Predator and Prey: Assault, harassment, and other aggressions in the entertainment industry

[Hiyo]

Quote

so you  include sex work as a respectable profession only to barely pay it lip service?  Why apply our own real world morality issues when you have a golden opportunity to reframe sex work as something akin to what a therapist or, hell, a chef does?

The ironic thing is, if he did base The Companions on professions like Geishas, who certainly aren't viewed as sex workers, then the attitude Mal has towards Inara makes even less sense, and is probably closer to how Joss views them himself.

[BetterButter]

Ghislaine Maxwell requests new trial after juror revealed abuse

Quote

Maxwell lawyers say ‘incontrovertible grounds’ for new trial after a juror shared personal abuse story in deliberations.

 

[Lugal]

23 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I meant Justice League. I know they were for different companies, but if you spend a bunch of time saying that filming one huge super hero movie was the worst experience of your life instead of talking about how good it is,  it's surprising to me that you get hired to direct another one. Like if you are a manager at McDonald's and you stand up on the counter one day and start telling about how terrible the place is, you probably aren't going to get hired at Wendy's. Because if you do it for one boss there is definitely a risk you do it for the other.

I get the feeling it was Warner's desperation.  The DCCU never took off like Marvel and when they had a chance, they thought: he's the guy that made Avengers a billion dollar movie, maybe he can do that for us. What's the worst that could happen?

7 hours ago, DearEvette said:

As much as I liked Firefly early on, that element always, always nagged at me.  It really is the mark of a mind that is not as creative as people like to hype up.

Exactly.  I still like Firefly, but it does have its problems.  There was clearly a different class of sexworkers: Companions and then the ones we saw in Heart of Gold.  If the show made it clear it was Mal's bias/issue it would be one thing, but it was clearly just Whedon being Whedon.  I agree he sacrificed his worldbuilding and went out of his way to insult a woman.

[Vermicious Knid]

Trailer for new docuseries We Need to Talk About Cosby dropped.

[Spartan Girl]

8 hours ago, Vermicious Knid said:

Trailer for new docuseries We Need to Talk About Cosby dropped.

Ooh just watching that made me angry all over again. Cosby couldn’t get enough cancer to satisfy me.

[GHScorpiosRule]

8 hours ago, Vermicious Knid said:

Trailer for new docuseries We Need to Talk About Cosby dropped.

I'm like Bell. I grew up watching Cosby. And I'll admit, I never knew this about him. And he was a big part of my childhood, so to learn what he was, I felt as if a piece of my childhood was violated and destroyed.

And the title in the link makes it sound like the show was dropped-as in cancelled. Not that the documentary will be streaming at the end of the month.

[Spartan Girl]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I'm like Bell. I grew up watching Cosby. And I'll admit, I never knew this about him. And he was a big part of my childhood, so to learn what he was, I felt as if a piece of my childhood was violated and destroyed.

I know. A while back I dig out an old video that was a recording of Sesame Streets anniversary back in the 80s/90s. My parents taped it for me when I was little, and I loved to watch it over and over. And it was fun watching it again after so long—until I saw that the host of the show was Cosby. All of a sudden those good nostalgic feelings were gone and I felt so violated.

[aradia22]

This is a theater story but it makes me sad so I don't want to put it in that thread. This all feels quite vague but since people aren't often actually fired, it seems like the investigation must have found something. 

Quote

Harry Potter and the Cursed Child star James Snyder has been fired from the Broadway show following an independent investigation sparked by a complain from his co-star.

Producers said Sunday that they received a complaint about Snyder, who plays Harry Potter in the show, from Diane Davis, who plays Harry’s wife, Ginny, on Nov. 19 about his “conduct.”

“Immediately upon receiving this complaint the producers commissioned an independent investigation by a third party, and Mr. Snyder was suspended pending the investigation’s completion,” they said. “At the conclusion of the investigation, the producers decided Mr. Snyder should not return to the production and terminated his contract.”

Davis has “made the personal decision to take a leave of absence. Out of respect for her privacy — and to maintain the integrity of the investigation — we will make no further comment regarding the matter.”

It’s unclear how long Davis’ leave of absence will be or the exact nature of her complaint.

The Hollywood Reporter has reached out to Snyder’s reps for comment.

For their part, Cursed Child’s producers added: “We are committed to fostering a safe and inclusive workplace, which is why we have robust workplace policies and procedures in place for all those involved in Harry Potter and the Cursed Child. This includes strict prohibitions against harassment in any form, as well as channels through which any employee can report conduct that they believe is inappropriate. We will continue to do all we can to ensure the extremely talented team that brings this production to life feels safe, empowered, and fully supported.”

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lifestyle/arts/harry-potter-and-the-cursed-child-star-james-snyder-fired-1235079772/

[MissAlmond]

Prince Andrew officially "demands" a trial by jury.

https://www.itv.com/news/2022-01-26/prince-andrew-demands-trial-by-jury-in-sexual-assault-case

https://news.sky.com/story/prince-andrew-demands-trial-by-jury-as-he-denies-all-virginia-giuffre-sex-assault-claims-12526085

[GaT]

2 hours ago, MissAlmond said:

Prince Andrew officially "demands" a trial by jury.

https://www.itv.com/news/2022-01-26/prince-andrew-demands-trial-by-jury-in-sexual-assault-case

https://news.sky.com/story/prince-andrew-demands-trial-by-jury-as-he-denies-all-virginia-giuffre-sex-assault-claims-12526085

That's good, because he's getting one whether he wants one or not.

[Blergh]

12 hours ago, GaT said:

That's good, because he's getting one whether he wants one or not.

Is the Duke of York hoping for a 'jury of his peers'? I seriously doubt that the 9th in line for the thrones Denmark, Spain, Norway, Sweden, or Monaco would want to go anywhere near that even if they met the citizenship requirements?

Edited January 27, 2022 by Blergh

[GaT]

6 minutes ago, Blergh said:

Is the Duke of York hoping for a 'jury of his peers'? I seriously doubt that the 9th in line for the thrones Denmark, Spain, Norway, Sweden, or Monaco would want to go anywhere near that even if met the citizenship requirements?

Well, I'm sure we can find 12 sex offenders to sit on the jury. That would do it.

[aradia22]

Quote

I arrived elegantly dressed, hoping to look grown-up and professional. I’d been interning for my mentor since I was 19, working on a total of six productions together. She had trusted me to care for Tony winners, promoted me to intern supervisor at my 20th birthday party, and believed in my writing when no one else did. So it was disconcerting when she barely acknowledged me during the meet-and-greet, disappearing without telling me what my work entailed. I was a few hours into feeling acutely useless when I looked up and found the lead actor staring. He smiled at me, and I smiled back: he was the most famous person in the room yet he was the only one looking at me rather than through me.

I was perusing the bulletin board when I heard a voice behind me, an eerily familiar one. He asked what I was doing before introducing himself, as though the whole world didn’t know his name. He seemed interested in me, a recent college graduate with no sign of a future beyond a carefully curated fitness Instagram. When my mentor saw us together she exclaimed, My two favorite people! They started raving about me, the movie star and the celebrity composer, causing my fragile self-esteem to soar. He’d ordered too much food and asked if I would join him for lunch. I declined, but he insisted, Come on. At least a salad?

