S03.E10: Terra Firma (2)

[paulvdb]

Quote

Georgiou uncovers the truth about the plot against her, leading her to a revelation about how deeply her time on the U.S.S. Discovery changed her.

 

[paigow]

This is time-jumping the shark...  Did Pike declare Georgiou MIA when Discovery was "destroyed". So when she shows up again, how will that be explained? Because it will be a different time branch, silly! 

[mrspidey]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

This is time-jumping the shark...  Did Pike declare Georgiou MIA when Discovery was "destroyed". So when she shows up again, how will that be explained? Because it will be a different time branch, silly! 

It's gonna be a Section 31 show. They know how to keep stuff hidden. 

[Stardancer Supreme]

I liked the send-off.  Michelle Yeoh will always be BAE and I look forward to the Section 31 show when it appears. 

I was almost holding my breath when Terran Michael proved to be totally untrustworthy. She was going to meet her end at Emperor Georgiou's hand anyway. Boo to no Jason Issacs cameo with all the talk of Lorca.  Would that time have intersected with the time he was on Prime Discovery in Season 2?

San had to have been her son. That's why she plucked Michael off of her trash heap and made her daughter of the Empire.

I would like to hear more about the Temporal Accords.  It got so bad that the Guardian of Forever had to leave its planet and hide.

Still waiting on Admiral to promote Tilly and I guess Booker will be an associate member of Starfleet.  

Edited December 17, 2020 by Stardancer Supreme

[starri]

I truly did not expect a two-part backdoor pilot to the Section 31 series to end up that enjoyable.  Great work from Yeoh and SMG as both Michaels.  And the Guardian of Forever reveal was great.

1 hour ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

San had to have been her son. That's why she plucked Michael off of her trash heap and made her daughter of the Empire.

She always did seem to have a soft spot for kids. When she helped rescue Voq and L'Rell's baby, she kept making goo-goo faces at him when no one was looking.

[thuganomics85]

Ah, so Carl was actually the Guardian of Forever in the end.  Cool reveal.  I like how they mixed his voice with the one from "The City on the Edge of Forever."

Basically a send-off for Georgiou, and while I do have to hand-wave the majority of the crew being all gushing and emotional during the toast at the end, I thought it worked well enough (plus, I can choose to believe some of them were doing it for Michael's sake.)  I obviously doubt this is the end for her time on Star Trek; wherever it is a potential spin-off or popping in on one of the other Treks; but it worked as a final curtain call for her time on Discovery.  Michelle Yeoh crushed it as always.

Heh, I loved the almost fourth-breaking wall moment with Reno coming back and Stamets being all "Wait, where the hell have you been these past few episodes?!" in response.  I'm understand not using her if the character isn't needed (or Tig Notaro only had a certain amount of availability), but it is amusing that she's still been around this entire time, but just away from any of the cameras!

Hey, Booker actually did read all the manuals and used them as a way to solve something!  Sure, it still involved him doing something unorthodox that led to Admiral Vance giving him and Saru grief over it, but whatever works.  Starfleet suits him!

Not sure if it means anything that in the end, the only regular "Prime" crew members to remain loyal to Georgiou were Tilly and Owosekun, while everyone else was Team Michael Prime (although I'm sure Prime Detmer really regretted her choice at the end!)  Oh, and Prime Saru, but that made sense since she was the only one to actually treat him more than a slave or dinner.

 

[crazymadness]

I'm confused.  They traveled to the Gamma Quadrant to that planet and yet they were able to talk to Star Fleet and the ship in the nebula.  I thought the subspace relays where destroyed so how could they do that?  I thought they had trouble talking even close range without those?  Wasn't that a plot point earlier in the season?  Even discounting Book's Emerald Chain device, that seems unlikely from the complete other side of the Galaxy doesn't it?

Also, I seriously doubt the Section 31 show will happen.  I mean CBS All-Access seems to be collapsing and there's already 4 Star Trek shows in production and rumors that Discovery and Picard are moving over to Netflix even in the US.  It just doesn't seem likely that a 5th concurrent Star Trek show will be financed.

[dwmarch]

Giving the Guardian of Forever a face and personality seems like a bit of a stretch but Harlan Ellison is dead so at least we won't have to hear what he thinks of it. I wish it had been a little clearer as to how the whole thing worked. The GoF can transplant itself from one planet to another one across an impressive distance but doesn't seem to have much else in its arsenal aside from ambiguous comments directed at temporal trespassers. "Don't screw it up or you're going to have to fix it" is not how I remember things working either. McCoy broke the past and Kirk and Spock fixed it. The Guardian didn't seem to care much either way. I suppose it is called "Guardian" for a reason but thus far it's more of a mall cop than a Navy SEAL.

