S02.E07: The Longest Day

[Milaxx]

I actually thought she got stutter-y because she was being called out on how it sounded.  I agree that it wasn't clear that Marianna was actually thinking that or at least not in a conscious way.  The remainder of the episode seemed to indicate that she feels inadequate and that nothing about dance comes naturally to her so that she may have meant it more benignly and just got awkward when the girl took it as race based.

 

That's the thing with microaggressions. They can so often be easily rationalized. I think Mariana is indeed clueless enough to not only think that the reason that Tia is so good id because of some "all black people can dance" myth and to actually speak those words out loud. The thought that she could get better with hard work is not something she believes because her low self esteem doesn't allow her to believe in herself. This is partly why she's still trying to call in favors with Lena instead of working to improve her dancing.

[KaveDweller]

I thought she only started thinking that because she overheard one of the other girls say it. But I might be remembering that wrong.

 

No, that's correct.  She heard the Kaitlin girl telling her friend they let Marianna on the team because she was latino.  Since Kaitlin was trying to make her feel better, I'm not sure why she didn't just tell her friend about the principal's kid thing, but this was more dramatic.   I didn't think Marianna was being racist in that scene with Tia (?) though.  I think she really just meant dancing in general doesn't come natually to her, and was surprised when it was suggested otherwise.  I was surprised the other girl let it go so quickly just because she found out Marianna's mother's black though.

 

It just seems completely unrealistic that we had Callie's arrival, B&C falling for each other, Stef & Lena deciding to adopt, Stef getting shot, the decision to adopt, Stef recovering to be strong enough for a wedding, Callie running way, Wyatt leaves, all the Girls United stuff, moving Callie back in after she and Brandon split, Wyatt returns, finalizing Jude's adoption, Brandon's injury, the time jump after the injury between 1B and 2A where Callie and Wyatt got hot and heavy, looking for Robert, finding Robert, losing the baby, and now the Dani reveal all in a supposedly six month timeframe. And in addition to being unrealistic, it undercuts how embedded we're supposed to believe Callie has become in the family.

 

I don't think that much drama has happened to my family in my entire life.

[izabella]

The remainder of the episode seemed to indicate that she feels inadequate and that nothing about dance comes naturally to her so that she may have meant it more benignly and just got awkward when the girl took it as race based.

 

It makes me wonder why Mariana was so hot to join the dance team when it's not something that comes naturally to her.  I mean, I've always liked to dance, but I'm not awesome at remembering steps and with lots of types of dances, so I would never try out for a dance team no matter how much I like dancing.  I love singing but can't carry a tune, so ditto on choir. 

 

Did Mariana join the team just to be popular, or at least part of a popular group at school?  Are they popular? 

 

Or maybe whatever Mariana was doing with the drama group didn't work, so this was next on the list?  Will she try nerd band next?

[RachelKM]

I'm right there with you on the Brallie nausea. I really hope that they are setting the stage for an open adoption where Stef and Lena adopt Callie - and the Quinns are allowed access to her if she wishes. It would be a real contrast to the situation with Ana and the twins (although I think that may be about to change too) and would show how an open adoption coming out of the foster care system works. I cannot fathom that TPTB want the message here to be that,if you foster a teenage girl, you had better take care if you have a teenage son because they might become romantically involved.

And open adoption situation is my fervent hope as well.  So far I think the Quinns seem like generally good people and have the potential to be positive additions to Callie and, hopefully, Jude's lives.  But I do not want to see that at the expense of a familial relationship with the Fosters, particularly seeing as Jude has been adopted and is, thus, part of the Foster family.

 

And while adoption is not the only way to become a family, the lack of it in Callie's world has had consequences.  And just like marriage, adoption is a way of holding out to the world and legitimizing/formalizing of relationship that has emotional value.  So I do think failing to have Callie adopted by the Fosters, for whatever reason, would be a failing by the show.

 

It makes me wonder why Mariana was so hot to join the dance team when it's not something that comes naturally to her.  I mean, I've always liked to dance, but I'm not awesome at remembering steps and with lots of types of dances, so I would never try out for a dance team no matter how much I like dancing.  I love singing but can't carry a tune, so ditto on choir.

 

Did Mariana join the team just to be popular, or at least part of a popular group at school?  Are they popular?

 

Or maybe whatever Mariana was doing with the drama group didn't work, so this was next on the list?  Will she try nerd band next?

 

 

 

My take on Mariana is that she is sort of flailing a bit at trying to define herself.  She is insecure and looking for where she fits to help her with her overall need for an identity.  Unfortunately, since the pilot, she has sought the answer to who she is outside of herself, though her bitchy friend, Ana, drama, and now the dance team.  It seems the dance team does consist of set of reasonably popular girls.  But they are also a team and something to belong to which also seems to be something Mariana craves.  

Edited July 29, 2014 by RachelKM

[izabella]

I agree with everyone about 6 months being a ridiculous time frame for all that's happened on the show. However, keep in mind that they'll want to keep the kids as young as possible for as long as possible so that the adoption will carry a lot of weight.

 

They've got a losing task in front of them - Jesus is practically twice the size he was when the show started, and so is Jude.

[Geo]

I thought that the Brandon reveal was very well done. Loved how Lena was the voice of reason constantly reminding them that they had agreed not to leave the house until the 3 of them had figured it out together. Quite a contrast from the earlier co-parenting debacles both in 1A and with the hand surgery. Stef and Mike's conversation about their marriage was long overdue. Lena is right about Stef - she does "love hard". I really liked when Stef mentioned to Lena that this was probably the reason why Brandon went to Lena instead of to her - and Lena did not respond.

 

I particularly liked how Stef asked Mike how he would feel if the underage participant here was Mariana. Thought that the show did a great job showing the double standard for a teenage boy involved with an adult female.

 

 

I think all three actors did a wonderful job. That whole reveal and the fallout that came after was handled a lot better than I was expecting. Lena handled everything perfectly and demonstrated once again why Brandon was smart to go to her first. (OK, I suppose it was more the pot brownies talking than any rational bit of thought but there is a reason he called her when he needed help and not Stef). I love that Stef and Mike were able to talk things out at the end.  I am also so, so happy that they actually had Mike bring up his drinking in relation to Brandon.  I was really hoping that they wouldn't let that drop.  Mike is right, children of alcoholics need to be especially careful when it comes to drinking and I like that the show touched on that.  Also, Stef using Mariana as an example to get the point across was brilliant.

 

Every time I am tempted to give up on this show because of the silly teen drama they have an amazing scene like this and remind me all over again why I started watching in the first place.

 

Hayley and Sophia are both Cray-Cray.  The only question I have now is which one will fly their crazy flag first.

 

So help me if we suffer through all of this angst and Callie doesn't end up adopted by the Fosters I will cut somebody!

Edited July 29, 2014 by Geo

[GildedLily]

And open adoption situation is my fervent hope as well.  So far I think the Quinns seem like generally good people and have the potential to be positive additions to Callie and, hopefully, Jude's lives.  But I do not want to see that at the expense of a familial relationship with the Fosters, particularly seeing as Jude has been adopted and is, thus, part of the Foster family.

 

And while adoption is not the only way to become a family, the lack of it in Callie's world has had consequences.  And just like marriage, adoption is a way of holding out to the world and legitimizing/formalizing of relationship that has emotional value.  So I do think failing to have Callie adopted by the Fosters, for whatever reason, would be a failing by the show.

 

 

 

I don't think anything will cut off the familial relationship Callie has with Fosters. I think the whole show at its core is about Callie finding a family with them. I think the Quinns were brought on not solely to get us back to Brallie but because it opens the door to a lot of potential drama. We've already seen that with Callie/Jude, Stef seeming uncomfortable around Robert calling Callie his daughter, the discovery of a possibly troubled new sister, how this girl who for a long time had nothing and no one but Jude adjusts to having a wealthy bio father and an abundance of people who love her. They've only ever so lightly implicitly touched on the impact that this new branch of family could have on the Brandon and Callie romance if that. They certainly will eventually but I don't think the writers dreamed this up for the sole purpose of pleasing the Brallie4Ever fans (And I say this as a non tween/teen  member of the Brallie4Ever fan club). 

