S07.E08: The People V. Killer Frost

[Trini]

With Frost facing an unjust punishment for her past crimes, Caitlin goes to great lengths to save her sister. Meanwhile, Barry's efforts to protect Speed Force Nora (guest star Michelle Harrison) lead to a shocking discovery.

Sudz Sutherland directed the episode written by Jonathan Butler & Gabriel Garza.

Airdate: 5/4/2021

[scarynikki12]

Holy overacting Batman! Caitlin’s behavior regarding Frost was really cringe. I also didn’t buy it for a second. If Caitlin and Frost had been twins this whole time then maybe but they’ve gone from Frost the doppelgänger to Frost the parasitic alternate personality to Frost a fully realized person in the same body to Frost and Caity are BFF Sisters 4eva!! in the span of a few years. It doesn’t track so I couldn’t care less about Caitlin’s fear of losing Frost.

Barry, Iris, and Speed Force had a boring story but at least it got interesting at the end when SF went bad. 

[cambridgeguy]

Well, those who hate Frost will probably be thrilled she's going to prison (not that I'd expect it to last forever) and apoplectic that she's going to be viewed as a heroic martyr for metas everywhere.

Maybe she and Catilin can share a cell for a while.  After all, she did confess to destroying all those cure samples.

[Terrafamilia]

This justice system is whack. Apparently, the judge had only two choices - agree with the prosecution's request to amputate Frost's power or Frost's request for life imprisonment, nothing else.

[GHScorpiosRule]

What the hell was that?

And way to ruin Nora. By giving the evil speed force her face. There was just something about it I didn’t trust, with it saying it was still weak, screwing things for Barry. And now this, when it said the evil “hides behind a human face facade” or whatever it said. I knew the minute it said that, that this Speed Force was bad.

And that Iris 

Spoiler

continues to think it’s a person? So happy Barry will tell her it’s not human or a person!

So the judge hadn’t made her decision then? Good thing Frost gave her another option!🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

This show is so fucking stupid. And neither Cisco or that stupid Allegra have a leg to stand on if they ever refer to themselves as heroes.

[thuganomics85]

So, if I'm understanding everything correctly, Killer Frost might have actually gotten by with a reduced sentencing had Caitlin/Cisco/Allegra not decide to fuck everything up with their little scheme?  Brilliant move, guys!  Then again, the whole trial/sentencing was as ridiculous as pretty much every thing single one of them has been in the Arrowverse.  It was like the judge really was pissed about not getting her morning coffee (ever) and just wanted to do whatever the current person talking to her told her to do, until the next one spoke.  It was just so half-assed.  But, hey, at least Cecile did a better job than when she represented Barry seasons ago!

It's rare that a performer can make me cringe and enjoy their performance at the same time, but that happen with me wincing through Danielle Panabaker's over-the-top theatrics as Caitlin pleading with Frost to take the cure, while also getting a kick out of the way Panabaker perfectly conveyed Frost's "Oh, would you please just shut up, woman!" reaction to all of that scenery flying.  Impressive?

I'm not surprised that they made sure Kramer had some kind of vendetta against all metas to fully make her in the wrong, but she honestly might be one of my favorite antagonists on this show simply due to how she threw all the heroes for a loop by just being logical, like easily going "Hmm... the cure just happens to get damage right when the security cameras go out?  What a coincidence.. not!" or actually having a back-up cure in place.  They never saw it coming!

Looks like Speed Force Nora has broken bad!  Looks like Barry was right not to trust her, so he at least has that going for him over everyone else.  Actually a little bummed that Alexa is already dead as I thought the actress was good and was curious to see what else she could have done with the character.

I'm really not trying to be a downer, but it already feels like we're getting into dumb and silly territory already.  I wish I could blame it on the shutdowns/COVID stuff, but a lot of the issues have been things that have always plagued the show, and they never seem to get a real handle on them.

[KittenPokerCheater]

So that's it?  No more Frost?  Weird- I find her to be one of the more interesting characters on the show.

[opus]

I thought Caitlin and Frost would secretly swap places and Caitlin would get the serum (after learning it was safe to do so, of course).

[sweetandsour]

Guys, I'm not sure - does Caitlin think of Frost as her sister?  The writers don't make it clear - she only says it non-stop.

