S07.E11: Family Matters, Part 2

[Trini]

Barry and Iris come together to try and stop a dangerous force from destroying Central City.

Chad Lowe directed the episode with story by Jonathan Butler & Gabriel Garza and teleplay by Thomas Pound.

Airdate: 5/25/2021

Edited May 25, 2021 by Trini

[bettername2come]

All right, nice job, making people not get murdered, Bashir. Credit where due. 

I found the music during Barry and Deon's conversation at the stadium very distracting, and then that motif just got more intense when the "family" teamed up again in STAR Labs. It's like an intensely 1950s sci-fi sound. 

I think getting to see Michelle Harrison in a role where she gets to do more than just die in a bland cardigan was my favorite thing about this whole storyline. There is no 2nd favorite. 

I'm glad Cecile asked where Jenna was. I'd been wondering the same thing. Her being with Singh makes sense, though. 

So after all that, Frost is just out on probation? When she did the same exact stuff BEFORE she went to jail and had the same support of the Flash then? Can she just join the Suicide Squad already? 

 

[cambridgeguy]

Nice of Iron Heights to let the metas wear their fancy costumes instead of the usual prison wear.  Or did they take the time to snag their clothes during the jailbreak?  Plus isn't Frost's new crush (who clearly spent most of his time doing crunches) back in prison with more time added to his sentence since he went straight back to his thieving ways?

I suppose it's not surprising this entire Force family nonsense was cooked up to push Barry and Iris into deciding to have kids.  You know, most people are able to come to that decision without spawning four elemental forces who almost destroyed the city. 

[Primal Slayer]

The best thing about this episode? Chillbane. I'll take a tacky looking villain who is hot and shows off his 6pack. 

Other than that...I am so over this storyline. The children are annoying. Bashir suddenly gaining a new ability RIGHT before they are killed? Sure. Ok.

I don't like a holier than thou Frost. She's been declawed and the character isnt even fun anymore. Even her "You have no idea what I can do" so she just blasts him with an ice cloud...which is exactly what she does all the time.

How do you know Nora is "evil"? she gets more and more Goth everytime we see her. 

And once again "love" saves the day. 

Can we stop with the "he's not fast enough"? Its been 7 years, Barry always wins in the end. 

How the hell is that "speedforce kids" prompt you to start a family but meeting your actual flesh and blood daughter from the future doesnt?

Edited May 26, 2021 by Primal Slayer

[Lady Calypso]

This was a stupid ass episode, and I'm thrilled that this The Forces Strike Back arc is over and done with. I was way past done with the "POWER OF LOVE" theme and calling these Forces their children. I guess now these human vessels for the Forces are stuck in the Speedforce permanently. I know they established that these people don't really have families anymore, but c'mon. 

Frost being out a week after being put in prison for life WITHOUT parole was stupid dumb and basically a whole waste of time. Literally NOTHING changed. Nothing. Oh, besides Frost making googly eyes at Chillblaine, who should definitely be in prison for life WITHOUT parole after he broke out and continued breaking the law. And the flirting was so, so bad, and that fight scene was bad. 

Jenna was mentioned, so there's that. Uh...yeah, that's all I got. Let's move on to the next arc. Please let it be better than this shit. And I guess Iris is getting pregnant by the end of the season, now that her and Barry are trying for kids. The last scene was definitely not PG like this show usually goes for. They usually don't even imply any sort of sex or intimacy with any couples on this show, so they've stepped it up with Frost/Bartender With His Shirt Constantly Off, and Barry/Iris now trying for kids. 

And My Chemical Norance was kind of fun, I guess. 

[thuganomics85]

Okay, maybe I had too much to drink earlier, but I was so confused during most of this.  Basically, Nora was kind of right and the rest of the "Force kids" really were the ones that were causing all of the destruction and mayhem in Central City?  But not on purpose, so Nora was still technically wrong to want to kill them?  But, instead, the fix was for them to all band together and use their powers on Barry, while he did an old classic "run around something in circles real fast!" act around some twister and that saved the day?  And it all ends with them becoming a happy family and living together in the Speed Force?!  I can't believe I'm saying this, but I miss the days when problems were solved by Barry simply speed sucker punching a baddie in the face.  This is become all complicated and weird now.

