S08.E21: Nachalo

[paigow]

AIRING JUN 16, 2021

DVR Alert: New day and time - Wed 10pm

When Reddington takes Liz to the mysterious epicenter of his empire, their shared past reveals itself and long-buried secrets are divulged.

*******************************

Dial N for Nachalo

[milkyaqua]

Secrets revealed...yeah, right.  When pigs fly...  Bokenkamp is trolling.

[edhopper]

I have no expectations of them revealing anything to us. Maybe Red will whisper it all to Liz, but we will get nada.

[Surrealist]

11 hours ago, edhopper said:

I have no expectations of them revealing anything to us. Maybe Red will whisper it all to Liz, but we will get nada.

I still never went back to watch the final 15 minutes of the previous episode. I couldn't bring myself to care that much.

Why is the show shifting to Wednesday? Also isn't the next episode the season finale? Or is this episode it?

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Surrealist said:

Why is the show shifting to Wednesday? Also isn't the next episode the season finale? Or is this episode it?

Season 8 has 22 total episodes.

Olympic Qualifying forced NBC to juggle the schedule.

[Surrealist]

57 minutes ago, paigow said:

Season 8 has 22 total episodes.

Olympic Qualifying forced NBC to juggle the schedule.

Fair enough. This season feels like it's dragging unnecessarily though.

[saber5055]

On 6/5/2021 at 3:56 PM, paigow said:

When Reddington takes Liz to the mysterious epicenter of his empire, their shared past reveals itself and long-buried secrets are divulged.

How many mysterious epicenters does Red have? We've seen several places where it appears he calls home, one is even in a shipping container in the middle of the ocean. So now there's ONE "epicenter" where all the secret controls live? Alrighty then. I guess those of us who watch will maybe but probably not find out.

[Neiman]

LOL we rushed around to get in front of the TV by 8:00 p.m. and realized it’s not on until 10:00 p.m. 😂

[saber5055]

Cross-over episode! Red takes Liz to the Enterprise Holodeck where Liz can talk to everyone from her past!

[SunnyBeBe]

Why does Katarina talk like she’s from Calabasas?  🤪

[edhopper]

Mama Red?

The epicenter of Red's organization, inside a bomb shelter, has no defense against Townsend and eight guys?

Edited June 17, 2021 by edhopper

[Surrealist]

Red = Katarina

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Surrealist

[HollyG]

7 minutes ago, edhopper said:

Mama Red?

Oh please no!

[Surrealist]

So glad Townsend and his guys are dead.

I was getting tired of that storyline.

[crowsworks]

14 minutes ago, HollyG said:

Oh please no!

Mama Red? 

I'm trying to think of any woman who's been on the show enough. Tom's mom? That would be bad for the little one. The cranky little crime-cleaner or her GF. Pet store lady? Cranky Boss lady at the FBI who never seems to stop them for all that she yells.

[Bulldog]

35 minutes ago, Surrealist said:

Red = Katerina

I've seen this speculated several places on the internet, but honestly never gave it much credence. However, it certainly seemed like the direction they were headed in this episode. 

[Neiman]

3 minutes ago, Bulldog said:

I've seen this speculated several places on the internet, but honestly never gave it much credence. However, it certainly seemed like the direction they were headed in this episode. 

It does appear they are teasing that story, but I’m not buying. If this is where they go, we’re not watching anymore. Would be a shame to be so invested in a show just to have it get twisted into something like this.

[ottoDbusdriver]

What.  The Hell.  Was That.

It was the retcon of all retcons.  I'm not sure what was more confusing -- the stopping of time "just because" so they could answer "all the questions", the weird interactive projections that were only in black in white (even though we have previously seen some of those scenes in color on this show), Red's apparent complete lack of any external surveillance such that Townsend and his men could sneak up on the bunker  -- I seriously thought that Lizzie had been drugged and she was imagining it all.

And I thought the flashback stories were convoluted before, now they make even less sense.

