All Creatures Great And Small (2021) - General Discussion

[Daff]

41 minutes ago, Llywela said:

It was more affordable then than now! Would definitely have been a struggle but doable, especially with only one child. My very working class great-grandparents sent two out of seven children to university (those that didn't get to go did help, though, but then again James's parents weren't also raising other children).  Those sort of very respectable parents would have sacrificed a lot to give their child a better chance in life than they had. 

Over the past two seasons I’ve had the impression that the parents’ situation was not always quite so dire. That the tough times are more recent, brought about by a declining economic situation and partially by Dad’s being older. With fewer jobs available, they’re likely to go to younger, stronger lads who may just settle for lower pay. 

[Llywela]

8 minutes ago, Daff said:

Over the past two seasons I’ve had the impression that the parents’ situation was not always quite so dire. That the tough times are more recent, brought about by a declining economic situation and partially by Dad’s being older. With fewer jobs available, they’re likely to go to younger, stronger lads who may just settle for lower pay. 

Yep, I would imagine that Mr Herriot worked pretty steadily while James was growing up, and only in more recent years has he found it more of a struggle to be taken on. Not that they would ever have had much; dock labouring was not a lucrative profession. James has only just finished university, though, so the harder times probably hit while he was studying, but they would never have dreamed of asking him to give up his education no matter how much they were struggling.

All of which also, of course, plays into James's guilt over choosing Yorkshire over Glasgow. He knows exactly how much his parents sacrificed for him to follow his dream.

It is all very familiar to me from my own family history - most of my forebears were sea men and dock workers, boiler makers, and the like, working around a busy industrial port. My one great-grandfather started work as a rope maker when he was only six years old, barely had any education at all, because there was a large family and the wage was needed more. He was taken on at the dry dock as soon as he was officially old enough (around 14) and he laboured there until he was forced into early 'retirement' because the chemicals had damaged his lungs so badly. The only break he had from that work was the few years he spent in Africa during the war. Then on 'retirement' he took up chimney sweeping, which was no better for his lungs, because he still couldn't afford to not work. My mum, who lived with him as a child, remembers being taken to the docks to visit him at work. They were very like the Herriots, in fact. The same kind of fiercely respectable working class family, poor as church mice but determined their children would have greater opportunities than them; my granddad ended up apprenticed to an electrician, instead of following in his father's footsteps. Generous, too, with what little they had - they raised three children of their own, took in a disabled niece who was rejected by her mother, took in their granddaughter (my mother) when her mother died. All with barely two pennies to rub together, half the time. My mum remembers being taken shopping as a child in the early 60s scouring the streets for pennies other people had dropped - those scavenged pennies often paid for half the groceries!

The Herriot family circumstances in the 1930s would not have been far removed from my great-granddad's family.

[laredhead]

I loved this Christmas episode.  A little bit of everything for most fans of the show. 

I liked Tristan sitting unnoticed in the corner of the kitchen while Mrs. Hall and the clock man were talking after the party.  So, when was Siegfried going to Diana's for a nightcap?  After the party on Christmas Eve, or Christmas night?  I like Diana's character.  I hope she continues to appear in the series.  Loved Siegfried and Mrs. Pumphrey's piano duet, and the wonderful Christmas carol.  I also learned a new term to refer to a tightwad - "tighter than an otter's backside" - LOL.

I don't mind the drawn out underlying story line about the approaching war, because it reflects the true years long buildup to WW2 in Europe, and the fears of the citizens who could remember WW 1 and the destruction and deaths from that war.  

I think I'll rewatch this one tonight.   

Edited February 21, 2022 by laredhead

[Daff]

5 hours ago, Llywela said:

Merry Christmas and Happy Christmas are often used interchangeably. My mum has an old scrapbook with cards and postcards dating back to my great-granddads collection, started in 1905 - I don't have it in front of me to check, but I'm 98% sure that both happy and merry are used, much earlier than you might think. 

