, while using her power and there's something in that, this older woman, who's aging from her power, that I'm interested in. And I don't really know what that means, but I kind of would love to be old."

How Does Doctor Strange 2 Fare as a WandaVision Sequel? Grade It!
By Matt Webb Mitovich / May 8 2022
https://tvline.com/2022/05/08/doctor-strange-mutliverse-of-madness-review-wandavision-sequel-season-2/  

Quote

I was always of the opinion that while WandaVision’s final act suggested that Wanda was “OK” with letting the sons she had conjured with magic fade away, but that mid-credits scene — which revealed her to be holed away at a remote cabin, obsessively poring over the Darkhold while Billy and Tommy’s voices bleated in the background — made clear that a dark turn was ahead. And Doctor Strange 2, in my opinion, organically followed up on that. Because if we know anything (even from the MCU-adjacent Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.), spending too much time with the Darkhold can drive a person mad.

Now, I will cede the point — made by some critics of Wanda’s role as the Big Bad in Doctor Strange 2 — that she did prove to be ruthlessly kill-y in pursing her agenda, laying waste to many defenders of Kamar-Taj, fixing to do harm to America and… well… doing what she did to the assorted Illuminati members. (Still #TooSoon.) That was big step up from simply mentally imprisoning the people of Westview, N.J.

‘Doctor Strange 2’ Scribe Michael Waldron On “Emotional” ‘Loki’ Season 2, New ‘Star Wars’ Pic, & Kang The Conqueror’s Whereabouts – Hero Nation Podcast
By Anthony D'Alessandro, Dominic Patten   May 6, 2022
https://deadline.com/2022/05/doctor-strange-2-loki-season-2-michael-waldron-podcast-1235018532/ 

Quote

In regards to Kang the Conqueror being MIA from Doctor Strange 2, Waldron says “to me it felt like we had the biggest best bullet in Wanda.”

“When working with Sam (Raimi), I said we should really make the decision to make Wanda the antagonist in this film,” says the scribe, “we can’t let another movie have that fun.”

“If you introduced Kang…you would have risked the movie getting overstuffed,” adds the writer.

ETA: In the above-linked Deadline's Hero Nation podcast, Michael Waldron also said that they had to "close the book" on Stephen Strange's love story with Christine Palmer before they could introduce Clea, but did not confirm or deny that she would be a love interest.

Edited May 9, 2022 by tv echo

[tv echo]

WEEKEND BOX OFFICE RESULTS: DOCTOR STRANGE CONJURES UP A MONSTER DEBUT
by Erik Childress | May 8, 2022
https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/article/weekend-box-office-results-doctor-strange-conjures-up-a-monster-debut/ 

Quote

Marvel & Sam Raimi’s Doctor Strange In The Multiverse of Madness began with $36 million on Thursday, the eighth-highest pre-Friday release total ever. That led to an opening weekend of $185 million, representing the second-highest start during the pandemic behind only Spider-Man: No Way Home. That’s $100 million higher than the first Doctor Strange film for the best opening of 2022 over The Batman’s $134 million start, the ninth-highest Disney opening ever, and the seventh-best Marvel opening ever. Not too shabby, but also not all that unexpected. Its worldwide total is already at $450 million. Only 4 days in, though, the conversation now shifts to how far will it go.

Kevin Feige Connects ‘Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness’ to ‘Loki’ & ‘Spider-Man: No Way Home’
BY MEAGAN DAMORE    MAY 6, 2022
https://www.marvel.com/articles/movies/doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-loki-spider-man-no-way-home-kevin-feige-connects 

Quote

“There’s always a method to the madness, even in the Multiverse,” Feige promised. “For the Marvel.com fans that know that Loki and Sylvie did something at the end of that series that sort of allowed all of this to be possible. He Who Remains is gone, and that allowed a spell to go wrong in Spider-Man: No Way Home, which leads to the entire Multiverse going quite mad in this [Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness].”
*  *  *
“This is absolutely a sequel to the first Doctor Strange, but also to Infinity War and Endgame, also to WandaVision,” Feige added. “That really just let us have an embarrassment of riches, like such an amazing cast and amazing stories – and then Sam Raimi tying it all together.”

Benedict Cumberbatch on Doctor Strange Learning to Relinquish Control and Not 'Hold the Knife'
BY CHRISTINE DINH    MAY 6, 2022
https://www.marvel.com/articles/movies/benedict-cumberbatch-doctor-strange-hold-the-knife-control 

Quote

At a press conference for the film earlier this week, speaking on the shift in his character at the start of the film, Cumberbatch remarked, "He’s quite a maverick; he’s quite an outsider. He doesn’t immediately strike you as a leader despite his prominence in the MCU at this moment. And that's what makes him really interesting and, conflicted, I think as a hero."

"As [director] Sam [Raimi] alluded to — it’s the humanity that keeps people coming back for more, and I think we see in this film an iteration of somebody who we’ve seen be very omnipotent, very creative and sort of omnipresent,” continued Cumberbatch.
*  *  *
What it is that’s fueling, both him as a person, but also within this mysterious realm of sorcery and magic? [Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness] is about examining that and finding his flaws, his faults, his humanity, as well as his strengths, and renewing our understanding of him and deepening our understanding of him. As far as being a leader goes, I would say [it's] more of a self-examination in the way Sam described, of holding up a mirror to him through this incredible narrative structure we have of a Multiverse of other selves, than it is examining what his potential is to lead.”

How much has he changed from the arrogant Strange presented in the first Doctor Strange film? “I will say this: he’s far better at being a collaborator, at working with others, at realizing he can’t always be the one to hold the knife and control all himself,” stated Cumberbatch. “Those are pretty leader-like qualities, I’d say. But, he’s evolving; there’s that.”

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by tv echo

[Shannon L.]

