S01.E01: Glorious Purpose

[silverstream]

I see "you killed your mother" more as emotional manipulation on Mobius' part rather than an actual proof of specific guilt. All Loki said was "You might want to take the stairs to the left" - we're talking about a palace with probably hundreds of rooms, so saying he sent Algrim somewhere by literally boxing in what was probably a 50/50 choice or so (stairs to the left, stairs to the right, stairs to ?the front?) is reaching a bit unless Frigga was literally in the first room if you took the first set of steps left from the dungeon (which, given how that room looked, I'd say is unlikely).

Like, sending him to what I presume was the family wing was pretty awful of him, but it's a huge palace and Algrim would have take one of the available sets of stairs eventually. Mobius' goal here wasn't to lay down the truth.

[kay1864]

I noticed that the logo of the TVA on the front of the judge's bench included an hourglass...was I the only one that thought it also could be a sort of Cubist infinity symbol?  Or am I giving the designers too much credit?

 

Noticed on the second viewing...in 2012, how in the world did Loki go from "I smell Tony Stark's cologne seemingly twice" to "the Avengers have traveled back in time to 2012"?  He was facing away from FutureTony the whole time, and FutureCap was never even in the area.  And yet he said (in the court scene) that the Avengers (not just Tony) had time-traveled.

[angora]

6 hours ago, TrininisaScorp said:

That first episode was everything I wanted it to be.  I wondered how we were going to go from angry, megalomaniac, Thanos influenced Avenger's Loki to something that resembled IW Loki.  Truly, one of my saddest moments in Infinity War is that Loki's arc felt cut down too soon, and the cynic in me wonders if his redemption over time was really just b/c of the audience consistently positive reaction to Tom's work vs. a strategic choice.  Thus, I thought the "reel of life", while cruel in so many ways, was a good device to get us to some of that evolved Loki by quickly dashing some of his assumptions about his family, but keep his jagged edges (and that's the development we should expect to see in s1).  Hiddleston's range of emotion watching Frigga die, hearing Odin call him son, watching his triumph during Ragnorak, and then his death and Thor's reaction broke my heart (Tom's eyes are so very expressive at all times).  Watching the footage coupled with trying to use the tesseract and failing, makes his defeated attitude at the end all the more earned.  And maybe I am naïve, but I do believe that he doesn't like killing, and that sometimes the part we play to keep us under the illusion of control of our lives makes us do things we don't like.  It doesn't make it right, nor does it allay blame from us, but it's honest. With all the magical and surrealism, that rung true for me more than anything.  I wonder if the central theme of this series is identity and who we are/how we see ourselves.  These D+ series have been excellent at exploring what it means to be human using the medium of superheroes. 

ITA, especially with the bolded. I too like my villains to be complicated but not woobified, and the particular execution of this moment, coming on the back of Loki 1) realizing just how out of his league he is after seeing the drawer full of worthless Infinity Stones and 2) seeing Loki Prime's life and learning how much he evolved, was an excellent culmination for the episode. I think an essential part of a good villain-redemption storyline is the villain acknowledging, not just that their actions hurt other people, but that their actions hurt THEMSELVES too. In order to grow and change for the better, Loki needs to admit that all his problems can't be traced back to Odin or Thor or the Avengers. When he made the shift from trickster to full-on villain, he wrought a lot of destruction on his own life, and after what he's been through here, I can buy him coming to grips with the idea that he did things he didn't want to do in order to play this role he'd cast himself in.

I loved it. I like that such an immensely-powerful agency has such a chintzy office vibe and that dealing with this Loki Variant is just another day at the office for them. Delightful to see Eugene Cordero pop up here (Pillboi!) - Casey was a lot of fun. I love both Gugu Mbatha-Raw and Wumni Mosaku, so I'm looking forward to more from them. Owen Wilson's laidback middle-management attitude offers a great foil to Loki's grandstanding.

But obviously, it's all about Loki here. I loved his smartass bits in the opening scene with the Avengers, his self-important speechifying, his utter bafflement at all the weirdness of the TVA, his being a little shit with Hunter B-15 and the time collar, his exasperation that Casey was so confused by his threats, and so much more.  Tom Hiddleston knocked it out of the park, moving so effortless from self-assured wit to comic reaction shots to earnest character drama. Unlike Wanda, Vision, Sam, and Bucky, Loki is a character who's been given plenty of space to shine in the movies, but I'm still so excited to see him take center stage here and have Hiddleston really sink his teeth into what the show has in store for him.

[Bruinsfan]

7 hours ago, TrininisaScorp said:

Like, maybe what the Avengers did was ok, but what about Steve choosing to stay in the 40s with Peggy?  How does that not fuck up the scared timeline? I guess they can handwave that was meant to happen, but...really?! 