In the first 15 minutes, several issues had me scratching my head. Use of language and some of the decorations struck me. If you’re used to watching British productions, your ears and eyes have been acclimated to the differences: happy for merry, ring for call, and visions of a more traditional, saintly Father Christmas rather than the more American vision.  My mind immediately jumped to dreading another freezing attempt by James to drive home on Christmas Day to “call at 5”. The reindeer and striped pole decoration looked more ‘50s-‘60s to me. 
That said, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed these last two episodes! I adored every humorous, heartwarming scene here. It all went by too quickly!
Loved how Helen stood up to the farmers congregated in the kitchen. 
Loved the parallel of Maggie’s sound words on effort in relationship with effort in education. 
Loved how the animals took precedence this episode. 

One last question, though. Does anyone know why Father Christmas (for two Christmas episodes, now) has been receiving children in a tiny space, behind a curtain? Seems a little weird, if not creepy?

[Dehumidifier]

I can't stand Mrs. Hall. Can't run her own life but wants to run everybody else's. Reminds me of the busybody landlady I had in my first apartment.

[AZChristian]

24 minutes ago, laredhead said:

Loved Siegfried and Mrs. Pumphrey's piano duet, and the wonderful Christmas carol. 

I get a kick of watching camera tricks to make actors look like they're playing piano, and how the angle switches to just "their" hands when actual music is being played.

Last night, it looked as though Siegfried and Mrs. Pumphrey were actually playing.  Checked them out.  Both play piano in real life, so I think it was really them!!!  At least they had the fingering correct, even if they dubbed the actual sound.

[Driad]

When they were all at Mrs. P's house, what if someone had called the vets' house with an emergency?  Can we assume that there was a live telephone operator, who could be asked to divert calls to Mrs. P's house?

If the skinflint farmer thought he knew so much more about animals, why did he call the vet?  Maybe he knew that his cow needed medicine that (much to his resentment) only a vet could obtain?

[Dehumidifier]

11 hours ago, Cetacean said:

I can't decide if Trickie Woo is a really porcupine or a giant sized Swiffer.

Is Mrs. Hall still married?

I'll go with Swifter because Mrs. Pumphrey appears to have no household help in her mansion. The dog does the job!

BTW, how come all these years (it appears from things she said) no one in the village ever invited the beloved Mrs. Pumphrey to their house for Christmas dinner?

[izabella]

1 hour ago, laredhead said:

So, when was Siegfried going to Diana's for a nightcap?  After the party on Christmas Eve, or Christmas night? 

Christmas Eve.  Siegfried was about to drive Mrs. Pumphrey home, so he would stop by Diana's place on his way home.

1 minute ago, Dehumidifier said:

I'll go with Swifter because Mrs. Pumphrey appears to have no household help in her mansion. The dog does the job!

I agree with Swiffer!  So cute!

Mrs. Pumphrey does have help, though.  She said that she had given the servants time off because they should be with their families on Christmas.

[Sharpie66]

I guess people calling Skeldale House and not getting an answer would do what people always did before answering machines/services—called back later, or call someone else, since there is at least one other local vet. I don’t remember having an answering machine until I got my first apartment in 1988.

I really like the actress playing Mrs. P, she has some great line deliveries. I particularly liked the way she told Siegfried how kind he’d always been to her.

[Llywela]

5 minutes ago, Sharpie66 said:

I guess people calling Skeldale House and not getting an answer would do what people always did before answering machines/services—called back later, or call someone else, since there is at least one other local vet. I don’t remember having an answering machine until I got my first apartment in 1988.

This. They aren't an emergency service, and aren't actually required to have someone available to answer the phone at all times, although they generally do because a) good for business, and b) they are responsible and caring enough to not want animals to suffer unnecessarily. But, like all other private businesses, they are allowed to close for high days and holidays now and then! Even today, my vet closes over the holidays and if my pet has an emergency at that time, I have to make other arrangements (and pay through the nose for the privilege). 

39 minutes ago, Driad said:

If the skinflint farmer thought he knew so much more about animals, why did he call the vet?  Maybe he knew that his cow needed medicine that (much to his resentment) only a vet could obtain?

Some people are just like that!

[libgirl2]

17 minutes ago, Llywela said:

This. They aren't an emergency service, and aren't actually required to have someone available to answer the phone at all times, although they generally do because a) good for business, and b) they are responsible and caring enough to not want animals to suffer unnecessarily. But, like all other private businesses, they are allowed to close for high days and holidays now and then! Even today, my vet closes over the holidays and if my pet has an emergency at that time, I have to make other arrangements (and pay through the nose for the privilege). 