4 hours ago, Dame sans merci said:

Somehow both dull AND over-stuffed, characterisation that was shallow as a puddle, horrible dialogue, a forgettable score, and direction that looked distractingly dated. Welp. 

Funny you should use the word "dated".  There was one sequence that was a montages of pictures fading in and out and my daughter thought it looked like a special effect right out of the 70s, or what you'd see in a high school production (like the opening of Far From Home).

Edited May 9, 2022 by Shannon L.

[VioletWitch]

I definitely think that there were clues of Wanda’s villain turn in WandaVision. She may not have known the extent of the pain she was causing, but she DID know she was keeping people in the hex, and knew it was wrong which is why she put all of the children in the town into a deep sleep. At the end of the show, she drains Agatha of her abilities (valid) but then traps her mind; even after hearing the other townspeople say it made them want to die (not valid). 
 

She also ran off with the Darkhold, which she knew was the Book of the Damned. To me this was a writing  issue with the show refusing to take a greater perspective on Wanda’s actions. 
 

I’m an avid comic book reader, Wanda being my favorite in the comics, and to me it seems the MCU wants to make Wanda their Jean Grey in everything but name, right down to the powers, uniform and the red hair. Wanda in the comics is an earthy, bohemian, sensitive Romani woman and this doesn’t really play in the movies… 
 

[Dame sans merci]

33 minutes ago, Shannon L. said:

Funny you should use the word "dated".  There was one sequence that was a montages of pictures fading in and out and she thought it looked like a special effect right out of the 70s, or what you'd see in a high school production (like the opening of Far From Home).

Was that the scene where Mordo is explaining the dangers of dream-walking to Strange and Chavez? The guy next to me muttered to his companion that it looked like a 'Meatloaf video'. 😆

[tv echo]

Elizabeth Olsen On FUTURE Of Wanda Following 'Doctor Strange' SHOCKING Ending
Access   May 6, 2022

-- When asked if Wanda is really dead and what is her future, EO: "She could never go away, I don't think, especially with the multiverse. But I don't know... I think she's aware of what she's done... But no, I don't think she's gone. Not like I know any other reason why she wouldn't be. Maybe Kevin's sitting there and he's like, she's crazy... But I think there's more to be had with her."

Edited May 9, 2022 by tv echo

[Spartan Girl]

36 minutes ago, VioletWitch said:

I definitely think that there were clues of Wanda’s villain turn in WandaVision. She may not have known the extent of the pain she was causing, but she DID know she was keeping people in the hex, and knew it was wrong which is why she put all of the children in the town into a deep sleep. At the end of the show, she drains Agatha of her abilities (valid) but then traps her mind; even after hearing the other townspeople say it made them want to die (not valid).

Yeah, I’m not shedding any tears for Agatha, who did plenty of horrible things, including kill Sparky.

37 minutes ago, VioletWitch said:

I’m an avid comic book reader, Wanda being my favorite in the comics, and to me it seems the MCU wants to make Wanda their Jean Grey in everything but name, right down to the powers, uniform and the red hair. Wanda in the comics is an earthy, bohemian, sensitive Romani woman and this doesn’t really play in the movies… 

The MCU really seems to think the female characters are all interchangeable. Case in point: siphoning off Sharon Carter’s attributes to Natasha and Peggy (maybe even Yelena) and casting her off as a villain because they don’t know what else to do with her. Considering how both X-Men franchises royally fucked up Jean Grey’s character arc, this doesn’t make me any more hopeful for Wanda.

[VioletWitch]

26 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Yeah, I’m not shedding any tears for Agatha, who did plenty of horrible things, including kill Sparky.

The MCU really seems to think the female characters are all interchangeable. Case in point: siphoning off Sharon Carter’s attributes to Natasha and Peggy (maybe even Yelena) and casting her off as a villain because they don’t know what else to do with her. Considering how both X-Men franchises royally fucked up Jean Grey’s character arc, this doesn’t make me any more hopeful for Wanda.

I’m not saying Agatha is innocent, it was made pretty apparent that she’s been living so long because she’s killed other witches,  but I think being forced to give up your agency/body autonomy isn’t really fair in any situation. Especially since the last episode was basically saying “torturing and mind controlling people is wrong”

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, VioletWitch said:

I’m an avid comic book reader, Wanda being my favorite in the comics, and to me it seems the MCU wants to make Wanda their Jean Grey in everything but name, right down to the powers, uniform and the red hair. Wanda in the comics is an earthy, bohemian, sensitive Romani woman and this doesn’t really play in the movies… 

It's funny you say that because I walked out of the theater going..OK so the MCU just did the Dark Phoenix Saga with Wanda...great maybe now we can avoid it in the X-Movies 😃

[Enigma X]

I guess my upper-middle tier ranking of this movie is still higher than most of you felt for it. Honestly, my biggest problem was Sam Raimi's horror angle. It is not the whole genre of horror that bugs but campy horror. I am more into mind twisters that can be considered horror and thought the Evil Dead was campy. In some places, this movie felt campy. 

The actors did a fantastic job, and I have no huge issue with Wanda being a villain. I would have rather had that written a bit better, but alas. Also, the Illuminati seemed a bit dumb and did not convince me that Reed Richards was the smartest man alive in any universe.

[Jenniferbug]

I did not like this. It had some moments that I liked but they weren't enough to make up for all that I didn't.

I think it's a given that we're going to get Billy and Tommy in the MCU as Young Avengers, probably within the next few years. So making Wanda into a mass killing machine, completely disconnected from the reality of her actions, AFTER all she went through in WandaVision seems like poor plotting. And yes, I know the Darkhold corrupts people, but I don't think this movie did that element justice so walking the character back now is near impossible. 

If they wanted Wanda to be the villain, I think using an alternate Wanda would have been the better move. She could have been acting on her own, and our Wanda ends up tempted to join her because she understands her pain and grief. Or maybe she's dreamwalking our Wanda, who isn't really resisting because again, pain and grief at losing her children. End result leaves our Wanda a viable character either way and doesn't undo the arc from WandaVision. 