Despite Nora's goth eyeliner and lipstick somehow getting even more thicker each scene, I really do think the best part about this silly story was Michelle Harrison getting to move past being the typical "saintly, dead mother" character, and shine with the material she was stuck with.  Second best was Ennis Esmer and Sara Garcia making Bashir and Alexa noticeable enough to not be forgotten (Christian Magby wasn't bad as Deon, but I kind of found the character forgettable at times.)  Although, wow, Bashir apparently had a secret power this entire time, that pretty much made him completely overpowered.  Dude managed to one-up everyone not once, not twice, but three times with his vision power!  He was holding out on everyone!

Meanwhile, while all of this was going on, Frost escaped from prison, did some flirting and fighting with Chillbane and his six pack, apparently beat up a few other meta villains off screen, and is now officially released on probation.  Despite having a life sentence!  The legal system in the Arrowverse is so wacky!

Oh, yeah, and Joe basically spent most of this episode throwing a pity party that was so annoying that even Jesse L. Martin's amazing talents didn't provoke anything other than an eye-roll.  That's... kind of impressive, actually.

Cisco still hasn't told anyone yet that he is leaving, but he does make time for some gooey PTA with Kamilla, making things awkward for Chester and Allegra.  Who also give each other looks that seem to be hinting at something more.  They really aren't going to go the obvious route here, are they?

After all of this, Iris has decided it is time for her and Barry to start their real, human family now, because why not, right?!

Judging from next episode's previews, we might be getting ready for Cisco's send-off finally, but I'm actually glad we're waiting till June 8th.  This whole arc kind of broke me a bit.  Please do better, show.

[tennisgurl]

22 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Okay, maybe I had too much to drink earlier, but I was so confused during most of this. 

Funny, because when I was watching this, I kept feeling like I needed more to drink!

[rmontro]

3 hours ago, bettername2come said:

So after all that, Frost is just out on probation? When she did the same exact stuff BEFORE she went to jail and had the same support of the Flash then?

My eyes nearly rolled out of my head when she said that.  Flash put in a good word for her.  Again.  How do you go from a life sentence in prison with no chance of parole to probation?  Well, technically I guess probation isn't parole lol.

 

3 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

I don't like a holier than thou Frost. She's been declawed and the character isnt even fun anymore. Even her "You have no idea what I can do" so she just blasts him with an ice cloud...which is exactly what she does all the time.

That was just one example of how bad the writing has gotten on this show.  It's in alarmingly bad shape. 

[Cthulhudrew]

Coming soon from the CW: 

Nora and the Forces of Nature!!!

 

What a ridiculous bunch of nonsense this episode was. Ugh.

[Trini]

So that happened.

Not that I could tell you what happened with all the ridiculous twists going on. The Forces worked together, but I'm not even sure if we can credit 'the Power of Love' or Barry for saving the day - that would have things slightly better for me. But it's over (it better be!), and now the Forces are disappeared into Offscreensville to do... whatever. Sure.

I wanted to strangle everyone who kept referring to the Forces like they were Barry & Iris' literal children and literal siblings -- NO. The metaphor was cute at first, but they ran it into the ground and made it weird.

I totally skipped the Frost scenes; thanks for the recap, everyone. I'm telling y'all, save your sanity and just skip. Her scenes add nothing and don't matter.

Happy that Cisco and Kamilla got some PDA; not happy that they're the only couple to get that, so far.

I did like that Joe had some stuff to do in this one; he even got to pep-talk his actual family, yay! And his scene with Cecile at the end was sweet. I don't know if they'll give him another job or put him back in CCPD, but they can always use Joe as the "wisdom giver"/Team Dad role. (Which he should have always had, anyway.)

Best part of the episode: "I love that impulse."❤️  Minus points for WestAllen not even touching, though. ::sigh::

I'm still watching because I do like (most of) the characters and actors, and I still see potential, but I just have ZERO expectations now.

[cambridgeguy]

8 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

The legal system in the Arrowverse is so wacky!

They should just go all the way and say that Barry is the legal system.  Psyche/Bashir deliberately killed several people and terrorized others, but hey, kids(sigh) will be kids. 

After all the buildup this would have been the time for the B plot to be Kramer hunting down the escaped metas with her cure darts, but instead we got awkward flirting and Joe moping.

