Lady Whistledown: Friend or Foe

[peachmangosteen]

4 hours ago, ouinason said:

or they could be setting her up for a fall, and some redemption before her HEA (if she even gets one).  

They could but I just don't think they are. 

I actually like Lady W as a ruthless asshole getting high off ruining people's lives lol. I think that's pretty much how she came off in the series but, again, I don't think that was what the writers intended. 

[cardigirl]

I binged this series this past weekend, as most people here did.  It's not my usual fare, as I don't read romance novels, so I had not heard of these characters before. But a coworker recommended it, and it was clever enough to keep me watching.  Beautifully filmed, and interesting enough that I just kept watching, even though it's not trying for accuracy in costuming or other things much. It reminded me a bit of Outlander, another show that is beautifully filmed and acted but is not my usual fare.

All this is to say that I had no idea who was who and where the storyline was going to take me, and I have to say that I ended up hating Penelope for what she did to poor Marina. When the reveal came, I was just aghast that she could lie to her best friend, Eloise, and choose to expose her own family to scandal in such a way.  I get that she felt desperate, but that was such an ultimate betrayal of another woman I now cannot stand her.  

I feel like we are meant to root for her, because she is not the super popular/traditionally attractive young woman, nor even the quirky funny young woman that her supposed best friend is, but to reveal her as Lady Whistledown, who chose to expose her family to such scorn and ruin, to prevent the young man she herself desires, from marrying someone he thought he loved, well, dang it.  Not fair.  She did have other means. She chose not to use them. She went for maximum kill. 

Having read through this thread, it seems that the writers have chosen to change her character up a bit from the books, so it will remain to be seen if they have something more in store for her in another season, if she will learn a costly lesson from this or no.  Colin is indeed out of her reach and Marina's too, for the time being.  But at the moment, I'm not a fan of Penelope Featherington.

[shapeshifter]

On 1/2/2021 at 5:26 PM, cardigirl said:

Having read through this thread, it seems that the writers have chosen to change her character up a bit from the books, so it will remain to be seen if they have something more in store for her in another season, if she will learn a costly lesson from this or no.  Colin is indeed out of her reach and Marina's too, for the time being.  But at the moment, I'm not a fan of Penelope Featherington.

Penelope is just 17, so, just as there are current trends IRL to not convict juveniles to life in prison, I think there is room for Pen to learn from experience. Her family is now in a much more precarious situation. It would be ironic if she found herself engaged to marry an older, unattractive man of wealth when Colin returns. 

[Roseanna]

17 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Penelope is just 17

A 17 year old girl is alone in the carriage in the middle of the night? Makes a contract with the printing house (is it even a legal)? Where did she get a money to pay the printing from (do we actually see people to pay the leaflet)?

Most of all, her writing is that of an old or at least middle-aged woman who is disappointed with her own life and therefore wants to draw other people down.

[peachmangosteen]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

A 17 year old girl is alone in the carriage in the middle of the night? Makes a contract with the printing house (is it even a legal)? Where did she get a money to pay the printing from (do we actually see people to pay the leaflet)?

Spoiler

How do they explain how Pen is able to do all this in the books? 

 

[gutbuster]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

A 17 year old girl is alone in the carriage in the middle of the night? Makes a contract with the printing house (is it even a legal)? Where did she get a money to pay the printing from (do we actually see people to pay the leaflet)?

 

I remember seeing a woman with a basket give the paperboy something, I think its fair to assume it was a coin, in exchange for the pamphlet, so she is collecting funds from it. I wonder if she's got that one kid collecting money for subscriptions, too. 

I imagine that Pen had pin money saved to get started up in the first place. I don't know how much she would have needed to start an enterprise like this though. 

Edited January 4, 2021 by gutbuster

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

18 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Penelope is just 17

A 17 year old girl is alone in the carriage in the middle of the night? Makes a contract with the printing house (is it even a legal)? Where did she get a money to pay the printing from (do we actually see people to pay the leaflet)?

Most of all, her writing is that of an old or at least middle-aged woman who is disappointed with her own life and therefore wants to draw other people down.

I totally agree, @Roseanna, that none of this makes sense. And it makes it nearly impossible to excuse Penelope's behavior as that of a teen. 
I wonder if this will get resolved in a second season. 

I had wondered if Lady Danbury was Lady Whistledown, and was glad she not only wasn't, but was probably the most heroic character of the season
--especially because she reminds me of my recently passed mother.

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

A 17 year old girl is alone in the carriage in the middle of the night? Makes a contract with the printing house (is it even a legal)? Where did she get a money to pay the printing from (do we actually see people to pay the leaflet)?