Also Strange telling her multiple times her children never existed didn't sit well with me. It's not that he was entirely wrong, but it was incredibly dismissive and I've had friends who have experienced loss via miscarriage who heard the same thing and it gutted them when some idiot would say that to them. 

I agree with those of you who said it was really campy at moments. I don't like horror, but some of the shots and directing just felt really cheesy and campy. Some of Danny Elfman's Beetlejuice-esque music cues really took me out of the movie too. Also I may be alone in this, but I thought Clea at the end looked cheesy too, like a reject from a live action Jem movie. No thanks, I'd rather have Rachel McAdams' Christine back if we really need Dr Strange to have a love interest (yes, I know his love interest was Clea in the comics. I just don't care about her). 

I liked America Chavez. It was amazing to see Patrick Stewart again, especially styled as the Professor X from the animated series. I loved John Krasinski as Reed and am really hoping that means he'll be Reed going forward. Maria as Captain Marvel was also cool. I even thought the nod to Black Bolt from the Inhumans series was nice. 

I don't know. Those few good moments just weren't enough to outweigh everything I didn't like in this movie. 

[Shannon L.]

2 hours ago, Dame sans merci said:

Was that the scene where Mordo is explaining the dangers of dream-walking to Strange and Chavez? The guy next to me muttered to his companion that it looked like a 'Meatloaf video'. 😆

I don't recall.  The "she" in the comment was my daughter (I was thinking "daughter" and typed "she").  I'll ask her if she remembers when I see her. 

[tennisgurl]

I have mixed feelings about this one honestly, I might need to watch it again. There was a lot that I really enjoyed here and a lot that I feel could have been better, and some of that might have been my high standards and for MCU properties so it could be unfair for me to put high expectation on this, but I left wishing that this was better. Probably not helped by the last super hyped Marvel multiverse movie, the recent Spider-Man, which not only lived up to my expectation, it exceeded them. 

I read that Sam Raimi never watched WandaVision and it really shows. Not only is it weird that Wanda only mentions Vision once or twice and never bothers to look for a universe where the two of them are raising the boys, just focusing on her kids, but they basically had the same plot, just less interesting here. I can accept Wanda as the movies main villain, even if I don't really like it, but it felt like she just totally forgot the lesson she learned by the end of WandaVision, that she cant let her grief and trauma rule her, and I just don't buy Wanda doing the things that she did. Sure the Darkhold was influencing her, but she was still trying to murder a child, killed tons of people defending said child, and was willing to kill an innocent version of even herself for selfish versions. I just don't see Wanda, who was heartbroken about killing people by accident in Civil War and only hurt people in Westview more or less by accident, would suddenly become this murderous horror movie monster. This is a fear that I had as soon as I heard Raimi was directing, his strengths are mixing camp with horror in interesting ways, but he has always struggled with characterization. Even in Spider-Man, a series that I truly enjoy, the characterization for Peter and MJ were some of its weakest points, especially in the first and third instalments. Whereas one of the MCU's greatest strengths has always been its strong character work, and Wanda is one of their most complex characters, so with Raimi at the helm he sort of put her more interesting characterization and development and reduced her to one of his campy supervillains until the end, which is really a shame. From what I have read it sounds like Elizabeth Olsen is open to playing Wanda again, and I really hope she does. She did at least finally realize the gravity of what she did at the end and sacrificed herself to end the madness, but I would like to see her emerge as a hero again. Although after that movie and everything she did, its going to be hard going forward with her as a hero, she would have a lot to make up for. 

On the other hand, I thought they did do a good job with Dr. Strange as a character, even if I always find his love for Christine to be more told than shown considering we never really get to see them together, she's basically always the one that got away, but I guess that's the point. The greater issue for Steven seems to be his loneliness and how he constantly pushes people away out of arrogance or due to the weight of his power and choices. I really like that they explored how much weight he carried over the choice he made in Infinity War, that letting half the universes population die for five years and ending with the death of Tony was not something easy for him, even if it really was their only option. Its been very isolating for him and has caused him to struggle with connecting with people, and its apparently been an issue for him for most of his life, first pushing them away in grief, then arrogance, and finally in how he feels like he needs to take the load of making the hard choices. I think that it was unfair of people to be quite so judgmental of a lot of what he has done, especially the Illuminati, but it is in character for him to feel like he is the only person who can handle things, so him trusting in America was a big step for him. I also thought that America was a lot of fun and I am excited to see her future in the MCU, you know that she is going to be a major character going forward. I liked her backstory and I am interested in seeing more of it and I am glad that they went with her crazy parallel hopping origins instead of giving her a more mundane backstory like I thought they might. She and Steven had great chemistry and I liked seeing their bond throughout the movie, both learning to trust each other.

The MCU is clearly in a transitional period, especially when it comes to their new characters. Its obvious that they are setting up the next generation of MCU heroes, especially by giving a lot of their established characters younger counterparts for the older generation to mentor. Obviously this started with Spider-Man, but we have also had Yelena, Kate Bishop, now America, they are both looking at their future stars and experimenting more with tone and style. This was hyped as the MCU's first horror movie, and it certainly shows. Its very goory for an MCU movie, a lot of surprisingly bloody deaths and very strong horror movie vibes, especially with Wanda and the final Strange in his haunted house, it did certainly make it feel different than a lot of MCU movies. I admit that I wanted to explore more of the multiverse, both in meeting some more versions of different characters and just to get to explore new worlds, but it did certainly give me the promised madness. 