[tennisgurl]

Even by the standards of this truly terrible arc that was an absolute hot mess. The best part of it was that this ridiculous force kids crap is finally over and we can now do something else and hopefully never speak of this again. Oh, and Barry and Iris is going to start having adorable little WestAllen babies, actual children and not random people who got some weird cosmic power up through love or sparkles or whatever, and that is something I can get behind. "I love that impulse." Oh yeah, I see what you did there. This whole story has been so stupid, so melodramatic, so nonsensical, so morally screwed up, so pointless, that it felt embarrassing just watching it sometimes. Like I was shocked that professional writers on a major series that I have been watching for years now could make something so terrible on so many levels. 

I guess its a good thing that none of the people that got force powers had actual families or friends or lives they were attached to, or else them all getting to float around in a magic speed force house forever might be kind of a pain, but conveniently all of their human lives suck so this can all be wrapped up in a little bow. I know that this show loves its redeemed bad guys and its love speeches, and normally I love how empathetic and forgiving Barry can be, its one of his best qualities, but lets not forget that these people did, especially Bashir who went on a whole rampage where he seriously hurt and probably killed people, Nora would have murdered the over forces and Iris (!) in cold blood and would have killed the whole city, but now its all good, we can all just hold hands and sing a 60s peace song and all that death and destruction is just bloody water under the bridge because they're "family" and have a sad story and on TV that excuses everything. On TV you could be Darth Stalin the Ripper and have miles worth of dead bodies behind you and as long as you can produce some crocodile tears and give a half assed apology, all of that is instantly forgiven with no effort even necessary to try and make up for everything you did. Even beyond that, this was all just so confusing, so the "kids" were destroying the city just by existing? Or because they were all separate and they needed to get together? I have already ranted about how stupid all of this is, how nonsensical it is to act like these people possessed by chaotic forces are Barry and Irises' actual literal children, but we also saw even more of how inconsistent they are this week and how much they make no sense and only seem to exist to give him second hand embarrassment over all of the "family" ridiculousness. Also, what a coincidence that Bashir managed pull a new fancy power out of nowhere just when they needed it, how convenient. The actors were all fine, but the story was so bad and the characters so badly done that nothing could have been done to salvage the story. 

Its nice that the actress playing Nora got to do more than just be a perfect dead mom at least, and I was really assumed by how you could tell her increasing evil with her increasing trips to Hot Topic. 

Front and Chillbane's supposedly sexy fight was almost as embarrassing about all of these speeches about the force family were. Yeah, nothing sells me on sexual tension then having characters awkwardly comment on it, because telling is always better than showing in a visual medium. It also was nice of Iron Heights to keep everyone's villain outfits for them, I guess they kept Frost's in storage for her to pick up after her life sentence. So Frost is in jail for about a week before a bunch of metas break out, she gets a bunch back to prison offscreen, and is now allowed to leave on probation for helping out? Then why the ever loving fuck didn't they do that the first time? Kramer is still around and is still presumably hunting metas, but now the people who wanted to give Frost a life sentence has decided that she can just go? Holy shit, this whole plot has been a complete and utter waste of time. Its almost impressive what a waste it was, it actually would be hilarious if Cisco, Chester, and Allegra ended up having to actually face some consequences for their illegal actions during the trail at some point, while Frost is off scot free and those are the only consequences of the entire farce. What an utter waste of time. 

"You have no idea what I can do!" *Does same thing she does everytime.*

Joe quitting the force was stupid, he should feel bad about it. Then he spent all episode whining and complaining about his own dumb mistake, even throwing shade at Barry for not wanting to take out the forces, when that was exactly what Barry wanted to do a few episodes ago and Joe talked him out of it. Truly no character, no matter how beloved, is safe from this stupidity. 

Good thing? Like I said, the acting was all pretty good, even if none of this awful writing could be saved, this story has at least allowed for them to get a bit more creative visually, which look nice, and I kind of liked the weird 50s scifi music that they kept playing, it was at least interesting in a way that this shows music normally isnt. But yeah, the best thing about this episode is that this stupid story is over. 

[rmontro]

17 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

How do you know Nora is "evil"? she gets more and more Goth everytime we see her. 

Lol, I noticed that.  You can tell when a female character is getting evil because her lipstick gets darker. 

[Proteus]

Has this shows budget been massively cut? There have barely been any action scenes all season. Every conflict gets resolved by a pep talk about love & family. What has happened to this show?

[shantown]

Nora seeing Iris as "competition" added yet another layer of awkward grossness to the whole thing. 

I get that The Flash was always the family-friendly, light show - at least in comparison to Arrow - but they are REALLY overdoing it now. No real final fight, just Barry running around in a tornado of neon lights. I don't even understand what he was supposed to be doing. There wasn't even a real Big Bad, just a family fight that got out of hand. And it was just a misunderstanding! They talked it through and love overcame all. 

