S32.E08: Are You a Rickshaw?/S32.E09: This is Not Payback. This is Karma

[Netfoot]

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

I wondered in the first episode whether "software engineer" was just a fancy pants term for "computer programmer", and apparently it is.

Actually... Since I am (or was) one of which you speak...

Software Engineers participate in more aspects of the production of software than only programming. Software engineers can also be a part of the systems analysis, software design, and documentation, and (usually after the fact) training, testing and maintenance. On one project, I was a part of, the software engineers even developed coding standards for the programmers.

A "computer programmer" (or informally, I prefer "code cutter") implements the design in code.

A software engineer might actually hire a "computer programmer" to do the "easy" part, while concentrating on the other phases of the project. But many software engineers (like myself, for instance) prefer to get hands-on with the code, and thereby participate in all the various aspects of the project.

[Guest]

On 11/27/2020 at 10:50 AM, vousviou said:

Except if you are a strong team, you want the weakest pool possible in the last day.  There is no bonus for coming in second, and in the final day you really want to have at least one team in the mix with lousy navigation skills, poor attention to detail, or at least one other major flaw.

Sure, but none of the alliance teams are strong enough to play that strategy successfully. They lucked out to be on a season with a overall weak group.

19 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

The alliance was formed at the very beginning, right? So there was no way to gauge who was a strong or weak team yet, it was just based on personality and who liked who. It may be a coincidence that the stronger teams ended up in the alliance. Or maybe they’re not really the stronger teams, they just got more help. As was noted about the Blondes, we really don’t know how any of these teams are as racers. We just know they are good at copying each others’ answers. If this were high school, they’d all get A’s, but none of them would be earned.

It was formed in the second episode. It was the first 5 teams to make it to the mine with yields and signed up for the first departure time. Originally it was just to maintain their lead over the second group. 

15 hours ago, sinycalone said:

Will and James are major fans of TAR.  They have watched each season....so where did they get the idea that a big alliance was a good idea.  The only other "big" alliance I can recall was the 6-pack, which became the backpack....and it failed miserably.  At first, it kind of made sense for the weaker teams on that season to help each other...then it became absurd.  The mine 5 was definitely Big-Brother related rather than TAR.

I’m a major fan of TAR who has watched every season and if I was ever on the show I would lean towards alliances. Not because I think it’s a great strategy but because I know my own weaknesses. I can’t imagine Will and James were delusional enough to thing they were going to be a traditional strong team. They went with a realistic strategy and it has paid off so far. 

Edited November 29, 2020 by Guest

[sinycalone]

I can recall quite a few instances of the other teams in the Alliance helping W/J ....but really don't remember any direct help they provided to the other teams.  And, of course, Leo helped them.

[Hera]

5 hours ago, blackwing said:

11 hours ago, SVNBob said:

However, in another TH/Mat Chat/other interview segment from before the megaleg, apparently they expressed concern about a TAR curse I'd never heard of.  The curse apparently says that if there is a leg where one and only one team speaks the local language, that team will not win the Race.  (We might have seen this curse in action with Leo and Alana, since he was the only Racer that spoke either Russian or Kazakh).   So, because of this curse, they were at least jokingly worried about the possibility of a leg in India.

I'm pretty sure that Tammy and Victor (I forget the exact season, maybe 15ish?) were the only ones who spoke Mandarin.  They used their Mandarin language skills to extreme advantage in the legs in China, and they ended up winning.  So I think any so-called "language curse" is a creation in their own mind, just like how they think they are extremely brilliant.

BJ and Tyler also won the race on a season that included a leg in Japan (Tyler was the only one that season who was spoke Japanese). I agree, this "curse" is nonsense, and even if it did exist, it's debatable whether it would apply to Eswar and Aparna.

Edited November 28, 2020 by Hera
Clarifying a sentence.

[Quilt Fairy]

On 11/27/2020 at 3:52 AM, 30 Helens said:

To me, the most grating thing about Eswar & Aparna is not the constant reminder that they are software engineers. It’s the constant use of the term “software engineer”. It’s a real title, but it’s a little formal for casual conversation. The people I know in the field (including the one I live with) refer to themselves as Programmers, or if they’re being self-deprecating, Coder Monkeys. Software Engineer is for resumes. It’s like calling yourself a Waste Management Engineer when you’re a trash collector, or a Sandwich Technician when you work at freakin’ Subway.