Mirror Detmer got to rock the leather pants! Between those and her eye makeup she looked gorgeous and I was sad when she got stabbed. I got a laugh out of Prime Detmer lusting after Georgiou's coat and boots. You know Kayla, those are probably just sitting in her quarters gathering dust now. She'd want a fellow badass to have them and Michael cries too much to qualify.

Speaking of stab wounds, Georgiou would have lived at least a bit longer if she hadn't taken the dagger out of her neck. You'd think a universe fully of stabby people who get stabbed regularly would know first aid 101. If you get perforated by an object, leave the object where it is so you do not bleed out while waiting for help to arrive. Also, it seems that gold armor on the Mirror Universe uniforms is purely for show because you can stab right through it. We have fabrics today that are resistant to piercing damage but I guess the Mirror Universe doesn't get theirs.

That thing where Mirror folks are sensitive to bright lights seems to have been mostly forgotten as well.

Book's solution to the communication problem was basically to install a wi-fi extender and Admiral Vance played the role of the corporate IT guy who tells the employees they aren't allowed to use their own devices on the company network. Although in this case I am sure the Admiral's paranoia is justified and the device will turn out to have a vulnerability that the Emerald Chain can exploit.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, dwmarch said:

Although in this case I am sure the Admiral's paranoia is justified and the device will turn out to have a vulnerability that the Emerald Chain can exploit.

Book guaranteed it contained no malware and was the premium ad-free version.... 

[KimberStormer]

They also did the "mirror credits" (upside down and inverted colors) in Season 1, right?  That's fun.  I think "Georgiou slowly realizing that Mirror Michael actually sucks" was a really good plot and I can't accuse them of not taking enough time over it, but still, Mirror Michael sucked so bad that it wasn't very powerful or anything.  Like, she was never convincing at all in her contrite act, to the point that I was disappointed Georgiou didn't go, like "well, I implanted a bomb in your body while you were asleep and now you blow up" or something when she finally tried to kill her in the brig.  Not having been totally fooled and having a Secret Saru in her back pocket was good but still, not as badass as I would have liked -- just like in the first episode when she was facing that dude and her plan was "survive getting shot".  As often on this show, the idea of Empress Georgiou's whole arc was good, but the execution left something to be desired.  At least she got a better send-off than Admiral Cornwall did.

I do wish she could have told Saru that he does not suck in any universe.  And I do wish that someone could ever leave the show without first telling Michael how amazing she is.

Enjoyed the Stamets/Adira/Reno/Book scene.  Book the token straight friend!  And he actually read the manuals!  Would have been nice if Reno got to do something, but at least we got to tease her about not being in several episodes.  With this team on the case, we'll solve the extremely uninteresting Mystery of The Burn in no time.

[ottoDbusdriver]

I can't believe we wasted 2 episodes just so Philippa could reflect on her life choices and then exit stage left to parts/times unknown.

Though it was worth if just to see Paul Guilfoyle as the Guardian of Forever.

[GustavMahler]

I cannot explain it, but the Guardian scenes and his portrayal, just kept giving me a Doctor Who vibe.... 

[Stardancer Supreme]

One nitpick: Where was Linus at the wake?  Was he still shedding and banned from the dining hall? 

[marinw]

The GoF reminded me of the Good Place Finale. "Whenever you're ready." So I guess the GoF can cross universes now?

Why isnt Stafleet trying to make more Mushroom Drives? Was that explained?

[LittleIggy]

So nice that Mary Sue Burnham got her weekly tongue bath. 🙄 I cheered when Mirror Burnham got run through. It’s the closest thing I’ll ever get to...

Why did they say Phillipa was deceased? 
I’m through with Discovery now. I’ll miss Doug Jones’ Saru, but I can’t take anymore of the “Burnham is the most incredible person ever” show

Edited December 19, 2020 by LittleIggy

[Ottis]

Loved the Guardian reveal. Knew Mirror Michael would suck, wish the show would have said more about some things being fated regardless of attempts to change them.

I have greatly enjoyed this season. It feels like Star Trek again. Though we need a “crew discovers planet and local issue” ep or two. Not everything should be the weighty stuff. 

[jcin617]

16 hours ago, marinw said:

Why isnt Stafleet trying to make more Mushroom Drives? Was that explained?

A spore drive needs a biological navigator, and Stamets is the only compatible person (so far).

Edited December 19, 2020 by jcin617

[paigow]

16 hours ago, marinw said:

Why isnt Stafleet trying to make more Mushroom Drives? Was that explained?

[Interior: TOS!Enterprise Conference Room]

Scotty: Starfleet wants to grow mushrooms in MY engine room??!!

Kirk: Apparently so. Spock, what do you think?

Spock: If memory serves, a prototype ship with this drive exploded 10 years ago.