Don't even get me started on the incredibly cheesy and boring Killer Frost and whatever her side plot was supposed to be. Or Joe sitting on the couch unable to help... fight... the lightning?? because he wasn't a cop anymore? 

The one good thing was how happy and excited Barry looked when Iris said she didn't want to wait anymore to start a family. His whole face just lit up. Grant Gustin has looked really good this season (so shallow, I know) and I really wish they would give him some better material.

[Trini]

2 hours ago, Proteus said:

Has this shows budget been massively cut? There have barely been any action scenes all season. Every conflict gets resolved by a pep talk about love & family. What has happened to this show?

I think it's because the production is being *extra* careful because of covid. They're doing less stunts, and less scenes that would require more stunt people or close contact, it seems. So the writing accommodates that also. But yeah, it makes things less exciting, especially for a comic book show.

[rmontro]

3 hours ago, Proteus said:

Has this shows budget been massively cut? There have barely been any action scenes all season. Every conflict gets resolved by a pep talk about love & family. What has happened to this show?

I think they must have cut the budget for the writing staff.  Probably being farmed out to elementary schools for extra credit.

[bluemm]

The show is called "The Flash". The Flash is supposed to be a superhero doing superhero stuff. I have seen little to none of that this season. Instead, as Proteus said earlier, it's been all love and family stuff that's saved the day. The earlier seasons were much more interesting than what we are getting now. 

[Bulldog]

Thankfully, it appears that the "Forces" storyline is over.  I honestly couldn't give you a coherent summary of it if someone held a gun to my head. 

[Lantern7]

Well, that was . . . an arc.

It was just way the hell over my head. If the Speed Force didn't look like Nora, the arc would have been half as long. But no, lets get something that looks like Barry's long-dead mother, have her/it go total Dark Side, and occasionally drop Oedipal references. Also, a woman who can go full Hulk and somehow manifest a new outfit like that. That still bugs me.

Wait . . . Joe and Ceclie have a kid? Oh, right. Gotta love when characters on a show have children, and then they get sent to the cornfield for months at a time.

I kinda want Chillsblane to die for that outfit. Also, Frost got out of prison. What-the-heck-ever.

Funny that Barry and Iris go through several episodes of their "kids" running amok . . . . and now they decide to try and conceive one. Way to tempt fate!

Once again, I worry for Joe. Great speech, but I feel he might not have many more of those to make. Then again, I usually have that feeling, and he's still there.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Lantern7

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, Lantern7 said:

If the Speed Force didn't look like Nora, the arc would have been half as long. But no, lets get something that looks like Barry's long-dead mother, have her/it go total Dark Side, and occasionally drop Oedipal references

I can't remember if this was in the episode or the previews for next week, but Iris had a line saying something like Nora sees her as competition.  So Nora is going to be Barry's mother, his daughter, and his lover?  Might as well complete the trifecta.

 

2 hours ago, bluemm said:

The earlier seasons were much more interesting than what we are getting now. 

It helped that the earlier storylines were better, and that the show was still fresh.  It really feels like it's on its last legs to me.  There's something that's always bugged me about this show.  Flash is a superhero, but the show is more like a team set up to support him.  I understand why TV shows do this, it gives them an automatic cast to work with.  But it's kind of a tired cliche.  And I miss the feeling of Flash actually being an independent superhero, the guy who fights his enemies (comic book Flash had a fine Rogues Gallery) has personal problems, deals with hiding his secret identity, etc.  As opposed to being the "Power of Love" that hugs and talks the bad guys down.

I like the supporting characters on this show, but I feel like this Flash is missing something.  I have a hard time picturing this Flash being on the Justice League (even though he's interacted plenty with the other Arrowverse heroes).  The formula just feels tired.  And maybe if the writing was better right now I wouldn't be noticing.

[BeautifulFlower]

5 hours ago, Trini said:

I think it's because the production is being *extra* careful because of covid. They're doing less stunts, and less scenes that would require more stunt people or close contact, it seems. So the writing accommodates that also. But yeah, it makes things less exciting, especially for a comic book show.

Stunts I can get. However, I'm confused about the fight scenes. Has this show had fight scenes that required the actors to get close or something? They could've easily wrote Barry throwing lightning or speeding to throw a punch. When has he ever had a close up fight? From bts, I've seen them just have the actors react to something, which will be cgi'd in later.