Good grief, yes!  In this episode they mentioned that what they do is "write code all day".  Well, I wrote code all day for 13 years, and my title was Programmer/Analyst.

[Fretful]

Alliances have been around a long time (Oh, Brother and the Twins had one on season 3), and can serve teams well.  I don't think it makes sense for the producers to limit the help teams can give each other on most tasks.  We've often seen teams work together to get through a task together, and I think it adds an interesting dynamic to the game.

There have been bigger alliances (again, season 3 and the Twin Hunt, or season Lyn and Karlyn who complained about having to wait around for other alliance members before driving off).  I think the difference is that this is the 1st time the editing made it the center of the show- every episode focused on the alliance.  I think that is a producer problem.

 

As for Will and James- I liked William a lot on ANTM, and I think they're both probably decent guys-as someone mentioned, they haven't really degraded any other players.  James just seems a bit whiny, so they come off as bad sports.

[ByaNose]

46 minutes ago, Fretful said:

Alliances have been around a long time (Oh, Brother and the Twins had one on season 3), and can serve teams well.  I don't think it makes sense for the producers to limit the help teams can give each other on most tasks.  We've often seen teams work together to get through a task together, and I think it adds an interesting dynamic to the game.

There have been bigger alliances (again, season 3 and the Twin Hunt, or season Lyn and Karlyn who complained about having to wait around for other alliance members before driving off).  I think the difference is that this is the 1st time the editing made it the center of the show- every episode focused on the alliance.  I think that is a producer problem.

 

As for Will and James- I liked William a lot on ANTM, and I think they're both probably decent guys-as someone mentioned, they haven't really degraded any other players.  James just seems a bit whiny, so they come off as bad sports.

It’s funny. I don’t find James whiny as much as mean and sneaky. It’s all a game and it’s not Amazing Friends blah, blah, blah! I can’t even take hIm off the show about how they all love each other and we’re all friends blah, blah, blah. I guess I just can’t move with my dislike of him. He (Will, too) have sort of ruined the season for me. Granted, their are others in the alliance but the editors seem to be showing it from their vantage point which isn’t fun to watch. The others may have been acting the same way but their responses were either left out or they’re glee wasn’t as strong as Will & James. IMO!!!

[sinycalone]

1 hour ago, ByaNose said:

It’s funny. I don’t find James whiny as much as mean and sneaky. It’s all a game and it’s not Amazing Friends blah, blah, blah! I can’t even take hIm off the show about how they all love each other and we’re all friends blah, blah, blah. I guess I just can’t move with my dislike of him. He (Will, too) have sort of ruined the season for me. Granted, their are others in the alliance but the editors seem to be showing it from their vantage point which isn’t fun to watch. The others may have been acting the same way but their responses were either left out or they’re glee wasn’t as strong as Will & James. IMO!!!

They are such friends....but after they "drop" the NFLers from their grand alliance....James has no problem asking  Gary for help with the turban task.  I'd say he's mean, sneaky...and devious.  Will matches him.

[sara416]

On 11/25/2020 at 8:33 PM, TiredMe said:

If I had to fit someone with dentures, it would be difficult not to self eliminate. I don’t know how dental hygienists do it. Props

Yep. My mom was a dental hygienist and I have had a ton of dental work in my lifetime. That task was my nightmare. 

 

[HawaiiTVGuy]

On 11/25/2020 at 4:11 PM, Grizzly said:

No real reason for Will and James to yield anyone. They are just miserable people.

Not only that, but for James to decide not to help Gary after Gary saved his ass in the matching roadblock was pretty much being an ass.  I can kind of tell where all the other teams in the alliance felt that G and D weren't contributing, but right after being saved by Gary you go and purposely cut him out of helping later?!   That is the only team I am rooting against.  They come off as manipulative and conniving.  I am bummed the Blinds didn't survive, they were not the best racers but they certainly seemed pleasant.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, sinycalone said:

I can recall quite a few instances of the other teams in the Alliance helping W/J ....but really don't remember any direct help they provided to the other teams.  And, of course, Leo helped them.