Quote

When I sat at my desk, he was lying under it. I was wearing a dress and crossed my legs on instinct. He asked about my brother, were we close? He thinks I’m kind of a loser. The movie star was incredulous: but your older sister can teach you so much! He had one, an almost equally famous one, who had once imparted a valuable lesson: he was bragging to a friend about a girl going down on him, and his sister pulled him aside, demanding to know whether he’d returned the favor. When he confirmed he hadn’t, she lectured him, insisting that you always reciprocate when someone does that for you. See? You can learn a lot from your big sister.

Later he wrapped his arms around me from behind, his grip oppressively tight. Eventually he asked, Are you starting to feel caged in? and I exhaled, A little. As his hands reluctantly left my body, he quizzed me on whether I was a good boxer, thrusting his palms out. Show me your stuff. I punched weakly at first, aware of how unprofessional I must look, but he instructed I punch harder. My jabs were increasing in intensity when my mentor interrupted, declaring the two of us, Hilarious. He told her he was happy he had a new friend and she replied, I mean, look at that face! How can you resist? As they stared at me, I tried to ignore this feeling that was taking over; the feeling of being fetishized. That’s when he said I was, Beautiful.

Quote

He was taking the NQR home, but I preferred the 1. You should start taking the NQR. Right now. With me. He waited for me to accept, and I could tell it only intrigued him further when I didn’t.

I texted a friend about the day’s events, and she said it was the best thing that had ever happened to her. Another friend was excited I could potentially lose my virginity to this movie star. I googled his age as I walked home: 35, on the cusp of turning 36. But he was aware of my youth, and seemed to be okay with it. I didn’t stop to wonder if I was okay with things. When I got home, my mom probed me for details. I told my brother the movie star said he should be nicer to me and he rolled his eyes. I wasn’t exactly popular with men, it didn’t make sense that the person who’d hit on me the most in my life was this celebrity, a man who could have anyone he wanted. He thought I was making it up, and a part of me did too.

Quote

I was responding to emails when he grabbed me by the chin, Why are you so cute? He turned my face towards my mentor, Is she not the cutest thing? As he walked away, he commanded, Stop being so cute loud enough for everyone to hear. My mentor asked me how old I was and when I said 23 she groaned, Oh God, as though it was the worst answer I could have given. I asked, Why is that a bad thing? I wanted her to address what was happening, to say, Because you’re too young and this is inappropriate, anything that might let me know how she was feeling. She left for a meeting instead.

During the break, he put his head on my shoulder, Is it ok if I sleep on you? I looked around the room: the director was there, cast members, the accompanist, too many people to count. I wondered what they must think of me: the intern with a movie star asleep on her shoulder. My mentor texted: All steady there? I let her know things were good, and she replied: You are our good look charm. Don’t move!!! He flirted with me during lunch, inviting me to Hillary Clinton’s birthday party before stating, So, are you going to take my number or not. As the day wore on, I began to shiver in the air-conditioned room. He was in the middle of a scene when he ran over, placing his sweater on my bare legs. During lunch he confided, I’m glad I met you. Now I have a homie. I smiled, I’m your rehearsal homie and he shot back, Just in rehearsal? 

Quote

Once the song had been successfully staged, the movie star took my hand in his, examining each of my fingers, We should get married. I replied, Okay without glancing up from my computer. I’m serious. We should just disappear and get married and have a bunch of kids. I looked up, I’m too old for you. He chuckled, I’m trying really hard not to find you hot so we can be friends. As he worked through his next song, I decided to ask myself if I found him hot. My friends and family and seemingly everyone did, but I wasn’t sure where I stood. I watched him tuck into the black and white cookies he’d asked me to buy him, crumbs falling down the grey t-shirt he’d worn for the past three days. His slouched posture, the slightly unsettling glint in his eyes, the confidence that oozed out of his pores, confidence that occasionally felt like arrogance. There was something about him that mildly repulsed me, but here was this man every woman wanted: what was wrong with me if I wasn’t attracted to him?

The New York Times was scheduled to arrive during lunch, hoping to capture a clip of the movie star for their In Performance series. As we waited, he put his head on my shoulder, eyes fluttering shut. Three of the theatre’s administrative assistants entered the room: I could feel their shock as they took in the sight of the two of us. Once the recording was over, my phone buzzed with a text from the president of the theater: I hear you and the movie star have become friends. As I deliberated over how to respond, he texted: Hi. He was staging a scene that would be viewed by thousands, yet for whatever reason, I was on his mind. I typed back: Hello. We shared a quick look and I felt a thrill, like we were in high school, passing notes back and forth.

The president had me stop by her office, Go for it! I would if I were you. There was a framed picture of the two of them on her desk staring back at me. Have fun. But don’t get too attached. Apparently, the movie star had a bit of a reputation, which was news to me. News I tried to pretend didn’t rattle me. She warned, Don’t do anything until the show’s over, and I let her know he was the one who seemed incapable of waiting. At the end of rehearsal, my mentor asked me to take the movie star to wardrobe for his fitting. He teased, They don’t trust me to get there on my own? I didn’t know how to explain it, why we were always being paired together. When I left, he sent me a broken heart emoji. Later he texted: I like you D, and I almost fell off the treadmill.

Quote

His assistant arrived that day and was with us constantly, irritating me: how were things supposed to advance with her here? And what was the matter with me that I wanted them to advance at all? We were switching locations for the afternoon, and his assistant asked for my number in case she couldn’t get a hold of him. Within a matter of minutes, she had realized that if she wanted to find her boss, all she had to do was locate me.

Quote

He grabbed my hand as we entered the studio, I’m stressed. And I like having you near me. He’d been tired lately, and I confessed I had been too. That I would wake up at dawn painfully anxious, incapable of going back to bed. That happens to me every day. I must be rubbing off on you. I was mimicking his sleep patterns unknowingly: the word ‘fate’ teased the corners of my mind, like maybe this connection was larger than both of us. You should give into it. The flirting. It’s fun. Here it was. The acknowledgment I’d been both dreading and anticipating. I could feel the air leave the room as I tried to figure out what to say: that it wasn’t always fun for me? That it was confusing and stressful, but that I was also developing feelings for him? Unless… does it make you uncomfortable? And this is something I still beat myself up for: he gave me the opportunity to say, Yes it does. To say, I don’t like it when you grab my chin like I’m a doll or objectify me to the people we work with. But I hadn’t yet figured out it was natural to feel uncomfortable. I thought the moments where I did were my problem, something I had to overcome. And when he asked me that question, it was just the two of us. Time had gone by, we’d built up a rapport, and I trusted him. If he’d asked me the first day, I might have admitted, Yes, even though that answer carried the risk of being exiled at work. Instead, I said, No, it doesn’t make me uncomfortable. And having spoken those words, I’ve wondered if I have a right to publish this essay.

The president cautioned, You seem stressed as soon as she saw me. I pulled out my phone and typed a note for her: It’s so hard because I do like him. And now I’m confused. And then he was flirting and I always sort of brush it off and he said I should give in to the flirting because it’s fun. But I want to stay professional too! I just feel very out of my element and I don’t know what I’m doing. I don’t want to get attached but I’m worried I will. She nodded before passing my phone back to me; I don’t believe we addressed what I wrote again.