Yeah, it's super dumb they way it's presented in the show.  A 17 year old girl would not have been able to commandeer her family carriage in the middle of the evening, especially not without being detected by someone in her own household.  Involving one loyal servant in a plan might work.  Involving multiple had almost no chance of continued secrecy. 

As far as the contract goes, I don't know the exact answer for 19th Century UK.  But even in this country, contracting with a minor, historically, has been "voidable" but not "void."  Essentially, that meant that an underage person could execute a contract, but a the minor or their guardian could void the contract until at least the age a majority.   However, in this case, even without a formal contract, if the publisher wanted her to keep writing they would pay her because if they did not she would have no reason to bring another column. 

21 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

How do they explain how Pen is able to do all this in the books? 

I will take this response to the Book thread.

[UnoAgain]

Yeah count me in as part of the... How exactly does all this work...  Side of things cuz I don't understand how she's pulling off what would be needed to do what she's doing unless she's "A" from PLL....  And if it is Like that I still say Madame D is helping her 

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

A 17 year old girl is alone in the carriage in the middle of the night? Makes a contract with the printing house (is it even a legal)? Where did she get a money to pay the printing from (do we actually see people to pay the leaflet)?

Most of all, her writing is that of an old or at least middle-aged woman who is disappointed with her own life and therefore wants to draw other people down.

I mean, we saw that she was able to make it over to the Bridgertons to have her cry with Eloise in the middle of the night and I'm guessing no one thought to themselves "No way could she make her way to Eloise on her own as a 17-year-old girl!"

I can buy that she has one or two trusted servants in her household who can arrange the trips for her, and her family pays so little attention to her that they either don't notice her comings or goings or that she can come up with various fig-leaf excuses for sneaking out every week or two. 

I can buy that she got an adult to pose as Lady Whistledown for the purpose of making deals with the printers.

I think in an early episode, the leaflet is given away for free, and in another there seems to be an exchange. There was reference to her making a lot of money and presumably the printer is in it for the money, so I have to imagine at some point she charges for it.

I kind of wish it were possible now that the secret is out to get a version of  the show with the Pen actress reading all of Lady W's writings in her own voice.

[RachelKM]

3 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I mean, we saw that she was able to make it over to the Bridgertons to have her cry with Eloise in the middle of the night and I'm guessing no one thought to themselves "No way could she make her way to Eloise on her own as a 17-year-old girl!"

They live across the square from one another.  She didn't have to do more than sneak out of her house.  It still wouldn't be proper.  But visiting her across the way best friend is not too risky or out there.  

[bijoux]

2 hours ago, UnoAgain said:

Yeah count me in as part of the... How exactly does all this work...  Side of things cuz I don't understand how she's pulling off what would be needed to do what she's doing unless she's "A" from PLL....  And if it is Like that I still say Madame D is helping her 

Well, Penelope isn't the only one to suffer those dresses. Madame Delacroix has to make them. 

[bubble sparkly]

Speaking of Madame D, given her talk with Eloise are we supposed to think that she somehow knows that Pen is Lady W and was keeping the secret?  Or did she just think Eloise was bonkers but played along without understanding what was going on since she was romancing the 2nd B brother?

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Speaking of Madame D, given her talk with Eloise are we supposed to think that she somehow knows that Pen is Lady W and was keeping the secret?  Or did she just think Eloise was bonkers but played along without understanding what was going on since she was romancing the 2nd B brother?

Could be both. After reading the most recent posts here, it sounds like the most logical explanation is that a lot of the trades women and maids are assisting Penelope, perhaps in part for pin money, and in part to stick it to the most ungrateful of the wealthy ladies——maybe sometimes getting a little drunk/giddy with power in the process. 

Edited January 5, 2021 by shapeshifter

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Speaking of Madame D, given her talk with Eloise are we supposed to think that she somehow knows that Pen is Lady W and was keeping the secret?  Or did she just think Eloise was bonkers but played along without understanding what was going on since she was romancing the 2nd B brother?

Or a third option: she has no idea who Lady W is but just assumed that Lady W can take care of herself. While one reaction to an accusation of being Lady W and thus in danger would be to straight-up deny it, another would be "I don't care and that's Lady W's business."

[bijoux]

Plus, I think that was her way of taking a piss at a ton miss. I don't think she was anything near to malicious, but that she was amused by Eloise's big reveal and let her thibk she was right. 

Plus, I think that was her way of taking a piss at a ton miss. I don't think she was anything near to malicious, but that she was amused by Eloise's big reveal and let her think she was right. 

[quarks]

Belated thought: I'm wondering how much Penelope's observations of her parents' unhappy, dishonest marriage affected her decision to tell everyone about Marina's pregnancy?

[magdalene]

I am completely confused - how can this young and sheltered girl manage the logistics of being Lady W?