They’ve helped the others a few times that I remember. In this episode James told Hung the trick with measuring the place settings. In leg 3 the beards were missing an item from the market and James told them what they were missing. There was another leg where they got to the airport first and printed out maps for the rest of the alliance. In the Yurt challenge they told the beards to get the head. 

I really don’t consider what Leo did to be help. He moved them out of the way. Will and James still had to figure out how to drive the car on their own. 

[sinycalone]

 

3 hours ago, Dani said:

They’ve helped the others a few times that I remember. In this episode James told Hung the trick with measuring the place settings. In leg 3 the beards were missing an item from the market and James told them what they were missing. There was another leg where they got to the airport first and printed out maps for the rest of the alliance. In the Yurt challenge they told the beards to get the head. 

I really don’t consider what Leo did to be help. He moved them out of the way. Will and James still had to figure out how to drive the car on their own. 

The BF told Hung after he had been alerted by the Bro about the measuring.  At that market, everyone seemed to pitch in and offer assistance (in Manaus).  The map idea was kind of strange....not really all that helpful...but it was a try to aid the alliance.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, sinycalone said:

The BF told Hung after he had been alerted by the Bro about the measuring.

That seems likely but we never see Riley talking to Hung during the roadblock. She has barely started when Riley leaves. 

3 minutes ago, sinycalone said:

At that market, everyone seemed to pitch in and offer assistance (in Manaus).

It wasn’t in the market but after when they showed the items to the judge. The Beards were told they didn’t have everything and James whispered to them what they were missing. 

5 minutes ago, sinycalone said:

The map idea was kind of strange....not really all that helpful...but it was a try to aid the alliance.

A map is a strange city isn’t helpful?

I may have misread your post to say they didn’t help any of the teams. Why would they help non-alliance teams? Wouldn’t that defeat the purpose of an alliance? I can’t remember any non-alliance teams helping Will and James. I don’t count Leo because that was more self-preservation and really didn’t benefit W&J. 

[sinycalone]

My pronouns in my first paragraph may have confused you....I meant the BF told Hung after the BF had been alerted by the Bro.

I did not mean that W/J should have assisted teams not in the alliance ....just that they never provided much help to the Mine 5 in reality.  The maps turned out to be pointless at the start of that leg...but it was an attempt to help the alliance..  Inside the market in Manaus all the alliance were shouting out directions and pointers to each other.  Yes, James did help at the table.

I just think overall W/J have benefited far more than any other team in the alliance.

[Netfoot]

35 minutes ago, sinycalone said:

I just think overall W/J have benefited far more than any other team in the alliance.

I'm not thinking about who benefited from the alliance. I'm thinking about who was blighted by it.  Specifically, me.

I have no problems with one team throwing another a bone now and again. Such as one team telling another to hook up a truck horn.

But when half of the teams decide to form an alliance that helps those teams exclusively, and then actively "gangs up" on other teams to get them eliminated, it is detrimental to the race. It spoils the spontaneity of the show. It ruins the suspense. Is there anyone who didn't know going in to the two-episode "megaleg", that the outcome was a foregone conclusion? So, two episodes of the race (which is only 12 episodes long to begin with), were completely ruined from the viewer's perspective.

I've watched every episode of TAR ever produced, many of them several times. I do it for enjoyment and entertainment. And TPTB film and air the show specifically so I will enjoy it and be entertained by it. Because if their audience (Meaning me and people like me. But mostly me.) stops enjoying and being entertained, they are out of business. So they need to take this in hand and prevent race-destroying alliances from occurring.

[biakbiak]

1 hour ago, sinycalone said:

I meant the BF told Hung after the BF had been alerted by the Bro.

 

The bro never got a chance to tell him. James figured it out before they were alone and interestingly said he wasn’t going to tell anyone including the bro but then Gary left the room and the bro noticed he had the ruler and the bro told him he was planning on telling him just didn’t want Gary to know to which James agreed to but as noted it was a stupid thing to keep from Gary because it was obvious during judging.

[Kel Varnsen]

Like many others I am super tired of the alliance thing. I don't really have a problem with alliances in general, but it is like these teams watched the first couple of episodes of any given Survivor season and thought that alliance was a great idea. But they never watched to the end of a season so they don't realize that being on the bottom of an alliance is bad, as is going into the finals in an alliance with someone that could easily beat you.