He left the cast party early that night: my paranoia that everyone hated me was overwhelming. I hadn’t had to fully deal with those fears because I’d been shielded by him, his adoration softening the blow of any reproachful looks sent my way. My mentor approached, How are you? A pleasantry you’re only supposed to answer one way, but I was too tired to lie, I’ve been feeling kind of anxious lately. Her eyes widened, About? This? My mouth opened to say, I don’t know what’s happening what do you think please help me, but nothing came out. She stared ahead vacantly, like she was already bored. I inhaled, summoning courage: I wanted to ask you — The director interrupted, thanking my mentor for taking a chance on her as I swallowed the words I never got a chance to speak. I heard my mentor proclaim, We’ve got to have each other’s backs. It’s tough being a woman in this industry. Domenica knows, with her writing.

Quote

My mentor disappeared, leaving me with the director. She asked if she could read my play, an empty promise I dared get excited about. You’re very smart. I’ve been raving about you. I didn’t understand how she could tell I was smart, what there was to rave about. You’ve been crucial. Between you, me and your mentor, we’re getting this performance out of him. I said the only thing I could think of, the only response that seemed appropriate. He just needs to see me there, nodding and smiling. Telling him how great he is. She beamed, Exactly. A lot of young women in your position wouldn’t see things quite so clearly. Was this how she knew I was smart? Because I could play the muse without getting attached? What if she discovered I liked him? That I was lost and desperate for guidance? That to not see things clearly was human, and I would spend years punishing myself for not being the unaffected intern they wanted me to be. For hearing that sentence and not asking, What do you mean? Are there other young women? Because I’m not sure that’s okay it doesn’t feel okay. He texted: We should hang out — just you and me and I left before she could realize I wasn’t as smart as she thought.

Quote

6AM on the dot. But this time I smiled, because he was awake too. He texted: Miss you and my smile grew. I showered quickly, agonized over which dress was the right dress, work now a place where my looks were constantly being evaluated. When it was time for his nap, he lay his head on my lap in full view of everyone. Stayed there for ten minutes, murmuring, You’re soft when his skull made contact with my thighs. I didn’t know where to put my hands: should I place them on my legs, my knuckles grazing his hair? Or should I fold them over my chest so everyone can see that I did not ask for this? I let them hang limply at my sides, afraid to accidentally touch anything that did not belong to me.

Quote

Once I was alone, I opened a carton of Brussels sprouts and began devouring them. Shoving down one after another until my mouth was crammed and my fork was still digging. I couldn’t stop, even though the taste of oil was beginning to sicken me. I was angry at myself for volunteering to wait around for some guy. For putting myself in this position where I felt so pitiful. I wanted punishment, deserved punishment, for my idiocy. But he looked wounded in that moment: being there for him had become my job. Nodding and smiling were the supposedly critical ingredients I was adding, and I had to keep providing them until the show was over. But there were moments where my body fought back and this was one, my sprout shoveling hand desperate to suppress the thoughts of dumb pathetic unprofessional crazy slut.

Quote

DAY SIX: Tech had begun, which meant we’d officially relocated to the theatre. When he spotted me from onstage he smiled weakly: that was the only time he acknowledged me all day. I went from crucial to expendable in less than 24 hours. There were moments when my mentor called me over and I stood right next to him. My heart caught in my throat, hoping he would say something, anything, but it was like I had become invisible. I was running errands when his best friend beckoned me from his dressing room. She began making small talk: each second was agony. I was terrified he would find me there and think I had come looking for him. Being ignored was humiliating enough, I couldn’t bear to lose my dignity too. Let him think it didn’t affect me, that I hadn’t spent the entire day trying to figure out what I had done wrong. When I returned to the theatre, he was gone. My mentor was asking the stage manager for extra rehearsal hours. She emphasized how well the cast had been taken care of, Domenica has gone above and beyond! Did above and beyond mean placing each actress’ flowered hat safely in her hands? Or did it mean letting her star sleep on my soft legs without complaint?

My mentor invited me to a mutual friend’s party. As we walked, I kept waiting for her to address the elephant in the room. We could laugh about it or fight about it or whatever about it but at least I could finally stop holding my breath around her. When we first met, she called me out for being too perfect. She had promised to knock that perfectionism out of me, but the good girl inside me still craved her approval, was desperate to know what she was thinking. But the closest we got in 30 blocks was when she told me she’d refused to let The Times clip run. She knew the movie star would be an insecure wreck if he watched it, which was the last thing anyone needed. I keep telling him how great he is! Her mouth pursed, Maybe if you say it he’ll listen.

I kept replaying the day over in my head. I checked my phone constantly: it was the first day since we’d exchanged numbers that he hadn’t texted me. My mentor’s boyfriend came up to me, You look stressed. I instantly felt ashamed: had I looked like this at work? Could everyone tell I was crawling inside of my own skin? I hear the movie star just loves you. My blood ran cold. She was telling people. Of course she was telling people. What did I expect? We were hot gossip: the movie star and the intern. My life a source of entertainment.

Quote

My mother had been preparing for this day since that first frantic phone call, striving to ensure her daughter looked perfect at the gala for the movie star. I had found Prince Charming, now it was a matter of keeping him. Which dress are you wearing? No. Too young. Too boring. The short, skintight one. Hair and makeup? You don’t have time, make time. This is a black-tie event where you will both be in attendance, a gift from the gods, an opportunity to look irresistible. Don’t waste it. As my hair was carefully curled, my lips lightly glossed, I tried to mentally prepare myself: he’s done with you. Any hopes and expectations you’ve formed must be killed. Tonight’s about him: do your job, and let this finally end.

As I prepped backstage, my inner narrative began to shift. What was it the director had said? That I was one of three people getting this performance from him. The show needed me. I could mope and stay out of sight, or I could choose to believe I was important to him, and that if he was nervous, I was the person he trusted to reassure him. I walked to his dressing room and raised my fist to knock. I was debating whether this was a terrible idea when the door swung open, Hi. He smiled, providing all the encouragement I needed. I just wanted to say, you’re going to be amazing. He hugged me, You look beautiful. Let me look at you. I indulged him when he asked me to twirl, his assistant entering the room without batting an eye.

After the musical was over, I ran backstage to help the actors get ready for the gala. As I poured wine for patiently waiting spouses, his manager approached. I escorted him to the movie star’s dressing room, where his friends stood sipping champagne, his crowd of a different ilk than I was used to. Before I could leave, my mentor called me over. She was with an older woman who was wiping away tears, evidently moved by the performance. The crying woman locked eyes with me, Thank you. For everything you’ve done for him. He’s talked so much about you. As I left, I whispered to my mentor, Who was that? The movie star’s mother.

Once I had attended to my duties, I joined my family at the gala. My father thanked my mentor for taking such good care of me. Your daughter’s a born producer, she announced as my parents beamed with pride. I was in the middle of telling a story when I caught the movie star staring at me. He slowly smiled, and I slowly smiled back, stunned by my real-life movie moment. Our eyes had met across a crowded room. Me, the ordinary girl turned Cinderella. Him, the famous movie star everyone wanted but couldn’t have. The two of us, somehow finding each other.

Quote

The movie star asked if I wanted a ride home, and I gladly accepted.

Fans jumped into action as soon as they saw him, hungrily snapping photos and thrusting Playbills his way. He signed one before climbing into the car, instructing me to sit in the back next to him. As we drove through the empty city, he started inching closer to me. I followed his lead until we met in the middle, his hand finding mine, lightly tracing each of my fingers. My heart was beating faster than it ever had, and I was certain this was the most romantic night of anyone’s life. When we arrived at his apartment, we stood in the street, lingering like teenagers. Will I see you tomorrow? I smiled, I’ll be there. Him, Ok. Me, Ok. Him, Ok. It was the you hang up no you hang up moment I’d never had growing up, and it was exhilarating. When I got home, I collapsed onto my bed, heels dangling in the air. My phone lit up, the movie star: You looked very sexy tonight. Thank you for being there for me. I typed back: And you looked very handsome. Another text: We really need to spend time. Just you and me.