What was that musical montage at the end?  I wasn't listening to the lyrics so maybe the lyrics were very fitting (???) but the whole vibe was really off.  Caitlin's gonna start sleeping with Frost's macaroni wall art under her pillow.

Even with the earlier tedious Mirror storyline, I had some hope that the show could get back on the train tracks once they recharged and moved on to other stories.  But s7 is here to say, nope, that isn't happening.  I really don't think s8 is going to be any better.

 

[Diapason Untuned]

So Kramer is just Government Cicada? At least she's gone now, though Joe was way too nice to her at the end.

The trial was silly, but at least it had some consequences to Cisco's ridiculous decision to create a metahuman cure and then give it to the government. That was destined to go poorly. And he messed it up further in the episode with another reckless stunt. I like Cisco, but I hope he learns from this.

So the Speed Force was evil after all! Or rather too detached from mundane human concerns like compassion for enemies. Guess Barry should have mentioned some of that stuff while they were bonding earlier...

[Trini]

Knew the Frost plot was going to be pure nonsense; fastforwarded through 95% of it. Did manage to catch "hasn't committed any crimes in four years" -- Wow, so we're just ignoring Season 4, now?? And I saw Joe's last scene with Kramer; I gather she's on the 'good side' but her methods are suspect? Anyway...

Wow -- so they really only had the budget to do Fuerza exactly once.  😕  Alexa was interesting, I don't want her to be really dead, but the outlook is not good. We got some of her backstory, but they still haven't explained how these random people became force conduits. If they were just going to kill her off, then they could have just had that info in this plot.

Now, this show has never been subtle, but they didn't even try here. The Speed Force that has been so motherly the past two episodes is suddenly aggressive; gee, I wonder if something will go wrong...?  I hope there's an actual reason for a force of nature(?) to turn murderous. Is it just power that SFNora wants??

But since it is a Force, does she really need Barry... for anything? She powers him, right? And apparently can take human form, so, why?

Also, sucks that for the 4587th time, someone Barry trusts goes evil. It's not a plot twist if it happens every year.

Liked that it was just Barry & Iris in the Forces arc, but I'm missing Iris the Investigative Journalist, and soon-to-be media mogul.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Trini
ugh dropped words ... and grammar

[tennisgurl]

I admit I was actually sort of curious about this one, in a "waiting for the train to go flying off the rails" kind of way, but it actually managed to be even stupider then I imagined. I know that the Arrowverse has always failed when it comes to courtroom drama, but this one was especially nonsensical. Lets just ignore how this big trail is happening ridiculously fast, that's pretty common when it comes to TV trails, lets look at how half assed both the defense and the prosecution are, how Cecile continues her streak of being the worst lawyer in Central, how they can apparently just announce that they want to give Frost the meta cure, a thing that has never been an option ever apparently, or she can be sent to prison forever with no possibility of parole, because no lesser sentences would be as dramatic, how about one witness is called for either side, how the makeup on the prosecutor looked so bad I thought it would be revealed that she was feverish the whole time (mean, but I blame the makeup and lighting not the actress) how Cecille's defense just seemed to be "but she isn't evil anymore!" and never even mentioning the fact that, hey, if the woman who she kidnapped one time can go on to be her lawyer, that says something right, the whole thing was absolutely ridiculous. So does this mean Frost is gone for good now? I cant say I'm going to miss her very much, but I am also not excited about everyone being all mopey and sad about her being in jail, and I don't really know why they decided to go in this direction for the story. Is Danielle just tired of playing two roles, and that's why they separated Caitlin and Frost in the first place? I would wonder if the show was tired of Frost, but the show loves her so that seems unlikely. Are they just taking this opportunity to both address the elephant in the living room of a career criminal hanging out with a detective and a CSI with no consequences and trimming the big cast? This was just really really bad you guys, and I say that as someone who has mostly liked this run of episodes, flaws and all. 