The Illuminati cameos were fun, even if they were really overhyped by the advertising. They basically existed for some fanservice and to be easily dispatched to show how powerful Wanda is and for shock value, which is too bad. I felt like Raimi was fucking with us a bit for the sake of black comedy, that we got those big hyped up cameos that the fans wanted only for him to kill them off in bloody and darkly ironic ways. Not sure how I feel about that, but when they hired a guy known for dark bloody comedy, they knew what they were getting. John Krasinski as Reed Richards really did turn out to be solid casting and I would love to meet his MCU counterpart who actually gets to do things, and I was thrilled to finally see Patrick Stewart himself playing a variation of Professor X. He definitely got the best treatment of the cameos, even getting to quote his "Just because someone stumbles and loses their way, doesn't mean they are lost forever" line from Days of Future Past, and was the only person not totally down to execute a person from something another version of them did. Patrick Stewart as Professor X remains one of the best castings in comic book adaptation, its awesome to finally get to see him here, even if it was just for a few scenes. 

The performances were excellent across the board, but Elizabeth Olsen was the clear standout. Whatever issues I have with the writing for Wanda, her performance was amazing, she is an absolute superstar. Her expression as she saw versions of her boys screaming in terror of her, where you can see what she has done really hitting her, was absolutely brutal, you could see it all washing over her in just her eyes. A lot of the weakness in her writing really was helped by her performance, going from terrifying to heartbreaking.

While there really was a lot to like here, I left this feeling let down. I wanted this to be so much more than it was, and while I certainly liked a lot of it and admired some of the risks it took, this is going to end up lower down my list of MCU films. Certainly not the very bottom by Iron Man 2 or Thor 2, but its certainly not going to be near the top the way I wanted it to be. I just need to chew on it.

Edited May 10, 2022 by tennisgurl

[Enigma X]

I did like the Illuminati lineup. I just wish that they were smarter.

Years ago, when Krasinski was rumored to be connected to Reed Richards, I did not see it. About a year ago, I saw it. I can still see it going forward. I may be one of the few who wants the Inhumans in the MCU. Although that series sucked, I am glad that Inhumans are now canon (somewhere) in the MCU.

[Lantern7]

Saw it, liked it, totally get the criticisms. I'll elaborate later. One question: how messed up was it to release this movie on Mother's Day weekend?

Anson Mount playing Black Bolt again is kind of like Casper Crump returning as Vandal Savage in Legends of Tomorrow, only sadder. Related opinion: I'd totally want Lockjaw back.

[Shannon L.]

5 hours ago, Dame sans merci said:

Was that the scene where Mordo is explaining the dangers of dream-walking to Strange and Chavez? The guy next to me muttered to his companion that it looked like a 'Meatloaf video'. 😆

I just spoke with her and yes, that's the scene. 

@Lantern7 one of the first things I said to my family was we were leaving the theater was "Happy Mother's Day."   I mean, yikes.

 

@tennisgurl wouldn't having watched or not watched Wandavision be a problem for the writers more than the director?  I mean, yes, Sam could have benefited from watching it, too, but the script and dialogue was a big problem, imo.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Shannon L.

[Proclone]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I have mixed feelings about this one honestly, I might need to watch it again. There was a lot that I really enjoyed here and a lot that I feel could have been better, and some of that might have been my high standards and for MCU properties so it could be unfair for me to put high expectation on this, but I left wishing that this was better. Probably not helped by the last super hyped Marvel multiverse movie, the recent Spider-Man, which not only lived up to my expectation, it exceeded them. 

I read that Sam Raimi never watched WandaVision and it really shows. Not only is it weird that Wanda only mentions Vision once or twice and never bothers to look for a universe where the two of them are raising the boys, just focusing on her kids, but they basically had the same plot, just less interesting here. I can accept Wanda as the movies main villain, even if I don't really like it, but it felt like she just totally forgot the lesson she learned by the end of WandaVision, that she cant let her grief and trauma rule her, and I just don't buy Wanda doing the things that she did. Sure the Darkhold was influencing her, but she was still trying to murder a child, killed tons of people defending said child, and was willing to kill an innocent version of even herself for selfish versions. I just don't see Wanda, who was heartbroken about killing people by accident in Civil War and only hurt people in Westview more or less by accident, would suddenly become this murderous horror movie monster. This is a fear that I had as soon as I heard Raimi was directing, his strengths are mixing camp with horror in interesting ways, but he has always struggled with characterization. Even in Spider-Man, a series that I truly enjoy, the characterization for Peter and MJ were some of its weakest points, especially in the first and third instalments. Whereas one of the MCU's greatest strengths has always been its strong character work, and Wanda is one of their most complex characters, so with Raimi at the helm he sort of put her more interesting characterization and development and reduced her to one of his campy supervillains until the end, which is really a shame. From what I have read it sounds like Elizabeth Olsen is open to playing Wanda again, and I really hope she does. She did at least finally realize the gravity of what she did at the end and sacrificed herself to end the madness, but I would like to see her emerge as a hero again. Although after that movie and everything she did, its going to be hard going forward with her as a hero, she would have a lot to make up for. 

The performances were excellent across the board, but Elizabeth Olsen was the clear standout. Whatever issues I have with the writing for Wanda, her performance was amazing, she is an absolute superstar. Her expression as she saw versions of her boys screaming in terror of her, where you can see what she has done really hitting her, was absolutely brutal, you could see it all washing over her in just her eyes. A lot of the weakness in her writing really was helped by her performance, going from terrifying to heartbreaking.

While there really was a lot to like here, it left this feeling let down. I wanted this to be so much more than it was, and while I certainly liked a lot of it and admired some of the risks it took, this is going to end up lower down my list of MCU films. Certainly not the very bottom by Iron Man 2 or Thor 2, but its certainly not going to be near the top the way I wanted it to be. I just need to chew on it.

I agree with all of this.  And I'm not surprised to hear Raimi didn't watch WandaVision.  This movie felt like those in charge had only read a summary of the series and not actually seen it.