And yep, Reddington is definitely Lizzie's mom.

During the shootout I was more concerned that Dembe might get shot, and shouted 'Huzzah !' when Lizzie caught a bullet.

Glad that Townsend got his 'Oh fuck !' moment.

Edited June 17, 2021 by ottoDbusdriver

[Brian Cronin]

As I've made a point of noting over the years, I've been assuming this since Season 1, but boy, it's so fucking hacky. 

[Bulldog]

Not trying to apply too much logic to this episode, but what exactly was the mechanism by which Liz was getting this info tonight?  Was Red telling her this story?  Was she dreaming?  Imagining?  Were these projections like a film? Holograms?  Inquiring minds want to know.

[Brian Cronin]

7 minutes ago, Bulldog said:

Not trying to apply too much logic to this episode, but what exactly was the mechanism by which Liz was getting this info tonight?  Was Red telling her this story?  Was she dreaming?  Imagining?  Were these projections like a film? Holograms?  Inquiring minds want to know.

I assume it was some form of hypnosis. I recall they established some form of high end hypnosis earlier in the series (perhaps part of the plot where they explained how Liz's memories were re-written? I can't recall for sure). 

[mxc90]

Red can now stop time and put Liz in a trance to hear a tale?  I have solved it: he's Professor X!

Good Grief! After listening/watching the plot being stretched, twisted, dropped in the toilet, taken out of the toilet, I started to question my own Identity? Had to go look at my driver's license just to make sure!

There was a moment when they were showing the surgery (maybe an addadicktomy), I was expecting later for Katarina to say she was Red.

Who was Liz listening to? Were the events she was hearing being narrated from this fake Red in various voices? And a terrible host is Red! He made Liz stand in that one spot the entire time to hear this tale. Couldn't bring her to a quiet room and sit in a nice comfy chair?

Yes Liz. Listen to Red: stay with the story. Don't get distracted that he has people still using an old fashion typewriter.

Poor Constantine! Get a paternity test next time. Can't trust these lying skanks these days.

All this time I thought Jennifer was the younger sister. 

Tatiana Petrova or fake Katarina (so confused) couldn't have just stayed hidden last season if she was using Katarina's alias? All her actions seems frivolous now.

The epicenter of Red's empire has been supposedly hidden for so many years but Neville found and stormed it with ease. Last episode, Red got a head start as his plane flew over Neville. Did Neville quickly hop in a nearby plane and tell the pilot: "follow that plane!"?

The poor guy that just made a fresh pot of coffee got killed. Felt bad for him. Probably the best pot he's made in a while and no one got a chance to taste it and give him props.

Not one of Neville's men could keep an eye on Liz as she grabbed the gun far away? Not one damn eye ball on her?!!!!

In the commotion carrying Liz, Red tried to grab her boob. He thought he was slick about it and no one would notice.

At least BBQed Neville can finally get that nice sleep he's been missing for 25 years. Dumb fuck see gas coming in and he or his lackeys never thought to run! Fools! The front door was open!

Finally! The finish line of this draining mental marathon of a season is here next week!!!!!!!!!!!  Yay! And the end of Liz! A joyous time indeed! 

Edited June 17, 2021 by mxc90

[Brian Cronin]

2 minutes ago, mxc90 said:

Tatiana Petrova or fake Katarina (so confused) couldn't have just stayed hidden last season if she was using Katarina's alias? All her actions seems frivolous now.

She only came out of hiding because she learned that the real Katarina was alive. She blamed the real Katarina for her husband being murdered, so that's why she was willing to come out of hiding, she wanted revenge against the real Katarina (and once she discovered Red WAS the real Katarina, she wanted revenge against Red). 

[Brian Cronin]

Also, whether you think this is a good idea or not (I'm not a fan), this really isn't a retcon, as people have been predicting this since Season 1 specifically BECAUSE Bokenkamp has been sprinkling clues as to Red being Katarina for YEARS. So this is not something he came up with out of nowhere, this was clearly the plan the whole time. 