While the whole episode has everyone giving speech after speech about how Frost has changed and has personally saved every person on the entire planet (yeah, sure) and is just so wonderful now, I noticed that they kept the actual nature of her crimes very vague so that we don't actually have to think about all the fucked up things that she has done just for the fun of it. Even the damn episode description is trying to downplay the fact that the justice system has every right to prosecute her, "unjust punishment" my ass. Everyone was so pathetically frantic to go on about how terrible and unfair this totally understandable trial is, to the point that even Frost thinks they're downplaying what she has done way too much. Its like they wanted to deal with Frost's criminal past but in the most heroic way possible so that no one has to look bad, Frost for doing these awful things and everyone else for being so cool with her despite everything she did and forgiving her so easily. I suppose it wouldn't look very good if the prosecution had brought in people she actually hurt to face her or if they had really dug into her crimes, like the teeny tiny matters of participating in human trafficking and helping to kill HR and almost Iris and a crap ton of other things, then we might actually have to feel bad for the victims and not see Frost herself as the victim of mean Kramer and her anti meta crusade. Of course it turns out that Kramer isn't just a federal agent doing her job by bringing a violent criminal to justice, she's a crazy meta racist who hates meta's because of some incident with a meta betraying her team and this is all a part of her evil scheme to start taking meta criminals powers away, or maybe taking powers from heroes because she thinks they're all just pretending to be good guys, I don't know, her motive rant was a bit confused. So now we dont have to take any of her valid points seriously because she was evil all along and her desire to prosecute Frost had nothing to do with justice and more about getting revenge for something that Frost didn't actually do. That's a classic in the "we want our redeemed villain to always look good and be the victim" playbook, have all the people who are angry with the former villains be crazy mustache twirling bad guys who hate them for no reason, like Kramer and the bartender who was setting Frost up, instead of people with an actual legit grudge or are really trying to bring a criminal to justice. So who the hell is this meta that was working with Kramer? Can we get more details about that situation? Was it something with ARGUS? 

When will the unjust treatment of attractive upper middle class white women who dabble in human trafficking by the justice system end? 

That cures not looking so good now, huh Cisco? This show has never had any idea what to do with the meta cure, it has always skated around the issues surrounding it and it was all confused by the unimaginably stupid plot of Cisco taking it for no reason whatsoever, but now we actually got a somewhat interesting ethical debate on whether or not meta criminals should have their powers taken if their powers are a danger to society. I don't approve of forcibly removing powers unless its an extremely dire situation, like someone's powers are so strong they cant be contained and they keep using their powers to commit more murders, but it is kind of an interesting debate to have. So of course its all part of an evil plan by an anti meta fanatic (which even Frost pointed out has already been done) and we get a big speech from Frost about how removing her powers is removing a part of her and she would rather be in prison forever then lose her powers and yadda yadda yadda I guess Cisco's powers weren't a part of him because he got rid of those like a bad haircut one day for no reason. Am I the only one who thought that Frost was being just a wee bit dramatic over losing her powers? When she realized that this was all a plot to take metas powers I can see her wanting to choose jail, but is making ice crystals so much more important than not being in jail for the rest of her life? Then we get her in this super melodramatic slow motion walk as she bravely sacrifices herself to save all meta criminals, including weird eye guy who pops up out of nowhere to tell Frost she's the meta messiah or whatever, this is all just so overwrought and silly. 

Speaking of the cure, how are Caitlin, Cisco, and Allegra not all arrested for breaking into SCPD and messing up the meta cures? Caitlin just confessed and its obvious that Cisco and Allegra were involved as well, so why are they not facing criminal charges for this obviously criminal behavior? What a bunch of morons, how did they think that this was going to work? That SCPD would just be like "wow, what a weird coincidence that all of the meta cures are destroyed just when we were threatening to use it on the friend of these three people who have the know how to commit this exact crime and were there on the scene, but it must just be a coincidence." Remember when Caitlin and Cisco used to be smart? How are they all not in jail for about a dozen crimes they just committed? Which only managed to make everything worse, good job team. Not only is what they did highly illegal (any thoughts on that Joe? Cecille?) but morally pretty crappy, especially from Cisco who invented and championed this stupid cure in the first place. What about metas who really want to get rid of their powers, like the poor bus meta who was leaking radiation, or other metas who's quality of life would be vastly improved without dangers powers like that which they cant control? I guess Cisco can always make more, but that is sure a lot less convenient for a quick cure, especially if its someone who is accidently hurting themselves or others and wants help. But screw other people, Frost, our best and most awesome friend and savior or the universe apparently is in trouble! Caitlin in particular was so high on the frantic drama that it felt like she was about to shout "I do declare!" before passing out onto her fainting couch. She was so over the top with her bug eyed freak outs when she was going on about "I have to save my sister! My sister!" that I was embarrassed just watching her. I have no idea what direction Danielle was getting in those scenes or if she really thought she was nailing it, but it was so ridiculous that even Frost looked embarrassed for her. I cant say I have ever seen an actress actually judge herself on her bad acting on screen before. Like Danielle was watching the reels like "do I really sound like that? Holy shit what was I doing with my eyes?" Our heroes everyone, they don't think rules apply to them, will commit crimes to stop the course of justice to help their friends, and are about as bright as a box of broken bulbs. 