I don't want to make the MCU something way deeper than it actually is.  It's not Shakespeare, but then again in his day Shakespeare wasn't Shakespeare either.  He was entertainment for the masses too. Being entertainment for the masses doesn't mean it's not saying something (which is why often resent snooty people in the film industry automatically dismissing the MCU or other superhero movies, not all of them are good, but they aren't mutually exclusive with good or meaningful).

In any case, as someone who's experienced probably more than their fair share of grief, I found WandaVision to be a fairly moving treatise on the nature of grief.  How it often effects and even hurts those around us. How it makes us retreat from the world. How it often causes us to over romanticize the ones we've lost..."What is grief, if not love preserving?" Is a pretty epic line.  The show is about how it's okay to grieve, you just have to try and find healthy ways of doing.  I thought WandaVision was the perfect example of why I like, scifi, fantasy and superhero movies.  It took and experience that most people have, grief, and used the tropes of genre to explore that experience in a heightened way.  And strangely enough that heightened reality allows people to see their own experiences with something like grief in Wanda's experience...even though I hope no one out there is enslaving any towns.

At this point there's a lot of material in the MCU.  I'm not saying every filmmaker that's involved going forward should have to watch every single thing the MCU puts out.  But I think when you plan to make a certain character your villain and they already have a series about them, you should be required to watch that.  Then maybe you'd realize the motivations you're giving them have been explored over that series and that you're just going to do a crappy abridged version of the arc they already had...which might leave those that have seen the show frustrated that they had to watch the character learn the same lesson twice...Then maybe you can tweak the storyline to make it much more stratifying for viewers...

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Proclone

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, Shannon L. said:

@tennisgurl wouldn't having watched or not watched Wandavision be a problem for the writers more than the director?  I mean, yes, Sam could have benefited from watching it, too, but the script and dialogue was a big problem, imo.

I read a few articles about how much WandaVision played a part in the writing for this movie, apparently Sam Raimi and the writers were already about halfway through their rough drafts for the movie and Sam already had a pretty strong idea of where he wanted the movie to go before he ever even knew WandaVision existed, which seems like a pretty big oversight from everyone involved. Shouldn't Sam Raimi have looked into what was going on in the rest of the MCU and with these particular characters before he started planning what would happen to them in this movie? Or the producers? Or anyone from Marvel who should have been checking in? It sounds like they heard about the show halfway through scripting and then were told they would need to watch the show to continue Wanda's story, but only watched a few scenes, which really does explain a lot. No wonder Vision was hardly mentioned, they probably never saw any of the big scenes between them, just the ones with the kids! It baffles me that they never watched a show that is all about one of their main characters, its not even like they're required to watch every Marvel property, its one nine episode show. I cant tell for certain who is most at fault here, and the writers could have done a much better job with Wanda, but it sounds like this was Sam's creative vision, he was in the drivers seat, so I still lay a lot of the blame on him. Just seeing a cliff notes version of your main villains motivations when its supposed to be what is driving the whole movie just seems so lazy.

3 hours ago, Enigma X said:

I may be one of the few who wants the Inhumans in the MCU. Although that series sucked, I am glad that Inhumans are now canon (somewhere) in the MCU.

I'm glad that Anson Mount got another chance to play Black Bolt, even if it was for a minor role that feels like something of a consolation prize for his show being such a dumpster fire. The Inhumans show absolutely sucked, but I thought he was well cast and it seemed like he really cared about the character, its not his fault that the writers, show runners, and powers that be ran that show into the ground before it could even get started. 

Edited May 9, 2022 by tennisgurl

[supposebly]

2 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

No wonder Vision was hardly mentioned, they probably never saw any of the big scenes between them, just the ones with the kids! It baffles me that they never watched a show that is all about one of their main characters, its not even like they're required to watch every Marvel property, its one nine episode show.

Is  Spoiler for Age of Ultron

Spoiler

the death of her brother

ever mentioned?

If this movie is about grief, shouldn't that be included as well?

[Sakura12]

For me if Rami wanted to use the Darkhold excuse, he should've gone deeper in explaining it. Not just have characters mention things about it throughout the movie. Explain the Darkhold, how it was forged and what it does to the user. We should've seen it corrupting Wanda. Even if it was her own voice in her head telling her or showing her things. Show me why she all of sudden would start murdering her way through everyone to get to her kids. 

I don't often say this but this movie could benefited with a little bit longer runtime.

[revbfc]

I just saw the movie, and I would like to repeat something I said in  the thread for the finale of WandaVision:

Agatha Harkness did nothing wrong.

[Raja]

19 minutes ago, revbfc said:

I just saw the movie, and I would like to repeat something I said in  the thread for the finale of WandaVision:

Agatha Harkness did nothing wrong.

One interesting thing about WandaVision where they stacked the deck by 

Spoiler

Wanda and Pietro being described as radicals voluntering for Hydra, not for Sokovia with their unit being infiltrated by Hydra.  I had always assumed that they were   Hydra dupes thinking they were local soldiers

I agree Agatha is the classic antihero, but the tactics of the antihero is what makes them wrong

Edited May 9, 2022 by Raja

[Sakura12]

37 minutes ago, revbfc said:

I just saw the movie, and I would like to repeat something I said in  the thread for the finale of WandaVision:

Agatha Harkness did nothing wrong.

If we look at it from the pov of the residents of Westview, Agatha actually saved them. She's the one that released them from Wanda's spell first then got Wanda to realize what she was she doing. Then tried to stop her by taking her power away. Agatha got punished by being trapped in her own mind while Wanda walked away to cause even more damage later. I'm sure they don't think much of Sword. 

[arc]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I read a few articles about how much WandaVision played a part in the writing for this movie, apparently Sam Raimi and the writers were already about halfway through their rough drafts for the movie and Sam already had a pretty strong idea of where he wanted the movie to go before he ever even knew WandaVision existed, which seems like a pretty big oversight from everyone involved.