[legaleagle53]

I don't know. I liked this episode and the resolution of the arc by having the Forces decide in the end that they all belonged together and should put their combined powers together for the good of humanity. It almost felt like a backdoor pilot for a spin-off featuring the Forces themselves as heroes, and I, for one, would watch that show. And since any speedster can access the Speed Force whenever necessary, I don't think we've really seen the last of the Forces, since they now all have made the Speed Force their eternal home. So we'll see what the future brings.

[cambridgeguy]

They really amped up the power of love stuff after Crisis outright declared that Barry was the paragon of love - prior to that they occasionally mentioned how Barry was the guy who inspired hope, but Supergirl ended up getting that title.

7 hours ago, rmontro said:

So Nora is going to be Barry's mother, his daughter, and his lover?  Might as well complete the trifecta.

Barry's family life has always been weird.  As this episode reminded us, Barry and Iris are de facto foster siblings (or maybe actual foster siblings if Joe officially adopted him)

[BeautifulFlower]

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

They really amped up the power of love stuff after Crisis outright declared that Barry was the paragon of love - prior to that they occasionally mentioned how Barry was the guy who inspired hope, but Supergirl ended up getting that title.

Barry's family life has always been weird.  As this episode reminded us, Barry and Iris are de facto foster siblings (or maybe actual foster siblings if Joe officially adopted him)

They're not foster siblings or adoptive siblings. There's a thing called guardianship. Going to live with someone does not make that person automatically family. The very first episode said they were not siblings.

[Trini]

You know, I think this Forces arc was one that could have gone on for a whole season, not just half. They could have stretched things out a bit, since there were three new forces/characters. Other things I would have changed is to not make the Speed Force outright evil/murderous, and not have it manifest in human form as Barry's mother - at least not so soon. The arc would be ongoing, but there also be some villains-of-the-week.

As per usual, this show has good ideas, but the execution ends up wonky.

[adora721]

4 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Barry and Iris are de facto foster siblings (or maybe actual foster siblings if Joe officially adopted him)

Other than the simple fact that Barry and Iris share zero DNA, here are a few ways for you to know this isn't true:

• Iris has never called Joe "our dad", never. She always says, "my dad" or just "dad." Saying they were "kinda like brother and sister" is not proof of anything other than how Iris perceived their situation might look. Immediately after she said those words, she added, "because we're not brother and sister". Some people hang on to the "kinda" part and ignore the "we're not brother and sister" part for their own reasons.
• Joe and Barry are police officers who know the law. If Joe had legally adopted Barry, Iris and Barry could not legally marry because, in the eyes of the state, they would legally be siblings. Since Barry and Iris are married, that tells you they are not siblings by law.
• Cecile was a District Attorney; if she Barry and Iris were legally siblings, she could not support their marriage legally. They would have to undo the adoption. Since this didn't happen, there was nothing to undo.
• Barry always refers to Henry as his dad or father. This has been consistent since season 1.
• Barry has never called Joe "dad". He said to Iris, "I'm hoping your dad will let me off early to go see the Particle Accelerator" in the pilot episode. When referring to Joe, Barry either calls him, "Joe" or says "your dad" when speaking to Iris.

I don't blame some people for the confusion because the writers have not made it abundantly clear what the legal term is for the  Barry/Joe situation. In some dialogue, Barrys says "foster", then that Joe "is like a dad", and Joe calls Barry "son". The writers are terrible about this, but one thing is clear: Barry West isn't a thing. He's Barry Allen and has been romantically in love with Iris West since childhood before his living situation changed when his mother was murdered. Henry Allen was also very clear with Joe in an early prison visit scene that Barry was Henry's son. 

[rmontro]

8 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Barry's family life has always been weird.  As this episode reminded us, Barry and Iris are de facto foster siblings (or maybe actual foster siblings if Joe officially adopted him)

I know, it's like the plot of Clueless!  I guess marrying you stepsister (or stepbrother) must be a thing, since there must be some inspiration for this.  So Barry's mom is his daughter and lover, and his wife is his sister.

[Quark]

The acting was good, but this whole storyline was very disappointing. And I thought it had so much potential at the start.

Hopefully, the second half of the season is better.

[Trini]

7 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

They're not foster siblings or adoptive siblings. There's a thing called guardianship. Going to live with someone does not make that person automatically family. The very first episode said they were not siblings.