 

Your paragraph on adoption as a way to hold Callie out to the world as a member of the family is interesting. I totally see the point and yet kind of disagree that not going through with the adoption would be a failing. Brandon has zero legal relationship to Lena. They see each other as parent/child but a lot of the world sees her as at most a stepmother now that S&L are married. When there was the whole issue of her being annoyed at being left out of the surgery decision, someone I watch with said "This is ridiculous. He's their [Mike and Stef's] kid and she has no say." Some people will see it differently/more progressively but I don't think that view is so uncommon. And at any point during their relationship and even now, Stef could walk away with and cut off Lena's access to Brandon even though she did a lot more of the parenting than Mike and she'd be facing an uphill legal battle for even visitation. So my point is there's already one example on the show where we've seen that legal nomenclature and/or DNA isn't necessary to create family bonds. And I think they can get there with Callie too without it straying from the overarching theme of the show.

 

Additionally, I've never liked that Stef & Lena who are shown to be so smart and real in how they deal with these kids decided they could wave a wand over B&C and magically turn them from rolling around Daphne's floor to siblings over 5 episodes last season. I've never thought it should mean they couldn't love her as their child (and I think they do view her no differently than any of the other four) but I feel like they should have had more pause over creating a legal sibling relationship with them. The whole question seemed to be magically swept under the rug at least from their perspective pretty quickly. 

[Turkish]

 

I have seen Sophia in another role, but can't remember what.

She also plays the younger version of Snow on Once Upon a Time, which is another case of perfect casting because Bailey Madison looks so much like Ginnifer Goodwin and has all of Snow's mannerisms down pat too. 

 

Someone mentioned Mike getting romantically involved with Ana and I could totally see the show going there. Not sure how I feel about that yet.

 

I took that final scene with Sophia and Robert to mean that we could be heading towards Robert not signing the papers and challenging the adoption. I also thought Jill was kind of being a little sketchy with Jude. Maybe I'm reading too much into the scene but she seemed like she was fishing for information. I definitely think Sophia will start to with  Callie if she's really dead-set on her becoming apart of the family in a more permanent way. Sophia is disturbing and needs therapy. I can't tell if Jill is being a pushy mom with her or if she's aware that Sophia might have "issues" and that's why she hovers so much. 

 

 

When there was the whole issue of her being annoyed at being left out of the surgery decision, someone I watch with said "This is ridiculous. He's their [Mike and Stef's] kid and she has no say."

Do you think they would have said that if Lena were a guy and a legal step-parent to Brandon? I don't know why Lena wouldn't have a say. She has helped raise him since he was five just like the twins.  He considers her a mom and even calls her mother "grandma" and the rest of the kids are his siblings. It's not the first time I've heard people say that about Lena I just don't get that rationale tbh. The only conclusion I can come up with is because she's a woman. I think some people might see it differently if Lena were a man and had been married to Stef and raising Brandon this whole time. Especially considering that, by his own admission, Mike didn't do much parenting when he was growing up and instead left it to Lena and Stef. 

Edited July 30, 2014 by Turkish

[possibilities]

I don't think that much drama has happened to my family in my entire life.

Don't forget the Quincinera, the drama over Lexi having sex with Jesus/the morning after pill/her family leaving the country, Mariana getting her first boyfriend and then his mom having Alzheimers and so he has to move out of state to live with his dad, Jude and Connor, Mariana and the panties in the pocket incident, Jesus trying to go off his ADD meds, the Liam trial, Brandon's lawbreaking/handbreaking....

 

It makes me wonder why Mariana was so hot to join the dance team when it's not something that comes naturally to her.

I signed up to go on a ski trip when I'd never been skiing, so I don't find that so strange. Turns out I am not meant to ski, and I had a terrible time, but I don't think it's lacking credibility that she'd want to try out for something she liked, either not knowing how hard it would be or just because she wanted to be part of it. We've also seen her dabble in slam poetry, and join the play's tech department because she wanted to get closer to a boy. Maybe she wanted to get closer to this group of girls, and she thought dance was cool, and so she tried joining, and only after they gave her a spot did she realize how much work it was/how much better at it the other girls on the team seemed to be.

 

they'll want to keep the kids as young as possible for as long as possible

That's a good point. It's hard to believe so little time has passed, but I don't want them aging out of the household, either, so I guess I can pretend time works differently for this reason.

 

This show is slowly turning me into a Terri Polo fangirl.

Seriously-- I saw her in Meet The Fockers and she made no impression. But she's really something here. I had thought she was kind of a cookie cutter actress but dead behind the eyes. Now I think every tiniest movement she makes crackles with meaning.

Actually, this is a great cast in general. I had never seen any of them in anything else, but almost every single one of them does a great job (especially among the adults, but even most of the kids are impressive).

 

Whenever Sophia made her comment about it being a good thing if she'd never been born, my mind immediately jumped to: she's cutting herself.

That is definitely the kind of thing this show might tackle. I'm not sure if they're planning to develop the Quinns into main characters with their own dramas or not, or if they will fade like Girls United did once Callie resolved her need to be there. But if they do make them regulars, I could see them going there with Sophia.

Mariana apparently doesn't think practicing will make her better because she's not naturally talented, but: doesn't she live with Brandon, the naturally gifted pianist who (until his beatdown) practiced all.the.damn.time? Wouldn't that be a living breathing example that natural talent will only get you so far? Why is this a lesson she needs to learn?

Because she has low self-esteem. Thus: I am no good and I can't get better. It's a defeatest attitude but I've seen it-- people like this give up and assume there are different rules for them, so that they fail no matter what. It's not rational.

 

I actually think the show is clever to have set it up so that Marianna's attitude can be plausibly construed either way. It just seems implausible to me that she would be harboring ridiculous stereotypical racist ideas coming from the family she comes from, or at least it's not more plausible that she'd be that way than that she'd have low self-esteem and a defeatist attitude about herself. She's already definitely been shown to be shy and insecure, trying to fit in in numerous situations, to her detriment. That also seems odd, given that she painted Jude's nails for him, and is able to at least pay lip service to self-worth for non-conformists and females, as demonstrated by her support of Jude and lecturing of Jesus. But then, I think it's not uncommon for people to have double standards like that, where they can clearly see right from wrong as it applies to other people, but their self-esteem issues prevent them from applying the same values on their own behalf. No, it's not rational. It's messed up for sure, either way.

 

I hope they continue to go their own way without having to do what every other show does.

Me too. I have been burned by TV too many times to trust completely that they will, but they've surprised me a lot so far, and I'm getting more hopeful about it. This is why I am sticking my fingers in my ears and closing my eyes and affirming that the Quinns are not a set up to enable Callie and Brandon to be a couple. I really hope I'm right, but I have watched enough television to understand why some people think that's still the plan.

[SparklesBitch]

Do you think they would have said that if Lena were a guy and a legal step-parent to Brandon? I don't know why Lena wouldn't have a say. She has helped raise him since he was five just like the twins.  He considers her a mom and even calls her mother "grandma" and the rest of the kids are his siblings. It's not the first time I've heard people say that about Lena I just don't get that rationale tbh. The only conclusion I can come up with is because she's a woman. I think some people might see it differently if Lena were a man and had been married to Stef and raising Brandon this whole time. Especially considering that, by his own admission, Mike didn't do much parenting when he was growing up and instead left it to Lena and Stef. 

 

First, I agree that Lena should have just as much of a say in parenting decisions with regard to Brandon as Mike and Stef do...after all, she's done the majority of the parenting with Stef since Brandon was kindergarten age. I don't think the opposite opinion has much to do with Lena being a woman, though. I think it has more to do with the fact that Mike, who is Brandon's other biological parent, is still around and involved. It may be later than everyone would have liked, but he has turned himself around and is an involved parent now. Yes, Stef has legal custody and she and Lena are legally married now (yay for equal rights!) but it's not as if Mike gave up his legal rights as Brandon's father. It's not as if Lena legally adopted Brandon. I think maybe people who feel that major decisions regarding Brandon should be all up to Stef and Mike might feel differently if Mike was completely absent and/or had his legal rights as Brandon's parent stripped (or even gave them up himself), and then that resulted in Lena legally adopted him, making her (legally speaking) his second parent.