 

My cat's vet closes on holidays. We have a 24 hour one near our house and spent 5 hours sitting in our car when our cat had gastroenteritis, just like Triki Woo! 

[Blergh]

49 minutes ago, Sharpie66 said:

I guess people calling Skeldale House and not getting an answer would do what people always did before answering machines/services—called back later, or call someone else, since there is at least one other local vet. I don’t remember having an answering machine until I got my first apartment in 1988.

I really like the actress playing Mrs. P, she has some great line deliveries. I particularly liked the way she told Siegfried how kind he’d always been to her.

I also liked the way she  gently held Tricki's front paw and kissed him while he was about to be anesthetized. The performer definitely seemed to truly have affection for her canine colleague beyond what the script called for Mrs. P. to do! BTW, the Season Finale Extra Interviews had the dog's other human colleagues say he was a joy to work with and an amazing professional who, after  flawlessly playing his character as mortally ailing, instantly bounded about as soon as the director said 'Cut!'

[Blergh]

1 hour ago, Driad said:

When they were all at Mrs. P's house, what if someone had called the vets' house with an emergency?  Can we assume that there was a live telephone operator, who could be asked to divert calls to Mrs. P's house?

If the skinflint farmer thought he knew so much more about animals, why did he call the vet?  Maybe he knew that his cow needed medicine that (much to his resentment) only a vet could obtain?

I believe  Darrowby had yet to get dial phones but still relied on an unseen/undepicted live switchboard operator. Hence, if the vets wanted their clients to reach them for Christmas Day emergencies, they COULD have had the operator forward their calls to Pumphrey Manor- yet there WERE some communities which only had a single live operator who would switch the switchboard down for sleeping hours. ..and even major holidays! 

Not only was the skinflint farmer a complainer but he was doing the complaining at a party he was consuming libations within  thrown at the very vets' own house! Good for Helen for standing up for James and calling out the farmer (and not being intimidated via being the only woman in the room while doing so) but too bad at least one of the other guests/fellow farmers didn't call  out his ingratitude and hypocrisy! 

[Dehumidifier]

34 minutes ago, Blergh said:

Not only was the skinflint farmer a complainer but he was doing the complaining at a party he was consuming libations within  thrown at the very vets' own house! Good for Helen for standing up for James and calling out the farmer (and not being intimidated via being the only woman in the room while doing so) but too bad at least one of the other guests/fellow farmers didn't call  out his ingratitude and hypocrisy! 

Was it good? Good for the dog but she violated James' confidence.

[Blergh]

1 minute ago, Dehumidifier said:

Was it good? Good for the dog but she violated James' confidence.

Somehow I don't think James would have believed that Helen did- much less have broken their engagement over it! 

[Dehumidifier]

1 minute ago, Blergh said:

Somehow I don't think James would have believed that Helen did- much less have broken their engagement over it! 

"have broken their engagement over it!" Where did I say that?

A few years of her doing that will make him annoyed. He should be able to talk about his work situations with his wife in confidence, especially in a small community.

[Blergh]

4 minutes ago, Dehumidifier said:

"have broken their engagement over it!" Where did I say that?

A few years of her doing that will make him annoyed. He should be able to talk about his work situations with his wife in confidence, especially in a small community.

Granted, you didn't specifically say that. However, I don't believe that James would have considered her having broken a confidence and/or thought it wrong if it meant the life of another animal got saved from it! 

[Leeds]

Am I the only one who hated this episode?

 

[peacheslatour]

3 minutes ago, Leeds said:

Am I the only one who hated this episode?

 

I didn't hate it but I didn't love it either. They've gotten so far from the books, I'm just telling myself it's about different people.

[Blergh]

OK, I know that the skinflint farmer had summoned James to come ASAP, but much longer would it have taken James to have thrown on a shirt over his pajama top  while he was putting on his de rigeur coat and boots?

I don't know if it meant that they had less faith and/or were more restless than Siegfried  over Tricki but it was interesting that both James and Tristan bounded barefoot downstairs Christmas morning in their pajamas to the exam room where they'd left the ailing Tricki to sleep off the anesthesia while Siegfried himself DID at put on his robe and slippers over said pajamas! 

 

Nice touch for Tristan to hold out his exam results (and especially the glowing grades) to literally render Siegfried speechless. I was afraid they'd have somehow gotten lost in the party when he was trying to re-acquaint himself with the bar maid who's now engaged!