Spoiler

 

Do I still have to spoiler tag this now?

Thanks!  I don't know how to remove the actual tag.

Edited January 6, 2021 by magdalene

[Door County Cherry]

7 minutes ago, magdalene said:

I am completely confused - how can this young and sheltered girl manage the logistics of being 

  Hide contents

Lady W?   And the sophisticated voice over is how she envisions herself?

Do I still have to spoiler tag this now?

Not unless you're talking about her identity in the ep threads for 1-7.

Or give details about how this works from the books.

[EyewatchTV211]

9 minutes ago, magdalene said:

I am completely confused - how can this young and sheltered girl manage the logistics of being 

  Reveal spoiler

Lady W?   And the sophisticated voice over is how she envisions herself?

Do I still have to spoiler tag this now?

The show hasn't explained how they envision her doing it, but if you go in the book vs. series thread, I and RachelKM (more recently) describe how they explain it in the books. 

[magdalene]

2 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

Not unless you're talking about her identity in the ep threads for 1-7.

Or give details about how this works from the books.

I just finished the show and haven't read the books. I was completely shocked at that end reveal.

[shapeshifter]

18 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

26 minutes ago, magdalene said:

I am completely confused - how can this young and sheltered girl manage the logistics of being 

  Reveal spoiler

Lady W?   And the sophisticated voice over is how she envisions herself?

Do I still have to spoiler tag this now?

Not unless you're talking about her identity in the ep threads for 1-7.

Or give details about how this works from the books.

Thanks for the clarity on spoilers, @Door County Cherry. 
So, regarding

Quote

I am completely confused - how can this young and sheltered girl manage the logistics of being Lady W?   And the sophisticated voice over is how she envisions herself?

I have not read the books, but I've watched a *lot* of Law & Order, and I am sure Lennie Briscoe would say: She's got to be working with somebody else.

Edited January 6, 2021 by shapeshifter

[magdalene]

8 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

have not read the books, but I've watched a *lot* of Law & Order, and I am sure Lennie Briscoe would say: She's got to be working with somebody else.

Yes! I wonder who her accomplice could be?

[EyewatchTV211]

22 hours ago, magdalene said:

Yes! I wonder who her accomplice could be?

Not sure if you want to be spoiled at all from the books, but there is talk of how she did it in the books in our books vs. series thread. 

[Roseanna]

On 1/5/2021 at 7:44 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I can buy that she has one or two trusted servants in her household who can arrange the trips for her

Why on earth would they do such a thing when she in the beginning had no money to bribe them (her mother paid everything she bought) and. Before all, the risk was too high: if they were revealed, they would be fired without recommendations.

On 1/5/2021 at 7:44 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I can buy that she got an adult to pose as Lady Whistledown for the purpose of making deals with the printers.

Who?

[Roseanna]

Continueing: if Pen had a servant or somebody else who helped her, she would simply have given her/him her manuscript and had had no need to bring it herself to the printing house in the middle of the night. Indeed, the latter would be foolish, because then the driver would have known or guessed her secret also. The more people knew it, the more likely that somebody would betray her in order get a reward that the Queen surely would have paid (instead of fearing to be revealed and fired, if he/she were a servant).

[shapeshifter]

@roseha, possibly Pen is working for someone else of greater means. I thought Lady Danbury or even the Queen. But maybe the artist guy or the dressmaker. 

[peachmangosteen]

But if Pen was having someone else take the column to the printers then why were we shown her in the carriage going to the printers? 

52 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

@roseha, possibly Pen is working for someone else of greater means. I thought Lady Danbury or even the Queen. But maybe the artist guy or the dressmaker. 

I have been thinking they might go this route to rid Pen of some of the blame.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

On the "Friend or Foe" question, I think we're supposed to come away with recognizing that both Marina and Penelope were in a situation where they choices were limited and both made some bad choices. In short, I don't think we're supposed to see either Marina OR Penelope as "villains" - we're supposed to have sympathy for them while also recognizing that they both made some pretty questionable decisions.  

It's one thing I appreciate about the romance genre - they allow women to make bad choices, to sometimes seem "unlikeable," but also to say that even women who occasionally do the wrong thing deserve happy endings.

Marina's situation was bad - unwed and pregnant, with no prospects was definitely a bad situation for the era - but also, she was not without her own agency. She got into the situation she was in because of her own bad choices and throughout the series, we see her choosing to believe that she was entitled to get everything she wanted in her own way - child, marriage to someone she could love, a comfortable situation.  She was definitely trying to deceive Colin and as he himself said, if she had actually told him, he would probably still gone for it. Now, it's understandable why she didn't - the risk was too high - but that doesn't mean she still wasn't trying to be deceitful to him.  