No wonder Barry and Iris stayed the hell away from that whole story, they had some actual plot stuff to do. Poor Barry, his ability to show empathy for others and see the best in them really is admirable, but it also tends to screw him over a whole lot. Although this time it was a bit more on Iris, who was inviting the Speed Force to crash on their couch right away while Barry was the skeptical one, but I don't think either of them could have guessed the SF going full murder on them. I have suspected something like this would happen, the SF might take the appearance of a human to make it easier for her to communicate with Barry in a way that makes him feel more comfortable, but the SF is not a person, its a cosmic force of the universe with a very alien sense of morality. It prioritizes Barry's duties as the Flash over his human life and cant really understand why he would prioritize his family over his speed, which has led to its being rather uncaring of his mental state and own life, like when it kept telling him how he just needs to stop whining and be ready to die in Crisis who cares if your dead and will never meet your future daughter again, so I can see how we got here. That inhuman view of the world mixed with suddenly feeling real emotions like fear for the first time could easily warp the SF into doing evil things in the name of self preservation and the greater good of keeping the speed force going. I think it happened a bit too fast, she went from motherly to murderous in about three seconds, but its certainly more interesting than the Frost plot. I have no idea where they go from here though, how can they fight the very thing that gives Barry his powers? Its like fighting Gravity itself but it looks like your dead mom. Also, Barry now gets the fun imagine of his dead mother killing an innocent woman and almost killing his wife. Everyone seriously needs to chip in to get Barry to a therapist stat. It sucks that Alexa is apparently dead, I liked her and her scenes with Barry and the actress was really good. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by tennisgurl

[catrice2]

The "we take someone in only for them to betray us," is so annoying. This show has ever established Barry as the smart person he is supposed to be, nor capitalized on the chemistry Barry and Iris had before she knew he was the Flash.  I can't with the Frost storyline....to be honest I have fast forwarded through most of this season. ....

[adora721]

19 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

Caitlin’s behavior regarding Frost was really cringe.

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

She was so over the top with her bag eyed freak outs when she was going on about "I have to save my sister! My sister!" that I was embarrassed just watching her.

15 hours ago, sweetandsour said:

Caitlin's gonna start sleeping with Frost's macaroni wall art under her pillow.

Caitlin's behavior seems less like familial love and more like neurotic co-dependency and obsession. As the most coddled and narcissistic character on the show, Cait must have loved having her own, personal enabler, sycophant, and flying monkey in Killer Frost 24/7.

With coddler Ralph gone, coddler Cisco soon to depart, and the loss of KF, Cait won't have anyone left to tell her, "You is smart, you is kind, you is important." A narcissist needs to feed on the faux "worship". I expect this really isn't the last of KF though since she'll be joining Chillblaine in Iron Heights. I wonder if Chillblaine was a reason KF wanted to end up in prison cause she's got a crush. Ugh!

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

we get a big speech from Frost about how removing her powers is removing a part of her and she would rather be in prison forever then lose her powers

Speaking of Iron Heights: The latest retcon of KF having dark matter and being affected by meta-dampening technology means KF will be placed in the meta wing of Iron Heights. There, KF will not be able to use her powers for the rest of her life; so, what was the point of not taking the cure since the end result is not being able to use her powers? It's not like Iron Heights turns off the dampening technology once a day so metas can use their powers.

The laziness and awfulness of the writing astounds. I hope Eric Wallace doesn't renew the contracts of the legacy writers, keeps the newest writer, and brings in better writers for season 8. This has got to be the worst writing for a character I've ever watched. 