 

I'm just guessing here, and I could be completely wrong, but as far as I can see it, that's the only way that point of view (Lena not having any say) makes any kind of sense. Maybe it would make more sense to me if I was a parent? I have no clue.

 

Lastly, on a different note, I just rewatched this episode and noticed there was something interesting in the way Jill Quinn just kind of pauses when she hears how many schools Callie has attended in the last few years. Pity, maybe?

[RachelKM]

I don't think anything will cut off the familial relationship Callie has with Fosters. I think the whole show at its core is about Callie finding a family with them. I think the Quinns were brought on not solely to get us back to Brallie but because it opens the door to a lot of potential drama. We've already seen that with Callie/Jude, Stef seeming uncomfortable around Robert calling Callie his daughter, the discovery of a possibly troubled new sister, how this girl who for a long time had nothing and no one but Jude adjusts to having a wealthy bio father and an abundance of people who love her. They've only ever so lightly implicitly touched on the impact that this new branch of family could have on the Brandon and Callie romance if that. They certainly will eventually but I don't think the writers dreamed this up for the sole purpose of pleasing the Brallie4Ever fans (And I say this as a non tween/teen  member of the Brallie4Ever fan club). 

 

Your paragraph on adoption as a way to hold Callie out to the world as a member of the family is interesting. I totally see the point and yet kind of disagree that not going through with the adoption would be a failing. Brandon has zero legal relationship to Lena. They see each other as parent/child but a lot of the world sees her as at most a stepmother now that S&L are married. When there was the whole issue of her being annoyed at being left out of the surgery decision, someone I watch with said "This is ridiculous. He's their [Mike and Stef's] kid and she has no say." Some people will see it differently/more progressively but I don't think that view is so uncommon. And at any point during their relationship and even now, Stef could walk away with and cut off Lena's access to Brandon even though she did a lot more of the parenting than Mike and she'd be facing an uphill legal battle for even visitation. So my point is there's already one example on the show where we've seen that legal nomenclature and/or DNA isn't necessary to create family bonds. And I think they can get there with Callie too without it straying from the overarching theme of the show.

 

Additionally, I've never liked that Stef & Lena who are shown to be so smart and real in how they deal with these kids decided they could wave a wand over B&C and magically turn them from rolling around Daphne's floor to siblings over 5 episodes last season. I've never thought it should mean they couldn't love her as their child (and I think they do view her no differently than any of the other four) but I feel like they should have had more pause over creating a legal sibling relationship with them. The whole question seemed to be magically swept under the rug at least from their perspective pretty quickly. 

While I  agree that I don't love the way the show or L&S handled Brallie from top to bottom and the idea that it can be converted to familial instantaneously* is sort of dumb, I don't think you can compare Lena vis-à-vis Brandon to Callie vis-à-vis the Fosters. As I said, adoption isn't the only way to become or establish a family.  However, for Callie in particular, it matters.  

 

In Brandon's case, it doesn't seem that there was ever a question of Mike being a parent and the law simply doesn't accommodate 3 equal in rights parents.  In his case, he always had at least two parents and got a third.  And for the most part, he completely views her as his parent as do Stef and Mike.  While, yes, Stef and Mike have shut Lena out as a third, Lena and Stef did that to Mike in S1.  So it doesn't seem that there is and emotional distinction so much as a occasional awkward triangulation.  And again, as long as Mike is a parent, there is nothing but step-parenthood as a legal option for Lena.

 

Contrast that with Callie who has for the last 6 years had NO parents.  And her lack of parents has been a source of turmoil in her life.  She has been at best and almost member of families during that time. Her only stable familial relationship is Jude who has since been adopted.  So the absence of adoption for Callie is much more of an emotional statement.  Thus , for me, contextually Callie's lack of adoption within the narrative of the show would be a failing of the shows themes.

 

* I think it could be over time and that is what I would like to see. 

Edited July 30, 2014 by RachelKM

[stopeslite]

I just had an awful idea - what if Sophie has some kind of medical condition that requires a blood/tissue match donor, and they all think Callie might be it? That could explain how much Sophie is clinging to Callie, and why her dad hasn't signed away rights yet - he might be holding that as a trade for her assistance to Sophie. Ugh, it makes me sick to think about. But I wouldn't put it past this show.

[LisaM]

I would really like to see Sophia spend a day at the Foster house and interact particularly with Mariana. Would be interesting for her to see other kids in a lighter, more jovial family setting. (of course, she would have to come without her nanny.)

[Bringonthedrama]

The Quinn parts of this episode showed - in my opinion - that all 3 in the family feel more relaxed and open to Callie and Jude being a part of their lives. I agree with a previous poster that Jill questioning Jude is a set up for the Quinns finding out about the B&C romance - but also she wanted to get a sense of Callie's feelings about her foster family, and her stability as a person. She now knows Callie previously had an "unfit" foster father and ended up in juvie, has been to 7 schools, and only recently found out about her biological father and sister. I think she appreciates that despite clearly having a rough life so far, she's at heart a good kid who is being kind and open to Sophia - even saying positive things about the school Sophia is bashing (which I assume Jill and Robert picked for their daughter).

 

I got the impression that Jill clearly saw having Callie (and Jude, too) there as part of the family for the day made Robert and Sophia very happy, and Callie has no desire to influence Sophia away from the Quinn values, so she's becoming more open toward her. We're already seeing that Sophia would like her dad to fight for legal custody of Callie ... I wonder if Jill will also pressure Robert, thinking that they can give Callie the most stable home, best education, and that Jude could visit whenever he wants as sort of an honorary son/bonus child to the Quinns. I caught a vibe that Robert already feels a little attached to Jude, knowing the boy is his daughter's brother and his late love's son. 

[Turkish]

 

I would really like to see Sophia spend a day at the Foster house and interact particularly with Mariana.

I fear they would only make her another potential fling for Jesus and that is the last thing we need. I do think she would end up really liking Mariana if they ever met though. 

[GildedLily]

While I agree that I don't love the way the show or L&S handled Brallie from top to bottom and the idea that it can be converted to familial instantaneously* is sort of dumb, I don't think you can compare Lena vis-à-vis Brandon to Callie vis-à-vis the Fosters. As I said, adoption isn't the only way to become or establish a family. However, for Callie in particular, it matters.

In Brandon's case, it doesn't seem that there was ever a question of Mike being a parent and the law simply doesn't accommodate 3 equal in rights parents. In his case, he always had at least two parents and got a third. And for the most part, he completely views her as his parent as do Stef and Mike. While, yes, Stef and Mike have shut Lena out as a third, Lena and Stef did that in S1. So it doesn't seem that there is and emotional distinction so much as a occasional awkward triangulation. And again, as long as Mike is a parent, there is nothing but step-parenthood as a legal option for Lena.

Contrast that with Callie who has for the last 6 years had NO parents. And her lack of parents has been a source of turmoil in her life. She has been at best and almost member of families during that time. Her only stable familial relationship is Jude who has since been adopted. So the absence of adoption for Callie is much more of an emotional statement. Thus , for me, contextually Callie's lack of adoption with in the narrative of the show would be a failing of the shows themes.

* I think it could be over time and that is what I would like to see.

I can appreciate the differences you pointed out in Callie's situation in contrast to B's lack of a legal relationship to Lena. We obviously have major fundamental differences in how we see the show which is what makes posting here interesting.

And I appreciated the need for Callie to be formally adopted and have her legal status secure when the threat of being thrown back into the foster system was omnipresent. See ep 1 of this season. Robert's existence largely eliminates this issue.

I want Callie to remain with the Fosters too. I love her relationships with them especially Stef and Mariana. And I think to move her entirely out of their house would absolutely undercut the central tenet of the show. But I don't think she necessarily needs to be adopted. I think she is already a member of that family in ever way that counts. And I think an arc where she realizes that while also making room for Robert in her heart could be powerful.