Penelope was being guided both by wanting Marina to be happy - after all, she's the one who discovered that her mother forged the letter to Marina - and by her crush on Colin. To some extent, I wish that they hadn't introduced her crush on Colin as a factor, because at the end of the day, her actions were completely understandable if it were her just protecting a friend. But nevertheless, she did betray both her friend and her family, but she had also run out of options to stop a marriage that would have been built on a foundation of deception. 

I don't think any of these characters are despicable - I think that they are human. But I am a bit surprised that people are casting Pen as a "villain." IMO, she's not, she's a character who was in a no-win situation who made a bad choice. That's true of Marina, as well, but neither are villains. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 1/9/2021 at 2:33 AM, Roseanna said:

Why on earth would they do such a thing when she in the beginning had no money to bribe them (her mother paid everything she bought) and. Before all, the risk was too high: if they were revealed, they would be fired without recommendations.

Who?

Whoever is helping Pen could be doing so for a number of reasons:

1. Money or the promise of money dating back to when she was first starting

2. Wanting to stick it to the Man/the snooty upper class

3. Love of/interest in gossip

4. Thrill of being on the inside/keeping a secret

That said, I don't know if being found out as a Whistledown accomplice would necessarily mean getting fired. Or if the money that would come from it would be worth the risk. But even assuming that it's not rationally worth the risk, real people still take risks all the time.

On 1/9/2021 at 6:12 AM, Roseanna said:

Continueing: if Pen had a servant or somebody else who helped her, she would simply have given her/him her manuscript and had had no need to bring it herself to the printing house in the middle of the night. Indeed, the latter would be foolish, because then the driver would have known or guessed her secret also. The more people knew it, the more likely that somebody would betray her in order get a reward that the Queen surely would have paid (instead of fearing to be revealed and fired, if he/she were a servant).

Pen could have had to sub for whoever she normally uses to deliver the copy the time we saw in episode 8, or she may rely on proxies only for some tasks and not others. She may enjoy working with the publisher directly and/or feel like she has to be present to do any last-minute adjustmets and/or want to collect her money herself.

She presumably needed to tell the person driving the carriage at a minimum that they were going to the printers and to have him stay there until she has conducted her business. There is not really a plausible innocent explanation she could have given why a 17-year-old girl would need to go out in the middle of the night to hang out at a publisher's.  

It is way easier for me to imagine that she works with one or more trusted people than it is that she has had this enterprise going for months (minimum) and managed to dupe literally everyone when she took the manuscripts to the printer, got gossip items, etc.

[Umbelina]

I did read the answer in the book thread as to how Pen did it, so I won't comment on that.

I will comment on the way they dressed her though, and I don't just mean the atrocious colors and horrid bright yellows.

Her dresses are cut differently than the others.  They have this semi-scoop rather high neck, while others have the deep square necks, except for her mother with the exaggerated deep cut sweetheart neckline.  They also ALL cut Pen right across her boobs, not under the boobs like all the other women on the show.  Since each dress is being custom made, I'm not buying that.

I'm guessing if and when they "glam her up" the first thing they do will be to show off those boobs and give her decently cut, and flattering dresses to wear.  1800s or 2021?  There will always, and have always, been men attracted to big boobs, so they had to keep those hidden.  

Those full skirts from the proper cut line down hide a myriad of issues, so they had to make her look even more undesirable with the terrible fit.  

I didn't and do not dislike Pen.  I have a different take on why she's writing, and I haven't read the books, so I could be WAY off.  She just doesn't "fit" well into any of the expected or available molds open to her.  She has wit and talent as a writer, and keen observation skills of what is really going on around her.  (skipping the parts I now know from that book thread spoiler) but continuing on with my take on this.  I think she enjoys being the hottest thing in town, enjoys being good at it, probably makes some money from it too.  She's created her own mold, and she fits inside that one perfectly.  Even the Queen reads every word she writes!

I adored Marina at first, and felt for her all along, but I did dislike her for conning Colin, and for turning her back on the person who had been kind and helpful to her all along, even scoffing when Pen was begging her to not do that to her friend.  I don't blame her for getting pregnant, I doubt she expected what was happening between her and George, and was probably as innocent as all the rest of them about sex and babies.  However, setting out to deceive a nice, innocent boy into a lifetime commitment (no divorce) was truly horrible.  Doing it to your best friends dear friend, someone she loved both as a friend and romantically?  Incredibly horrible.  Letting that friend be reduced to begging, and mocking/ignoring that?  Yeah, slipped quickly into "fuck you" there.