Right; that's never been their relationship. It's weird that people want to see Barry's relationships as incest. hmmm.

As for the Speed Force seeing Iris as 'competition', that clearly wasn't in a romantic sense. As shown a couple episodes ago, SF saw that Iris is the person most important and most connected to Barry, and she has a greater influence on him. But it would be dumb to kill off Iris because then there'd be NO WAY Barry would be on SF's side after that.

[ottoDbusdriver]

Stop. Calling. Her. Nora.

The CGI budget must have also been cut too -- because the graphics were just terrible this episode, especially the lightning around the speedforce house.

I give it 1 episode before the various speedforces bust out and are back in the real world (about as long as Frost spent in prison).

Bashir unleashes a power that he never knew he had -- sure, why not ?  It makes about as much sense as anything else on this show.

This whole episode was just disappointing -- and can they please never ever utter the phrase 'kinetic isotopes' again.  It's this season 'bus-metas', and no matter how hard they try they can't make it work.

[Starry]

12 hours ago, Trini said:

Right; that's never been their relationship. It's weird that people want to see Barry's relationships as incest. hmmm.

As for the Speed Force seeing Iris as 'competition', that clearly wasn't in a romantic sense. As shown a couple episodes ago, SF saw that Iris is the person most important and most connected to Barry, and she has a greater influence on him. But it would be dumb to kill off Iris because then there'd be NO WAY Barry would be on SF's side after that.

I guess it's because they are making a baby. I am used to this kind of discussions every time Barry and Iris reach a new milestone. It doesn't matter anyway because the writers don't think of Iris as Barry's sister but believe that the most interesting thing about Joe is being Barry's father figure.

What I don't get is the "Barry's mother is his lover" thing. Even assuming that they were saying that the daughter (the Speed Force) sees the mother as competition this still wouldn't make "Nora" Barry's lover as he isn't involved in any of this.

 

18 hours ago, adora721 said:

In some dialogue, Barrys says "foster", then that Joe "is like a dad", and Joe calls Barry "son". The writers are terrible about this, but one thing is clear: Barry West isn't a thing. He's Barry Allen and has been romantically in love with Iris West since childhood before his living situation changed when his mother was murdered. Henry Allen was also very clear with Joe in an early prison visit scene that Barry was Henry's son. 

I's not uncommon for older men to call younger men they are not related to "son". I think it's similar to Cecile calling Caitlin Frost "honey" even though she's not her daughter in any sense of the word. Speaking of, has Cecile ever called Iris "honey" or is she only this sweet with Barry and Caitlin? I can't remember.

[Featherhat]

I have never seen WestAllen as actual incest but I will always see it as a weird wrinkle that the show didn't actually need to go with. Especially as their sister swapping relationship had already crashed and burned hard. It wasn't just the Barry/Iris growing up together from 11 it was the fact that Joe saw Barry as a son and they leaned *hard* on that relationship, more so than Joe/Iris in S1. It wasn't just Joe calling a younger man "son" he full on paternal and Joe almost certainly being his legal guardian is more than that as well. They could have avoided the issue all together if they had made Barry bounce around the foster care system whilst saying close to the Wests as his only constant. 

Then they continue to do with things with Nora speedforce the mother/daughter/lover thing that makes no sense and just makes things a little eyebrow raising. 

[Trini]

10 hours ago, Starry said:

Speaking of, has Cecile ever called Iris "honey" or is she only this sweet with Barry and Caitlin? I can't remember.

I want to say yes; but I can't think of a specific instance. We need more Iris/Cecile scenes.

3 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Especially as their sister swapping relationship had already crashed and burned hard.

??? What is this referring to? There's never been anything like that on this show.

3 hours ago, Featherhat said:

It wasn't just the Barry/Iris growing up together from 11 it was the fact that Joe saw Barry as a son and they leaned *hard* on that relationship, more so than Joe/Iris in S1. It wasn't just Joe calling a younger man "son" he full on paternal and Joe almost certainly being his legal guardian is more than that as well.

That still doesn't make Iris his "sister", though. Barry and Iris already had a best friends relationship before (and after) he came to live in the West home. The fact that they're unrelated let's them choose the dynamic of their relationship. People also forget that he and Joe weren't even close until the events of Season 1.

[Featherhat]

10 hours ago, Trini said:

I want to say yes; but I can't think of a specific instance. We need more Iris/Cecile scenes.