I think the arrival of Robert raises interesting questions. Is it fair to ask this man who never knew about his child to surrender all rights to her to people who the show keeps telling us she's only been with for six months? Does this give Brandon and Callie who broke up for no other reason than she felt this was her one chance to be part of a family an opportunity to reevaluate now and maybe have an actual shot now that the options aren't as black and white as adoption or Callie on her own? Would Callie not being adopted fundamentally alter something with her and Jude or would it be as inconsequential for her as the reveal that they're "only" half siblings and could she make Jude see it that way?

I'm not sure where the show will go with all of it. Like I said before I don't think the Quinn's were brought on solely for the purpose of reviving Brallie. But I'll personally be thrilled if the door opens again because for me they've been my hook with the show since their bus ride to get Jude. I respectfully disagree that they could ever really forge a sibling relationship* and I don't think it would ring true to anything we saw the first season. I guess whether the show should have went there with them is another debate but they did and I don't think a sibling relationship could ever feel genuine without a lot of longing/what might have been hanging in the air.

*i realize that I'm largely alone in my view on Brallie at least on this forum. While I find it kind of frightening that my perspective aligns more with the tween/teen fans than the smart, articulate fans here, it is what it is :)

Edited July 30, 2014 by maraleia
spell out your words

[Eeksquire]

 

 

 

 

I have seen Sophia in another role, but can't remember what.

She also plays the younger version of Snow on Once Upon a Time, which is another case of perfect casting because Bailey Madison looks so much like Ginnifer Goodwin and has all of Snow's mannerisms down pat too.

She also played the daughter in Trophy Wife.

 

 

It just seems implausible to me that she would be harboring ridiculous stereotypical racist ideas coming from the family she comes from, or at least it's not more plausible that she'd be that way than that she'd have low self-esteem and a defeatist attitude about herself.

I don't know about that - it seems like there is something of an undercurrent in the family as to whether Lena is "black enough" for her mother - a lot of their tension at the quincenara (which I still cannot spell!) was about how Lena was made to feel that she didn't fit in with either the black community of her mother because her skin was too light or the white community of her father because her skin was too dark.  Even if that's not something that was ever openly discussed with the kids, that's the kind of thing that hangs in the air and kids can pick up on it.  (For example, the first time we meet Lena's mom, the first words out of her mouth upon entering the house are "you're too pale, you need some sun!" to Lena.)

 

I hope we're not regressing to Brallie, if only because I fear that the writers will use their respective rapes as a bonding experience to make them both comfortable enough to have sex.  Yuck.  Even the thought of that makes me a little barfy.

[LisaM]

 

I hope we're not regressing to Brallie, if only because I fear that the writers will use their respective rapes as a bonding experience to make them both comfortable enough to have sex.  Yuck.  Even the thought of that makes me a little barfy.

Oh wow....I didn't even think of that.

 

I just can't wrap my brain around a scenario where Callie is even just considered a member of the family - not formally adopted but de facto adopted - and is still romantically involved with her de facto brother. It may not be legally incestuous but it is too creepy to contemplate. I am so hoping that the show doesn't go there again because I would have to FF all of those scenes and I really like watching Callie scenes.

[Turkish]

 I agree. They would have to go right back to sneaking around again because I can't see the parents ever approving of Callie and Brandon dating. Whether she is formally adopted or not, Stef and Lena already consider her a daughter and they now share Jude as a brother. 

 

I really wish Stef and Lena would sit Jesus down and have a talk with him about both his behavior with girls and his sexual activity. If this were Mariana I have a hard believing they would be encouraging her sexual activity with three different guys in a short span of time. Of course it's likely they don't know all the details about what he has been doing. Jesus has been with three different girls now that he has treated like shit before falling in love with the next chick. I might be more concerned about that than the sexual activity because at least he has the good sense to use protection. 

Edited July 30, 2014 by Turkish

[teenj12]

If Callie's not adopted, I'm tempted to go as far as to not watch this show any longer, because whatever the circumstances, the idea of her not being adopted will always trace right back to Brallie. Callie has gone through so much with the time she's been with the Fosters, and they have really helped her to break the walls she's put up with giving her all of the love and support in the world. She damn right deserves to be a Foster, and no Brallie shipper or Robert apologist can ever tell me otherwise.

Edited August 5, 2014 by teenj12

[GildedLily]

 I agree. They would have to go right back to sneaking around again because I can't see the parents ever approving of Callie and Brandon dating. Whether she is formally adopted or not, Stef and Lena already consider her a daughter and they now share Jude as a brother. 

I'm not sure I agree. Stef & Lena are pretty progressive and understanding almost to a point where it's comical given how much drama (and on multiple occasions actual illegal activity) surrounds the kids. Especially Lena. I thought her most real Mom moment was when she snapped at the twins last week. I think in time they could come to understand that B&C are a different situation than B & Mariana would be- they weren't raised together, they never did and don't view one another as siblings and they're almost 18. And I think had the Brandon and Callie thing been revealed under a different circumstances- where she hadn't run away, where Brandon hadn't initially kept his mouth shut about why, if Callie hadn't ended up back in juvy- they might have eventually (although not immediately) been more accepting.

 

 

If Callie's not adopted, I'm tempted to go as far as to not watch this show any longer, because whatever the circumstances, the idea of her not being adopted will always trace right back to Brallie. Callie has gone through so much with the time she's been with the Fosters, and they have really helped her to break the walls she's put up with giving her all of the love and support in the world. She damn right deserves to be a Foster, and no Brallie shipper of Robert apologist can ever tell me otherwise.

I agree Callie deserves to be a Foster if that's what she wants.; And I think the only way the adoption won't go through will ultimately be if she opts out herself. I don't think we're going to see Stef and Lena on the losing end of a custody battle or telling her they won't adopt her because of a Brallie redux. At this point, it looks like she's set on the adoption but I think a ton of stuff may go down with the Quinns by the finale so we'll see if things change. The show is a family drama but it's also serialized television (on a network whose target demo is young adults) and I just don't see them nealy tying up the adoption issue and ending Brallie forevermore (essentially two of the shows biggest plots from the outset) when they're hoping for a season 3.

 

I saw a recent interview with the producers where it seems like the goal of bringing on the Quinns is to create a genuine debate about where Callie belongs. It's an interesting watch if you have a minute and it made me view 2x07 through kind of a different lens.

http://www.etonline.com/tv/148970_exclusive_the_fosters_which_family_will_callie_choose_watch_now/

Edited July 30, 2014 by GildedLily

[Eeksquire]

 

And I think had the Brandon and Callie thing been revealed under a different circumstances- where she hadn't run away, where Brandon hadn't initially kept his mouth shut about why, if Callie hadn't ended up back in juvy- they might have eventually (although not immediately) been more accepting.

I don't think that Callie running away was the first inkling they had of their relationship - Stef gave Brandon a talking-to pretty early on in the proceedings about how foster siblings were not allowed to "hook up".  I think the only way that Brallie could be maybe-kinda-sorta acceptable to me would be if Callie does indeed go with Robert and his family and then is treated as a de facto daughter-in-law of the Fosters.  That's still gross to me, considering the circumstances under which they met, but I guess weirder things have happened.  I still don't really like it, because for that to be the scenario, Callie has to throw over Jude, which I don't think would be true to the character.  Plus, anytime any show (or book or movie, etc.) that is set in contemporary times expects me to believe that anyone has found their One True Love in high school I have a problem with it.  I know people do it, but there's a whole lot of reasons why things don't usually work out that way, and in this case in particular, it would be a good idea for Callie to have a little time and space to grow up and find some kind of stability where she isn't being ping-ponged around from place to place and house to house and relationship to relationship for awhile before she settles down with anyone.

[AmeliaBedelia]

I personally don't think Callie has to be adopted in order to be part of the family. However, her relationship with Robert and Sophia takes time away from the Foster household scenes which are my favorite part of the show.

I really enjoyed this episode. The brandon, mike, stef, Lena scenes were so intriguing. I kept getting mad when other scenes were playing out because I wanted to get back to the action.

The romantic relationships for the kids on this show are hard to get attached to. I absolutely love brandon and callie as best friends. That needs to keep happening despite anything else that may go on.