Quote

The Times review was a rave. Ben Brantley tripped over his feet with praise, and I expected the movie star to be euphoric at rehearsal. But he kept his eyes downcast, refusing to look at me. I punished myself for being too needy, hated that I cared. As I waited backstage, he stormed past me, and I willed the floor to swallow me whole. My mentor sat down, her mouth set in a firm line, He really needs to focus right now. The look on her face told me everything I needed to know: I had become an unnecessary distraction, a puppy in the corner begging for a scratch behind the ears, and my transformation wasn’t subtle. I felt like I disgusted her with my longing. It was over: she had her review, and now when she saw me, I was a living reminder of the compromise she’d made.

He seemed happy to see me by intermission, You are so sexy. When do we get to be alone? During the second act, desire spread through my body for the first time. Everyone in that theatre had paid to see him, but he wanted me. It was an intoxicating realization for a girl with no self-esteem, and it gave me the illusion that I was powerful. After the show, he teased me for not telling him my parents had been at the gala, Why didn’t you introduce me to my in-laws? I laughed even though the joke had stopped being funny. Once we were headed downtown, he unloaded: his performance hadn’t been as good, and the review I thought would make him happy had done the opposite. He now had to live up to the impossible standards Brantley had set for him. Audiences were expecting to experience something unforgettable: how could he deliver on that promise? When we got to his apartment, he chided his best friend for not coming that night, I was all alone. I wanted to remind him that I had been there, that I had enjoyed his performance, but I knew it was pointless. His dog was hiding under the table and I joined him, grateful for the refuge this beautiful animal provided.

The movie star lay on the floor next to me, his hand finding mine in a mountain of black fur. He told me he was leaving for a month and my heart sank, When are we going to hang out? His eyes bore into mine as I murmured, You tell me. I would do anything he asked, pretending otherwise was insulting to us both. Tomorrow was closing, what about after the show? I like your outfit. But the problem with a shirt like that is all you want to do is take it off. As we waited for the elevator, he held me in his arms. I could feel his heart pounding against my chest. When I walked home that night, I dared to get excited about tomorrow. To imagine what it would be like, this private time he had been asking for. I knew the odds of me seeing him again were slim: should I have sex with him? Everyone in my life was so excited by what was happening, demanding updates, wanting to hear every detail of this whirlwind romance. I couldn’t waste this opportunity, couldn’t risk messing up and disappointing everybody. I was living their fantasy. So why couldn’t I sleep?

Quote

She was loving and supportive and she believed in me even when I didn’t. She left shortly after, and I grinned into my teacup. For the first time, we were alone, and it was both liberating and terrifying. He looked me in the eye, the cerulean blue never ceasing to take my breath away, I’m glad I got to see you. I kept my smile shy, looked down at the floor, Thanks for having me over. I was buttoning my coat when he suddenly strode across the room, took my face in his hands, and kissed me. He leaned his forehead against mine, I just… I had to kiss you. His lips found mine again, hungry, and what had been soft and gentle became aggressive. I tried to keep up, scared my inexperience would show. His hands palmed my breasts through my coat and I hoped he wouldn’t unbutton it while knowing that if he did I wouldn’t have stopped him. I was relieved when he pulled away, breathing, I have to go against my lips.

We got in the elevator and he kissed me again, pressing me up against the wall so fast I didn’t have time to second guess a thing. We hugged goodbye, a smile so big I didn’t know what to do with it settling on my face. He texted, That was nice and my smile somehow managed to grow. My mother and friends sat around me in a circle that night, eager to hear my storybook romance from start to finish.

Quote

DAY FORTY-ONE: Somehow, the romance continued. Just when I thought he’d forgotten me, he would text: Hey you. My friends marveled as my phone lit up with his name: More time together please. I was excited for him to come back, couldn’t help but count the days. I played the game well, rarely initiating a conversation, prompting him to type: How come I don’t hear from you? A shooting star sent as he landed in Oklahoma, pictures of the set: You miss me? And I did. Thirty-one days since our first kiss, thirty-one days that would be neatly summed up in a movie montage. We agreed to get together the Friday after Thanksgiving. I came back from Long Island early, asked what time we should meet. Hours later he replied that he was still in Vermont. As I sat alone in my apartment, humiliation raged in my chest. When he texted the next day asking to meet up, I didn’t hesitate. My hair was straightened, my eyebrows plucked, my make-up delicately applied, my heart thumping as I rang the doorbell.

Seeing him after a month of longing was painfully anti-climactic. He looked different, dark and brooding in a way I had previously only caught glimpses of. Conversation had always flowed in the busy rehearsal room, but now it felt forced. He didn’t waste much time, kissing me before I could sip my tea, maneuvering my body like we were performing a dance I was supposed to know the steps to. He backed me up against the fridge within seconds, swiftly moving us towards his bedroom, my top flung off before I could figure out how he’d done it. Things were moving too fast and my brain was trying to keep up. His hands were about to remove my bra and I felt scared by the ferocity of his desire but I didn’t know how to express any of it so I just stood there. Eventually my lips stopped kissing and he asked if everything was okay. This is totally embarrassing but I’m really hungry. I ran to my purse, pulling out a bag of dried edamame. I put my shirt on in between bites as he watched me with a bemused expression. He announced, You’re so different, and all I could think was: from who?

We sat at his dining table as I finished my fistfuls of green and in those minutes that could have been hours, I felt calm. I was beginning to enjoy myself when he sighed, Maybe we should do this when I’m less tired. I shot up like I’d been scalded, ashamed for having overstayed my welcome. What’s on your mind? I was thinking a million thoughts, the loudest being: don’t fuck this up. We were kissing earlier and then we stopped and… did you not want to be kissing? I could hear the same insecurities that had wracked him during rehearsal, and knew it was my job to make them evaporate. Of course I do. A half-truth. I wanted to kiss but not like that, not like I was an object for consumption. So would you want to keep kissing? I paused: my options were to say yes or go home, and I wasn’t ready to do the latter, so I walked over, sat on his lap, and kissed him. He carried me to his room, and I knew this time we would not leave.

I had never had sex, had only given one blow job, and was hoping this 35-year-old movie star would not notice. He pulled down my tights, his hands already working inside my panties. His jeans were unbuttoned, his boxers pulled down, and as he maneuvered my body on top of his I realized that if he were to thrust upwards, we’d be doing something I wasn’t ready for. I blurted, I can’t have sex tonight. I could hear the irritation in his voice, Any particular reason? My cheeks were hot with shame, No. I just… His tone changed, Of course. That’s totally ok and I was so grateful I took his penis into my mouth, cleaning his come off my body within minutes.