Plus all these alliance teams need to stop talking about how proud they are of their alliance and how brilliant they are for thinking it up. It's not like you are Richard Hatch and you invented the reality show alliance. Your not even the first race contestants to use it, so just shut up.

[eel21788]

On 11/27/2020 at 3:58 PM, shura said:

I took it that they simply couldn’t believe that he is telling them to cross right there in busy traffic and tried to ask him where the “normal” crossing was (“Do we go through that gate, is that where we cross?”).  To which he was like, no, this is India, you just cross here.  Only when they (or the show, I suspect) got a policeman to halt the traffic for them were they able to cross comfortably.

I think you and I are watching a different show.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, eel21788 said:

I think you and I are watching a different show.

I feel that way a lot reading this board. Perception varies greatly. 

[Guest]

15 hours ago, eel21788 said:

On 11/27/2020 at 5:58 PM, shura said:

I took it that they simply couldn’t believe that he is telling them to cross right there in busy traffic and tried to ask him where the “normal” crossing was (“Do we go through that gate, is that where we cross?”).  To which he was like, no, this is India, you just cross here.  Only when they (or the show, I suspect) got a policeman to halt the traffic for them were they able to cross comfortably.

I think you and I are watching a different show.

I can buy that explanation. It wasn't even just that the road was busy. At the moment where the "cross the road" conversation was happening, there was a literal fence along the road that they would have had to step over to get across. So I can understand if they were confused by the "cross the road" direction. But if they didn't clearly tell the operator exactly what they were looking at, I can also understand how he was confused by their not being able to cross. We only saw snippets of their conversations, as part of a "the sisters are lost!" montage, so who knows exactly how it played out.

[Bluesky]

Based on the sisters not being part of the alliance, being yielded two or,three times, having to do extra tasks for being last twice, not given answers like the other teams,  they actually were good racers.  

 

I think without the alliance and answers given to them, one or two of those left might have been last. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Bluesky
Messed up

[SVNBob]

In all the talk about the "language curse" (which I didn't think was a thing; unlike Kab Karma, which is absolutely real.), I forgot about the most interesting thing about the megaleg.  And it didn't come from any of the Racers.

When Kaylyn and Hayley were heading to the 2nd Yield point in their carriage with the local couple, one of commented on the woman's sari, saying she thought it was beautiful.  The man (who I presume is the woman's husband) stated that he'd said the same thing when they were getting ready to come out for their role in the Race.  He followed that up by saying (and I'm paraphrasing here) that he also said that he "wished [he] were a woman so that [he] could have worn that sari".

I thought that was a very interesting thing for a middle-aged Indian man to say, even in this day and age.

[Brookside]

On 11/27/2020 at 7:06 PM, BarneySays said:

 

I think this season supplants the family edition as the worst season ever.  Which is really a shame, considering I think it was well-cast (but for the lack of 40+ players, which seems to be the new SOP) and the mega leg is a welcome new twist. It's a shame it was ruined by the slime five.

These two episodes were deadly dull.  The result was pre-ordained and the alliance sapped the two hours of any energy or suspense.  My distaste for these teams has reached peak level.  The beardos repulse.  Hung the Harridan's moments of sweetness just increase my distaste.  Aparna refreshingly showed some personality this week, but they're still a nonentity.  Need I  say anything about the Risibles?  I guess I'm rooting for the football players, only because rooting for leaving the season on the shelf to deprive the winners of their prize money isn't an option.

What's SOP?

Who are the Risibles?

On 11/29/2020 at 1:21 AM, HawaiiTVGuy said:

Not only that, but for James to decide not to help Gary after Gary saved his ass in the matching roadblock was pretty much being an ass.  I can kind of tell where all the other teams in the alliance felt that G and D weren't contributing, but right after being saved by Gary you go and purposely cut him out of helping later?!   That is the only team I am rooting against.  They come off as manipulative and conniving.  I am bummed the Blinds didn't survive, they were not the best racers but they certainly seemed pleasant.

 

"G and D"

"Blinds"?

So much Covid = so much time on my hands.

[Netfoot]

Let me try to help:

• What's SOP? = Standard Operating Procedure
• Who are the Risibles? = Will & Whiny Little Shit.
• "G and D" = DeAngelo & Gary. Only backwards.
• "Blinds"? = Blonds, but with a typo.
• So much Covid = so much time on my hands. = Maybe too much time on your hands! LOL!