For one example from a Season 4 episode, Alexander Kirk (Constantine Rostov) loved Katarina and thought Liz was his kid. He was going to kill Red (after Red said Liz was Red's daughter) until Red whispered something to Kirk and then Kirk let Red go. Clearly, Bokenkamp knew then that Red was Katarina. It's the only way that that scene would make any sense. There are many examples over the years that only make sense with Red as Katarina. 

I don't think it's a good idea, but this has clearly been the plan all along. 

[dwmarch]

This show is some bullshit but I did appreciate that ending.

I think this episode should have been called Nichevo since that's pretty much what we got. Lots of past characters coming back to recap stories we have already seen while repeating endless variations of "we did it all to keep you safe!" And Reddington is not the original Reddington but rather is a replacement thought up after the fact. I feel like we kind of knew that already as well. I don't remember the intricacies of the Katerina plotline but I vaguely recall it centering around her wanting to know who was after her, not her being after someone. At least we got Lottie Verbeek back. I was hoping to see her again.

[BK1978]

1 hour ago, Neiman said:

It does appear they are teasing that story, but I’m not buying. If this is where they go, we’re not watching anymore. Would be a shame to be so invested in a show just to have it get twisted into something like this.

The same.  If that is the twist it seems so exploitative for lack of a better term.  Or as Brain said above very hacky.  I am not sure I can watch this next season if that is the big twist.

[milkyaqua]

I was bored the whole time and just wanting for it to be over.  I'm glad they finally took Townsend out because talk about an awful villian.

He definitely caught a plane fast and of course that ditz Liz didn't think to tell Red or to at least try and disable the tracking device but whatever.  And where was the security?  No one noticed anything?  Master criminals my butt.

The whole time they were going over the whole backstory (and I don't care if it was retconned or not) Liz was doing her usual, "me, me, me," schtick.  Enough of her whining already!  And yes, was she drugged, hypnotized, did  Red hold up a shiny object like you do with pets to get their attention?  They need to wrap this mess up so they can move on to something else.  Long drawn out mythology/mystery storylines almost never pay off and suspect to be just as disappointed in this one as the rest.

Again, don't care about the backstory and never did.  Will Liz get all her answers next week?  Who knows and who cares aside from Liz.

If they'd have shot Dembe I'd have been even more annoyed.  I don't think they'll kill off Liz (I'd say we should be so lucky but that might sound crass). 

Edited June 17, 2021 by milkyaqua

[HollyG]

1 hour ago, BK1978 said:

The same.  If that is the twist it seems so exploitative for lack of a better term.  Or as Brain said above very hacky.  I am not sure I can watch this next season if that is the big twist.

Whoever is the daddy (or mother), they better tell us next week! I get so tired of being lead up to these big reveal moments, only to have to wait until the next episode/season. This has gone on long enough.

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by HollyG

[Dowel Jones]

Yawn.

[Surrealist]

4 hours ago, Brian Cronin said:

Also, whether you think this is a good idea or not (I'm not a fan), this really isn't a retcon, as people have been predicting this since Season 1 specifically BECAUSE Bokenkamp has been sprinkling clues as to Red being Katarina for YEARS. So this is not something he came up with out of nowhere, this was clearly the plan the whole time. 

For one example from a Season 4 episode, Alexander Kirk (Constantine Rostov) loved Katarina and thought Liz was his kid. He was going to kill Red (after Red said Liz was Red's daughter) until Red whispered something to Kirk and then Kirk let Red go. Clearly, Bokenkamp knew then that Red was Katarina. It's the only way that that scene would make any sense. There are many examples over the years that only make sense with Red as Katarina. 

I don't think it's a good idea, but this has clearly been the plan all along. 

Also when Red would reminisce about his mother. Her cooking, etc. You could tell her had a fondness for his mother that didn't exist in the same way with Dom.