My assumption is that in the Time Keepers' own history, Steve disappears to return the Infinity Stones to their proper places in time and immediately reappears as an old man to pass his mantle on to Sam. That means they wouldn't be safe to prune the divergent timeline he created in the 1940s until he leaves it with remade shield in hand.

[minamurray78]

I really liked the show. I had forgotten how good tom hiddleston is and how much he made loki his own. 

I thought I had understood most of it and that I had my time travel ducks in a row but after reading the comments and rethinking and remembering a few things now I´m not so sure LOL.  I had a few questions I wanted to ask here but now I don´t even know how to formulate them, will have to rethink them before the next episode.

Really liked Owen Wilson here, he plays off Hiddleston very well, and I think it´ll be interesting to see a Loki that is not "GLORIOUS PURPOSE MODE ON" all the time. It´ll be interesting to see exactly what their dinamic will be, and what cards does the TVA have uo their sleeves.  

[kay1864]

On 6/9/2021 at 9:40 PM, AnimeMania said:

At 11:15 the Miss Minutes TVA reel showed an image of the Earth with a TVA logo stamped over it. Having that picture of the Earth made me think that the TVA's scope is smaller than I believe it is, since I believe they operate on a universal and multidimensional scale. I think the production crew placing the image of the Earth in the instructional TVA video was a poor choice.

My fan theory is that the TVA has a different video for whatever species is standing in line.  They might even have different lines, for really large or small species.

[lawrbk]

2 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

My assumption is that in the Time Keepers' own history, Steve disappears to return the Infinity Stones to their proper places in time and immediately reappears as an old man to pass his mantle on to Sam. That means they wouldn't be safe to prune the divergent timeline he created in the 1940s until he leaves it with remade shield in hand.

I’ve always gone with the writers and with what Bruce said when explaining time travel. Steve was always meant to travel back. He created a time loop not an alternate timeline. This is what their quantum physics technical advisor agreed with. I never got why the Russos are given more credence than the writers and advisers. I think Loki and the TVA are answering these things and closing their own loopholes to start fresh. Probably why it wasn’t touched on in WandaVision and danced around in Falcon and the winter soldier. I loved seeing the flashbacks to Endgame. I’m going to miss that era of which Loki is a throwback. So much good history to mine with him. I hope we see more fun bits like him being DB Cooper. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

6 hours ago, silverstream said:

I see "you killed your mother" more as emotional manipulation on Mobius' part rather than an actual proof of specific guilt. All Loki said was "You might want to take the stairs to the left"

Didn't he intend for Thor to be killed, though? It's been a long time since I've seen The Dark World, but he knew that Algrim wasn't there to sing happy birthday to anyone. Even if Frigga's death was just a 'whoops' on Loki's part in directing the Dark Elves where to go, he wouldn't have minded *that* much if Thor had gotten stabbed, as evidenced by how many times he himself had wielded a knife against his brother. That's not even considering that he flat out said Frigga was not his mother, just as Odin wasn't his father, and then he never gets to make it right because of his 'whoops'. Calling Mobius manipulative, while possibly true, just sounds like, "Well, he didn't mean for that to happen. He "only" meant to get Thor killed."

[AnimeMania]

55 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

On 6/9/2021 at 9:40 PM, AnimeMania said:

At 11:15 the Miss Minutes TVA reel showed an image of the Earth with a TVA logo stamped over it. Having that picture of the Earth made me think that the TVA's scope is smaller than I believe it is, since I believe they operate on a universal and multidimensional scale. I think the production crew placing the image of the Earth in the instructional TVA video was a poor choice.

My fan theory is that the TVA has a different video for whatever species is standing in line.  They might even have different lines, for really large or small species.

That might be true, but Loki isn't from Earth, so it still rubs me the wrong way.

[Kel Varnsen]

49 minutes ago, lawrbk said:

I’ve always gone with the writers and with what Bruce said when explaining time travel. Steve was always meant to travel back. He created a time loop not an alternate timeline

Since watching Falcon and the Winter Solider, every time this idea comes up I wonder, if Cap was always Mr. Carter and just hid out in Peggy's basement without drawing any attention to himself how did he get a new shield? It is also too bad that vibranium doesn't have an easy to identify look since it would have been cool to see some with the infinity stones at the TVA office.

[kay1864]

5 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

That might be true, but Loki isn't from Earth, so it still rubs me the wrong way.

Excellent point!  Hey TVA, how about a little cultural sensitivity, huh?  Asgardians (apparent) and Frost Giants are people too!  (sorta)

On 6/10/2021 at 4:38 PM, Rambler said:

I wonder what the purpose is for having to verify everything you ever said? I know if it was me, most of the time I would be saying "I don't remember saying that" as I looked through the papers.

I wonder what happens if you say "Nope I never said that".

Why do I get the funny feeling that I will never get an answer to these very important questions?

You could start by having a coffee mug with a picture of your cat on it...on both sides of the mug.  Then we can go from there.

On 6/10/2021 at 4:46 PM, cambridgeguy said:

maybe the Timekeepers are Steve/Peggy shippers.