[Alice Mudgarden]

On 11/26/2020 at 1:15 PM, blackwing said:

the Beekman Boys (the goat farmers, I forget their names) also won the Race. 

Josh & Brent! Legit, I love their product line. And the way they've put their winnings to use, involving their small town in different ways - using local designers; hiring local workers; having events that bring people into the town, boosting the hospitality of the area - is really wonderful. One of my favorite winning teams.

[Quilt Fairy]

On 11/29/2020 at 1:18 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

But they never watched to the end of a season so they don't realize that being on the bottom of an alliance is bad, as is going into the finals in an alliance with someone that could easily beat you.

This, exactly.  The alliance teams are all competent - well, more than competent, haven't every one of them come in first on at least one leg?  The strategic thing to do is to yield/u-turn the latest or most vulnerable team within that group of good teams.  Hopefully the knives will be out for the last few legs of the season. 

[Balmafula]

Hmm, I suppose that this so-called "megaleg" differed from every previous instance in that it lacked all of the below:

• Hours of Operation (HoO)
• Equalizer en route to a different nation/region/city/etc.
• Prize awarded at halfway point
• Presence of Philiminator and/or the Mat

[Carolina Girl]

Quote

In the very first season of TAR, the gay couple (the Guidos, as they were) were probably the villains of the season.

I remember them attempting to block people from getting on their flight out of Paris?  That and claiming the Frat Brothers were trying to physically initimdate them.

But how many of us LOVED that moment when they opened the clue box in Alaska to be told that Rob and Brennan had just crossed the finish line in New York?  (Saddest part of that ending was Frank and Marguerita not realizing that Rob and Brennan had boarded the train right before theirs and thinking that they were in the lead.....)

[Mallori]

On 11/26/2020 at 7:31 PM, seacliffsal said:

I think the brothers, boyfriends, and Hung/Chee have all talked together and somehow have justified that the NFLers are not helping while taking help because it's just not true but is effective in creating a new target for them once the blondes were eliminated (and a target in which they feel self-righteously justified.  DeAngelo helped with the cello and with informing Hung to even look for letters, Gary helped in this episode with the turbans and columns, and there are probably other examples.  

Sorry for the late comment, but I’ve been binging the episodes over the past few days. 
 

That is exactly what happened. Hung was the first one to bring up the footballers “never helping,” so it’s apparent that she talked to the beards and boyfriends and now they’re parroting it. 
 

I’ve really lost any good feelings towards the beards these last couple episodes. My favorite part (to hate) was at the turban challenge, whichever beard was doing it was looking at a turban on the iPad, Gary comes up behind him and looks, and beard says, “Come on, dude.” Then the very next scene, Eswar (I think that’s how you spell it?) was looking at his iPad, beard comes up behind him the same way Gary did, and then beard goes and tries to steal it from him! GTFO.  
 

At this point, I’m rooting for Gary and DeAngelo and Hung and Chee. 

[valen]

On 12/7/2020 at 11:58 PM, Mallori said:

Sorry for the late comment, but I’ve been binging the episodes over the past few days. 
 

That is exactly what happened. Hung was the first one to bring up the footballers “never helping,” so it’s apparent that she talked to the beards and boyfriends and now they’re parroting it. 
 

I’ve really lost any good feelings towards the beards these last couple episodes. My favorite part (to hate) was at the turban challenge, whichever beard was doing it was looking at a turban on the iPad, Gary comes up behind him and looks, and beard says, “Come on, dude.” Then the very next scene, Eswar (I think that’s how you spell it?) was looking at his iPad, beard comes up behind him the same way Gary did, and then beard goes and tries to steal it from him! GTFO.  
 

At this point, I’m rooting for Gary and DeAngelo and Hung and Chee. 

I find the beard bros to be mean spirited. They haven't had to show it much because they've been consistently in the front of the pack. However, there have been hints of it when talking about G and D.

[snarktini]

On 11/27/2020 at 5:09 PM, DawnDavenport said:

As a patient, those impressions are not fun at all, especially when they have to be taken out. It feels like they are going to pull your teeth out! I can't imagine a having an untrained person do those. It's not like you just fill up a plate full of goo and place it someone's mouth! If you don't take them out the right way, then it can mess up the impression and they have to be redone.