Before Covid upended everything, MoM* would have been released before Wandavision. (And No Way Home.) Presumably changes were made to the story to fit, but it is a little awkward,

* I just finally noticed that the acronym is “mom”, for a story about Wanda as a mother (sorta), in a movie released on Mother’s Day weekend.

[tv echo]

In this GMA interview, when EO was asked when Wanda would get her own movie and what would be her dream storyline for Wanda, EO: "There is no plan. And I’m serious. I’m not a good liar. I wish I had a plan. And I’m not sure. I really am excited for fans to see this film because it is something very different from what they’ve seen, and I’m really curious to hear what they want after, because I think it is a very surprising film." When asked if she was open to the idea, EO: "I'm open, as long as the story's good." Also, when asked if she was appearing in the Agatha Harkness spinoff, EO: "I'm not appearing in it... Again, as far as I'm aware"...

Elizabeth Olsen talks ‘Doctor Strange’ l GMA
Good Morning America   May 5, 2022

Another promo...

Marvel Studios’ Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness | Exhilarating
Marvel Entertainment   May 9, 2022

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by tv echo

[Lantern7]

In case you didn't see it, Benedict hosted Saturday Night Live this past weekend. Here's a sketch with him and a surprise appearance.

I don't have Disney+ and I never saw WandaVision. Does that mean I didn't get the full hurt from having Wanda being the unhinged antagonist?

I didn't even notice Bruce Campbell was the pizza ball guy until after the credits. And I call myself a nerd.

Anyone else wonder who'd win in a fight between mid-credits stingers? In this case, Clea vs. Eros/Starfox.

One good thing: at least we have Love & Thunder to anticipate. I'm thinking the first trailer was lighthearted to offset the downer themes of DSITMOM.

[Hiyo]

Quote

I just finally noticed that the acronym is “mom”

Wouldn't the acronym actually be DSITMOM?

[rmontro]

Saw the movie today.  Didn't have a problem with Wanda's actions because she had been corrupted by the Darkhold.  But for those who have seen it, I have a question:

Spoiler

At the end of the movie, what does Wanda the mother say to Wanda the Scarlett Witch?  I couldn't quite catch it.

 

[Morrigan2575]

47 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Saw the movie today.  Didn't have a problem with Wanda's actions because she had been corrupted by the Darkhold.  But for those who have seen it, I have a question:

  Hide contents

At the end of the movie, what does Wanda the mother say to Wanda the Scarlett Witch?  I couldn't quite catch it.

 

Know that they are loved

[Shannon L.]

48 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Saw the movie today.  Didn't have a problem with Wanda's actions because she had been corrupted by the Darkhold.  But for those who have seen it, I have a question:

  Hide contents

At the end of the movie, what does Wanda the mother say to Wanda the Scarlett Witch?  I couldn't quite catch it.

 

She says "They will be loved." 

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Know that they are loved

 

1 hour ago, Shannon L. said:

She says "They will be loved." 

Thanks, guys.

[scarynikki12]

That was a nice moment between the Wandas. Mom Wanda had been possessed and forced to do horrible things and would have been justified to shout at Scarlet Witch Wanda to leave them alone and turn her back. But she showed compassion instead which speaks to the strength of her character. And Lizzie nailed that scene too. 

[Lantern7]

Anyone else think that the original plan for Wanda to perish was by dropping a house on her?

One happy note: Wong lived. I know his canon is second-tier, but it's good to have him stick around as Sorcerer Supreme. Does the MCU still do short vignettes? I could see Wong starring in one of those.

22 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Wouldn't the acronym actually be DSITMOM?

Pet peeve: if the initials don't spell a word, it's not an acronym.

[Raja]

41 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Anyone else think that the original plan for Wanda to perish was by dropping a house on her?

One happy note: Wong lived. I know his canon is second-tier, but it's good to have him stick around as Sorcerer Supreme. Does the MCU still do short vignettes? I could see Wong starring in one of those.

Pet peeve: if the initials don't spell a word, it's not an acronym.

The last One Shots were before the third Thor to get us ready for the change of direction. The One Shots along with the newscast with Leslie Bibb reprising her Ironman role,, are gone.

[tv echo]

Michael Waldron said that whether or not Wanda is dead is "up for interpretation" (in the Variety interview below). He also said that Wanda's breaking bad was true to her comics version and where Wanda was always headed in the MCU (in the Rolling Stone interview below). He also said that the Darkhold "got its hooks" into Wanda (in the Gizmodo interview below)...

‘Doctor Strange 2’ Screenwriter Defends Wanda’s Evolution, Talks Cameos and His ‘Star Wars’ Script
By Adam B. Vary    May 10, 2022
https://variety.com/2022/film/news/doctor-strange-2-spoilers-scarlet-witch-cameos-1235263318/ 

Quote

In an interview with Variety, Waldron says he understands why some fans have been thrown by Wanda’s violent plummet into the dark side. But he stands by it, pointing to the Darkhold — the book of evil magic Wanda received from Agatha Harkness (Kathryn Hahn) in “WandaVision” — and Wanda’s unresolved grief as the catalysts for her behavior. He also talks about how Marvel Studios chief Kevin Feige helped to drive casting the Illuminati, why Namor (aka the Sub-Mariner) wasn’t among them, and how the “Star Wars” movie he’s writing for Feige has light-years of difference from “Multiverse of Madness.”
*  *  *
When did you know that Wanda was going to be the villain of this movie?
Sam and I came on in February of 2020. And initially, we were inheriting what the prior administration had been doing. And then COVID happened and our start date pushed six months. So he and I had the opportunity to essentially start over and say, “What do we want this movie to be?” And the foundational building block of starting over was Wanda should be the villain the whole way through. This should be a story of Doctor Strange protecting America Chavez from Wanda. So it was there from the very beginning, really, in what is the ultimate version.