Yep, these three totally sitting in their armchairs, eating popcorn, seeing Steve and Peggy dancing in her living room, going "Awwww...."

[Morrigan2575]

14 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

Yep, these three totally sitting in their armchairs, eating popcorn, seeing Steve and Peggy dancing in her living room, going "Awwww...."

 

I've see a lot of YouTube videos saying there was a Easter Egg of a Peggy Variant in the background of the episode. I have no idea if it's true but, it's curious as to why she'd be there.

I still don't buy this whole l, what the Avengers did was always meant to happen BS. Then again, I also didn't buy the Hulk's explanation for time travel. If nothing else they didn't return all the Stones to their original time because Loki stole the 2012 Space Stone. Even if Steve returned the stone to the 70s it still created a new Timeline in 2012. If the show is saying that's why the NVA were right on him in Mongoloia, 1) they never returned the stone to 2012 and 2) never returned Loki.

So does that mean they pruned the Varient Timeline?

I'm waiting and, seeing Timey Wimey generally frustrates me but, I also don't trust the NVA, I think they're lying through their teeth.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Morrigan2575

[silverstream]

6 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Didn't he intend for Thor to be killed, though? It's been a long time since I've seen The Dark World, but he knew that Algrim wasn't there to sing happy birthday to anyone. Even if Frigga's death was just a 'whoops' on Loki's part in directing the Dark Elves where to go, he wouldn't have minded *that* much if Thor had gotten stabbed, as evidenced by how many times he himself had wielded a knife against his brother. That's not even considering that he flat out said Frigga was not his mother, just as Odin wasn't his father, and then he never gets to make it right because of his 'whoops'. Calling Mobius manipulative, while possibly true, just sounds like, "Well, he didn't mean for that to happen. He "only" meant to get Thor killed."

Oh, I strongly doubt he was trying to be nice and helpful to the Asgardians here (I've got no idea of palace layout, but if he wanted to be helpful he could for example have sent Asgrim in the rough direction of say, the soldiers' barracks so he'd have a fight on his hands) but re: killing Thor the same applies for me: "Take the left stairs" isn't really a proper direction when it comes to a palace.

And the thing about Thor (while entirely possible) was made up by Mobius - unless he's lying and the TVA has some mindreading or similar technology and this entire session is 100% just to mess with Loki, he has no idea why Loki said what he said to Asgrim. Might be because he thought Thor was in that rough direction (might be because he thinks Odin is in that rought direction, whom he arguably hates even more!). Might be for another reason entirely - Mobius has no way of knowing.

My main point is Mobius doesn't really know anything about Loki's motivations here and is making it up to best suit his purpose of unsettling Loki.

Another thought about Engame and timelines: We wouldn't necessarily know if the TVA was involved in any of the timetravel shenanigans in Endgame. Maybe there were 25 variants of Thor and 50 variants of Tony Stark and even more variants of Steve that acted slightly differently while in past and the TVA decreed that they weren't in accordance with the Sacred Timeline anymore and needed to be reset until they changed the past in exactly the way the TVA decided they needed to. That might be part of why the TVA has so many Infinity Stones (though I'd guess people who are handling those would be more prone to creating alternate timelines in general).

Edited June 14, 2021 by silverstream

[kay1864]

On 6/13/2021 at 8:25 AM, merylinkid said:

There might have been HUNDREDS of rooms they sent variants to, all empty but you still had to take a ticket.   Because them's the rules. 

It's a pretty universal rule...

 

On 6/12/2021 at 4:28 PM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I checked IMDB because I was wondering about the accent, and Tara Strong is from Toronto. I'm not familiar with her copious amount of voice work, but just the overdoneness of it almost had me fooled.

My Tennessee friend says hers is pretty good, but more Nashville than "rural Tennessee".  (I've been to Nashville several times, and yes, many do talk like that)

[SnarkShark]

16 hours ago, TrininisaScorp said:

 I also don't yet really understand how their timeline theory works.  Like, maybe what the Avengers did was ok, but what about Steve choosing to stay in the 40s with Peggy?  How does that not fuck up the scared timeline? I guess they can handwave that was meant to happen, but...really?!

Someone saying it was okay doesn't mean it was okay.  It's the theory of the unreliable narrative. The judge saying its true doesn't mean its true.  The Timekeepers (if they actually said it and it hasn't been twisted along the way) saying it doesn't mean it's true.  We're just being TOLD that people have said or claim to believe those things. And we don't even know for sure if Steve's later trip was included in that.  Loki was specifically bringing up the events that affected him personally.

12 hours ago, silverstream said:

Mobius' goal here wasn't to lay down the truth.

Mobius is not a good dude.  The show hides it behind Owen Wilson's affability, but we see lots of hints (about him AND the entire TVA). 