I knocked out a front tooth and had to have an implant placed and I was amazed that they didn't have to use that awful goo anymore. My dentist had some sort of scanner wand that created a 3d computerized image of my mouth and the implant crown fit perfectly! No more goo! 

I was positively SQUIRMING the whole time. I have difficult teeth and need lots of dental work, so normally I'm pretty chill at the dentist -- I'm used to it -- but the impressions are disgusting and terrifying. All that goo creates panic, I feel smothered and I can't breathe. And the feeling. *shudder*

If I ever need that again, I sure as F hope there's a scanner.

On 11/28/2020 at 12:37 AM, SVNBob said:

Most teams aren't trying to create drama.  Will (a former America's Next Top Model contestant) and James kinda are.  Admittedly, while trying to win as well.

He was on ANTM?! His face/bone structure are model-esque.

On 11/28/2020 at 4:13 PM, Fretful said:

Alliances have been around a long time (Oh, Brother and the Twins had one on season 3), and can serve teams well.  I don't think it makes sense for the producers to limit the help teams can give each other on most tasks.  We've often seen teams work together to get through a task together, and I think it adds an interesting dynamic to the game.

There have been bigger alliances (again, season 3 and the Twin Hunt, or season Lyn and Karlyn who complained about having to wait around for other alliance members before driving off).  I think the difference is that this is the 1st time the editing made it the center of the show- every episode focused on the alliance.  I think that is a producer problem.

As for Will and James- I liked William a lot on ANTM, and I think they're both probably decent guys-as someone mentioned, they haven't really degraded any other players.  James just seems a bit whiny, so they come off as bad sports.

This alliance hasn't made a ton of sense to me -- it's gone on far too long and has preserved lots of strong teams. But I also don't think it's helpful for the show to interfere. They could make design changes, like tasks that don't share easily or more separation so it's harder to see what others are doing. I don't think it can be stopped beyond that.

It's definitely the whininess (and the mustache twirling) that makes it hard for me to enjoy James onscreen. The one thing I'll stick up for him on is yielding the blondes. It was unnecessary and I believe teams in the lead shouldn't do it on principle. However, taking them at their word, the intention was to protect Hung and Chee who had fallen behind. I appreciate that he honored his commitment to alliance even if I don't like the alliance.

[Bill1978]

Man, it was tough avoiding this thread. Here in Australia the mega leg was split over 2 weeks. Most of my thoughts have already been discussed but I agree with everybody who thought it was a but silly to have 2 Yields in the megaleg. I get the whole double the tasks mumbo jumbo, but I feel each leg should only have one yield. A yield is not a task and doesn't need to be replicated.

I will miss The Blondes. I don't think I have seen a team that was consistently at the back of the pack and made it this far in the race being any more positive or pleasant to watch. It was abundantly clear they were never gonna win, but it was so nice not to see bickering or whining occurring from those two. Such great positive spirits.

Unlike the Mine Five alliance which has crumbled. Will & James have officially tumbled to the bottom of who I want to win after India (especially after the firt half of the megaleg). Their smugness with how clever they are at 'manipulating' the other Racers has officially gone from ignorable to annoying.  Also getting very tired of James scheming to not reveal answers to others but then leeching answers off his alliance. If I wanted to watch scheming on my reality shows I would still be watching Survivor. Part of the appeal of The Race for me, is that in general people get eliminated because of their own skills or genuine bad luck, not becuase some alliance was formed.

The Beards I am conflicted with, they have moments where I'm thinking they are like W&J but then they stop and show genuine appreciation for what they are seeing. I'll probably put them in 4th Place for who I want to win.

Not sure I could have done the denture choice, but I think it looked like the quicker of the two options.

I always forget how noisy the streets of India are, as I type this I can still hear the beeping.

If you asked me at the start of the race if I would be hoping for the Football Team to be successful on this race I would have laughed at your face. But they have really grown on me over the season and I would not be disappointed if they win.

 

[BluBarbi98]

I really appreciated that when the first sister had communication issues with the Swiggy operator that she didn't freak out and turn ugly American but gave the phone to her sister and they proceeded without drama. They weren't at the top of my "I wish they would win list" but how they handled that situation really increased my admiration for them.