My breasts were still exposed when he turned to me, You know what’s on my mind? That you’re 23. And we met on the show and… did I somehow take advantage of things? Forty-one days and an orgasm later and now there were things on his mind that he’d known from the moment we met. What year were you born in? 1993. He winced, That’s a big age difference. We’d gone back to when he’d slammed me into the fridge: him with a fixed destination in mind, me struggling to keep up. What was your longest relationship? My hands were searching desperately for my bra as I admitted, Nonexistent. There was quiet, followed by the question I had spent my entire adult life dreading, But you’ve had sex, right? I stayed silent, avoiding his eyes. I mean…. I could lie. When I looked at his face, I knew it was over. It’s not because I have romantic ideals or anything, it’s just never been right. I’m sorry. He asked why I was apologizing, Because I feel like I just watched my stock plummet. He made me shake his hand and promise I wouldn’t waste any more time before telling me he was glad we didn’t have sex that night. He stood abruptly: his flight was leaving early and he had to pack. I stumbled into the bathroom: my make-up was smeared, my hair damp with semen, my eyes brimming with tears I refused to let fall. I was furious with myself: for being young, for being a virgin, for apologizing for any of it. I couldn’t bear the thought of going home, of having to tell anyone about this. My mother had cried when he’d texted confirming our date: everyone who heard the whirlwind tale thought we were meant to be. And now I’d ruined everything.

I’m sorry for unloading all of that. I shook my head, Thanks for being honest. I didn’t recognize my words as I spoke them, had become a stranger to myself. His eyes slowly traced my frame, You’re trouble. I pleaded, I’m really not though is the thing. He told me he’d feel better in the morning before kissing me at the door, and I swore I could taste something ending. It took him a few weeks to ghost me, and the occasional texts, the illusion of false hope they provided, was crushing. But my intuition had been right. I suppose it had been all along.

Quote

THE AFTERMATH: The show moved to Broadway, and my mentor did not ask me to join her. I spent months trying to figure out what I’d done; when I ran into cast members and they asked me why I wasn’t working on the show, I didn’t have an answer. The movie star was one of the producers: my father warned me there was a possibility he had asked for me not to be involved, but I refused to believe him. The first week of rehearsal I sent him a gift: I had accidentally broken a vase when I’d first visited his apartment. He’d teased me about it often, so I purchased a replacement, tucked his favorite cookies inside, and placed a note on top: From: A 23 year old. When he texted to say thank you, I asked if we could meet up. He never replied, and I was so angry at myself for my misstep that I violently forced my fingers down my throat for the first time in years.

Three months later, he texted: How are you? Hope all is well with you. I pinched myself until my skin was raw, certain I was dreaming. I told him I was well: he had ignored me for over three months and I had caved in under an hour. You haven’t seen the show! When I didn’t respond, he followed up with Have you? I admitted I had. Why didn’t you come say hi!! I burst into the hysterical laughter of a woman who has justifiably gone insane. Another text: I wish I could have said hi to you. It was arranged that I would come see the show and that we would see each other when I did. I had lost weight since he’d disappeared and as I waited in the lobby of the fancy theatre, my jutting hipbones provided a temporary shield.

When his eyes locked on mine, I felt nothing. Was this really the man everyone told me I belonged with? He seemed nervous as he hugged me, his eyes darting around the room. He was headed to Paris to do press for his upcoming film; I scolded myself for picking such an inconvenient performance. Gone were my fantasies of drinking whiskey in his apartment, of having sex because he had taken so much from me, he might as well take my virginity too. He paused his shuffling to briefly make eye contact, We should see each other when I’m back. If I had played my hand correctly I would have said, We’ll see and he would have asked me to come over for coffee before his flight. But I was unaware that this was a game, that I was a mouse being chased by a wolf who was skilled at accumulating prey. So I decided to be honest, admitting, I would like that. He observed me before stating, You seem good. Very chill. It felt like a criticism: why was I so calm in his presence? And given that I had spent months obsessing over him, I wasn’t sure. I felt certain I could never see him again and be fine but I was also certain that him remembering me after all this time had to mean something. When he promised, So we’ll see each other, I believed he meant it.

I waited for his text, but it never came. After a month I caved, typing: I didn’t get a chance to say — the performance I saw was really something. He never responded. Weeks later I was having tea with an acquaintance when she brought up the movie star without knowing our history. Her friend was his publicist and was constantly putting out fires on his behalf. Apparently, he falls in love with these young interns and PAs on sight, pursues them obsessively, and then has some sort of freak out a month in and disappears. I felt like I was falling into an abyss, hearing about my life from someone else’s mouth. My first thought wasn’t, He’s a predator who targets women who work for him. It was, How could you be so stupid? I became sick overnight. My appetite shut down: most days I couldn’t eat until 9pm. I went to closing with my parents: when I congratulated my mentor she glanced at me coolly, seemingly forgetting I had once been a part of this. She made it clear I was not invited to the after party and as I left, I was flooded with shame.

I started writing a film about my experience: everyone told me it was a love story. Some friends held out that we were still meant to be, that one day we would run into each other and he would no longer be able to hide from his feelings. And there were aspects of the story that felt like they were copied and pasted out of a rom-com: the things he’d said, all the times we’d almost met that he couldn’t remember but maybe he could because didn’t he feel like he knew me? I told myself I was in love with him: that had to be why this was so painful. Why I couldn’t move on, why I could no longer listen to my favorite musical, why I spent years depressed over a man I had barely known. And my dwindling relationship with my mentor? She was angry at me for being unprofessional, and I was happy to do my penance until she forgave me.

 

Quote

 I was a commodity offered up by my mentor to make the process easier. I still haven’t confronted her because I’m terrified she’ll scoff, We both know you wanted it. And she’s right: a part of me did. But that part was never consenting. Consent became impossible the moment he commented on my appearance at work. I can never know what my true feelings were because he crossed boundaries that didn’t exist for him, boundaries I didn’t know I had to protect. I’m worried nobody will care when I share this, that people will think I’m reading too much into things. It’s hard living in the grey area that isn’t actually grey, to be the one telling yourself what happened was unacceptable when everyone acted like you’d won the lottery the moment he hit on you. I’ve debated whether I put this out into the world because I don’t want to hurt anyone, including myself. But I don’t think I’m the only woman this actor has done this dance with. It was too well choreographed. And as much as my brain likes to tell me otherwise, I’m not an idiot for falling for it: I’m human. I was young, naïve, insecure and all those things made me the perfect target. I believed I was living a fairy tale, and society upheld that narrative. But it was a nightmare, one I’m still scarred from. And this man was enabled in his behavior at every step, which makes it hard for me to believe he’s an anomaly. And people like my mentor probably tell themselves these young women are lucky, but I’m here to vehemently disagree. Because the aftermath that never ends? It isn’t worth the fairytale.

https://medium.com/@domenicamferaud/the-movie-star-and-me-5d711ee661e3

I admit I like Jake Gyllenhaal as an actor and have a strong bias towards the mentor (Jeanine Tesori). It certainly sounds like some unprofessional, no boundaries conversations and workplace flirtation. But the writer of this article also seems to have a lot of those young person spiky feelings (like not being acknowledged and lapping up praise but also feeling "fetishized" at being called attractive) that don't really imply wrongdoing on anyone else's part. I don't know if that's coming through because she's writing from the position of the present or because she has some mental health issues. There is a lot of insecurity and anxiety and implied anorexia/disordered eating. Her job as intern seems to have been some kind of talent wrangler except this time the actor in question was interested in pursuing a romantic relationship and she was also kind of interested but also not but also didn't really complain to anyone during the times she wasn't interested? So much of this (at least about Tesori) feels like her internal feelings and her interpretation of being judged and not anything that was actually happening. If she never expressed discomfort, shouldn't she be allowed the agency to pursue something she apparently wanted? Everything feels like it's filtered through her social anxiety and low self-esteem and feelings of inferiority. It comes through especially in how terrible she feels interacting with Jake's family. Their one hookup doesn't sound great but it's not even as coercive as the Aziz Ansari story.