One of many examples?  Anyone Awwwwwing at how nice he was to that little kid needs to think about the fact that he and his goons murdered that kid minutes later when they erased him and his entire timeline from existence.  He was being manipulative/fake nice. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

5 minutes ago, SnarkShark said:

  Loki was specifically bringing up the events that affected him personally. 

And yet what is Loki if *not* an unreliable narrator? The entire reason he thought of himself as deprived and tragic is based on little more than not getting what he wanted, whether it was being Odin's favorite or the throne of Asgard or Thor's respect, and it never seems to occur to him that his own innate sneakiness and deceptive behavior is *why* those things kept happening. If Mobius is lying to him now in saying that his purpose is to lift others up through his defeats, then maybe there's a reason for it.

[minamurray78]

Am I correct in assuming that the variant is actually hunting for reset charges? or did they mention something else he did in those new branches?

[silverstream]

Just now, minamurray78 said:

Am I correct in assuming that the variant is actually hunting for reset charges? or did they mention something else he did in those new branches?

Yes, that would be my guess too; I don't think they've mentioned anything else so far.

[johntfs]

On 6/13/2021 at 2:21 AM, lawrbk said:

they retconned Loki as being under Thanos’s mind control with scepter (whatever 🙄) so I wonder if they’ll touch that or ignore it. Because he doesn’t seem to be acting like he was. It was so moving though for him to see what his life had become only to realize he dies. I wish they’d added ‘the sun will shine upon us again brother’ line though. 

as for the sacred timeline, I always assumed the writers and their quantum physics adviser knew better than the directors what their intention for Steve was—a time loop, not an alternate timeline. Bruce spelled it out when discussing killing baby Thanos and how it wouldn’t work. Steve went into the past and that past became his future and his present became his past. He couldn’t change anything, thus couldn’t root out hydra or rescue Bucky or stop 9/11 or something. In endgame, the Ancient one never addressed time travel, just the removal of infinity stones. THAT caused alternate timelines as they disrupted the flow of time. But she’s always quoted as spelling out the time travel rules when she didn’t. Bruce did. Plus they would’ve busted him and, I guess, sent his butt back to 2023 if he was messing with the timeline. Since they didn’t, it seems he was, as the writers maintained, always Peggy's husband. I hope it’s settled once and for all. it’s a little hand wavey to say they gave the avengers a pass but, given their knowledge, I guess they realized they would return to their time after returning the stones. Except for Loki getting the tesseract they really didn’t affect anything significant so ‘who cares’, I guess. It’s be interesting to see a reference to Agents of SHIELD since they messed around with events A LOT during their last season. But you know the MCU will ignore it. They didn’t even show Loki Coulsen was alive. Unless that was just to mess with him. 
 

since Loki can never return to the sacred timeline as he’s dead in it, it makes me wonder if the writers will work in conjunction with James Gunn. Because these shows, unlike AOS and the Netflix ones, are supposed to be seriously intertwined. So whatever happens with Loki should affect 2014 Gamora too, I’d think, since sacred timeline gamora has been dead since 2018 and it’s now 2023 in the MCU. Maybe where she went after the battle and why Peter only got a ‘searching’ for her. We could see Loki not just answer questions—his own, obviously; Steve; the Avengers mission—but future MCU events, like gamora and moving into the multiverse. So I’ve really been looking forward to this on its own merits but especially how it answers questions and sets things up. 
 

 

 

As far as the mind control, Loki seemed less violent here.  He could have used the "time thingy" to gruesomely murder Hunter-15, but didn't.

Steve went to an alternate universe.  Presumably it was one the TVA permitted to exist while he was in it and then destroyed once he left to bring the Shield to Sam.  Or, since this show seems to take place during Endgame, perhaps Steve's universe occurs after the TVA is destroyed/overthrown/changes it's stance somewhat.  Maybe due to Loki's influence, the TVA moderates a bit and decides that the timeline where Steve and Peggy get a happily-ever-after is okay, but they're still gonna prune the fuck out of the Hitler Summons Azathoth timelines.

The TVA aside, there's no reason why this Loki can't return to the Sacred Timeline.  He's basically like Gamora - another version of a dead character who is around due to "time shenanigans." 

[SnarkShark]

5 hours ago, johntfs said:

The TVA aside, there's no reason why this Loki can't return to the Sacred Timeline.  He's basically like Gamora - another version of a dead character who is around due to "time shenanigans." 

Yeah I mentioned that elsewhere. Loki can't change what his other self did or experienced.  He also can't change anything directly caused by his death.  But there's definitely a concept of "the present" in this stuff we're seeing, despite Mobius statement about the TVA having it's own concept of time.  Our Loki is from 2012.  I'm thinking the TVA actually IS set around Endgame.  Because they don't have Intel on how their OWN current problem is solved, but DO know how Loki's life ends.  So it's later than Infinity War, but actually since they also aren't surprised at how he got that Tesseract, their present had also moved past the point The Avengers traveled back from.  