I think Pen tried.  She told Colin Marina didn't love him, because she still loved someone else.  (no luck)  She begged Marina to choose another, and discovered the forgery.  (no luck)  She needed the reveal to be public, and undeniable since telling Colin, or even Eloise so she would tell Colin might not work, and she was out of time, since she discovered the elopement plan.  So?  She published.  She cried like a baby after she did, with obvious remorse, but she did what it took to spare Colin from the con.

As far as it ruining her family as well?  Love will do that to you, but it really didn't matter.  They would be ruined in a day or two anyway, when their father was killed, and all the money gone.  Tea parties with the Queen would be out anyway, destitute are not invited.

In a couple of places this reminded me of Vanity Fair.  The opera singer story, and what happens to a "good" family when all the money is gone.  So I could be wrong, but I pictured Pen, her mom, and her sisters in the same position as the Sedley's.  Living in a hovel, growing what vegetables they could, no more colorful dresses.

 

[bijoux]

27 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

In a couple of places this reminded me of Vanity Fair.  The opera singer story, and what happens to a "good" family when all the money is gone.  So I could be wrong, but I pictured Pen, her mom, and her sisters in the same position as the Sedley's.  Living in a hovel, growing what vegetables they could, no more colorful dresses.

 

I doubt they will drop so far, but I do imagine Portia being really pro-active about bettering their chances next season. The show will probably jump ahead about a year, just like in the book, because there's not really much for her to do during mourning without appearing like a monster. Portia wants social standing, not just money, and she can hardly throw herself or one of her daughters at someone during this period without everyone looking down on her even more than they already do. Phillip should expect a lot of correspondence from her, I suppose, and I imagine the yet unknown heir will be called upon as well.

[Sakura12]

So was Pen's entire personality a lie? She presented herself as a naive, bookish young woman who dreamed of the society life. But was really spying on and publicly humiliating all the ladies of the ton. And was lot more worldly then she let on. I was wrong then, she's not Gossip Girl, she's A from PLL.

The only way I can buy this is if she has help, maybe the widowed lady that Eloise thought that Lady W was or the working woman and maids. 

[ouinason]

I want to point something out that I think might have gotten slightly lost in the shuffle.  Lady W's newsletter is at least 4 or more pages wrong, with different stuff in it.  It is not a hit piece directed at a single individual.  There is lots of other stuff in there besides the bits that we hear that are specific to this story.  Pen is not picking on any single person or family in her work, she's not targeting people.  She writes stories and someone blocks and prints them up in an order that seems like it would be eye catching.  

[Chicago Redshirt]

13 hours ago, ouinason said:

I want to point something out that I think might have gotten slightly lost in the shuffle.  Lady W's newsletter is at least 4 or more pages wrong, with different stuff in it.  It is not a hit piece directed at a single individual.  There is lots of other stuff in there besides the bits that we hear that are specific to this story.  Pen is not picking on any single person or family in her work, she's not targeting people.  She writes stories and someone blocks and prints them up in an order that seems like it would be eye catching.  

Although there were certainly other things in the edition of LW where she blew up Marina's spot, that seems irrelevant. 

The scandal about Marina was almost certainly the cover story of that edition.

Even if it wasn't, it still was going to get read wherever it was. And it was obviously, predictably going to still have the effect that it did,. Pen/LW knew all this when she went with it. I don't see how it matters that she also printed items that were more innocuous along with the bombshell, or that she is an equal-opportunity bombshell-thrower who also prints bombshells pertaining to other people with disregard for how it will affect them. Which I don't even know if we can say whether or not that is true because the show generally only relates LW's items as to the Bridgertons, the Featheringtons, families that Pen has a personal connection to and vested interests in.

[ouinason]

I am not getting into the rights and wrongs of Marina's story, only pointing out that she is not specifically or exceptionally picking on any specific person or family.  Scandal rags were quite common back then.  It wasn't weird or interesting that Lady W existed, it was only different that she didn't do badly disguised blind items and just straight out named people.  Everyone always knew who the people being talked about were, no matter if they did the whole "a certain Lady J" thing, Whistledown just dispensed with the cutesy bullshit.

[BlackberryJam]

53 minutes ago, ouinason said:

I am not getting into the rights and wrongs of Marina's story, only pointing out that she is not specifically or exceptionally picking on any specific person or family.  Scandal rags were quite common back then.  It wasn't weird or interesting that Lady W existed, it was only different that she didn't do badly disguised blind items and just straight out named people.  Everyone always knew who the people being talked about were, no matter if they did the whole "a certain Lady J" thing, Whistledown just dispensed with the cutesy bullshit.

Yes, that's part of episode 1, when everyone is so excited by Whistledown. It's what makes Whistledown the most popular of the scandal sheets, but not the only scandal sheet. 

[Callietwo]

On 1/9/2021 at 8:56 AM, shapeshifter said:

@roseha, possibly Pen is working for someone else of greater means. I thought Lady Danbury or even the Queen. But maybe the artist guy or the dressmaker. 