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by adora721

[cambridgeguy]

42 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Speaking of Iron Heights: The latest retcon of KF having dark matter and being affected by meta-dampening technology means KF will be placed in the meta wing of Iron Heights. There, KF will not be able to use her powers for the rest of her life; so, what was the point of not taking the cure since the end result is not being able to use her powers? It's not like Iron Heights turns off the dampening technology once a day so metas can use their powers.

Given the, ahem, flexible nature of the justice system in the Arrowverse she probably knows there's a chance she'll be sprung for one reason or another.  Oliver (someone who broke many, many laws and killed a lot of people) turned himself in for a life sentence and was out Arrowing again in a few months.

Edited May 5, 2021 by cambridgeguy

[appositival]

Barry is the slowest, fastest person in the world.

When the woman on the meta-test bench sits up and her eyes flash green, hit the off button! Don't stand there with the control in your hand and your mouth open while she flops around like a beached trout.

I'm guessing that frost is afraid that her hair will turn mousy brown if she takes the meta cure. That would be worse that a (CW) life-time of prison. Are we doing a frost-pool? I'll bet that she is out of jail by the second show of the next season.

Whenever some military person complains about supers being dangerous, I wonder what their "Confirmed Kill" number is. I'm sure Kramer has killed more people than frost.

 

[Trini]

12 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I admit I was actually sort of curious about this one, in a "waiting for the train to go flying off the rails" kind of way, but it actually managed to be even stupider then I imagined.  ....

Thanks for the recap! Bless y'all who still bother with Caitlin/Frost. Of course all the Frost/Caitlin stuff was going to be cringe; what I was actually worried about was how bad the other characters in this plot were going to end up looking. ... And it sounds bad.

12 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

 

No wonder Barry and Iris stayed the hell away from that whole story, they had some actual plot stuff to do.

Ha! I too was amused that they basically 'nope'd' out of that plot.

 

12 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

... That inhuman view of the world mixed with suddenly feeling real emotions like fear for the first time could easily warp the SF into doing evil things in the name of self preservation and the greater good of keeping the speed force going. ...

This is an interesting theory; and I hope they explain more about this 'human' form of the Speed Force. ... Assuming they've thought it through.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Trini

[rmontro]

23 hours ago, Terrafamilia said:

This justice system is whack. Apparently, the judge had only two choices - agree with the prosecution's request to amputate Frost's power or Frost's request for life imprisonment, nothing else.

Really.  Where did that judge get her license, out of a crackerjack box?

[BeautifulFlower]

Them trying to portray Killer Frost choosing a life sentence as good thing for metas not to have their powers taken away is dumb. Okay, they do realize there are metas who use their powers to do bad things? Ever since they received them, we've seen them commit stuff like murder. Why would/should they have the choice on whether their powers should be gone or not? There's no reason for the authorities in Central City to trust that some of these criminals will be reformed.

[Cthulhudrew]

It wasn't the worst episode I've seen (in fact, its the only one I haven't fallen asleep to the past three episodes), but why do they always have to make court scenes so unbelievable? Not just in this show, obviously, but it does happen a lot here.

As if the judge only had the option of either forcing Frost to take the cure or accept her silly "lifetime without parole" idea. Because fictional judges don't have judicial discretion, or penalty guidelines that can frame their decision-making.

Oy. Thus endeth the Frost saga; not with a bang, but with a whimper. 

At least they actually made something interesting come out of the whole Cisco Meta-Cure storyline, even if it largely sidelined the guy who should have been most agonized and wringing his hands over the situation.

(Bonus: At least we don't have to sit through any more episodes of "Fuerza, Fuerza, Fuerza" again.)

Edited May 6, 2021 by Cthulhudrew

[Cthulhudrew]

Also: the minute Caitlin suggested that the Meta-Cure might be fatal for Frost, why was Cecile not immediately calling for the judge to consider that the prosecution just changed their recommendation to a death sentence?

(And... I am not a lawyer... but can they even change their recommendation at that point? Post-trial? In the RW, of course, not the Arrowverse.)

[Lady Calypso]

The court scenes, similar to season 4's, were ridiculous. This show SHOULD avoid trials like this at all costs, because they aren't well done at all, and they make Cecile look like she's fresh into her career. 