Ergo, they certainly don't control all of time.  They leave from a present and go to various pasts. 

This Loki can certainly go back to the main timeline.  What's happened there isn't written yet.  In other Marvel properties like the non-canonical Agents of SHIELD they may touch on the Future, but those futures aren't under the control of the TVA.  We have no reason to believe Loki would split the timeline being introduced back into the main timeline. 

[bethy]

Are we sure that resetting the timeline means the people who experienced the time variant are killed? I just assumed that a reset meant that time goes back to where the variant would have happened, so essentially the people who stumbled across it never, then, actually experience anything off. 

[lawrbk]

On 6/14/2021 at 1:50 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

Since watching Falcon and the Winter Solider, every time this idea comes up I wonder, if Cap was always Mr. Carter and just hid out in Peggy's basement without drawing any attention to himself how did he get a new shield? It is also too bad that vibranium doesn't have an easy to identify look since it would have been cool to see some with the infinity stones at the TVA office.

He took his knowledge with him to the past. I figure he either used Howard’s contacts (how Howard  got the original vibranium) or used Tony’s since Tony mentioned he knew of black markets, etc. when discussing Klauwe and vibranium. Or Peggy got a hold of some through SHIELD. Vibranium was also tied to the Herb that gave black Panthers their powers and, since that’s gone, maybe Loki can introduce some extra ala the Infinity Stones.

On 6/14/2021 at 8:05 PM, johntfs said:

As far as the mind control, Loki seemed less violent here.  He could have used the "time thingy" to gruesomely murder Hunter-15, but didn't.

Steve went to an alternate universe.  Presumably it was one the TVA permitted to exist while he was in it and then destroyed once he left to bring the Shield to Sam.  Or, since this show seems to take place during Endgame, perhaps Steve's universe occurs after the TVA is destroyed/overthrown/changes it's stance somewhat.  Maybe due to Loki's influence, the TVA moderates a bit and decides that the timeline where Steve and Peggy get a happily-ever-after is okay, but they're still gonna prune the fuck out of the Hitler Summons Azathoth timelines.

The TVA aside, there's no reason why this Loki can't return to the Sacred Timeline.  He's basically like Gamora - another version of a dead character who is around due to "time shenanigans." 

I still think they’ve now clarified he was in a Time loop not an alternate timeline. That’s really the simplest thing too. Steve was always her husband in the Sacred Timeline so no need to prune anything. There are just 2 Caps from 2012-2023 when 2023 Steve goes back to 1949 and ages into the ST, strolls up (no sign of his GPS or anything) and gives Sam the shield. Then either dies (my belief) or goes back into the shadows. In an alternate timeline he’d have no way of knowing he’d be around in 2023 to hand it off. He could’ve gotten hit by a bus in 1950. :)  

I still don’t like the retcon of Loki and being under Thanos’s control. Takes too much responsibility from him and makes him a less dangerous  villain IMO. You lose some of the impact of his redemptive arc. 

[Kel Varnsen]

11 hours ago, SnarkShark said:

Yeah I mentioned that elsewhere. Loki can't change what his other self did or experienced.  He also can't change anything directly caused by his death.  But there's definitely a concept of "the present" in this stuff we're seeing, despite Mobius statement about the TVA having it's own concept of time.  Our Loki is from 2012.  I'm thinking the TVA actually IS set around Endgame.  Because they don't have Intel on how their OWN current problem is solved, but DO know how Loki's life ends.  So it's later than Infinity War, but actually since they also aren't surprised at how he got that Tesseract, their present had also moved past the point The Avengers traveled back from.  

Ergo, they certainly don't control all of time.  They leave from a present and go to various pasts. 

The TVA exists outside of time. The timekeepers have basically seen everything and are downloading it all to the judge lady and I assume others. The reason they can't track the other evil Loki is because he is also working outside of time I think. So they can see where he has been but they can't see where he is going.

3 hours ago, bethy said:

Are we sure that resetting the timeline means the people who experienced the time variant are killed? I just assumed that a reset meant that time goes back to where the variant would have happened, so essentially the people who stumbled across it never, then, actually experience anything off. 

I guess it depends. Thanos turned time backwards to get it to where he wanted and he didn't really kill Wanda in the timeline where the mindstone was destroyed. Is resetting a timeline just turning time backwards until you reach the nexus point or is it killing all the people in that timeline?

[silverstream]

4 minutes ago, lawrbk said:

I still don’t like the retcon of Loki and being under Thanos’s control. Takes too much responsibility from him and makes him a less dangerous  villain IMO. You lose some of the impact of his redemptive arc. 

While I don't want to get into the weeds here, that depends on how you define retcon - Loki was originally supposed to be under Thanos's control in Avengers and they even filmed multiple scenes showing this for the movie, up to the point that some of those scenes got rudimentary CGI, which means the decision to cut those scenes from the final movie was made fairly late in the production process (you can find those scenes on youtube fairly easily, they've been around for years). This also means that TH played Loki as under Thanos's control in other scenes, so it's really more of a reintroduction than a retcon.