Red has always been a motherly figure to Liz, which is another reason I concluded he's Katarina. If they do a fake out that Red isn't Katarina, I'll be surprised because they've been building that storyline for years now (as Brian pointed out).

Edited June 17, 2021 by Surrealist

[paigow]

Was part of gender reassignment implanting a monologue chip?

[NeenerNeener]

OK, that answers my question about why "Katarina" was torturing "Red".  She wasn't really Lizzie's mommy after all. But they all but outright confirmed my guess from seasons back that Red is actually Lizzie's mommy.

 

ETA: Hey, show, way to hit us over the head with the "Red is Katarina" clues by playing "It's A Man's World" as soundtrack.

Edited June 17, 2021 by NeenerNeener

[Yokosmom]

Haven’t there been episodes where it is implied that Red has slept with various women? Wouldn’t this be risky if he’s really Katerina? No surgery is that perfect! Red would be opening him/her self up for some major blackmail there.

[mxc90]

7 hours ago, Brian Cronin said:

She only came out of hiding because she learned that the real Katarina was alive. She blamed the real Katarina for her husband being murdered, so that's why she was willing to come out of hiding, she wanted revenge against the real Katarina (and once she discovered Red WAS the real Katarina, she wanted revenge against Red). 

With Boone now confirmed to not be in season 9 (hopefully the last), what's the probability they changed direction from Katarina/Red and created this mystery man to be the focus for the season?

[NeenerNeener]

41 minutes ago, mxc90 said:

With Boone now confirmed to not be in season 9 (hopefully the last), what's the probability they changed direction from Katarina/Red and created this mystery man to be the focus for the season?

I'm hoping they decide to go full circle and have Lizzie "undergo a procedure" so she doesn't look the same anymore and they can replace Boone with another actress...or actor.

[tv echo]

That was the most painfully long, drawn-out exposition in the history of expositions.

And who are we supposed to believe delivered that exposition? A group of ghosts who appeared to Liz in Red's bunker? Liz having spontaneous visions while in an unstable mental state? Red giving the exposition and Liz's imagination interpreting it through voices of dead people? Who the heck knows? 

I guess the world really does revolve around Elizabeth Keen.

I don't think Liz will die. I think, with Red's help, she and her daughter (and maybe Ressler, if he survives) will disappear and start over somewhere else with a new life and new identities. They could even do a fake-out where the world believes Ressler died.

1 hour ago, mxc90 said:

With Boone now confirmed to not be in season 9 (hopefully the last), what's the probability they changed direction from Katarina/Red and created this mystery man to be the focus for the season?

They are really leading us down the path to the conclusion that Katarina turned herself into Red (James Spader). If this was the last season of The Blacklist, that conclusion could close the circle on the Red/Liz storyline. But I wouldn't be shocked if Red turns out to be someone completely new - with his own, new, mysterious back story that will propel us into the next season of this show (without Megan Boone). 

Edited June 17, 2021 by tv echo

[Brian Cronin]

I think Liz being recast through plastic surgery would be a pretty clever way of handling things, really, so I'd be sort of impressed if they went that route. And obviously it's been set up by the series with Red's magic plastic surgery.

But I think a more likely scenario is her going on the run with Agnes, basically getting the fake Katarina setup from Red, and by the end, SHE knows that Red is Katarina, but we don't. My issue with her knowing if she stays on the show, how could she possibly not tell anyone? The only way I think they could still keep it a secret is if they write her off with her knowing but us not.

Don't get me wrong, they came this far, they really should just fucking tell us, but it really does feel like something they'd only reveal in a series finale. 

[Brian Cronin]

2 hours ago, Yokosmom said:

Haven’t there been episodes where it is implied that Red has slept with various women? Wouldn’t this be risky if he’s really Katerina? No surgery is that perfect! Red would be opening him/her self up for some major blackmail there.

It doesn't make any sense. It's basically just magic surgery, because Red's body type isn't remotely the same as Katarina's. 