Here's the thing; the judge seemed like she was very much on Frost's side the entire episode. She seemed disgusted by the prosecution presenting the metahuman cure from ARGUS. She seemed like she was absolutely going to reject the prosecution wanting to give Frost the cure. I really think the judge was going to let Frost go, especially if the prosecution was all in on the cure and nothing else. But then Frost changed her plea to life in prison without parole. Maybe you should have anticipated what the judge might have actually done, Frost! Because you probably would have roamed free with your powers! 

But I guess this was the way to get rid of Frost (for some reason) without killing her, and it's a way to showcase Caitlin again after being sidelined for Frost for three and a half seasons. Though...I hate to admit it, but I actually like Frost more than Caitlin now. I realized with the Frost/Caitlin scene that Frost is more interesting to me. Her snark really made her character work, and Danielle Panabaker showed that she does better with snarky lines. Again, it's funny how the same actress can highlight both her strength and weakness in one single scene.

What? The Speedforce is actually EVIL? SAY IT AIN'T SO.

Seriously, that was predictable by a MILE. I felt bad for Alexa, who really seemed like she was very likely the only good Force out there. She just needed help, and Nora Speedforce decided that killing her was the best plan for...power, I guess? To have Barry all to herself? Barry's empathy is his best quality, but it often makes him miss the telltale signs of a truly evil individual. Nora got so suddenly aggressive in this episode that even Iris noticed it and stood up to her (go Iris!). Still, what a shame for that ending.

[legaleagle53]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

What? The Speedforce is actually EVIL? SAY IT AIN'T SO.

Seriously, that was predictable by a MILE. I felt bad for Alexa, who really seemed like she was very likely the only good Force out there. She just needed help, and Nora Speedforce decided that killing her was the best plan for...power, I guess? To have Barry all to herself? Barry's empathy is his best quality, but it often makes him miss the telltale signs of a truly evil individual. Nora got so suddenly aggressive in this episode that even Iris noticed it and stood up to her (go Iris!). Still, what a shame for that ending.

I'm not so sure that the Speed Force is evil. As she pointed out to Barry, she was attacked and almost killed by Fuerza and the other Forces. To her, survival is paramount, especially since SHE is the source of Barry's powers and those of all the other speedsters, too. If one or more of the other Forces succeeds in destroying her, what happens to the speedsters who depend on her? We already saw how well creating an artificial Speed Force worked out.

So I can understand the Speed Force's point of view.  Self-preservation is one of the most primal of all instincts. Obeying that instinct does not necessarily make one evil. In fact, it makes one HUMAN.

[BeautifulFlower]

5 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

The court scenes, similar to season 4's, were ridiculous. This show SHOULD avoid trials like this at all costs, because they aren't well done at all, and they make Cecile look like she's fresh into her career. 

Here's the thing; the judge seemed like she was very much on Frost's side the entire episode. She seemed disgusted by the prosecution presenting the metahuman cure from ARGUS. She seemed like she was absolutely going to reject the prosecution wanting to give Frost the cure. I really think the judge was going to let Frost go, especially if the prosecution was all in on the cure and nothing else. But then Frost changed her plea to life in prison without parole. Maybe you should have anticipated what the judge might have actually done, Frost! Because you probably would have roamed free with your powers! 

But I guess this was the way to get rid of Frost (for some reason) without killing her, and it's a way to showcase Caitlin again after being sidelined for Frost for three and a half seasons. Though...I hate to admit it, but I actually like Frost more than Caitlin now. I realized with the Frost/Caitlin scene that Frost is more interesting to me. Her snark really made her character work, and Danielle Panabaker showed that she does better with snarky lines. Again, it's funny how the same actress can highlight both her strength and weakness in one single scene.

 

I thought it was the sentencing, so Killer Frost wasn't going to be let go. The judge was probably going to get her a lighter sentence than life without parole.

[rmontro]

This probably belongs in a different episode, but this show has too many Noras.

I guess there are two Caitlins and multiple Harrison Wells though.

[Lantern7]

Basically, Inherit the Wind with metahumans. I think. Also, Barry gets shocked by the Speed Force. You think he's be more on guard if it didn't look like his mother?

Also, I would have looked for mileage in the idea of Frost "qualifying" as a human being.

Whatever. Episode was a bit of a slog. Starting to think the series is running the final laps.

[Lady Calypso]

17 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

So I can understand the Speed Force's point of view.  Self-preservation is one of the most primal of all instincts. Obeying that instinct does not necessarily make one evil. In fact, it makes one HUMAN.