[johntfs]

6 hours ago, lawrbk said:

I still think they’ve now clarified he was in a Time loop not an alternate timeline. That’s really the simplest thing too. Steve was always her husband in the Sacred Timeline so no need to prune anything. There are just 2 Caps from 2012-2023 when 2023 Steve goes back to 1949 and ages into the ST, strolls up (no sign of his GPS or anything) and gives Sam the shield. Then either dies (my belief) or goes back into the shadows. In an alternate timeline he’d have no way of knowing he’d be around in 2023 to hand it off. He could’ve gotten hit by a bus in 1950. :)  

I still don’t like the retcon of Loki and being under Thanos’s control. Takes too much responsibility from him and makes him a less dangerous  villain IMO. You lose some of the impact of his redemptive arc. 

Except that Steve going back to 1949 as part of the Sacred Timeline is BS according to Tony Stark and Bruce Banner - the two experts on time travel who went to great lengths to explain that Back to the Future was a bunch of bullshit AKA you cannot actual travel back in time within your own universe.  At the very least you can't do it with the quantum/shrinking technology they used to do it.

Beyond all that, the "Time Loop" idea asks me to believe that Steve Rogers spent the 85 years between 1949 and 2023... being the polar opposite of Steve Rogers.  Let's leave aside the Marvel and look at real-world events for a bit.  When HUAC and Joe McCarthy were smearing reputations and destroying lives, Steve Rogers said and did nothing.  When racists turned fire hoses and vicious dogs on black people protesting for equality, Steve Rogers said and did nothing.  When JFK was being driven around in Dallas, Steve Rogers watched it on TV knowning his head was going to get exploded.  When MLK Jr. was assassinated in Memphis, Steve allowed it to happen.  When a pregnant Sharon Tate and her friends died in terror and agony at the hands and knives of Charlies Manson's cult, Steve was cool with letting it occur.  And on September 11, 2001, Steve Rogers watched those planes crash into the World Trade Center and didn't so much as glance at a phone before then.

But enduring that enforced helplessness was all worth it because... he finally got to bang Peggy Carter on a regular basis?  I just can't buy it.

As for Loki... he wasn't being controlled by Thanos.  He was at most being influenced by Thanos through the Mind Stone.  But influence isn't control.  Loki's choices were still his own (as much as anyone's choices are their own with the TVA enforcing the Sacred Timeline).  It's just that same choices and options were clearer (the ones that involved killing and violence) than others.  I mean, take the bit with the guy with the eyeball.  Did Loki have to do that?  Well, we just saw him bloodlessly hijack an airplane as D. B. Cooper over a bet with Thor.  He could certainly have used his magic, cunning and persuasiveness to convince the dude to open the doors for him, but... gouging out the guy's eye and making a big, stupid public speech to draw the Avengers somehow seemed like the better option.

One thing to consider about 2012-Variant Loki (AKA the Loki of this show) is that he finally has the chance to do what Thor said to original Loki, "You were always the Trickster, but you could have been more."  Under the TVA, original Loki really couldn't be more.  He wasn't allowed to be more.  This Loki, on the other hand, might have a real chance to rise above that.

Edited June 16, 2021 by johntfs

[Cobalt Stargazer]

2 hours ago, johntfs said:

One thing to consider about 2012-Variant Loki (AKA the Loki of this show) is that he finally has the chance to do what Thor said to original Loki, "You were always the Trickster, but you could have been more."  Under the TVA, original Loki really couldn't be more.  He wasn't allowed to be more.  This Loki, on the other hand, might have a real chance to rise above that.

I would posit that Loki didn't want to be more. As you said, even if he was influenced by Thanos, his choices were mostly his own, including gouging some stranger's eye out just for the hell of it. Original Loki wasn't like Wanda, who had one bucket of shit after another dumped on her head. He wasn't like Bucky, who had no free will at all and is just starting to get out from under the shadow of the Winter Soldier. He didn't even have Natasha's explanation of being turned over to a government agency as a young girl and transformed into a remorseless killer. The retcon or reintroduction of the notion that Thanos was using him as a puppet only works to a point, since again as you posted he didn't have to take the guy's eye, much less make a speech. Loki's need for attention was so great that he deliberately caused a spectacle in Germany, because if he'd done things quietly he might have gotten by with it. Where's the line between, "I have no choice because there's a cosmic plan in place" and "I think I'll show my whole ass even though subtlety is probably a much better idea"?