I feel sorry for this girl. But I don't think Jeanine did anything wrong because Domenica never said anything to her and seemed to think Jeanine should know that Domenica wasn't interested (but also kind of was) and needed someone to step in to make the choice for her. Jake was wrong to pursue her because of the age gap and the working relationship and the power imbalance. 

[merylinkid]

16 hours ago, MissAlmond said:

Prince Andrew officially "demands" a trial by jury.

https://www.itv.com/news/2022-01-26/prince-andrew-demands-trial-by-jury-in-sexual-assault-case

https://news.sky.com/story/prince-andrew-demands-trial-by-jury-as-he-denies-all-virginia-giuffre-sex-assault-claims-12526085

That's just a technical thing.   If you want a jury trial instead of a trial by a judge you have to ask for one.   I am not reaaaaallll sure of this strategy.    Maxwell just had a jury trial and look how it worked out for her.   Giuffre testified so they already know how she will do on the stand.   The jury also found her at least a bit credible.   So again, they know how juries see her.  The standard is lower in a civil trial and knowing a jury was willing to convict beyond a reasonable doubt on conspiracy rather than actual statutory rape might be something to think about.    

[MissAlmond]

5 hours ago, merylinkid said:

That's just a technical thing.   If you want a jury trial instead of a trial by a judge you have to ask for one.   I am not reaaaaallll sure of this strategy. 

Yes. I read that later.  According to Gloria Allred and Lisa Bloom, Virginia already asked for a trial by jury so Andrew's response for the same was- as you said - a legal technicality.  It was just spun by certain parts of the media as meaning something more, but what else is new?

Andrew's attorneys' legal strategy seems to be: "Andrew didn't know her, but if he did know her, he didn’t have sex with her, but if he did have sex with her, it was consensual.”

Edited January 27, 2022 by MissAlmond

[BlackberryJam]

Legal terms can seem weird.

To request a jury, you have to file a demand.

When you file a lawsuit, you include a “prayer for relief.”

It’s annoying when clickbait latches on to those terms as if they mean something other than the basic legal request language.

ETA @aradia22 That’s….complicated. I’m not sure if it’s an indicator of a pattern of predation on his part, but all of her insecurities are on display. Men need education on consent, and it appears that he did get that from her, he stopped when she seemed uncomfortable, he asked her questions. At the same time he either knew or should have known he was exploiting a power dynamic and age difference. She complicated matters by indicating agreement and not expressing her feelings.

At the same time, I’ve been in relationships like that, feeling like her, when I was her age, absent the power/age dynamic. I felt like I should want a guy I didn’t actually want and therefore did things, moved things, progressed with him physically, when I didn’t want it, but felt like I should. 

Just …complicated.

Edited January 27, 2022 by BlackberryJam

[aradia22]

RE: The Movie Star and Me

I think the most damning things are him allegedly lying under her desk and the sexual anecdote which are why she brings them up early. This show was put together in about a week and people, Jake especially, seemed to treat it like summer camp. But that theater kid behavior is stuff you do in high school. After the job ended, she seemed to allow all these external voices, friends, family, etc. to encourage her to keep texting and drawing things out until that hookup. 

The other big red flag is that I've now seen a picture of her at the time and now, and she looks very young. Child-like even though she was 23 at the time. To the point that it gives me "if he could go younger, he would" vibes. 

I have seen it suggested that she might not be straight from some of the things she's written. If that's a part of it, I hope she can figure herself out and find some happiness and contentment. She's extremely privileged/wealthy and perhaps sheltered. It doesn't sound like she was equipped for this even after 4-5 years of interning if she was so easily overwhelmed by celebrity that after a week she began to feel she was integral to the production and Jake's performance. I don't think they served her up so much as let her make her own decisions. The president of the theater told her not to pursue it until the job was done and warned her not to catch feelings. Ultimately, Jake was doing typical fuckboi/emotional vampire things but he shouldn't have been doing in him in his mid-30s at work with someone so obviously young and naive. 

[BlackberryJam]

I've been thinking on this. At what age do we respect women to make their own decisions? She does seem extremely young in her thinking and perception, more high school than 23. There were check-ins, moments, questions, when she had the opportunity to voice her concerns, yet she makes the choice not to.

She makes those choices based on youth, inexperience, perceived pressure from mother/friends/mentor/Jake. Is it people's responsibility to respect the choices she was making or should people have stepped in to save her from those choices? I don't know.

Jake seems like a skeeve, but he also seemed to respect the NOs that she gave when it came to things physical. 

[aradia22]

Reddit is already having a field day throwing around "lovebombing" and "emotional abuse" and accusing every woman in the story of being Ghislaine Maxwell.

[Leeds]

Chris Brown is being sued for alleged assault.  From The Guardian article:

"A woman is suing the R&B singer Chris Brown for $20m for allegedly drugging and raping her on a yacht docked at a property in Miami owned by P Diddy, Rolling Stone has reported."

From The Rolling Stone article:

"A rep for Brown did not immediately return Rolling Stone‘s request for comment, although Brown himself appeared to address the suit on his Instagram. “I hope y’all see this pattern of [cap],” he wrote on his stories. “Whenever I’m releasing music or projects, ‘THEY’ try to pull some real bullshit.” "

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/jan/28/chris-brown-sued-for-allegedly-drugging-and-raping-woman-on-yacht

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/chris-brown-rape-miami-yacht-lawsuit-1291735/
 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Leeds
Chris Brown, not Rock. Thanks ScorpiosRule.

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, Leeds said:

Chris Rock is being sued for alleged assault.

It's actually Chris Brown, per the links you provided. You may want to edit your post, as Chris Rock is someone different.

[Leeds]

3 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

It's actually Chris Brown, per the links you provided. You may want to edit your post, as Chris Rock is someone different.

Thanks!  With luck I corrected my careless error quickly enough that I won't be sued for slander!

[BlackberryJam]

Chris Brown being violent to women. I’m shocked, shocked I say.

[ifionlyknew]

44 minutes ago, Leeds said:

"A rep for Brown did not immediately return Rolling Stone‘s request for comment, although Brown himself appeared to address the suit on his Instagram. “I hope y’all see this pattern of [cap],” he wrote on his stories. “Whenever I’m releasing music or projects, ‘THEY’ try to pull some real bullshit.

I do see a pattern here.  The pattern is you Chris.

[possibilities]

I'm shocked he hasn't been sued more often.

[methodwriter85]

On 1/17/2022 at 9:07 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

The other excuse that surprised me was when he talked about how any inappropriate behavior when Buffy first started was because he was so young, when he was 31. If you make it to 31 and haven't figured out how to behave in a professional setting maybe it is just because you are an asshole.

Oh my god, you just reminded me of the old Television Without Pity joke about J. Lo that went, "Leave her alone- she's only 33!" 

[Trini]

One review of We Need to Talk About Cosby, if anyone is interested in how they approach the subject: 'We Need to Talk About Cosby Grapples With The Two Bill Cosbys'

[aradia22]

Quote

Shawn and Gershon, for example, have top billing in Allen’s latest movie, Rifkin’s Festival, whose cast includes Richard Kind and Christoph Waltz, and the press tour has given them ample opportunity to air their grievances with those who’ve turned on Allen. In November, Shawn penned an open letter lamenting that the director had become a “pariah.” This week, he said he’d “followed the case,” “read quite a bit about it,” and “saw the documentary trying to substantiate Dylan’s story,” and yet, he says, “I don’t believe that this happened.” He also called actors’ decisions not to work with Allen a “miscarriage of justice” and called on his fellow Allen sympathizers to help turn “the tide” back in the director’s favor.