That said, I don't think we've ever had a woman say, "Oh man, the way you ejaculated was amazing," ya know? Plenty of transmen have quite fulfilling sex lives and their partners have no complaints. Does it still seem a bit odd that it would never come up in conversation? Of course, but I think that's less surprising than, say, the fact that Red and Katarina have completely different heights, etc.

[paigow]

35 minutes ago, Brian Cronin said:

Of course, but I think that's less surprising than, say, the fact that Red and Katarina have completely different heights, etc.

When Tom Cruise / Ethan Hunt puts on a 3D printed mask, he magically changes height and weight to fit the subject and reverts immediately to his original dimensions... so I would give the surgeons a handwave....

[kirkola]

5 hours ago, NeenerNeener said:

OK, that answers my question about why "Katarina" was torturing "Red".  She wasn't really Lizzie's mommy after all. But they all but outright confirmed my guess from seasons back that Red is actually Lizzie's mommy.

 

ETA: Hey, show, way to hit us over the head with the "Red is Katarina" clues by playing "It's A Man's World" as soundtrack.

The song felt like the nail in that particular coffin, er plot twist.

[paigow]

Is it some kind of surgical side effect that brings KataRed / RedArina to the edge of death, spontaneously goes into remission, then reappears again???

Edited June 17, 2021 by paigow

[saber5055]

5 hours ago, Yokosmom said:

Haven’t there been episodes where it is implied that Red has slept with various women?

Red's implanted Monologue Chip causes him to expound on many various topics for great lengths of time. Doesn't mean any of his stories are true.

I hadn't watched any of the episodes leading up to this one, but with the day change I was able to tune in. But man, after some five minutes I was forcing myself to keep watching. However, by mid point I discovered I was multi-tasking doing other things so pretty much missed "the rest of the story." So, as always, I came here where it's more fun to read than actually watch the show. Best highlight for me was learning Boone won't be back next season. That gets a big YEAY! from me.

[KittenPokerCheater]

Why is it so important to save Liz Keane again?  

With all this hoo-ha about how important it was to protect her, I'm wondering the writers have  decided she's destined to save the world or something in the future.

[SunnyBeBe]

I returned to watching this season out of desperation for entertainment.  I walked away from this show seasons ago because I got fed up with the mystery of who Red was and who Liz’s father was.  I didn’t care and still don’t care, so I hope they get it over with.   
 

I have read about limb lengthening, but it’s normally done for young people at certain stages of their development.  I’m trying to envision it..............🙄

[BrownBear2012]

Worst episode ever...and that is a tough competition with all the other bad episodes in this tired show. This was almost unwatchable and I drifted off and played with my IPad much of the time. I almost bailed several times but stuck with it out of habit. Who is writing this drivel? Oh dear god...it's just awful. NO ONE CARES WHO LIZZIE'S DAD IS!!!! Just kill Liz off and start from scratch next season. And this whole Townsend thing was monotous and stupid...I must have fallen asleep for a few minutes and missed why Townsend wanted to kill Liz...was it revenge against Red who he blamed for killing his family? Let's spend 5 or 6 episodes on this lunatic with a vendetta. I really think a high school student taking a creative writing class could have written a better season. I'm starting to lose respect for James Spader who should have more say in the arc of each season and if he does, then what the hell was he thinking? This is really beneath his intelligence and talent.

[edhopper]

So Red, who had multiple male lovers as Katrina is now a lesbian?

[saber5055]

3 hours ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

Why is it so important to save Liz Keane again?  

Because she is really Sarah Connor? Agnes is really Sarah Connor? Red is really Sarah Connor?

Otherwise, I got nothing.

[milkyaqua]

So if Red is the "mother" does that mean The Alchemist was involved?  And what about the bones in the suitcase?

[edhopper]

Red is really dead this whole time.

Red is his own mother.

Red is Satan

Red is Liz's hallucination 

Red is Tyler Durden.

[paigow]

52 minutes ago, milkyaqua said:

 And what about the bones in the suitcase?

Probably Reddington 1.0