It sounds like there was a version where Wanda wasn’t the initial villain?
Well, there was the version where she was more of — and I even did an earlier draft where she was more a member of the ensemble and turned bad by the end. And it always felt to me like it was just hedging. There was never a way to service her fall from grace properly as a supporting character in the movie because there had to be a separate antagonist. And it also felt like we were leaving the biggest bit of fun on the table for somebody else. And, truth be told, having watched and experienced and studied “WandaVision,” I felt like she was at the point, in possession of the Darkhold, where she was ready to break bad. She had reached that point that she reaches in comics, and that we could believably pull it off.

How tricky was it to connect what happened in “WandaVision” to that breaking bad point in “Multiverse of Madness”? I’m sure you’ve seen how some fans are having a hard time believing she’d go evil so quickly — did you ever wish a bit that “WandaVision” had ended underlining more clearly that Wanda was heading to a dark place?
No, I don’t wish “WandaVision” had done anything differently. I wouldn’t change a thing about what they did. My interpretation of “WandaVision” is that she confronts her grief and she lets go of the people she has under her control, but I don’t think she necessarily resolves her grief in that show, and I don’t think she resolves her anger. Maybe she’s able to say goodbye to Vision, but I think she’s really just fallen in love with those kids. I think that all of those hanging threads are the things that the Darkhold preys on when she gets the Darkhold from Agatha. You see in the final scene of “WandaVision,” that tag — the mistake that our Wanda makes is she opens the Darkhold. She starts reading, and I think it preys on her desire to have those children and have them for real this time. So yeah, that was how I arrived there. It made sense to me and it made sense to our teams because we built the story.

So is Wanda of Earth-616 dead now? What was that flash of red light at the end?
I think that’s up for interpretation. She made some kind of sacrificial act that destroyed the Darkhold in every universe, which is protecting Wanda in every universe from being seduced by the Darkhold. Whether she’s dead or not remains to be seen. I know what it’s like to love characters and to not want them to be gone and to hate when they do bad things. But that’s that’s part of the fun of watching stuff and getting swept up in it.
*  *  *
Mephisto has been a head canon MCU villain for over a year now. Was he ever in play for this movie in any way?
No. Only in jokes. Only in bits I did in the writers room and in text messages I sent to [“WandaVision” head writer] Jac Schaeffer. Mephisto was never in play for us.

How does bringing the Illuminati into this movie work? Do you go to Kevin Feige and say, “I want to bring Patrick Stewart and Anson Mount back? Can we do that?”
That’s kind of a combination of us putting forth, “Well, what if we did this?” But also, Kevin’s as excited about this stuff as we are, so sometimes those ideas are coming from Kevin saying, “Well, what if we got so and so? I’m gonna do it! I’m gonna make the call!” So he’s as excited about all that stuff as any of us. It’s a big, geeky team effort to see what we can assemble for that team.

Where did you draw from to build this version of Professor X? The Fox movies or the comics and the animated series from the 1990s?
A little bit of both. I don’t know if I’m technically supposed to get into specifics about these actors or characters, but I worked with that performer to even talk about making it different, so it was a different version of him. He uses a line from “Days of Future Past” that he says to Stephen. But also, we drew from the classic cartoon version of that character. He’s a variant who has qualities of a bunch of different versions of those guys from across the multiverse.

Was Namor ever a possibility?
[We] talked about him, because he’s certainly an original member of the Illuminati. But I think Marvel has other plans for him in the MCU. And so he didn’t make his way in this particular movie.

I’m sure you’re aware that fans have been clamoring for John Krasinski to play Reed Richards. How involved were you in casting him in that part?
I’m not involved in the casting, but as with all of these performers, I worked really closely with him in bringing that character to life with him and Sam. And especially on that one, because that was the one character that had no real precedent ever in the MCU, at least. Figuring out how we want this guy to be — that was a lot of fun. That particular character is certainly one of my favorite comic book characters.

Do you expect Krasinski will return for the “Fantastic Four” movie?
It’s a question for somebody else.

Well, I’ll ask this: Was Wanda always suppose to kill all of the Illuminati?
Yeah, that was there in my first draft of the script. That was the madness of the multiverse to me, really. You introduced this superhero team that makes the audience feel like they’re finally safe, and then the Scarlet Witch eviscerates them. It was a great way to knock the audience off their feet. And then hopefully, you spend the rest of the movie terrified of Wanda and what she’s capable of.
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You were instrumental in creating the Disney+ series “Loki” and establishing the multiverse as a force within the MCU. Did you ever look at connecting that show with this film in any way?
If it had been necessary, I think we would have. But as it was, it felt, even to me, like we were just reaching. Nothing would have made me happier than to get to write dialogue for Tom or Owen or Sophia. But it felt like this was a story happening separate of that TVA purview. And that might have complicated things. You know, this movie was already handling a lot, and that might have just confused things even further. So I think we were okay without it.

‘Multiverse of Madness’ Screenwriter Wanted Tom Cruise to Play An Alternate Iron Man
By BRIAN HIATT   MAY 9, 2022
https://www.rollingstone.com/movies/movie-features/tom-cruise-iron-man-multiverse-of-madness-illuminati-spoiler-interview-1350702/ 

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My favorite part of this movie was when you introduce the alternate-Earth heroes of the Illuminati — and then promptly have Wanda slaughter them, which freaked out some fans. Where did that idea come from?
Yeah, that’s a blast. That’s probably my favorite sequence in the movie. The idea for that was not in my outline; I was writing the first draft and I guess I felt like, as I put it, the movie needed to get drunk. It felt like we’re at the point where I need to find the madness in the multiverse here. I had no idea:  Would I be able to use these characters? Would this even be possible? But I knew with Sam [Raimi] that if we did it this way, it would be amazing. And so I wrote it in.