[truthaboutluv]

GildedLily, I feel bad that you feel like the only one who ships Brallie on here. I don't ship them but honestly, I just don't care enough to be that outraged by it. I feel like the show has greater issues than that, not to mention that like I stated in another post, in my humble opinion, the Callie/Brandon thing was blatantly telegraphed in the pilot episode. Seriously, there were multiple comments discussing it in the old TWOP board after the first episode aired so honestly, if it's that much of an ethical or moral issue to some, my advice was that it would probably have been best to stop watching then. It's just like how it took me two seasons to start watching The Vampire Diaries because just based on the previews and show description, I knew the show would be heavily based on a love triangle which I hate.

 

The reality is the Callie/Brandon situation is there - now I've said I think the writers did too much too soon with it but the reality is it's not going to go away forever and they're likely never going to effectively put a kibosh on it unless maybe this show goes well into a S5 and S6. But for right now, it's not happening and media interviews I've seen and read from the writers and some of the actors makes that very obvious. So again, my thing is if it's something one finds so morally offensive, then yeah probably best to stop watching. Again personally don't ship it but no I'm not really that offended or creeped out or whatever else by it. Cousins legally marry each other in some states in this country. I'm going to be that upset by two 16 year olds who've known each other all of 7 months, according to this show's wacky timeline, being sexually attracted to each other? 

[LisaM]

I can't conceive of a scenario where Callie would willingly leave Jude. I think it would have been a much more interesting situation if Jude had not been adopted by the Fosters when the Quinns came on the scene. I could see Robert offering a home for both children at that point. I don't think that anything - her bio dad and sister, Brallie - trumps Callie's view that Jude comes first. If this ever got to court and she was forced against her will to live with Robert while Jude was at the Fosters, I'm not sure if that is a show I would want to keep watching.

[izabella]

I don't really care about Callie and Brandon either way, mostly because I don't believe in this concept of teens with their twu luv 4eva when they're 16, so most teen romances are meh to me.  However, I get really bored of all the discussion (look how much we're talking about them and that wasn't even any part of this episode).  Romances and triangles eat shows alive, and teen romance is not why I'm watching this show.

 

The less time they spend on teen twu wuv 4eva, the better, as far as I'm concerned.

[GildedLily]

I don't really care about Callie and Brandon either way, mostly because I don't believe in this concept of teens with their twu luv 4eva when they're 16, so most teen romances are meh to me.  However, I get really bored of all the discussion (look how much we're talking about them and that wasn't even any part of this episode).  Romances and triangles eat shows alive, and teen romance is not why I'm watching this show.

 

The less time they spend on teen twu wuv 4eva, the better, as far as I'm concerned.

I can understand that you don't find them compelling and I don't really believe in the concept of teen true love either in real life in 99% of cases.  But expecting an ABC family show or any show that has a lot of young characters to not push the romances (and not just Brallie but the teen relationships generally) pretty hard is way unrealistic.

[izabella]

I can understand that you don't find them compelling and I don't really believe in the concept of teen true love either in real life in 99% of cases.  But expecting an ABC family show or any show that has a lot of young characters to not push the romances (and not just Brallie but the teen relationships generally) pretty hard is way unrealistic.

 

I didn't expect them to be so focused on Callie's love life, to be honest.  Considering how much has happened to her in the short 6 months she's been with the Foster's, Brallie has still somehow eaten the show.

 

I figured there would be teen romances, along the lines of what Jesus and Marianna have - nothing significant because they're 15.  Well, Callie's 16.  That's not much older, yet much of her story line has revolved around romance, despite so many upheavals in her life.  I wish they'd give it a rest and let her develop more as a person on her own for, oh, a month, without a guy to shape her character.  She's been involved with a guy constantly in the past 6 months.

[RachelKM]

I can't conceive of a scenario where Callie would willingly leave Jude. I think it would have been a much more interesting situation if Jude had not been adopted by the Fosters when the Quinns came on the scene. I could see Robert offering a home for both children at that point. I don't think that anything - her bio dad and sister, Brallie - trumps Callie's view that Jude comes first. If this ever got to court and she was forced against her will to live with Robert while Jude was at the Fosters, I'm not sure if that is a show I would want to keep watching.

So much this.  I was was thinking the same thing this morning, that the question of the Quinns as Callie's family would feel so much different if Jude were not already adopted and an Adams-Foster.  I just cannot imagine Callie ever choosing a family that is not with Jude.  

Edited July 30, 2014 by RachelKM

[marceline]

As much as some people want Callie to be adopted, that's how desperately I want Mariana to go back to her natural hair color. It's my main wish for the season.

[Featherhat]

I just can't wrap my brain around a scenario where Callie is even just considered a member of the family - not formally adopted but de facto adopted - and is still romantically involved with her de facto brother.

 

I do have acquaintances where two step siblings married each other, after their parents met and married when they'd both moved out of the house and were job having, house owning adults with one having had a failed marriage, but still it raises eye brows when people find out. 

 

I don't like the way it was written but I don't find two 16 year olds who just met and connected being romantically attracted at all creepy. It's insanely complicated, legally and emotionally as this show has pointed out, and I don't ship them in any way, but the attraction itself is pretty normal. It's more normal to me than them having an insta sibling bond because of their age and Callie's experiences. 

[NoNeinNyet]

I'm torn about the Quinns. On the one hand, I think it's great and I've loved the whole storyline. On the other hand, I think it's why I'm having problems with Mariana. She's the one who seems the most like a sister to Callie and Jude and they just don't seem to really know what to do with her outside of those sibling relationships. I like Mariana a lot, certainly more than Jesus, I just wish that they'd come up with something better for her to do while Callie and Jude are off in another storyline.

I think what it comes down to is that other than Callie, and to a lesser extent, Jude, I prefer everyone in stories that involve the Adams Foster household more than the outside world.

[GildedLily]

I didn't expect them to be so focused on Callie's love life, to be honest.  Considering how much has happened to her in the short 6 months she's been with the Foster's, Brallie has still somehow eaten the show.

 

I figured there would be teen romances, along the lines of what Jesus and Marianna have - nothing significant because they're 15.  Well, Callie's 16.  That's not much older, yet much of her story line has revolved around romance, despite so many upheavals in her life.  I wish they'd give it a rest and let her develop more as a person on her own for, oh, a month, without a guy to shape her character.  She's been involved with a guy constantly in the past 6 months.

think the difference isn't 15 and 16 so much as that Callie is the younger lead- and because of that her romances were always going toi be more central. Look at Joey on Dawson's Creek, Julia on Party of Five, Bay on ABCF Switched at Birth and really any younger female lead on any show. They are all always in some type of romance. The good thing about Callie IMO is that we get more than that- we get her with the Quinns and with Jude and at Girls United and in good scenes with Stef. Mariana and Jesus (rightly or wrongly) are in more supporting roles and get the B&C plots which is why their love stories have been nothing significant.

 

GildedLily, I feel bad that you feel like the only one who ships Brallie on here. I don't ship them but honestly, I just don't care enough to be that outraged by it. I feel like the show has greater issues than that, not to mention that like I stated in another post, in my humble opinion, the Callie/Brandon thing was blatantly telegraphed in the pilot episode. Seriously, there were multiple comments discussing it in the old TWOP board after the first episode aired so honestly, if it's that much of an ethical or moral issue to some, my advice was that it would probably have been best to stop watching then. It's just like how it took me two seasons to start watching The Vampire Diaries because just based on the previews and show description, I knew the show would be heavily based on a love triangle which I hate.

 

The reality is the Callie/Brandon situation is there - now I've said I think the writers did too much too soon with it but the reality is it's not going to go away forever and they're likely never going to effectively put a kibosh on it unless maybe this show goes well into a S5 and S6. But for right now, it's not happening and media interviews I've seen and read from the writers and some of the actors makes that very obvious. So again, my thing is if it's something one finds so morally offensive, then yeah probably best to stop watching. Again personally don't ship it but no I'm not really that offended or creeped out or whatever else by it. Cousins legally marry each other in some states in this country. I'm going to be that upset by two 16 year olds who've known each other all of 7 months, according to this show's wacky timeline, being sexually attracted to each other? 