??? What is this referring to? There's never been anything like that on this show.

That still doesn't make Iris his "sister", though. Barry and Iris already had a best friends relationship before (and after) he came to live in the West home. The fact that they're unrelated let's them choose the dynamic of their relationship. People also forget that he and Joe weren't even close until the events of Season 1.

I was referring to Lauriver on Arrow. They'd already had their other big comic canon OTP crash so hard they needed to restart with a completely new relationship because a lot of people couldn't get passed the sister swapping. Why add a weird wrinkle to their new relationship? 

I think having Joe as his guardian for over a decade and THEN pushing so hard on Barry/Joe father-son dynamic in the back half of S1 through a lot of S2 and beyond which is a lot of what people remember when thinking about them, does just make some people raise an eyebrow, even if you accept that best friends/baby love overruled being raised together from puberty.  It's not a big deal at this point but it was a needless detail is what I'm getting at. 

I like WA and I think they have chemistry which overcomes a lot of the poor writing choices and I love JPK as their daughter and hope to enjoy their son. 

[Trini]

On 5/29/2021 at 4:03 AM, Featherhat said:

I think having Joe as his guardian for over a decade and THEN pushing so hard on Barry/Joe father-son dynamic in the back half of S1 through a lot of S2 and beyond which is a lot of what people remember when thinking about them, does just make some people raise an eyebrow, even if you accept that best friends/baby love overruled being raised together from puberty.  It's not a big deal at this point but it was a needless detail is what I'm getting at. 

Definitely wasn't his guardian for 'over a decade', but I don't know what to say if being close to the family of the love of his life is 'weird'. It shouldn't be a big deal seven seasons in, but yet it still keeps getting brought up....

Edited June 6, 2021 by Trini

[Stats Queen]

On 5/25/2021 at 11:18 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Okay, maybe I had too much to drink earlier, but I was so confused during most of this

 

On 5/25/2021 at 11:42 PM, tennisgurl said:

Funny, because when I was watching this, I kept feeling like I needed more to drink!

I am still confused because this is all nonsensical - on one hand, I had a bit too much to drink, but totally sober vs. my current state leads me to believe that I need more to drink, because in whatever iteration- totally sober vs. …. - none of this will ever make sense. Thus, I decided I should turn off the show, drink more wine (in lieu of pain meds I needed from my lumbar spine fusion) and call it a day, … and pass out dreaming of a good episodes to CW shows from days past.

[legaleagle53]

12 minutes ago, Arya Stark said:

I mean, Iris West-Allen-West has always the perfect plan, makes no mistakes at all, knows everything (even the stuff only Cisco and the other tech guys understand), never doubts herself in any way... What comes next?

What are you saying, then -- that she's a Mary Sue?

[Trini]

46 minutes ago, Arya Stark said:

I mean, Iris West-Allen-West has always the perfect plan, makes no mistakes at all, knows everything (even the stuff only Cisco and the other tech guys understand), never doubts herself in any way... What comes next?

If you think she's awesome and perfect, that's cool. But I assume you're not basing that on this episode (or her Season 7 arc so far) since there were scenes and dialog that directly contradict each of those attributes mentioned?

[Starry]

9 hours ago, Arya Stark said:

I mean, Iris West-Allen-West has always the perfect plan, makes no mistakes at all, knows everything (even the stuff only Cisco and the other tech guys understand), never doubts herself in any way... What comes next?

Are you saying this because Barry and Iris are trying to make a baby?

In the last episode I rewatched, Iris was afraid of being a bad wife and a bad mother. I would consider that doubting herself. Her perfect plan involved tracking down the Speed Force but she ended up finding Psych instead and had to get the hell away from there because she was unable to get through to him, something that she herself acknowledged in her conversation with Barry.

Iris has spent years around these guys but I don't know why you would think that she knows everything. Can you give an example? Besides, she is a college educated woman and not some high school dropout. There's plenty of non-science people that spend time in STAR Labs and operate the computers but only Iris is expected to act like a fish out of water and ask "what does this mean" every few sentences?

[Trini]

It's disappointing the Forces arc ended up weird (IMO) because they actually cast some good actors for the roles, but the writing just wasn't great. If they can do better stories, I'd like to see the Forces again (not all at once).

[Oracle42]

That was awful - just a waste of good actors. Felt like it was inspired by Stranger Things but written and executed incredibly badly

Edited April 1, 2023 by Oracle42