Shawn continued his defense in an interview with Gershon on WGN9 in which he said, “I feel that Woody Allen is an innocent man, and it’s an injustice that we’re even talking about this.” He continued:

It’s up to each one of us to study the case if you want to get into it. But I think the more you study it, the more you see that either he did what he’s accused of or he didn’t, either she is strangely mistaken about what she sincerely believes or he is strangely someone who wildly committed a very unlikely crime. And I think he didn’t do it.

Shawn added that everyone “has their strange personal life,” which is one way to describe initiating a relationship with your girlfriend’s 21-year-old-daughter.

Quote

Gershon, for her part, justified her involvement with the movie by calling the accusations a “family matter.” She added:

It serves no one to keep great artists from working, even the alleged victims, right? It makes me a little sad that that’s how you lead this whole talk, talking about all that controversy instead of talking about what an incredible artist he is.

Dylan, for what it’s worth, has repeatedly expressed that it is damaging to her to see actors working with her alleged abuser. In a 2017 L.A. Times op-ed, she wrote, “It breaks my heart when women and men I admire work with Allen.” 

https://www.thecut.com/2022/01/wallace-shawn-and-gina-gershon-defend-woody-allen.html

Well, this is upsetting. I refuse to let it ruin The Princess Bride or Showgirls retroactively but it still sucks. And have they seen his latest movies? He's not exactly making incredible art anymore.

[possibilities]

W. Kamau Bell was on The Daily Show talking about the Cosby docuseries recently. He and Trevor mostly talked about how stressed out WKB was and is about having made it, worried he will be canceled. He says he believes the women and takes them seriously, but that Cosby's work was also key to his own development and he thought it was important to address the complexity of that. 

Trevor said watching the series gave him more of an understanding of why Cosby matters, as he wasn't that big if a deal in South Africa and wasn't really part of Trevor's experience.

I have not seen the series. But I wish that WKB had a woman co-produce it with him. He apparently asked a lot of folks to participate and many said no, and he portrayed it as them being scared to speak publicly about it for fear of repercussions. 

I wonder why Hannibal Burress declined to participate. They said he's one of the few who publicly acknowledged that he turned down the opportunity. He broke the story open by featuring it in his stand up act, so I was surprised he specifically didn't want to talk about it now.

 

[merylinkid]

9 hours ago, aradia22 said:

his week, he said he’d “followed the case,” “read quite a bit about it,” and “saw the documentary trying to substantiate Dylan’s story,” and yet, he says, “I don’t believe that this happened.” He also called actors’ decisions not to work with Allen a “miscarriage of justice” and called on his fellow Allen sympathizers to help turn “the tide” back in the director’s favor.

A judge LITERALLY RULED IT HAPPENED.   Like if you read anything about the case, the Custody Order is OUT THERE.   A judge heard all the evidence, INCLUDING FROM WOODY ALLEN and decided it happened.   He gave Allen only supervised access which only happens if the parent is a danger to the child (not even if the parent is a danger only to the other parent).   

The absolutely inability of people to accept that it has been ruled on by a judge already AMAZES ME.   People will ignore any fact just to be on a Woody Allen (or Roman Polanski) film.   When they aren't even that great of directors.  

[Blergh]

1 hour ago, merylinkid said:

A judge LITERALLY RULED IT HAPPENED.   Like if you read anything about the case, the Custody Order is OUT THERE.   A judge heard all the evidence, INCLUDING FROM WOODY ALLEN and decided it happened.   He gave Allen only supervised access which only happens if the parent is a danger to the child (not even if the parent is a danger only to the other parent).   

The absolutely inability of people to accept that it has been ruled on by a judge already AMAZES ME.   People will ignore any fact just to be on a Woody Allen (or Roman Polanski) film.   When they aren't even that great of directors.  

Unless they do massive 180's and mea culpas for having chosen to be willfully ignorant of the legal  evidence presented  just so they could keep working with Mr. Allen, it looks as though I'm going to have to use my Patron Power to avoid seeing Miss Gershon's and Mr. Shawn's movies for the rest of their lives so I won't chance even minutely contributing to their livelihood. Too bad. 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Blergh

[ifionlyknew]

If someone wants to work with Woody Allen I'm going to lose respect for them.  But if you defend working with Woody Allen by saying you think it's all a lie in in which case you are calling the victim Dylan a liar you are going to be dead to me.  Not much I can do about things Wallace Shawn has already appeared in but not watching anything new he does.

[Mabinogia]

I really hate when artists defend their support over each other with the idea that being a "great artist" is more important than being even the lowest level of decent human. It really should be the other way around. Not harming others should be more important in the people you want to support than in them making good movies (I honestly have either hated or thought Allen's work okay but overly self-indulgent, so I just can't think of him as a great artist so much as an insufferable git who happens to be good at knowing what sells.) I might be biased, but I just don't think Allen's work is so great, or so important that it trumps abusing a child who trusted him. 

I think what it really is, is that they want a good paycheck, I am not sure either Gershon or Shawn are all that in demand, so they are trying to convince themselves they aren't selling their souls to the devil for a paycheck. 

[Guest]

14 hours ago, aradia22 said:

https://www.thecut.com/2022/01/wallace-shawn-and-gina-gershon-defend-woody-allen.html

Well, this is upsetting. I refuse to let it ruin The Princess Bride or Showgirls retroactively but it still sucks. And have they seen his latest movies? He's not exactly making incredible art anymore.

I can’t decide which infuriates me more, people who use the great artists defense or those who have definitively decided that Woody must be innocent without any really acknowledgement of their own bias or the behavior that isn’t in dispute.

Shawn says that he has researched and feels that Allen didn’t molest Dylan on that day. I disagree but can concede no one other than Dylan and Woody know for sure. But so much of what Woody has done is not in dispute. There is massive amounts of evidence that he had a very weird and inappropriate relationship with Dylan and he has a proven history of targeted underage girls. None of that is in dispute. He puts is own predilections in his movies. So in the best case scenario he has a thing, that he is willing to act on, for underage girls and he displayed inappropriate behavior with his underage child. The best case scenario is still really fucked up and not remotely okay. If it didn’t happen that day it was a ticking time bomb. I haven’t seen a “he didn’t do it” defender address that aspect. Which to me makes that defense of him bullshit. 

The “great artist” defense is at least more honest but just as fucked up in a different way. 

4 hours ago, merylinkid said:

A judge LITERALLY RULED IT HAPPENED.   Like if you read anything about the case, the Custody Order is OUT THERE.   A judge heard all the evidence, INCLUDING FROM WOODY ALLEN and decided it happened.   He gave Allen only supervised access which only happens if the parent is a danger to the child (not even if the parent is a danger only to the other parent).   

No he didn’t. He said "we will probably never know what occurred on August 4, 1992...[but] Mr. Allen's behavior toward Dylan was grossly inappropriate and...measures must be taken to protect her." Allen’s defenders focus on the first part and ignore the second part. 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Guest

[aradia22]

Quote

(I honestly have either hated or thought Allen's work okay but overly self-indulgent, so I just can't think of him as a great artist so much as an insufferable git who happens to be good at knowing what sells.) 