This would also make her running to Eloise to sob in her arms make more sense. 

Once she's passed the info on, she couldn't take it back as it was at that point, out of her hands and perhaps she had major doubts and regrets and wondering what she had done. 

I could buy it if they decide to go with the fact that she did it rashly and in a fit of schoolgirl jealousy only to realize how what she'd done and that she went to far.

[peachmangosteen]

To me, her working for someone doesn't mesh with how they played the reveal by showing her, by herself, in the carriage with her self-satisfied smile. But I could possibly see them changing things and having her working for someone if they want to try to absolve her of the shit she caused.

[bijoux]

I don't want them to do stuff simply to absolve her. Since they went in this direction, I've been hoping they would use it as an opportunity to let her character grow and grow up. This doesn't need to be swept under the rug, but be part of forming Penelope's character as she becomes a grown woman. She needs to reasses her actions and their consequences, think long and hard if this is how she wants to use her voice and public influence. What she doesn't need is to be shown as a victim of someone else's manipulation. 

[Umbelina]

10 hours ago, bijoux said:

I don't want them to do stuff simply to absolve her. Since they went in this direction, I've been hoping they would use it as an opportunity to let her character grow and grow up. This doesn't need to be swept under the rug, but be part of forming Penelope's character as she becomes a grown woman. She needs to reasses her actions and their consequences, think long and hard if this is how she wants to use her voice and public influence. What she doesn't need is to be shown as a victim of someone else's manipulation. 

I have to be careful here, since I've now read all the books, and just force myself into seeing it exactly as I did (and posted in this thread earlier) before reading.

I don't see Penelope needing to be absolved from anything.  She tried SEVERAL other ways to warn him, her friend, someone she loved, that he was being used and throwing his life away on lies from a scheming and desperate woman.  HE WOULD NOT LISTEN.

Then she found out about the elopement and knew that the one way he would have to listen is if everyone knew.  She made that choice to save her friend, which, it did.  At that point, he could have still married her, but chose not to, telling her that he would have if she had just been honest with him.

We see Pen extremely distraught after outing all of this publicly, it was obviously difficult for her to make that choice.

(the rest would all be book stuff, so head to that thread if anyone likes spoilers)

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I come back to thinking that both Penelope and Marina basically only had bad choices here, because of their circumstances, so it's hard for me to castigate either of them. Marina's situation was so difficult because she should not be "ruined" because she was pregnant. But on the other hand, she really was trying to trick Colin because she wanted everything her way. 

Penelope's actions can be justified by the fact that Marina (and Lady Featherington) were being deceptive here - and Penelope did try to do to stop the marriage before using Lady Whistledown.  But even so, there are consequences for Penelope's actions, too. She did put both Marina and her family in jeopardy, and at some point, when others find out, she'll likely experience those consequences.

I don't see her (or Marina) as the bad guy, but someone who had limited options. 

[companionenvy]

If Pen thought there was any chance she was going to have to invoke the nuclear option and out Marina, she should have been a lot more direct with Colin than she was. I also fail to believe that someone who is capable of driving around making deliveries of her scandal-sheet under her parents' nose would have found it utterly impossible to get a message to her best friend's brother, who lived across the street, in a timely manner.

But let's leave that aside. I can accept the betrayal of Marina, even with all its consequences and potential consequences, as within the bounds of forgivable for a seventeen year old who perhaps thought she was out of options. The problem for me is that she's being a total snake to Eloise, and trying to ruin people who don't deserve it, if her treatment of Daphne is any indication. LW came close to sinking Daphne's social prospects, something Pen had no reason to do. That takes us from Penelope making a mistake under great emotional pressure, to Penelope being a globally catty and deceitful person, who doesn't care about the potential effects of her actions on others.

Also, it is a minor point, but I want to push back on the idea that Colin's life would have been ruined, especially in the context of a society where people were forced into bad marriages--or simply made impulsive or ambitious marriages with near-strangers, with predictably iffy results--all the time. Colin was going to suffer a terrible betrayal, and then be left with an attractive, grateful woman who presumably intended to be a good wife to him going forward. At worst, if he had been totally unable to forgive, he would have had the option of settling money on Marina and having a name-only marriage while he devoted himself to other pursuits. Not what anyone might want for him, but not the kind of horror that would warrant publicly destroying Marina and threatening her own family's already precarious position.

Edited February 7, 2021 by companionenvy

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I don't know that I think Colin's life would have been "ruined." Probably it would not have been. He's an attractive, witty, white man in Regency England, so yes, he'd probably be fine. But that still doesn't mean that Marina was right to try to trick him into marriage. Again, Marina had the option of telling Colin the truth about her situation, and she didn't do so. Obviously, it's understandable why she didn't - all she had were pretty bad options - but that doesn't mean her actions can be morally justified. 