Kirk: Mr. Sulu, set a course for The Neutral Zone, maximum warp...Go to Red Alert!

[Lebanna]

So I guess the page of Carl’s newspaper last week really was the clue to his identity that I thought it was. It’s really lovely to have a connection with one of my favorite ever episodes of Star Trek. 
 

They’re going to have to make a ‘Star Trek: Temporal War’ series in a few years, aren’t they?  I would watch that. I never even hated Crewman Daniels as much as some people did. Perhaps Admiral Janeway could be in it, popping migraine pills all the way.

I had come to really enjoy Phillipa’s weird ways, although I doubt most of the crew would miss her. I think Burnham was probably the only one who really liked her. Everyone else was probably just being nice. 

I mean, Saru was certainly very quick to declare her dead, with a bit too much relief. (Of course, from their future based perspective, everyone they ever met is dead).

Edited December 19, 2020 by Lebanna

[Chyromaniac]

Really Reno?  Black licorice?  Now I kind of suspect she might be Terran, because I can’t believe anyone from this universe would willingly choose that as a snack.

I am happy for Emperor Phillipa for the growth she has shown over these past two-ish seasons.  And really, it’s kind of a testament to the values and principles of this crew (and by reflection Starfleet, the Federation, and -on a meta level- Star Trek itself) that they have effectively reformed the ruler of an oppressive fascist government into an actual human being.  Good for her, and good for them for being such a positive influence.

Still, I felt like the ending of the episode- both Michael’s goodbye to Phillipa and the crew salute- were laying it on a bit thick.  With the crew, there at least were a couple of moments where they acknowledged how difficult she had been.  And I understand their wanting to celebrate someone who had, at least nominally, helped them save the universe twice.  However- “You are my Phillipa”?  No, Michael...

I would have been okay with ‘you were both my Phillipa.’  That at least would signify that there was a difference between this woman, and the Captain who was her mentor on board the Shenzhou.  Instead, I feel like Michael wants to pretend that they are somehow the same person.  Perhaps deep down she feels like if this Phillipa exists, then she can pretend that other version wasn’t killed on the Klingon ship.  But I feel that kind of does a disservice to our Prime Georgiou.  She deserves to be remembered for who she was- not just as Part 1 of Michael’s Phillipa construct.  

[wanderingstar]

I full-on screamed when Carl intoned "I am the Guardian of Forever."

Beautiful sendoff for Georgiou. I teared up when she said goodbye to Michael. Michelle Yeoh - I stand in awe.

Quote

Boo to no Jason Issacs cameo with all the talk of Lorca.

I was a little disappointed that we didn't actually see Lorca. I really liked that character. 

I continue to covet the ladies' makeup in the Mirror Universe.

 

 

[Frozendiva]

I was suspecting that Carl was somehow tied to the Guardian of Forever. The newspaper he was holding was the main clue. The City on the Edge of Forever had the newspaper on the newsreels that would be seen on the 'door' and on Spock's tricorder recording. The two very different fates. The stakes were also much higher in the original version.  I also squealed at the revelation and that the Guardian can move to wherever he likes and probably appear as whoever he wants to be.

Nice send-off for Georgiou. She left with honor and a bit of humanity.  She was kind to the Kelpian. Hope she shows up again. The end toasting was laying it on a bit thick. Her clothing can go to whichever crew member wants it and fits it.

The Burnham being the most amazing person in the universe is getting a little tiring. Show, please maybe give some other characters a time to shine. I also cheered with the Prime Burnham was killed.

I agree with the poster who talked about all of the knives and stabbing on the Prime Universe. Surely they would have invented uniforms that would be knife-proof. Unless there is an awful lot of slaves who can be recruited in to crew service.

[Llywela]

I suppose the thing about Lorca is...he kind of had to be mentioned a lot in this two-parter, because he was such an integral part of the Terran political scene at the time. But actually having him appear in the two episodes would have distracted from Philippa's story. Which is probably a big part of why he was kept off-screen. That and, presumably, Jason Isaac's availability.

[starri]

4 hours ago, Llywela said:

But actually having him appear in the two episodes would have distracted from Philippa's story. Which is probably a big part of why he was kept off-screen. That and, presumably, Jason Isaac's availability.

I completely agree with this.  Lorca may have been the focal point in the plot against her, but there was no connection between the two.  Much more fulfilling to see how she had changed against Michael and particularly Saru.

Man, those scenes with him just got to me.

I understand the comment about how we're just supposed to accept that Space Hitler's Heart Grew Three Sizes That Day, but honestly, we see from jump that some of the Terran Empire people--Spock, T'Pol, Smiley--are capable of being so much more.