Better question: if Loki was not actually controlled by Thanos, just influenced, could he not also have bucked the TVA's plan to a point? His venal desire to prove that he was better than Thor ( a better son, a better king, what have you) is why he agreed to use the Chitauri to attack New York, but that same craving for attention/recognition is also why he practically dared the Avengers to come after him. "I am a god, you dull creature!" Honestly, the idea that it was set in stone that no matter what he did he would fail is a little annoying to me, because it's like the Thanos thing, something to make his bad acts *maybe* not quite so bad. If he was just born to lose, his previous whinging about never getting his due or the respect he deserved turned out to be true, but it's not because of any personal faults or failings, it's just an inescapable prophecy. Hard to rise above something if there's nothing to fix, yeah?

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Better question: if Loki was not actually controlled by Thanos, just influenced, could he not also have bucked the TVA's plan to a point?

It's kind of hard to "buck" something when you don't/can't know that it exists.

[Abra]

Thoughts after a re-watch but before watching the second episode:

Why bring the variants to trial for their "crimes" to begin with? Why not just reset everything? Did the Timekeepers create that rule? Seems like it could lead to trouble...:)

How did Loki know the Avengers were playing around with timeline? He shouldn't. Is it a mistake on the writers' part, or something that will make sense later? (Is this Loki variant even who he appears to be to us right now?)

Was that Peggy Carter being brought into the TVA after Loki stole the time twister thingy? They made a point to briefly focus on her (whoever she is) while the Hunter brought her in. Curious.

Loki grabbed a Time Stone "paperweight" from Pillboi's drawer; I wonder if that will come into play in the future? Is the nasty variant Loki that they're hunting a later variation of the current variant Loki whose story we're watching now, and evil(er) variant Loki is bopping around time because he escaped the TVA and has an infinity stone that works now?

Who were the two guys wearing sashes that Pillboi was complaining to? What's their status?

Miss Minutes had a line at the very end of the credits: "Thanks for visiting the TVA. Don't hesitate to let us know how we're doin'!"

**I'm beginning to wonder if the MCU decisionmakers are going to say that the alternate universe that Steve created when he went back to clone Peggy ended up curving back to rejoin the "Sacred" Timeline (when Steve went back to gave the shield to Sam) to basically create its own loop, while not actually looping back on itself. Then they can excuse away that whole mess. Plus, the whole "that's what the Timekeepers want" can excuse literally anything. :/

[kay1864]

If Hunter B-15 could keep Loki in check in Mongolia, why couldn’t the Minutemen reverse / prevent the flow of the fire in Oklahoma to protect themselves?

[Cobalt Stargazer]

9 hours ago, johntfs said:

It's kind of hard to "buck" something when you don't/can't know that it exists.

I suppose. Doesn't answer my larger question, though. Is Loki to be held responsible for nothing he's done? Unless the original version was an idiot, he had to have known that Thanos was up to no good, and he fell in with him anyway because of his desire for power and to prove that he was superior to Thor. Saying now, "Well, the TVA meant for him to do that" whether it was to stab Coulson in the back or inadvertently cause his mother's death is an escape hatch, IMO. If his moral weaknesses don't come into play here and he doesn't learn something, then he's a poor candidate to help the TVA do anything. Especially if he eventually returns to the prime timeline. I don't think Loki would work as a full-on hero, btw, but there should be some growth from where he is now, since he saw the "film" of his life and seemed genuinely moved by how things turned out before Thanos killed him.

[Wynterwolf]

On 6/14/2021 at 2:57 PM, SnarkShark said:

Someone saying it was okay doesn't mean it was okay.  It's the theory of the unreliable narrative. The judge saying its true doesn't mean its true.  The Timekeepers (if they actually said it and it hasn't been twisted along the way) saying it doesn't mean it's true.  We're just being TOLD that people have said or claim to believe those things. And we don't even know for sure if Steve's later trip was included in that.  Loki was specifically bringing up the events that affected him personally.

Yeah, I agree. And I don't even think it matters much whether Steve created a new timeline, or if it was a time loop (though now I get why M&M originally wrote it as a loop, even though you have to ignore a lot of logistical issues if you buy that), or he did something else (because after this ep, there are a ton of possibilities including EG Steve himself being from an alternate timeline they allowed to grow, where him 'returning the stone' was actually him going back to his original timeline). 

In any case, it was engineered by the TVA and the end result was to take Steve off the board starting from the point he left to 'return the stones' (who knows who the wrinkly dude was, he literally could have been anyone/thing). And since I can imagine every version of Steve being as much of a pain to the TVA with frequent variant activity as Loki probably is, I can imagine them devising a way to just park "sacred" timeline him somewhere after he fulfilled what they needed him to, so they wouldn't have to deal with him anymore. 

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I suppose. Doesn't answer my larger question, though. Is Loki to be held responsible for nothing he's done? Unless the original version was an idiot, he had to have known that Thanos was up to no good, and he fell in with him anyway because of his desire for power and to prove that he was superior to Thor. Saying now, "Well, the TVA meant for him to do that" whether it was to stab Coulson in the back or inadvertently cause his mother's death is an escape hatch, IMO. If his moral weaknesses don't come into play here and he doesn't learn something, then he's a poor candidate to help the TVA do anything. Especially if he eventually returns to the prime timeline. I don't think Loki would work as a full-on hero, btw, but there should be some growth from where he is now, since he saw the "film" of his life and seemed genuinely moved by how things turned out before Thanos killed him.