No need to feel bad- I enjoy the different point of view and am pretty amused being the sole shipper and an even bigger outlier being in my late 20s instead of a 14 year olf #Brallie4Eva fangirl.  I agree that Brallie was telgraphed from the pilot and anyone who had a fundamental issue with them because of the foster sibling thing probably should have jumped ship then and definitely by Quincenera. Anyone whose watched a soap or a teen drama can see this They're the Ross and Rachel/Joey & Pacey etc. of this show not in terms of any similarities in the actual characters or stories but in that they've been the couple whose coming together is a huge throughline and that even when it appears totally done, it's always going to be teased and picked up again at some point and probably endgame. And you're right the way the writers and the cast have talked about in the media, it's clear that everyone at the show is aware of that and on board.

[possibilities]

AV Club loves this episode: http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/switched-birth-it-isnt-what-you-think-fosters-long-207476

[smrou]

The thing about Brandon and Callie, and the reason I'm entirely opposed to that romantic relationship and hope it's over and done with, has nothing to do with their attraction to each other or their chemistry or anything like that.  It's just that they're 16 years old and when 16-year-olds fall in love it is almost universally not forever, but with the Fosters Callie has a chance for a family that will be forever.  And I just can see no way that it's worth sacrificing that forever family for a temporary romantic love.  

 

Which is exactly what Brandon and Callie discussed back when they decided they had to break it off, and that's why I have at least some hope that the breakup will stick.  I'm sure they're still attracted to each other and that may continue to cause some problems for them, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if it comes up again.  But they're young and bound to be attracted to lots of people over the course of their lives.  They will get over each other and they should and if they're ever tempted to stumble into a relationship with each other again I only hope they'll keep in mind how much is at stake.  

[Geo]

This show is slowly turning me into a Terri Polo fangirl.

 

Oh yes, me too!  I have seen her in movies and on The West Wing but I never really thought much about her.  I thought she was OK but nothing special.  But this show has drastically changed my impression of her. She nails the facial expressions and little gestures that make her character so believable. I love all the little winks and smirks and eye rolls she gives Lena. Just the stuff two people would do in a real relationship. 

 

If there is anyone out there who doubts her acting ability I simply point them to the first season episode "I Do" and the scene in the kitchen with her father.  If you don't fall in love with her after watching that then you have no soul.

 

 

This is why I am sticking my fingers in my ears and closing my eyes and affirming that the Quinns are not a set up to enable Callie and Brandon to be a couple.

 

Please let me know if this works.  I'm am waaaaay too jaded to feel optimistic about this. 

Edited July 30, 2014 by Geo

[LisaM]

 

Oh yes, me too!  I have seen her in movies and on The West Wing but I never really thought much about her.  I thought she was OK but nothing special.  But this show has drastically changed my impression of her. She nails the facial expressions and little gestures that make her character so believable. I love all the little winks and smirks and eye rolls she gives Lena. Just the stuff two people would do in a real relationship.

Completely agree with this. I had never seen her - or remembered seeing her - in anything before. I love all of the facial expressions - the winks, the eye rolls - and bodily gestures which show her love for the kids and for Lena. I specifically recall the dancing scene at the wedding when she hugged Callie and then winked at her. I don't know how much of those expressions are in the script or the direction and how much is Teri adding it in herself. Regardless, she has completely sold me in this role

[DearEvette]

- I am trying to be cautiously optimistic about where they are going with Sophia.  The Baby storyline did not develop in any way I expected.  Even til the moment they said she 'lost the baby'  I was sure Lena and baby would be fine.  And the Brandon/Dani reveal was also handled superbly.  The two stories were allowed to play out and I am satisfied with what the writers did/are doing.  So I am hoping that they aren't pulling something obvious and  clumsy with Sophia. 

 

- I am not (and have never been) a fan of Callie and Brandon.  My personal opinion is that the two actors don't emit that type o chemistry for me.  But also give all the angst they've had both Callie and Brandon wade through, a forbidden romance just seems too much.  And well, it squicks me out.  I want Callie to be adopted by Stef and Lena officially.

 

- Kudos to the adult actors for the Brandon reveal scene.  I agree with everyone else, it played out great and each person acted the way I think they would have acted.  They were all in perfect character.  I don't have quite the bad opinion of the Brandon actors' schmoop face, so I thought he was pretty good too.   He certainly looks haggard enough.

 

- I do think there was an undertone of racial implication in Marianna's conversation with Tia.  The 'natural talent' thing is ambiguous enough that it should only have raised Tia's eyebrows a bit and she could take it as her being a bit hypersensistive.  But then Marianna had to also throw in hip-hop.  So, yeah, a little less ambiguous. 

 

Last week & this week have been two pretty strong episodes in a row.  I am really digging this show.

[SparklesBitch]

 

I enjoy the different point of view and am pretty amused being the sole shipper and an even bigger outlier being in my late 20s instead of a 14 year olf #Brallie4Eva fangirl.

 

GildedLily, I might be joining you soon depending on how they handle it. I'm completely invested in the Brandon/Callie relationship, but I don't completely hate the idea either. I think the actors have enough chemistry to pull it off and I think they're cute together. My issue with the whole thing is that I don't see it happening in a way that's organic to the characters and the story. The way I see it, if Callie is adopted by Stef and Lena (which I'm rooting for personally, because the poor kid needs a stable home where she's loved) they already said that there's no way they would let them date. Callie and Brandon would be legal siblings. If Callie isn't adopted by Stef and Lena, I could see them slowly coming around to the idea because they're pretty open and rational people. But for Callie to not be adopted, she would either have to chose that herself or be forced into living with/being adopted by the Quinns. Like other people have said, I can't picture Callie ever willingly leaving Jude behind, and if they force her to live with the Quinns against her wishes....well, ew. That doesn't seem like something that fits very well with the show's themes.

 

Also, there's this:

 

 

It's just that they're 16 years old and when 16-year-olds fall in love it is almost universally not forever, but with the Fosters Callie has a chance for a family that will be forever.  And I just can see no way that it's worth sacrificing that forever family for a temporary romantic love.

 

...which I think is a great point. Kids fall in love and out of love all the time, but Callie needs a family, and it's working really well for her with the Fosters. She and Brandon might very well both find someone else down the line that they're equally as smitten with as each other. This is sort of the same reason why I (and I'm probably dating myself here just a bit) wanted Cory and Topanga from Boy Meets World to date around a little bit before they settled down with each other.

 

If it wasn't for all of that, I'd definitely be on the Brandon/Callie bandwagon because, let's face it, they are sort of adorable. =) So, if they DO find a way to do it that doesn't mess with who the characters are, then I can see myself welcoming a Brandon/Callie relationship.

 

 

She nails the facial expressions and little gestures that make her character so believable. I love all the little winks and smirks and eye rolls she gives Lena. Just the stuff two people would do in a real relationship.

 

Right? That's the stuff that makes me grin like an idiot. I have three little favorite moments from this particular episode:

 

- Her expression after asking Callie if she was sure she could swim.

- The little facial expression/head tilt/arm crossing combination thing she did after telling Lena that Mike has terrible taste in women because he married a lesbian.

- The look of utter heartbreak on her face after Brandon storms out of the living room when he says that he shouldn't have told them and Stef kind of starts to call his name again that last time, but it doesn't all come out and, to me at least, it sounded for all the world like she was going to follow that up with "I'm sorry". I just wanted to hug her!

 

 

I don't know how much of those expressions are in the script or the direction and how much is Teri adding it in herself. Regardless, she has completely sold me in this role

 

I completely agree!

[DCCFanInKy]

If Callie isn't adopted by Stef and Lena, I could see them slowly coming around to the idea because they're pretty open and rational people. But for Callie to not be adopted, she would either have to chose that herself or be forced into living with/being adopted by the Quinns.

 

What if only LENA were to adopt Callie and not Stef & Lena as a couple?  Then could B&C date? I'm just throwing that out there.  I really think that'd be a weird plot twist and a stupid way for the show to go...