True, and I might see her point. However, intent and actions matter and the SpeedForce not only killing Alexa, someone who was NOT hurting anyone in that particular moment, but also threatening Barry by attacking Iris as a way to use him for his powers in order to kill Alexa, makes her wrong. So I would correct myself and say maybe not a villain, but definitely an antagonist. Which, I guess is different from the other foes Barry has had to fight over the years. They both want the same goal, but the Speedforce is willing to kill to get it achieved, while Barry isn't. 

15 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I thought it was the sentencing, so Killer Frost wasn't going to be let go. The judge was probably going to get her a lighter sentence than life without parole.

I think the issue is that the prosecution wasn't seeking prison time (they said it clearly in the episode that they weren't), so would the judge be able to reject the metahuman cure plea AND still put Frost in jail? To be fair, I don't know how these things work.

[GHScorpiosRule]

7 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

rue, and I might see her point. However, intent and actions matter and the SpeedForce not only killing Alexa, someone who was NOT hurting anyone in that particular moment, but also threatening Barry by attacking Iris as a way to use him for his powers in order to kill Alexa, makes her wrong. So I would correct myself and say maybe not a villain, but definitely an antagonist. Which, I guess is different from the other foes Barry has had to fight over the years. They both want the same goal, but the Speedforce is willing to kill to get it achieved, while Barry isn't. 

So now this Speed Force is like Superman: The Animated Series/Justice League/Justice League Unlimited's Brainiac? Whatever.

8 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think the issue is that the prosecution wasn't seeking prison time (they said it clearly in the episode that they weren't), so would the judge be able to reject the metahuman cure plea AND still put Frost in jail? To be fair, I don't know how these things work.

The judge has the discretion to reject any plea or anything the prosecution states it wants. She could have said, nope, based on what I've heard, I'm sentencing Frost to blah, blah, blah.

Of course, I'm basing all this on my Law & Order degree, where I've seen good, smart judges, reject plea agreements; set aside verdicts that were based on emotion (when the verdict was guilty), decide, based on the crime, and charges, what the sentence would be. And I consider those cases more realistic than the craptastic shit this show and Arrow have shoveled.

[adora721]

6 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

The judge has the discretion to reject any plea or anything the prosecution states it wants.

The judge had to be careful of setting a precedent that would be used in future cases against meta humans. If the judge sentenced KF to take the cure, this brings up all sorts of ethical issues about gov't control of human bodies and medical castration or medical experimentation against sentient beings. Nevermind that Cait put a sentient meta in a medically-induced coma without his consent in season 5; Cait's hypocrisy is epic.

Setting KF free despite such serious crimes, attempted murder and kidnapping, would set a precedent by which future criminals might claim that their good deeds negated punishment for past crimes. That's not a good precedent either for meta or normal human criminals.  And prison isn't just for rehabilitation; it's punishment for crime. It's not supposed to feel good. 

KF just played herself by stating she'd rather spend life without parole in prison, where the meta dampening technology would negate her powers anyway. KF is an idiot!

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

Setting KF free despite such serious crimes, attempted murder and kidnapping, would set a precedent by which future criminals might claim that their good deeds negated punishment for past crimes. That's not a good precedent either for meta or normal human criminals.  And prison isn't just for rehabilitation; it's punishment for crime. It's not supposed to feel good. 

That precedent already exists.  Mick Rory went straight back to crime when he was on a break from the Legends AND he betrayed them to Reverse Flash and friends (cue dark timeline, multiple deaths, etc.).  None of that mattered at all and Mick even got to stand on stage with the POTUS while she was giving the heroes a big thank you.  In the Arrowverse crime doesn't matter IF you help the good guys and they like you.

[adora721]

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

That precedent already exists. 

Well, I'm thinking since this was a BLM and accountability episode, the writers want to avoid that particular precedent. 

[immortalfrieza]

On 5/7/2021 at 5:27 PM, cambridgeguy said:

That precedent already exists.  Mick Rory went straight back to crime when he was on a break from the Legends AND he betrayed them to Reverse Flash and friends (cue dark timeline, multiple deaths, etc.).  None of that mattered at all and Mick even got to stand on stage with the POTUS while she was giving the heroes a big thank you.  In the Arrowverse crime doesn't matter IF you help the good guys and they like you.