[cinsays]

12 minutes ago, Leeds said:

Am I the only one who hated this episode?

 

I loved it and I think I am glad I never saw the earlier version or read the books and can just enjoy it on its own merits.  I will likely try to read the books once the entire series is over.

[libgirl2]

4 minutes ago, cinsays said:

I loved it and I think I am glad I never saw the earlier version or read the books and can just enjoy it on its own merits.  I will likely try to read the books once the entire series is over.

I feel the same way. I was aware of the older version but never watched it. I loved this episode, I love this show. I like being "in" their world for an hour a week. 

[Daff]

2 hours ago, Driad said:

If the skinflint farmer thought he knew so much more about animals, why did he call the vet?  Maybe he knew that his cow needed medicine that (much to his resentment) only a vet could obtain?

What he knew for sure was the difference in monetary value between an old ewe and a cow! 

[dargosmydaddy]

I liked it overall, but a few things grated. One was Jenny throwing a casual "hell" into her speech (I forget the exact line, but something akin to "it's going to be a hell of a party"), which surely should have drawn an admonishment from Helen.

The other was why the skinflint farmer hid the miraculously improved sheep from James on his second visit. In the book, he was bragging about it the next time James came round-- "Hey, there's the sheep you wanted to put down. Look, she's fine now! You don't know anything!"-- which made sense. I didn't really see the point of the guy hiding it, necessitating Helen's insertion into the story.

Overall I'm not a book purist at all, but occasionally points like this irk me from a storytelling perspective, just because the change seems to weaken the story. Other changes are used to strengthen the story (i.e. the dead budgie story from earlier in the season happened to James in the book, not Tristan, but it worked well to give it to Tristan to tie into the whole truthfulness storyline), so I get those. And I appreciate the fact that show-Siegfried is 50 times more likeable than book-Siegfried. God, book Siegfried drove me nuts with his extreme absentmindedness and contradictions! 

[Cetacean]

27 minutes ago, cinsays said:

I loved it and I think I am glad I never saw the earlier version or read the books and can just enjoy it on its own merits. 

Gosh, me too!  No need to compare things, I can just enjoy what I am watching.  The scenary alone makes it worth the hour, it's stunning.

[Llywela]

41 minutes ago, dargosmydaddy said:

The other was why the skinflint farmer hid the miraculously improved sheep from James on his second visit. In the book, he was bragging about it the next time James came round-- "Hey, there's the sheep you wanted to put down. Look, she's fine now! You don't know anything!"-- which made sense. I didn't really see the point of the guy hiding it, necessitating Helen's insertion into the story.

Facilitating. Facilitating Helen's insertion into the story. Which is exactly why it was written this way - to use the event as a building block in James and Helen's relationship, rather than leaving it standing alone as an amusing anecdote experienced by James alone. This version of the story sees Helen gaining valuable insight into James's work as a vet and standing up for him to her peers, which allows both us and James to understand her feelings for him in more depth. If it was left as something that James alone experienced, we wouldn't have had that. Also, it gave Helen more of a role in the plot for the episode.

It's the difference between a semi-autographical novel structured as a series of anecdotal reminiscences from the life of an individual, and a TV show structured in seasons which requires storylines for everyone in the cast.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Llywela

[magdalene]

2 hours ago, Blergh said:

I also liked the way she  gently held Tricki's front paw and kissed him while he was about to be anesthetized. The performer definitely seemed to truly have affection for her canine colleague beyond what the script called for Mrs. P. to do! BTW, the Season Finale Extra Interviews had the dog's other human colleagues say he was a joy to work with and an amazing professional who, after  flawlessly playing his character as mortally ailing, instantly bounded about as soon as the director said 'Cut!'

I watched that and thought "how charming!" Another season gone by too fast for my taste. I wish we had more episodes. It's such a long wait for season 3.

[Daff]

2 hours ago, Blergh said:

the Season Finale Extra Interviews had the dog's other human colleagues say he was a joy to work with and an amazing professional who, after  flawlessly playing his character as mortally ailing, instantly bounded about as soon as the director said 'Cut!'