At the end of the day, I think that Pen's life as Lady Whistledown got away from her - I don't think she has intended to hurt or deceive anyone but the popularity of the scandal sheet became too big for her to truly handle.  Again, bad options. But I think neither Pen nor Marina are bad people - they are young, impulsive, smart girls whose lives were suddenly out of their control. And so they make wrong, impulsive choices because that's what people do at that age. 

[GaT]

I haven't read any of the comments in this thread because I still have two episodes to go & I don't want to be spoiled. I just wanted to put my guess for who Lady Whistledown is. I'm going to put it in spoiler tag just in case I'm right, So, without any actual knowledge & just guessing, I think Lady Whistledown is.....

Spoiler

Modiste's Madame Delacroix. I think it's her because I'm sure all the ladies gossip their heads off while they're in her shop & don't even think about her while she's pinning them into things. Plus, she would know that Marina was pregnant as soon as she started fitting her for her dress, & she would be able to tell she was a few months along. Marina threatened her about faking being French, & then right after that everyone found out she was pregnant. I think Madame Delacroix was not only getting her back, she was taking her out so that even if she said something about her not being French, nobody would believe her. 

 

[lcarolynl]

I just finished the season and I am gobsmacked at Lady W's reveal! I love that they had me fruitlessly guessing and I never figured it out!

Thinking about it, I love that P has decided to take her destiny into her own hands and play the cards she was dealt. If she had been as sweet and docile as we all thought she was, her prospects for a good marriage were ... not good. How could she ever hope to earn money to support her own desires? She couldn't get a good paying job while fitting into the strict social norms of her day.
She had to come up with something truly different and that in and of itself would be scandalous. So if she if she's to be scandalous, go big!!

Yes there is collateral damage along the way but how much damage was there really? So Daphne isn't the most desirable woman of the season? Compare that to P's prospects. No matter what, Daphne is still a Bridgerton and will come out with money and status. Two things P will fight and struggle to achieve, much less maintain.

Marina didn't get to trick Colin into marriage with a dreadful lie? Oh gee, that's too bad! Marina made out all right, she's marrying a good man and isn't that what she wanted with Colin? Quick substitution of marrying one good and decent man for another good and decent man, but with the truth between them.

Lady Whistledown never lied nor did she attack anyone with anything but the truth. The truth was hard to bear (bare?) but at least it was the truth. 

I don't know what else P was to do to make her own money and determine her own destiny. 

Now.... who's the new Lord of Featherington???

[companionenvy]

On 2/15/2021 at 1:30 PM, lcarolynl said:

So Daphne isn't the most desirable woman of the season? Compare that to P's prospects. No matter what, Daphne is still a Bridgerton and will come out with money and status. Two things P will fight and struggle to achieve, much less maintain.

Marina didn't get to trick Colin into marriage with a dreadful lie? Oh gee, that's too bad! Marina made out all right, she's marrying a good man and isn't that what she wanted with Colin? Quick substitution of marrying one good and decent man for another good and decent man, but with the truth between them.

Daphne came pretty close to being forced into marriage with a brute, and Marina could have died in her attempts to induce an abortion.

I'll grant you that it didn't honestly make a ton of sense that Anthony was pushing Daphne to marry Berbrook because she didn't have any other suitors at the ripe old age of 18 or 19, but even if the stakes would realistically have been pretty low, what Penelope did to Daphne is still shitty. That Penelope might be rightly frustrated about her own situation doesn't justify lashing out at others; that's like saying that it is totally fine to steal from people as long as they have more money than you do.

As for Marina, I don't think Pen was obliged to keep the secret. But that would justify telling Colin, not exposing Marina to the entire ton. The fact that things did, rather improbably, work out more or less ok for Marina doesn't mitigate what Pen did.

[Umbelina]

19 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

what Penelope did to Daphne is still shitty. That Penelope might be rightly frustrated about her own situation doesn't justify lashing out at others; that's like saying that it is totally fine to steal from people as long as they have more money than you do.

Pen didn't do anything but report the truth.  I didn't see any venom in it, everyone already knew anyway.  Had she lied, her credibility would have been questioned, her "stock" fall as she was not reliable, AND her identity in jeapardy, as people would ask why Lady Whistledown was covering for Daphne.

19 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

On 2/15/2021 at 10:30 AM, lcarolynl said:

 

 

Read more  

 

Sorry, I can't edit the above out, try as I might.

20 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

As for Marina, I don't think Pen was obliged to keep the secret. But that would justify telling Colin, not exposing Marina to the entire ton. The fact that things did, rather improbably, work out more or less ok for Marina doesn't mitigate what Pen did.