I was watching Aliens a lot as I was writing. Because just tonally this movie is a thriller and a [feature-length] chase. I just love how Aliens goes to great lengths to tell you how badass the space Marines are — and then they just get slaughtered. Then you are really scared of the Xenomorphs for the rest of that movie, and that’s what I wanted to accomplish with Wanda. At the end of that Illuminati sequence. I hope you were truly terrified of the Scarlet Witch. It’s been awesome being in the theater hearing the cheers, then the gasps and the groans. [Laughs]  I mean, you know, people were feeling something at the movies. That’s good!

What was your thinking behind having Wanda Maximoff become a full-in villain in this movie, especially since it’s a bit of a change in course from WandaVision?
Well, first off, it’s true to who the comics’ version of the character is and what she does in the comics. It was always where Wanda was headed in the MCU, even as I inherited the movie. The question just became, when would it happen? Certainly, there was a version of this movie where Wanda was part of the ensemble that ended, I guess, with her turning bad, and then she could have been an antagonist of another movie. But I feel like in that case, you would have had a watered-down version of Wanda going bad because it’s still Dr. Strange’s movie. She wouldn’t be the protagonist, and she wouldn’t really be the antagonist. You’d have to have a [different] antagonist throughout the entirety of most of the film.

You know, she’s doing bad stuff throughout WandaVision. She does make the heroic choice to let go of all those people. But it’s also revealed to her that the family she’s built is not real. Then she gets the Darkhold at the end of the series and learns that there is a real version of her children out there. And if you’ve got the Book of the Damned whispering in your ear long enough that your kids are out there and you could go get ’em, maybe that can push you to do some terrible things.
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Fans were totally right about Patrick Stewart appearing as an alternate Professor X, but totally wrong about Tom Cruise — who had once been slated to star as Iron Man years before Robert Downey Jr.  — showing up as an alternate Iron Man. Did the fans just totally make up the Tom Cruise thing?
Yeah, that was totally made up. I mean, there’s no cut footage of Tom Cruise!  But I love Tom Cruise, and I said to [Marvel Studios president] Kevin [Feige]  at one point, I was like, Could we get Tom Cruise’s Iron Man? I remember reading about that in Ain’t It Cool News back in the day, that Tom Cruise was going to be Iron Man. 
*  *  *
So what did Kevin say when you asked him that?
Well, I mean, he was shooting Mission Impossible 7 and 8.  

So to be totally clear, did anyone reach out to Tom Cruise?
I don’t believe so. I just don’t think it was ever an option, because of availability.

Here’s a very geeky question for you. Quentin Beck [Jake Gyllenhaal] in Spider-Man: Far From Home says that the main MCU Earth is known as Earth-616. It turned out he was lying about the multiverse and wasn’t really from another universe. But in this movie, that’s presented as the correct dimensional designation. Can you explain? And if not, I may have an out for you…
Yeah, let me know!  [Laughs] I guess it begs the question, What did Quentin know? He was a smart guy. Um, is it just a coincidence? That’s… I don’t know. But what’s your out?
*  *  *
How did you decide on the sort of semi-cliffhanger ending of Dr. Strange developing a third eye in the middle of his forehead and dropping to his knees in agony?
I felt like we had a happy ending. We were like, like, “Gee, you know, for a movie where a lot of bad shit happens, we got kind of a happy ending here.” We really wrapped it up and that didn’t quite seem right. We kept thinking about what Mordo warned Strange in the first movie: “The bill comes due.” It’s like Wong says, “You possessed your own corpse.” Like, is this guy ever going to face any consequences? And it just felt like a great nod to horror movies where there’s that final twist.

Doctor Strange 2's Writer Breaks Down the Movie's Biggest Spoilers
By Germain Lussier      May 10, 2022
https://gizmodo.com/doctor-strange-2-spoilers-interview-marvel-mordo-wanda-1848906359 

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io9: Yeah, absolutely. Now, one thread from the original film that this doesn’t really touch on is Mordo on 616. Where is he? And was he ever a part of this?
Waldron: We talked about him. He’s out there. There were discussions about what to do with his story. But ultimately, it felt like, in a movie that frankly had a lot going on already, maybe that was a story best left for another day with he and Doctor Strange.
*  *  *
io9: Speaking of that, incursions are also our window to the introduction of Clea, played by Charlize Theron. Tell me about how and when that idea got put into place as the end credits scene.
Waldron: We knew that we wanted to introduce Clea. She’s Strange’s great love in the comics and it was felt to me like Strange wasn’t at the point at the start of our movie where he was ready to meet the love of his life. It felt like we had to close the loop with he and Christine Palmer. And so after she gives him her wisdom to not be afraid of loving someone, then it felt like we were right to tease what could be eventually with he and Clea.
*  *  *
io9: Very cool. Now, last thing, talk about tracking Wanda’s arc from WandaVision to this. Obviously, she definitely makes the choice to be the Scarlet Witch at the end of that but I feel like audiences are probably surprised that she becomes a full-on villain here. So tell me a little bit about making sure that that tracked all the way through.
Waldron: Yeah. I mean, it’s an accelerated descent into madness for her, but one that felt earned by the fact that she walked away from WandaVision with the Darkhold and the knowledge that she was the Scarlet Witch. The last scene of that show, their tag, is her reading the Darkhold and hearing the voices of her children. I think [in] this movie the Darkhold has got its hooks into her and really what it’s preying on and is maybe even less than her grief but her anger. Residual anger from all the trauma that she’s faced in her life. And I also think Wanda makes good points in this movie. That all these heroes are hypocrites. Stephen and these guys break the rules and they’re their heroes. She does it and she’s a villain. That doesn’t seem fair. And they push her to her breaking point and you see what happens.

Edited May 11, 2022 by tv echo

[tv echo]

(source)

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Marvel Entertainment   May 10, 2022