Thank you for sharing that, as I can picture it clearly! I’m disgusted, however, that my local chose NOT to air it. Time will tell, but I’m thinking they’ll wait on it till just before the third season airs-to tempt people into donating or purchasing Passport (as they did last time). 

[possibilities]

I did feel that James wanting to keep it a secret that he'd tended to the ewe, and then Helen telling the entire party about it, was a violation of confidence. I understand that it wound up saving Tricki's life, but it did bother me that she felt so free to share that info. I don't know what the answer is, because I also understand the urge to take the farmer down a peg, plus it did wind up providing useful information for the case they were all worried about. 

I feel bad for the Herriot parents. It's another situation where I don't know what the answer should be. James should do what's best for him, but as his parents age, they are going to be increasingly under duress, because there's not a way for them to support themselves as it becomes increasingly hard for them to get work and they have not been able to "save for retirement" on the income they had-- and devoted to tuition for their son. And James is not going to have an easy time inviting them to join him so he can support them, because they aren't suited to the rural life. It's a really sad mess. 

 

[Cetacean]

17 minutes ago, possibilities said:

And James is not going to have an easy time inviting them to join him so he can support them, because they aren't suited to the rural life. It's a really sad mess. 

I am guessing he will send them some part of his wages, if possible.  I doubt he'd let his parents starve or anything.

[Kenzie]

Such a nice episode!

I liked the way the opening animated countryside credits/music had been changed to a snowy landscape to set the scene. And I just loved the use of all the simple Christmas decorations and paper chains and the use of lots of natural evergreen swags, holly and mistletoe.

[peacheslatour]

14 minutes ago, Kenzie said:

Such a nice episode!

I liked the way the opening animated countryside credits/music had been changed to a snowy landscape to set the scene. And I just loved the use of all the simple Christmas decorations and paper chains and the use of lots of natural evergreen swags, holly and mistletoe.

I really liked that too.

[dargosmydaddy]

1 hour ago, Llywela said:

Facilitating. Facilitating Helen's insertion into the story. Which is exactly why it was written this way - to use the event as a building block in James and Helen's relationship, rather than leaving it standing alone as an amusing anecdote experienced by James alone. This version of the story sees Helen gaining valuable insight into James's work as a vet and standing up for him to her peers, which allows both us and James to understand her feelings for him in more depth.

But it still could have worked with the farmer telling off James, and Helen telling off the farmer later on. (Though I guess viewers would have been even more up in arms if Helen chose to speak up after James had the chance to do so himself and didn't.)

I'm also a little unclear whether it was Helen's idea to anesthetize Tricki? The lingering shot we got of her face (like she was having an "aha!" moment), and the fact that she immediately rushed to tell James about the sheep makes me think yes, but at the same time it felt weird that she would be the one coming up with this. Or was it meant to be just that she wanted him to know the truth, and he came up with the idea/ connection to Tricki? 

Regardless, storytelling-wise, it didn't quite work for me.

Other than that, I quite enjoyed everything. I really love this TV-version of all the main characters (as well as characters who weren't really focused on in the books, like Jenny and Mrs. Hall... I actually think those two might be my favorites!).

[laredhead]

I found this article about Seasons 3 & 4, and thought it would be of interest here.

 

https://www.indiewire.com/2022/02/all-creatures-great-and-small-season-2-ending-christmas-episode-1234700569/

 

[howiveaddict]

16 hours ago, possibilities said:

I was surprised to hear Mrs Hall say she's married. I wonder if her husband abandoned her and she chalks it up to his PTSD, but feels an obligation to "be loyal"? Or maybe she just said that because her relationship with Clock Guy seems to totally panic her. It's also possible that she couldn't legally get a divorce, so she's married technically, even though she left him because he was abusive.

 

The only way to get divorced in England then was to have the one of the parties commit adultery.   

[John Potts]

On 2/17/2022 at 8:44 PM, Zella said:

My assumption would be an older vet like Siegfried would be more likely to fall under this exemption than a younger man like Tristan or James.

Not really a Spoiler, but just in case:

Spoiler

From my dim recollection, James volunteers (for the RAF). Siegfried is probably exempt as the owner of a business (that may also be a protected profession as it involves agricultural production). Not sure about Tristan.

 

[Daff]

3 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

God, book Siegfried drove me nuts with his extreme absentmindedness and contradictions! 