Again, they were going to ELOPE in the morning.  She tried several ways to gently tell Colin, had she just blurted it out, it's doubtful he would have believed her.  Making sure EVERYONE knew was an unpleasant choice that obviously upset her, but it was the only way to get through to Colin, when it wasn't from Pen, but from Lady Whistledown, and where everyone would know the truth, including his family.

[companionenvy]

 

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Pen didn't do anything but report the truth.  I didn't see any venom in it, everyone already knew anyway.  Had she lied, her credibility would have been questioned, her "stock" fall as she was not reliable, AND her identity in jeapardy, as people would ask why Lady Whistledown was covering for Daphne.

The thing is, there wasn't actually any real news about Daphne to report, which means it is hard for me to see how LW's credibility would have suffered by not piling on with snark. It isn't like she would have been allowing herself to get scooped by another scandal sheet; as long as she kept writing entertaining stuff, I don't find it credible that the fact that she didn't happen to comment on non-news involving Daphne would have been enough to sink her. On the other hand, the fact that it was hurtful to Daphne is evident; there's a difference between there being a general sense that your star is fallen and having your social failure proclaimed in the press.

I also don't think that people not aware of themselves as characters in a TV show would notice that LW didn't publish anything about Daphne and conclude that Penelope was a likely suspect. Only if she were sitting on a much bigger scoop than "Daphne's kind of a loser now, right?" would it plausibly have even occurred to anyone that LW might be protecting Daphne, specifically, and I still don't think Pen would have been a leading suspect.

In any case, protecting Pen's identity and ensuring the success of LW are not inherently worthy goals, and should not be justifications for bad behavior. If you say something nasty about something else because doing so is pragmatically useful to you, the fact that your actions may have a discernible motive does not mean that what you're doing isn't selfish and cruel.

15 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Again, they were going to ELOPE in the morning.  She tried several ways to gently tell Colin, had she just blurted it out, it's doubtful he would have believed her.  Making sure EVERYONE knew was an unpleasant choice that obviously upset her, but it was the only way to get through to Colin, when it wasn't from Pen, but from Lady Whistledown, and where everyone would know the truth, including his family.

It just seems really convenient that super-resourceful Penelope has simply no alternative but totally outing Marina publicly, where outing Marina publicly corresponds perfectly to her own romantic desires.

Penelope and Colin had been friends for years. Why wouldn't he have believed her at least enough to not elope in the morning? That would be an outrageous, specific, and dangerous lie for Penelope to tell; Colin would have had to be a moron not to take it seriously, especially when he thought back and realized Marina had turned on the charm suddenly, tried to get him to sleep with her ASAP, and was now unaccountably invested in eloping immediately. I mean, maybe he would have gone through with the elopement anyway, but it wouldn't be an especially likely outcome--and if he did, it would kind of be on his own head.

There's also, as I raised before, the matter of consequences for Colin. If, despite all of Pen's legitimate efforts--telling him directly when she gave him the hints, going to the home that night and speaking either to Colin directly or to Eloise--he still wound up eloping with Marina, it isn't like he was facing execution. He was going to wind up married to an attractive woman who was fond of him and would have tried, after the initial betrayal, to be a decent wife. Of course the discovery of the betrayal would have been incredibly painful to him, but unlike a woman of the day, even if he couldn't find a measure of forgiveness in time (which would have been understandable), he would still have had the option of forging ahead with whatever non-domestic pursuits interested him--including extramarital affairs, if he chose. Yes, being legally tied to Marina and her child would have prohibited him from finding true domestic happiness elsewhere, in that case--but he could otherwise set up a separate existence. In the context of a society in which people were regularly making marriages of convenience, and were at best making love-matches based on minimal acquaintance with their partners, it isn't exactly a horrifying fate. 

It is a matter of proportion. What Marina was doing to Colin was bad enough that Colin had a right to know, even though exposing her secret to the Bridgertons and scuttling the match would have had devastating consequences for Marina even without the added element of public exposure. But to me, the consequences weren't so woefully dire that it excuses exposing her publicly simply because that was definitely going to prevent the marriage and other measures were only probably going to prevent the marriage.

That being said, I actually do think the exposure of Marina, while wrong, is potentially forgivable; what is more serious to me is the mere fact of Pen being so thoroughly deceitful and unkind to others.

[Callietwo]

Spoiler

If the book didn't out Pen to be Lady Whistledown, I'd wonder if that last scene with Penelope was what we thought it meant because

the very first episode of the season has the narrator saying something to the affect that we don't know who LW is and never would.  

Edited February 17, 2021 by Callietwo
missing words don't help!