He absolutely is held responsible for what he's done.  It's a minor spoiler for the next episode, but

Spoiler

one thing Mobius tells Loki is that there are more variants of him than anyone else.  So while "Original Loki" did what he was "supposed" to do and 2012 Loki varied only after leading the attack on NYC (and killing Coulson and gouging out that guy's eye)a considerable number of Lokis did not choose to do those things.  Maybe they did worse things, maybe better things, but the fact remains that they ultimately chose not to follow the TVA playbook.  Granted that their only reward was getting murdered by the TVA, but they still had a choice.

 

[khyber]

Would I be able to make any sense of this series if I have never watched any of the Marvel movies, etc. ?

[SnarkShark]

58 minutes ago, khyber said:

Would I be able to make any sense of this series if I have never watched any of the Marvel movies, etc. ?

A hard "no". 

[SherriAnt]

I've chosen to ignore the timey wimey stuff, and just focus on Loki's redemption (?) arc. Tom just does such a fantastic job acting with only his facial  expressions!

[Ailianna]

7 hours ago, khyber said:

Would I be able to make any sense of this series if I have never watched any of the Marvel movies, etc. ?

If you pay attention to the show, it really does give you all the background you need to follow along. If you're interested you should give it a try.

[Scarlett45]

I decided to wait to start this to binge a few episodes at once. The opening was solid. I am digging Tom Hiddleston as Loki (of course!!) and I was surprised to see Wunmi Mosaku! I loved her in Lovecraft Country. 
 

This series should be really good, Owen and Tom have a great bit of chemistry. 

[JustHereForFood]

I finally decided to watch this and I like it so far. I really liked the animated sequence explaining the TVA and all those bureaucracy jokes, like the tiket and that airport-like queue. 

[Ilovepie]

On 6/17/2021 at 7:03 AM, khyber said:

Would I be able to make any sense of this series if I have never watched any of the Marvel movies, etc. ?

I've never seen any Avengers movies and I am watching it. Pay attention to the Miss Minutes scene. If you want to analyze with the posters here, you probably need the movies because I have no idea what anybody posting here is talking about! ;-p

On 6/17/2021 at 12:11 PM, SherriAnt said:

I've chosen to ignore the timey wimey stuff, and just focus on Loki's redemption (?) arc. Tom just does such a fantastic job acting with only his facial  expressions!

This is exactly what I am doing! Time travel stuff hurts my head. I prefer a Jeremy Bearimy approach to my timeline explanations........

[Sandman]

On 6/9/2021 at 8:38 AM, Featherhat said:

The MCU continues to use Thor:TDW better in flashbacks and reimaginings than they did the actual film (and I'm one of the crazy ones that doesn't hate it).

You can come sit by me if you want; not hating Thor: The Dark World doesn't seem crazy to me. (Full disclosure: I think Thor: Ragnarok is by far the worst thing in the MCU: an irretrievable tonal mess that treats its main character with scorn, and I think I'm considered crazy for that -- so you may not want to sit near me!)

[Bruinsfan]

I wouldn't go that far, but I wasn't a big fan. There are a good number of really cool moments (hence one of the most awesome teaser-trailers of all time), but the whole is a mess.

[johntfs]

On 7/7/2021 at 8:57 AM, Sandman said:

You can come sit by me if you want; not hating Thor: The Dark World doesn't seem crazy to me. (Full disclosure: I think Thor: Ragnarok is by far the worst thing in the MCU: an irretrievable tonal mess that treats its main character with scorn, and I think I'm considered crazy for that -- so you may not want to sit near me!)

I liked Ragnorak because you got more of Thor's actual personality aside from big, blond Thunder dude with a Hammer.  I mean just this scene:

Plus at the end Hiddleston's little "Ah, those were the good old days" smile.

[Sandman]

On 7/7/2021 at 10:08 AM, Bruinsfan said:

There are a good number of really cool moments (hence one of the most awesome teaser-trailers of all time), but the whole is a mess.

Well, the "He's a friend from work!" set piece is delightful (I'm not made of flint, people) -- but I think that's largely due to Hemsworth's charm. I also laughed at Sir Anthony playing Loki playing Odin. But so many of the characters had to act so completely out of character that a lot of the jokes -- that the script was so clearly striving mightily for -- fell flat for me.

And don't even get me started on Jeff Goldblum's ... whatever it was he was doing.

ETA: Sorry for straying off the topic of Loki's glorious ... befuddlement.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Sandman

[formerlyfreedom]

The spot to discuss Marvel movies in this forum is here, so please head over there and leave this topic for episode discussion. Thank you!