[Chyromaniac]

8 hours ago, Llywela said:

I suppose the thing about Lorca is...he kind of had to be mentioned a lot in this two-parter, because he was such an integral part of the Terran political scene at the time. But actually having him appear in the two episodes would have distracted from Philippa's story. Which is probably a big part of why he was kept off-screen. That and, presumably, Jason Isaac's availability.

Yeah, I feel conflicted.  It seems like he should have been there, given how much he was mentioned over these past two shows.  But I also struggle to decide where he could be added in, and not detract from the existing story.  The only idea I can think of, is that it could have been him in the shuttle instead of Duggan.  I’d almost suggest that that part was actually intended to be Lorca, but Isaacs just couldn’t be there for whatever reason.

[Joimiaroxeu]

So was the Agonizer supposed to be some kind of space version of electroshock therapy or was it just straight up torture?

Terran Michael was savage. (Almost over-the-top so, IMO.) But it seems to me she should have offed herself too as one of the co-conspirators. Or at least offered.

When it pays to RTFM. I'm glad they're letting Book stick around since he's proven himself even more useful.

Count me in as one who was mad Lorca didn't make an appearance. I felt teased. Even if the actor wasn't available there must've been some old unused footage of Lorca they could've spliced in.

Quote

Admiral Vance played the role of the corporate IT guy who tells the employees they aren't allowed to use their own devices on the company network.

Now I don't feel so bad that as a former systems analyst I read the scene exactly like that. 🤗

Quote

can’t take anymore of the “Burnham is the most incredible person ever” show

Yeah, this is getting close to the situation that made me drop Law & Order: SVU. I can't even stand to watch the earlier seasons in syndication because they remind me of how good it was before it was turned into the Olivia Benson Hour. I doubt ST: Discovery will ever get that bad though. <fingers and toes crossed>.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Joimiaroxeu

[tennisgurl]

This was a nice send off for Georgiou, at least for Discovery. See you in the Section 31 show! It was also probably the last time we will see the Mirror for awhile, especially considering almost all of the Mirror counterparts to our characters are dead, and while the franchise can overuse the Mirror Universe sometimes, I do always love stopping by watch the cast get to wear tons of black and eyeliner and see who can ham it up the most. As far as backdoor plots go, this was a pretty good one, especially as it was all about Georgiou and how she gets back to the past again, I will miss her on the show but this was a good way to send her off. I figured that she would have to kill Mirror Michael, Mirror Michael is a murder happy psycho even by Mirror Universe standards, so that was always how it was going to send for her. 

Nice seeing Book fitting in more with the rest of the cast, he even read the manual and used stuff from it, even if he did end up using a more out of the box solution to save the day. Which is pretty classic Starfleet, especially. 

Carl being the Guardian of Time was a really cool reveal, I really liked how they mixed his voice in with the Guardian of Time from City on the Edge of Forever. I am really curious about how he went into hiding during the temporal wars, how people kept finding him, and what he is up to now. Is this just what he does now, finds people stuck in different times and universes and helps them out? I was getting a very Doctor Who vibe from Carl, I would be happy to see him again. 

[Quilt Fairy]

Black licorice (ugh!) aside, this was a total waste of Tig Notaro.  Why even bother to bring her in for half a dozen lines in two scenes?  I have been kind of confused about where Reno could logically have been; the area with the spore drive is the engineering section, right?  So, as an engineer, she should be there with Stamets and Tilly, shouldn't she? Or is there another, standard dilithium-driven engine somewhere else on the ship?

I think this story could easily have been told in one episode.   To drag it out over two episodes in a 13 episode season seems a waste, unless the writers are really stumped as to where "The Burn" story arc should go. 

[LittleIggy]

23 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Yeah, this is getting close to the situation that made me drop Law & Order: SVU. I can't even stand to watch the earlier seasons in syndication because they remind me of how good it was before it was turned into the Olivia Benson Hour. I doubt ST: Discovery will ever get that bad though. <fingers and toes crossed>.

I think it has gotten that bad (I quit SVU because of St. Olivia too). That’s why I’m done with the show.

[paigow]

6 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

That’s why I’m done with the show.

aka Famous Last Words of Lizzy Keen

[LittleIggy]

6 hours ago, paigow said:

aka Famous Last Words of Lizzy Keen

I have no idea what that reference is to.

[paigow]

23 minutes ago, LittleIggy said:

I have no idea what that reference is to.

Thought you were a Blacklist hate-watcher

[LittleIggy]

11 hours ago, paigow said:

Thought you were a Blacklist hate-watcher

Nope. Quit watching that show years ago. 

[LJones41]

The level of hamminess in this two-parter was mind boggling.  It made me miss the better writing of Season One.  You know, if the franchise's show runner had allowed Georgiou to remain in the 23rd century, I would have been spared of this convoluted writing.