That's fiction for you. If you're one of the protagonists you can do whatever you want even incredibly immoral and illegal stuff and get away with it scot free the vast majority of the time, if it's even brought up that you did anything bad at all. The only time protagonists get in trouble for something they did it's either because it pisses off one of the other protagonists or it's because of some villain or something and they'll worm out of it.

On 5/7/2021 at 3:32 PM, adora721 said:

Setting KF free despite such serious crimes, attempted murder and kidnapping, would set a precedent by which future criminals might claim that their good deeds negated punishment for past crimes.

The oddest thing is, they don't even mention what it is they're prosecuting Frost for. Which is is probably for the best since the vast majority of her crimes nobody should even be aware of, much less actually be able to prosecute her for. Frost helping to kill HR and nearly getting Iris killed is only known by Team Flash, while anything she did under Amunet it's highly unlikely anyone would know about either.

On 5/5/2021 at 4:56 PM, appositival said:

Are we doing a frost-pool? I'll bet that she is out of jail by the second show of the next season.

Ooh! I give it 4 episodes max! Anybody got three? LemmehearthreedoIhearthree?

Who knows? Maybe they'll put Frost on the Suicide Squad Task Force X.

[legaleagle53]

23 minutes ago, immortalfrieza said:

The oddest thing is, they don't even mention what it is they're prosecuting Frost for. Which is is probably for the best since the vast majority of her crimes nobody should even be aware of, much less actually be able to prosecute her for. Frost helping to kill HR and nearly getting Iris killed is only known by Team Flash, while anything she did under Amunet it's highly unlikely anyone would know about either.

They didn't need to. This wasn't a full-blown trial on the merits of the charges. Frost waived that right when she decided to plead guilty to everything, so the judge was already fully aware of what crimes Frost had committed because Frost had already admitted to having committed them. This was merely a sentencing hearing, the sole objective of which was for the judge to decide, based upon the crimes committed and other factors, what the most appropriate punishment for those crimes would be.

[immortalfrieza]

1 hour ago, legaleagle53 said:

They didn't need to. This wasn't a full-blown trial on the merits of the charges. Frost waived that right when she decided to plead guilty to everything, so the judge was already fully aware of what crimes Frost had committed because Frost had already admitted to having committed them. This was merely a sentencing hearing, the sole objective of which was for the judge to decide, based upon the crimes committed and other factors, what the most appropriate punishment for those crimes would be.

They should have. They were out to arrest Frost for some reason or another but conveniently they never stated what crimes she was under warrant for arrest for. Which means we have no context for Frost's sentencing other than "10 to 20 years" was the initial possibility. In fact, the cure shouldn't even have been on the table assuming it would even work on her considering it's not an FDA approved drug and a court cannot force anyone to take a drug that isn't FDA approved.

Oh, and the Speed Force being evil! GASP! What a shocking development that hadn't been telegraphed in practically every interaction the thing has had with the cast over the entire run of the show. Especially season 3 where they are a prime jerkass to Barry and didn't know the meaning of the word sympathy or compassion.

[phoenics]

I'm glad the KF episodes are over - given the show didn't actually talk about the actual crimes KF committed, I don't feel she's faced justice at all.  I'm also wondering if she ever apologized to Cecile beyond that stupid girls' night episode where she didn't even apologize to Iris for trying to kill her and basically bashed Iris for forgiving her unprompted - she didn't apologize to Cecile either.  Neither of these women has ever had a real apology from KF for any of it.  

I'm tired of this show using the black characters to give KF/Cait a pass for abhorrent behavior.

And these two episodes didn't solve any of that - it just made it worse (by ignoring it) and forced me to sit and watch them parallel BLM with the most problematic character/actress left on this show.

Sadly I have forgotten this show is even on and it used to be my #1 show.

Clearly the casting of you know who is stunt casting in a last ditch effort to save the show.

Barry is stuck in this neverending non-growth cycle and it's painful to watch.

The only interesting thing right now is the whole SF storyline.  That's actually good.

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by phoenics

[adora721]

Well, considering the spoiler pics online of KF 

Spoiler

being out of prison and in the mix with Nora 2.0, Barry, and Impulse

the accountability for Killer Frost was never serious;  it was just performative accountability that shares nothing in common with the real experiences of real victims of bad policing.