I read these fairly young. I’m a female. My perspective was that those traits were all male ego, and purposely written that way to express exactly that frustration. Had to be right, had to be the leader, had to control the practice; and he’d try anything “on” to see if it washed. Hence, the consistent theme of book and two productions: “Confront Siegfried to earn his respect.” I like that the new version doesn’t string us out on that frustration, because it played as it was: era sit-com which gets old quickly. I can understand the books portraying this, but appreciate the new version sparing us. 

[dargosmydaddy]

10 minutes ago, John Potts said:

Not really a Spoiler, but just in case:

Spoiler

My recollection is that Siegfried goes, too, but it's been awhile since I read the books. 

I'm nearly done with my reread of All Things Bright and Beautiful, so I'll have to dive into All Things Wise and Wonderful (aka the war years) next.

Back on the topic of the show, and apropos of nothing (other than that it's mentioned in the article laredhead posted, as well as the behind-the-scenes video last night), it still cracks me up that Trick Woo's actor's name is Derek. 

Edited February 21, 2022 by dargosmydaddy

[libgirl2]

9 minutes ago, dargosmydaddy said:

  Reveal spoiler

My recollection is that Siegfried goes, too, but it's been awhile since I read the books. 

I'm nearly done with my reread of All Things Bright and Beautiful, so I'll have to dive into All Things Wise and Wonderful (aka the war years) next.

Back on the topic of the show, and apropos of nothing (other than that it's mentioned in the article laredhead posted, as well as the behind-the-scenes video last night), it still cracks me up that Trick Woo's actor's name is Derek. 

I had to read that twice because I was like who is Derek? 

[Daff]

1 hour ago, dargosmydaddy said:

Regardless, storytelling-wise, it didn't quite work for me.

This has been presented in other veterinary-themed programs. Just as pain and anxiety can inhibit recovery in humans, it can affect animals as well. Similarly, we saw the case of the dog with wounds from being hit by a car. Both TV versions portrayed recovery from having a cast applied (no broken bones, but the wound was “sealed” for a period of time-remember, NO antibiotics, only sulfa drugs). 

[Daff]

28 minutes ago, dargosmydaddy said:

(other than that it's mentioned in the article laredhead posted, as well as the behind-the-scenes video last night)

Sure, rub it in! 😊 I love all “behind scenes” with the actors. I’ll have to wait a year. 

[magdalene]

2 hours ago, laredhead said:

I found this article about Seasons 3 & 4, and thought it would be of interest here.

 

https://www.indiewire.com/2022/02/all-creatures-great-and-small-season-2-ending-christmas-episode-1234700569/

 

I was happy to read they already have a season 4 renewal.

[Pallas]

The British Matrimonial Causes Act of 1937 added a spouse's desertion or incurable insanity as grounds for divorce, along with adultery. So Mrs. Hall is now free to free herself, should she choose.

[peacheslatour]

Just now, Pallas said:

The British Matrimonial Causes Act of 1937 added a spouse's desertion or incurable insanity as grounds for divorce, along with adultery. So Mrs. Hall is now free to free herself, should she choose.

What about desertion?

[Pallas]

4 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

What about desertion?

Desertion after three years. 

[peacheslatour]

1 minute ago, Pallas said:

Desertion after three years. 

So, how long has Mr. Hall been AWOL?

[dargosmydaddy]

2 hours ago, Daff said:

This has been presented in other veterinary-themed programs. Just as pain and anxiety can inhibit recovery in humans, it can affect animals as well. Similarly, we saw the case of the dog with wounds from being hit by a car. Both TV versions portrayed recovery from having a cast applied (no broken bones, but the wound was “sealed” for a period of time-remember, NO antibiotics, only sulfa drugs). 

No, I was still talking about the guy hiding the sheep not making sense to me from a story perspective, not the actual procedure with Tricki. That, I believed! (Though in the book the doggy patient-- who was not Tricki-- was suffering for much longer before James decided to give it a go, thinking back to his experience with the sheep.)

[Dehumidifier]

It didn't make sense in the first place that the farmer wouldn't notice that James did not drive off immediately.

[HoodlumSheep]

9 hours ago, Leeds said:

Am I the only one who hated this episode?

I found it a bit stressful more than anything. 

Not the most feel-good Christmas episode out there. Still had a few solid moments sprinkled in thru out, though.