 

ETA- OK how do I delete a post? I thought I knew and now I can't find it.  This was a bad idea! I need sleep!

Edited July 31, 2014 by lscobee

[GaiusB]

I just hope it is the end of obligatory statutory rape storyline, because there is nothing on US shows what irritate me more. The Idea of nice lovely relationship between a 21 year old person and 17 year of person being called rape is so disgusting for me, I have no words for it, I just hate those storylines. Sure age difference was higher here, it was not lovely relationship and Dani was portrayed as unsympathetic as possible, but a principle is the same.

 

And it is not just older one who is the victim of the system, it is equally horrible to force in this case 16-17 years old boy to feel raped. I guess i should accept in USA is age of consent is higher then 15 years, though for some for me weird reason it is ok to have sex bellow age of consent as long age difference is not too high. I do not understand how it can be ok for Callie to have sex with Brandon, but if she would have sex with some nice 21 years old guy, it would be "rape".

[smrou]

The Idea of nice lovely relationship between a 21 year old person and 17 year of person being called rape is so disgusting for me, I have no words for it, I just hate those storylines.

I agree that there are times when statutory rape laws are applied inappropriately.  Times when a teenager ends up labeled (sometimes for life) as a sex offender for having a completely consensual sexual relationship with another teenager, for instance.

 

But that is notably not what's happening here.  Dani is not just a little older than Brandon.  She's significantly older, and, as his father's girlfriend, in something of an authority position.  Not only that but she's been manipulative with him from the very beginning.  This is a scenario when statutory rape is exactly the correct name for what happened because Brandon really wasn't in a position to give real consent.  And I'm glad the show is being honest about that and addressing the fact that rape comes in more than one form.

[Featherhat]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the majority of statutory rape as shown on TV is between people with a significant age gap IMO, and on shows like PLL it is lovey dovey even when the guy in question actually has been stalking or otherwise being extremely shady towards a group of teen girls, and none of them have ever been arrested for it. Both cases of it on this show have made it clear it was both statutory and unwanted (Brandon) and involved significant manipulation of a drunk teen who's father she is serious with (Dani) they aren't throwing a fit because Marianna started to date a college freshman who's tutoring her. Brandon doesn't want to have been raped that's understandable, but brushing it off is going to cause other problems about it for him.

 

For me a 17 year old and a 21 year old is a case of YMMV, depending on the individuals involved. 17 year old me definite thought I was mature enough to date a guy about to finish college, looking back on it I was so dead wrong its sadly hilarious, but others might be different. The age laws might seem and be somewhat arbitrary but they have to be drawn somewhere.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Featherhat

[Melgaypet]

And it is not just older one who is the victim of the system, it is equally horrible to force in this case 16-17 years old boy to feel raped.

 

smrou basically said what I wanted to regarding statutory rape laws, but I have to say; the only one "forcing" Brandon to feel raped is Dani. The woman who raped him. It's not as if Brandon was fine with what occured until he heard someone else's opinion. Since it happened, he's very clearly felt violated. Also ashamed and afraid. All very consistent behavior for a rape victim. Dani used manipulation and a position of authority rather than physical force, she is exactly the kind of person the statutory rape laws were written for: a predator.

[GaiusB]

This issue seems to be too much sensitive for some, i am not native English speaker to really explain it all why i dislike statutory rape storylines. One reason is it would not be ilegal in my country and i do not like preachy black and white way which would portrait several people i know as deviant sexual predators or rape victims even though it could not be more far from truth. (i am from European country where age of consent is 15 before anyone get wrong idea about me being a salafist or sexual deviant).

 

But i will react once more about forcing Brandon to feel raped issue.  Brandon does not feel violated for sleeping with older woman at all. He is indeed ashamed and afraid, but that is not because he slept with older woman and feel "raped". It is because he slept with with his father girlfriend and that is obviously good reason to feel that way. When he talk to his mothers and Mike about it, he does not use any excuses about his behaviour as he should. But than his mothers convince him he is just a victim and convince him to feel raped. That feel very wrong to me. For one he get free pass for his behaviour. For two and that is much worse: why would you want your son to feel raped if he does not feel that way before.

 

This my last post on this issue, i hope i did not offend anyone too  much, a different cultural background sometime lead to different perception of issues.

Edited August 2, 2014 by GaiusB

[myril]

GaiusB, please don't refrain from discussing. It might not always be easy to understand each other, particular when having different mother languages, and statuary rape is a sensitive matter, but I try to see were your view is coming from, even though I disagree.

 

In my country age of consent is as well 16. Sex with teenagers between age 16-18 still though can be prosecutable even if there was consent if the person is a ward or pupil of the adult involved, so if the adult is a teacher, chaperon, supervisor. I myself have been early in an romantic, sexual relationship, I was barely 15 even and he was four years older. It gives me a shiver to think, he could have been prosecuted for our love, and yes, I loved him. Was I though really ready for it? Not sure, but that is a different issue. In that relationship, regardless age, I was actually the more adult person, and being trained at that time as youth leader, even the one aware of possible legal issues, but luckily my parents had no problem with it. In such a case statuary rape is a double edged sword. And I remember watching the movie Loving Annabelle, a 17 year old and  her teacher falling in love, and I was miffed when at the end the teacher was arrested for statuary rape. It can be delicate matter.

 

But Dani sleeping with Brandon is not taken as wrong because of just age difference and age of consent. This was sure not a romance. Dani is an adult, experienced woman in her late 20s more likely early 30s and she slept with a drunken, underage teenager, who was in a highly vulnerable emotional situation when she did it. Dani as a more or less recovering alcoholic should know particular how little control a dead drunk person has, she met Mike at an Alcoholics meeting and was his sponsor (someone meant to help to recover, to get new control of one's life). Furthermore,  Dani had been in a relationship with Bandon's father, had pushed to move in with him, and was pretty much on the way to become Brandon's stepmother before the whole thing with the money and secrets blew into her face. This is  not a 21 year old college student sleeping with a premature teenager in love with her. But even if Dani were that, the facts that Brandon was drunken, was emotional vulnerable makes what Dani did wrong regardless the question of statuary rape.

 

To explain,  a different story: Janina, a 22 years old piano student living in San Diego is tutoring freshman Brandon, age 18, the new member of the symphony. One day Janina comes to the house, where she finds Brandon alone and dead drunk. Brandon just had a fallout with his father and was brushed off by his current big crush, a girl his age he knew since high school, so he got drunken to drown his sorrows. Instead of training piano with him, Janina puts Brandon to bed, She undresses him and gives Brandon a hug to comfort him, she kisses him, she makes him lay down, she has sex with him, and Brandon lets it happen.

 

Sounds harmless, does it. It isn't. Brandon being dead drunk and emotional vulnerable is not in a condition to be trusted that he knows if he is giving consent or not, and therein is the problem. Legally it is even clear (in some countries at least): a person whose judgment is impaired by drugs or alcohol can't give consent.  For years we have done campaigns saying "No is No", but we had to learn, that this is not it. It is not about a person being able to say no, it is about being able to say yes. Unless you are sure that is what the person can do and is doing, and not just assume or think he or she agrees, while actually the person is just not knowing how to say no or doesn't dare to, my advice is to everyone, men and women: Let it be, you could commit a sexual assault,  rape otherwise. Ask, get a clear yes, and if not, let it be. No, that is no killer of romance, it is simply speaking with each other, communication, which should be an important part of any relationship from the very beginning.

 

It is due time that we get those only seemingly blurred lines clear. Only yes means yes.

 

About pushing Brandon to feel as victim: He is a victim. But right, he so doesn't look like one from what we are used to see, and Brandon certainly doesn't want to feel like being one. Most victims don't want to feel victim.  He is ashamed, that he had himself not under control, was drunken, and let it happen. He feels guilty, that he slept with the girlfriend of his father. He might even feel guilty, that he eventually felt an attraction at that moment or before to Dani, he a hormone driven adolescent with fantasies, she an attractive, experienced woman. Brandon feels guilty, he shouldn't have let that happen.