For some reason I liked Scoop (I think I just had bad taste at that age) and Annie Hall was pretty good (though that was largely Diane Keaton). Cosigning the "okay but overly self-indulgent" for everything recent though. Blue Jasmine was just okay. Midnight in Paris bordered on infuriating.

Quote

I think what it really is, is that they want a good paycheck, I am not sure either Gershon or Shawn are all that in demand, so they are trying to convince themselves they aren't selling their souls to the devil for a paycheck. 

Lili Taylor was in one of Shawn's plays recently. It got recorded for Audible. Didn't sell well and got bad word of mouth. But that's no one else's fault since he wrote it.

[Lugal]

On 1/30/2022 at 10:55 AM, Mabinogia said:

(I honestly have either hated or thought Allen's work okay but overly self-indulgent, so I just can't think of him as a great artist so much as an insufferable git who happens to be good at knowing what sells.)

That's pretty much where I am, I never thought his work was that great either, but I can see how it appeals to a certain niche but influential audience.

On 1/30/2022 at 11:38 AM, Dani said:

Shawn says that he has researched and feels that Allen didn’t molest Dylan on that day. I disagree but can concede no one other than Dylan and Woody know for sure. But so much of what Woody has done is not in dispute. There is massive amounts of evidence that he had a very weird and inappropriate relationship with Dylan and he has a proven history of targeted underage girls.

I can respect that Shawn can look at the facts of the case and come to a different conclusion (although I disagree with that conclusion), but the above mentioned facts outside the case make that conclusion questionable.

On 1/30/2022 at 11:38 AM, Dani said:

The “great artist” defense is at least more honest but just as fucked up in a different way. 

I always thought the "great artist" defense is lazy, as we can (and should) separate the art from the artist.  For example, Caravaggio and Paul Gauguin were both gifted painters but terrible human beings.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Lugal

[DearEvette]

If you feel the need to defend working with Allen, I would respect it a lot more if your defense was "Fuck it, I need a paycheck" rather than the earnest "artistic vision" defense or even more terrible "I wasn't there and have no direct knowledge of anything, but it didn't happen" take.

[Zella]

52 minutes ago, Lugal said:

For example, Caravaggio and Paul Gauguin were both gifted painters but terrible human beings.

I love Caravaggio's work so much that my profile pic comes from one of his paintings, but yeah he was not a good guy. Great painter. Terrible person. 

35 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

If you feel the need to defend working with Allen, I would respect it a lot more if your defense was "Fuck it, I need a paycheck" rather than the earnest "artistic vision" defense or even more terrible "I wasn't there and have no direct knowledge of anything, but it didn't happen" take.

Yes the bullshit excuses they come up with are really insulting and ridiculous.

Like a lot of you, the appeal of Woody Allen's movies escapes me. Admittedly, I never watched any of the ones he did in his prime--they don't interest me even beyond the fact he's a disgusting creep--but the handful I've watched were okay but certainly not anything that I considered a masterpiece. It's not going to hurt my feelings never watch one of his movies. I don't particularly care for Polanski's work as a whole either, though I will say that I did find The Pianist profoundly moving. I don't have a problem with separating him from that movie. But I also don't think anyone can really provide a viable defense for working with either of them now. 

[aradia22]

I've though about watching Rosemary's Baby because I've never seen Mia Farrow in anything. I've also considered watching Chinatown to see a Faye Dunaway (I know she's also problematic) performance. But aside from having other things to watch, from what I know of the plots, they feel like they could be misogynistic and gross to sit through. I do watch all of these movies only when they're on streaming so the residuals are pennies. 

[RealHousewife]

Honestly, I feel like so much of Hollywood is completely full of shit. It went from defending a child rapist and signing a petition for his release (Roman Polanski) to going after men for much less. I don't know if we truly know any of their actual thoughts. A lot of them seem to just give in to pressure. Pressure to be super cool and forgiving of the most horrific acts or pressure to be super woke and holding people accountable for more minor offenses. 

[Zella]

In light of our conversation, I found this article interesting.

https://www.thewrap.com/woody-allen-rifkins-festival-box-office/

Quote

Woody Allen has posted the lowest box office opening weekend of his career with his 49th film, “Rifkin’s Festival,” grossing just $24,000 on Friday and Saturday from 26 theaters, according to box office sources.

Most of the theaters screening the film are owned by Landmark Theaters, whose flagship Los Angeles location posted the highest single theater total for the film with $2,300. Other theaters outside of Landmark’s circuit screening the film include the Quad Theatre in New York City, where the film grossed $1,600 over two days.

By comparison, Allen’s previous film “Wonder Wheel” earned approximately $125,000 from five screens on its 3-day opening weekend in 2017, 

 

[andromeda331]

9 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I really hate when artists defend their support over each other with the idea that being a "great artist" is more important than being even the lowest level of decent human. It really should be the other way around. Not harming others should be more important in the people you want to support than in them making good movies (I honestly have either hated or thought Allen's work okay but overly self-indulgent, so I just can't think of him as a great artist so much as an insufferable git who happens to be good at knowing what sells.) I might be biased, but I just don't think Allen's work is so great, or so important that it trumps abusing a child who trusted him. 

I think what it really is, is that they want a good paycheck, I am not sure either Gershon or Shawn are all that in demand, so they are trying to convince themselves they aren't selling their souls to the devil for a paycheck. 

So do I. I think the bar for a "great artist" should be higher than a molester or rapist. That's not too much to ask.   

[Blergh]

6 hours ago, Lugal said:

 

I always thought the "great artist" defense is lazy, as we can (and should) separate the art from the artist.  For example, Caravaggio and Paul Gauguin were both gifted painters but terrible human beings.

Yeah, but they're both now dead so NO danger of even minutely contributing to their fortunes should one patronize them! 

[Hiyo]

Quote

pressure to be super woke

Being woke isn't a bad thing. It's how you got the right to vote and how I got the right to marry another man, among other things.

As for Woody Allen, I still enjoy some of his movies, even if most were released before the mid-1990s. The only recent movie of his I would recommend for people is Vicky Cristina Barcelona, mainly because he isn't in it and the awesome food and location porn (Barcelona and Oviedo).

[Ms Blue Jay]

I genuinely like WA's films.  That being said, I believe Dylan completely and I think it's completely inappropriate and terrible what he did with Soon-Yi!

I like a lot of his films - not all - and I do love VCB, but I think my favourite is Blue Jasmine.  Cate Blanchett is incredible in it, and WA is not in that one either.  I liked Cafe Society too. 

His last two movies have been kind of mediocre, but I still kind of enjoyed them.  At least, I am not giving him any money.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[possibilities]

53 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

Being woke isn't a bad thing. It's how you got the right to vote and how I got the right to marry another man, among other things.

YES!!!!

[RealHousewife]

Being woke is a wonderful thing when it's not performative. 

[Hiyo]

As is true with many other things.

[Guest]

17 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Being woke is a wonderful thing when it's not performative. 

Personally I really don’t care all that much if it’s performative or not. If studios, actors, producers or directors are only improving in “woke” areas because they know it looks better that’s just fine with me. If we waited for change to only happen when people in power genuinely believed it was the right thing we’d still be waiting on most things to improve. Performative or not it changes the information out there resulting in future generations where it’s not simply performative. 

Edited February 1, 2022 by Guest

[GaT]

18 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Being woke isn't a bad thing. It's how you got the right to vote and how I got the right to marry another man, among other things.

Absolutely. But I have a problem when people take being woke into SJW territory. You can't be up in arms over every single thing.