 

As if things at that moment had been in Brandon's control. That is the point, they weren't, he was drunk and emotional vulnerable. Dani on the other hand was in control, she was not drunk, she is an adult, one who had taken a care role for Brandon at the side of his father. She should have known better and she did wrong. No, Dani didn't force him, but neither did she care, if Brandon was in the position to know what he was doing. Feeling guilty is what most victims do, feeling like it was their mistake what happened, but the point is, it isn't, they were not in control, someone else was. And Brandon was not in control, and not because of some hormones going crazy (never get why anyone uses that as an excuse, it's not true and crap), but because he was drunk and because someone else took control, Dani. Hard to accept, particular men have a hard time to accept that they had no control but someone else.

 

As I see it, Lena and Stef are not trying to convince Brandon to feel raped, a victim, they don't have to, he is. What Lena and Stef both told him, is that his feelings of guilt don't need to be. Brandon didn't get drunk to sleep with Dani, he didn't ask Dani to come by to sleep with her, if he had been sober I highly doubt he would have let Dani get in his bed. He didn't flirt with her (Dani was a bit flirty with him from the beginning though), he had no crush on her, he was in love with Callie, he was not pursuing to get in bed with Dani, so what should he feel guilty about? There is nothing he has to feel guilty about, not in this case. Brandon can feel guilty about bribing Ana, faking ID cards, lying to his parents, but Dani sleeping with him shouldn't be on his list of guilt.

 

For once it is right to give him a free pass for his behavior.

Edited August 2, 2014 by katusch

[Melgaypet]

GaiusB, I can only speak for myself, but you didn't offend me at all. I disagree with you on this issue, but it would be a sorry world if everyone agreed about everything. :)

 

I've already stated my opinion and I don't want to get repetitive or come across as argumentative, but I want to say I don't think the issue of age and statutory rape is black and white, either. As a senior in high school I dated an older college guy, and for a few weeks, after he turned 22 and before I turned 18, our relationship was technically illegal in our state. I certainly don't consider that to have been sexual assault in any way. Now, this particular situation, with Dani and Brandon? Yes, very much so.

[possibilities]

http://www.tvequals.com/2014/07/31/fosters-season-2-review-longest-day/

Another review of this episode.

 

Without even seeming to try, it makes it seem as though Jesus doesn't even exist. I think the show needs to deal with that issue!

[alexvillage]

Dani and Brandon had what might be seen as consensual sex, but the problem is not only that act, it is how manipulative Dani was and how she had been seducing Brandon way before they consummated the act. She is a predator. She did not casually run into Brandon and something "just happened". She was grooming him, in a way, to go to her, ask for advice, for "protection. The sexual act, while Brandon did not complain nor refused, was rape - rape is about control and Dani did have control over Brandon.

 

I also grew up in a country where laws about sex between an adult and a young person, a teenager, are not very clear. I dated a teacher when I was 17, he was 26 (he wasn't my teacher then, but still worked in the school). We did not have sex then, but this would probably be considered a no-no in the US. It was "kind of" a no-no for us too, but nothing that would cause a huge hoopla. Cultures are different. Some people might say he seduced me, but actually, we ended the whole thing in a very friendly way, met a few years later and dated again, as adults. 

 

The difference is that it all happened in a very teenage-y way, maybe even immature from his side. He never pushed me to do anything or tried to direct me, or anything the character Dani does in the show. Again, culture. In the US statutory rape is a big taboo (sometimes wrongly applied, imo). Having said that (if I made any sense), I do think Dani is a predator and manipulative. She had a plan and she used Brandon to get what she wanted, without consideration for what he was able to take. 

[Black Knight]

The Quinns are creeping me out.

 

Sophia is not malicious, but her being "maybe we can keep Callie" in exactly the same way as she was all "I want some pants like Callie's!" earlier in the episode...oof. Callie is a person, not a pair of pants or even a puppy. Sophia clearly has problems of her own - how happy can she really be in that home if she's saying that it might be better for her not to have been born? It makes me wonder how good of parents the Quinns have really been to her. At the very least, they've spoiled her rotten, that's for sure.

 

Jill's talk with Jude made me think that she's had a conversation with Robert that made her aware that he's wanting to keep Callie, and so was looking for dirt on the Fosters that can be used. Asking about why Callie ran away from the Fosters is a natural place to start.

 

And finally, Robert. I don't fault him for having feelings about having discovered a daughter he never knew and not necessarily wanting to give that up. What I do fault him for is his lack of honesty. Initially, when he claimed that he was just waiting for the family lawyers to give the go-ahead on his signing his termination of parental rights paperwork because they wanted to first ensure that Callie would have no rights to the family fortune, which is exactly what his signing the termination paperwork would also do, I was a little iffy but ultimately put it down to sloppy writing. But now he's taking Callie (and her brother) out for a day, and pushing her to accept a college fund? Those are exactly the sorts of things his family lawyers wouldn't want him to do right now. I think what Robert is doing is laying groundwork. Callie accepting the college fund, and spending time with him and his family, can be used for him to argue against terminating his parental rights. And what Sophia said about giving Callie time to get to know them, I think he's had that in the back of his mind all along. Her plan is what he's already been doing. Presumably Jill, after finding out from Stef that Robert was sitting on the paperwork, had a conversation with him and found this out. And she's backing up her husband, however conflicted she may feel about it. As for Sophia, I'm sure Robert knows Sophia well enough to know that she'd want to keep Callie just like a puppy.

 

And again, I'm not faulting the guy for having emotions about wanting to keep the daughter he's just learned about. But I do not like his lack of honesty about it. His pushing Callie about the college fund is what really stepped over the line for me. If his family lawyers are comfortable with him giving her a college fund - yeah right - then they're certainly comfortable about him signing the termination paperwork. I understand his feelings, but it's Callie's life he's affecting here and he needs to be upfront with her about it instead of stringing her (and her brother, and the Fosters) along with nonsense about the lawyers not letting him sign paperwork.

 

But I know in the end Callie will stay with the Fosters. One thing I do notice getting said often by posters, and it bothers me a little, is that Callie won't leave because she wouldn't leave Jude. It seems to be turning the conflict into sort of a Jude vs. Brallie thing, and I don't think that's accurate. Remember, Callie was prepared to do independent living so she could be with Brandon while Jude would be adopted by the Fosters. I think Callie made it very clear last season that this was actually a Brandon vs. Stef/Lena thing for her. She chose Stef and Lena over Brandon. Callie wants her moms, and one of the things she pointed out when she talked to Brandon about it was that Brallie would invalidate her Foster family connection in important ways. And, for Brallie to happen, it's not just about running out the clock until Callie is 18 as Brandon proposed last season. Adoption isn't restricted to minors. Even if Robert refuses to sign the termination paperwork, Callie can still be legally adopted by Stef and Lena once she comes of age, and Robert could not prevent it then. I was adopted as an adult myself, actually, because yes, my stepmom was my mom emotionally...but having her be my legal mother was important to me as well. (I was told by my uncle, a family court judge, that he saw a lot of adult adoptions like that, people who wanted their stepparents to be their legal parents.) It carried emotional significance for us, and it was also important in a pragmatic sense - should I have a serious medical crisis, heaven forbid, my biological mother doesn't have standing to make decisions, my legal mother does. My biological mother's rights were gone once I was adopted, and unlike Callie, because I was an adult, I didn't need her permission (and believe me, if she'd had any say, she would have stopped it). When Callie turns of age, if she's still unadopted because of Robert or whatever other roadblocks the show devised in the meantime, it's still important that she be adopted then. Or her moms have no say in a medical crisis and Robert does.

 

I would be all right with an open adoption for Callie if not for Robert's shadiness about this whole thing. If he'd just been upfront with her about not being sure that he wants to sign away his rights, instead of making excuses to delay the process while he works to get into her affections and lays groundwork for a legal fight, all the while assuring her that he'll sign the paperwork so she can be adopted like she wants...Callie's had the rug pulled out from her enough times already. She deserves honesty, and he's not giving her that. In his own way, he's being as ignorant of the fact that Callie is a person, not a possession, as Sophia is. But Sophia is like 14 years old and quite spoiled. Robert is an adult who should know better.